Guest guest Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 This is of course off topic: The statement below does reflect one view, but it is only one of many possible and existing views. For myself, I see (and experience) that humans belong to the Earth, not the other way around. All life has value and meaning, no matter through which form (or species) it is expressed through - and no one more than any other. Also, if we look at the evolution of the Universe and the Earth, humans as we exist today is only part of ONE PHASE of this grand process. We are not the " pinnacle " nor the " end " result. We belong and are part of this vast and beautiful process - together with all other phenomenon, all other expressions of God and this Universe - all other ways God and this Universe expresses itself. No one view is " right " or " wrong " - they only serve as (temporary) guidelines for our experience of the Universe and for our actions. We ourselves choose one that makes sense with our experiences, and that seem to lead to actions beneficial for ourselves and the larger whole. What this has to do with bowel cleanse I do not know, but I do sense that there is a connection. The cosmology of each one of us does in a very real way influence our daily actions - how we live our lives from day to day. Let me know if I should shut up! Be well, Per <<Animal protein was created in the first place for us to use as food by God who created us. I don't think this general principle has changed. What I think has become the problem is that by trying to improve on this, mankind has actually made a situation that does not work as well because he/we do not fully understand all of the biochemical inter-relations that come into play when foreign biochemical entities are introduced into the system (i.e., animal to human biochemical physiology).>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 In a message dated 11/21/99 16:52:47, cmarcus@... writes: << Now, I will agree that some people (the blood type O's for example) do much better on a diet that includes animal proteins, but I believe that they could do much better on one that consisted of a large quantity of high quality amino acids from the vegetable kingdom...enter the green superfoods. >> Yes, let's not forget to allow for individual differences. Several years ago my former husband and I both went to a holistic doctor. I had a protein deficiency (which manifested itself in herpes and chronic fatigue) while he had gout (an accumulation of excess uric acid often mainly due to meat consumption). The funny thing is, he ate less meat than I did. The question of an INTELLIGENT vegetarian diet (based on the high amino acid superfoods) as per vs. an INTELLIGENT meat based diet (low in carbs and based on organic meat) is an intriguing one and one that I doubt will be solved on this list. But it is worth talking about. Although I reintroduced meat into my diet in greater proportion after my months long bout with herpes, which was really HORRIFIC (I have never gotten it again), I have often suspected that a " superfoods " based diet would be even better. However, for me the problem with this has always been honestly in the preparation. I haven't had the time to sprout and juice to the extent necessary, but I am curious to try it. One thing I am reasonably sure of--if you can't do a vegetarian diet really right, you're asking for trouble. Especially those " O " types, or people who are immune-suppressed (like me--I was subjected to intensive antibiotics as a child and it nearly did me in) shouldn't even consider a vegetarian diet without the " superfoods " . They just won't get enough protein. This is something vegans fail to understand although they were coming to my holistic doctor with herpes in droves. Now my ex-husband on the other hand could get amino acids out of anything without even bothering to think of food combinations. He could probably get protein out of a soggy iceberg lettuce and yellow tomato salad in a diner. The so-called " paleo " or caveman diet is very popular now and brings up a point I think we should not lose sight of--that what is " bad " for us in our artificial twentieth century environment was not necessarily always " bad " . This echoes the viewpoint of modern physics--phenoma do not exist as such, but rather in context. You cannot say what something IS, but only how it exists in relationship. (cf " good " bacteria converting necrotic tissue). Obviously the meat and yogurt in the stomach of the Abkhasians living fully active lives to one hundred twenty years old in the Caucasus is something different from what it is in ours. I understand they are very big on lamb and goat. (I think Bernard Jensen's Hunza were similar). This brings up the point of the " Garden of Eden " brought up by . I am not religious in any specific sense and I definitely don't want to get involved in any religious debate, but I do think that there is a type of truth encapsulated in holy books. The Garden of Eden no doubt represents a memory of a purer time when people lived as vegans. (This does not however deny the fact that " cavemen " or " paleolithic " men lived largely by hunting, as we know from their art). But again, what other factors come into play? For example, weather. I have noticed that my body tends to eschew meat in the summer and crave it in the winter. Since I live in New York I am subject to great extremes of weather. Presumably the " Garden of Eden " was in a hot climate all year around. What bearing if any does that have on the protein debate? Could one follow such a diet say year round in Alaska? What about you Bob? You live in Yukon. Any ideas? Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 Hi Russ, Everybody, > But I tend to lean towards meat, eggs, fish ad fowl (not as much dairy > products) that, insofar as I can determine, have been raised in a 'range > run' fashion, as opposed to being raised in a confined area, been given > drugs to keep them healthy and foods tomake them grow fats. > > Animal protein was created in the first place for us to use as food by God > who created us. I don't think this general principle has changed. What I > think has become the problem is that by trying to improve on this, mankind > has actually made a situation that does not work as well because he/we do > not fully understand all of the biochemical inter-relations that come into > play when foreign biochemical entities are introduced into the > system (i.e., > animal to human biochemical physiology). > I agree with you. The debate on vegetarianism vs not is one of these never-ending ones and when contrasting the viewpoints and experiences of people like , vs. many successful 'Paleodieters' who have reversed their health problems by eating lots of high-quality meat (while stopping the grains), I doubt there will ever be any consensus. I eat fish, eggs, foul or meat on a daily basis and it is very good food for me. I feel that it is only because many of us are so clogged and deformed from bodies built by decades of junk and refined foods that people find that even moderate amounts of meat can sometimes be a problem when trying to detoxify, and that sometimes a total or near-vegetarian program can help get things moving because of the higher fiber content. And, yes, meat 'DOES' putrefy quickly in a stagnant colon, and I do believe the link between red meat and colon cancer has some basis in the context of the modern diet as a whole, but I think the real problem is the stagnant colon, and low stomach acid levels that can allow parasites to proliferate, not the meat. Who knows, maybe we can get all the protein and other nutrients like B-12 we need from green superfoods and combined grains/beans, for awhile anyway (I admit to not having made a serious attempt to try to do this), but even if we can I still think that the animal protein foods, from healthy animals, are good foods for people who choose them - it is the refined and processed junk, and to some extent unhealthy commercial and luncheon meats and commercial dairy, that are killing us. Essential Reading: 'Nutrition and Physical Degeneration' - Weston Price, DDS (available from Amazon.com). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 On 11/21/99 8:32 AM, rcrosby at rcrosby@... wrote: > From: " rcrosby " <rcrosby@...> > > I have a bit of a problem with this statement. I understand and know that > there are some good quality plant proteins from which amino acids can be > gotten. > > And I understand the potential problems with the various drugs and toxins > that may be found in meat. > > But I tend to lean towards meat, eggs, fish ad fowl (not as much dairy > products) that, insofar as I can determine, have been raised in a 'range > run' fashion, as opposed to being raised in a confined area, been given > drugs to keep them healthy and foods tomake them grow fats. > > Animal protein was created in the first place for us to use as food by God > who created us. I don't think this general principle has changed. What I > think has become the problem is that by trying to improve on this, mankind > has actually made a situation that does not work as well because he/we do > not fully understand all of the biochemical inter-relations that come into > play when foreign biochemical entities are introduced into the system (i.e., > animal to human biochemical physiology). > > Russ The original 'genesis' diet made no mention of animal flesh. Fruit was to be our meat, and the leaf was to be our medicine. I do not have any desire to enter into a religious debate, and I am not a 'radical' vegetarian and do not condemn people for eating meat, but there is no question that an intelligently applied vegetarian diet is vastly superior to one that consists of eating animal proteins. Now, I will agree that some people (the blood type O's for example) do much better on a diet that includes animal proteins, but I believe that they could do much better on one that consisted of a large quantity of high quality amino acids from the vegetable kingdom...enter the green superfoods. In the vegetable kingdom (nuts excepted), proteins come in the form of amino acids - in other words, they do not need to be broken down, because they are already broken down. ALL animal protein is highly concentrated and in long chain form, which means they must be broken down -- Marcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 , I have never said that eating meat in and of itself was 'bad' for you, either physically or morally. I do believe that if you are going to eat meat, you should go out and acquire it yourself, not buy it off a grocery shelf (the same for eggs, chickens, etc). The reasons for this are twofold...you are EARNING it, and you know where it came from. It is not even debateable whether or not you can get all the protein you need from grasses. Horses and elephants are two of the strongest land mammals, and that's all they eat. The strongest land mammal, the silver back gorilla, eats a diet consisting mainly of fresh fruit, and some occasional nuts and seeds and berries, and even the occasional bug. These are facts, and because our digestive system is so similar to that of the gorilla, his diet is what is best suited for us. Of course, since we don't have two or more stomachs and don't chew our cud, we cannot 'eat' grass, but we can grow it and juice it, which is far better than spending all day chewing the pulp. If you want to eat animal proteins, then by all means... On 11/21/99 11:05 AM, Reynolds at preynolds@... wrote: > I agree with you. The debate on vegetarianism vs not is one of these > never-ending ones and when contrasting the viewpoints and experiences of > people like , vs. many successful 'Paleodieters' who have reversed > their health problems by eating lots of high-quality meat (while stopping > the grains), I doubt there will ever be any consensus. I eat fish, eggs, > foul or meat on a daily basis and it is very good food for me. > > I feel that it is only because many of us are so clogged and deformed from > bodies built by decades of junk and refined foods that people find that even > moderate amounts of meat can sometimes be a problem when trying to detoxify, > and that sometimes a total or near-vegetarian program can help get things > moving because of the higher fiber content. And, yes, meat 'DOES' putrefy > quickly in a stagnant colon, and I do believe the link between red meat and > colon cancer has some basis in the context of the modern diet as a whole, > but I think the real problem is the stagnant colon, and low stomach acid > levels that can allow parasites to proliferate, not the meat. > > Who knows, maybe we can get all the protein and other nutrients like B-12 we > need from green superfoods and combined grains/beans, for awhile anyway (I > admit to not having made a serious attempt to try to do this), but even if > we can I still think that the animal protein foods, from healthy animals, > are good foods for people who choose them - it is the refined and processed > junk, and to some extent unhealthy commercial and luncheon meats and > commercial dairy, that are killing us. > > Essential Reading: 'Nutrition and Physical Degeneration' - Weston Price, DDS > (available from Amazon.com). > > -- Marcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 , > The strongest land mammal, the > silver back > gorilla, eats a diet consisting mainly of fresh fruit, and some occasional > nuts and seeds and berries, and even the occasional bug. These are facts, > and because our digestive system is so similar to that of the gorilla, his > diet is what is best suited for us. Their bug consumption can be quite significant. Also the following reference shows that chimps, who are known to be at least occasional predators, are closer to us in terms of DNA sequence than gorillas: http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-2b.shtml#other > Of course, since we don't have two or > more stomachs and don't chew our cud, we cannot 'eat' grass, but > we can grow > it and juice it, which is far better than spending all day > chewing the pulp. And humans were designed to get all their protein from juices and plants? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 , > but there is no question that an > intelligently applied vegetarian diet is vastly superior to one that > consists of eating animal proteins. I would almost say the reverse myself (at least comparing the long-term effects of a diet with low to moderate amounts of animal protein to diets with +zero+ animal protein), but don't because there are individuals like yourself who do well without the animal nutrients, at least for awhile. In any case, the Weston Price studies prove to me that humans can be strong, properly-structured and free from degeneration on diets high in meat or other animal-source foods. None of the traditional peoples he studied ate strict vegetarian diets; in fact the peoples he studied whose diets were restricted to smaller amounts of meat but were otherwise natural were smaller in frame, and suffered more tooth decay. The diet recommendations of EV Irons I was just reading were of interest to me also, as he allows some fish, eggs and even occasional beef in the maintenance diet following bowel cleansing. I just read that after arthritis at 40 he lived until 98 so it worked well for him. Other long-lived 'nature cure' types like Jensen and also relied on some non-vegetarian foods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 At 03:20 PM 99-11-21 EST, you wrote: >From: RJGoldsmit@... >This brings up the point of the " Garden of Eden " brought up by . I am >not religious in any specific sense and I definitely don't want to get >involved in any religious debate, but I do think that there is a type of >truth encapsulated in holy books. The Garden of Eden no doubt represents a >memory of a purer time when people lived as vegans. (This does not however >deny the fact that " cavemen " or " paleolithic " men lived largely by hunting, >as we know from their art). But again, what other factors come into play? >For example, weather. I have noticed that my body tends to eschew meat in >the summer and crave it in the winter. Since I live in New York I am subject >to great extremes of weather. Presumably the " Garden of Eden " was in a hot >climate all year around. What bearing if any does that have on the protein >debate? Could one follow such a diet say year round in Alaska? What about >you Bob? You live in Yukon. Any ideas? >Robin The climate and geographic location has a great influence on where people get their protein. In the Yukon (northen Canada) before contact with the Europeans (approx. 1840) the native people got their protein from meat. Caribou, moose, rabbit, squirrel, gopher and bear would be some of the species. Meat was eaten year round when it could be found. Another staple of the diet was fish, salmon being important. Migrating salmon from the Pacific travel inland over 1500 miles up the Yukon River to the central and southern Yukon. The salmon were caught in slow moving water from late July to October, depending on the species. Salmon were smoked, and this enabled them to keep over the winter. Salmon were, and still are, a very important food for the first nations people. Fresh water lake trout, whitefish and grayling were also plentiful. Berries were harvested in the late summer and fall. Large quantities were collected and kept over winter. As for vegetables, there were none as we know them today ie.) potatoes, carrots etc. Plants and vegetables eaten were native to the area. We have a type of plant that is similar to spinach and one to onions, as well as many other edible plants and mushrooms. Some of you may be familiar with the morel mushroom, it is harvested here extensively during the first and second year after a forest fire. The climate was difficult for the peolple. Snow from October to April and temperature extremes from -50C (-60F) to +30C (+90F). So life was not easy and life expectancy was short. What did effect the health of the native peolple negatively was their introduction to foods that the white man brought into the territory, sugar being one. Eskimos and Inuit that eat a high protein diet from sea mammals and fish and also a diet high in calcium have a high rate of osteoporosis. These people would be living on the coasts of the Arctic and Pacific Oceans. This is from my general knowledge and more detailed information can be found. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 " The average risk of heart disease for a man eating meat, eggs and dairy products is 50% The risk for a man who leaves off meat is 15% However the coronary risk of a vegetarian who leaves off meat, eggs and dairy products drops to only 4%. The risk for cancer of the prostrate, breast and colon is three to four times higher for people who consume meat, eggs and dairy products on a daily basis when compared to those who eat them sparingly or not at all. In addition, vegetarian women have stronger bones and fewer fractures, and they lose less bone when they age. Studies of long-lived vegetarian people like the Hunzas, who are healthy and active into advanced age, contrast sharply with the short lifespans and increased disease rates of Alaskan Eskimos, who depend largely on what they catch from the sea. " from Dynamic Living, Aileen Ludington and Hans Diehl. ------------------- Where you get the protein from is one thing, but what comes with it is another. If you get your protein from meat, eggs and dairy, you will also be getting saturated fat and cholesterol and a higher risk for heart disease, cancer and stroke (on average). If you get your protein from vegetables, grains and legumes you will be getting unsaturated fat, no cholesterol and high fiber. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 > >From: Putali@... > > > >This is my understanding too. Meat is definitely NOT the best source of > >proteins - as any nutritionist will tell you. Has anyone read " Protein Power " by Dr.s Eades? Aq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 On 11/21/99 3:48 PM, rcrosby at rcrosby@... wrote: > From: " rcrosby " <rcrosby@...> > > " The original 'genesis' diet " was designed to keep people healthy under the > original genesis environment. > > What you say would probably still apply if the original genesis environement > still existed - a greenhouse like atmosphere over the entire universe, an > atmospheric pressure that was greater than it is today, an atmospheric > oxygen content that was higher than it is today, freedom from all of the > toxins and pollutants, and the greater protection from cosmic radiation that > was there from the water that was " above the firmament " . > > These conditions under which people lived to be almost 1000 years old > doesn't prevail now. > > Russ You are correct, though I fail to see how you draw the conclusion that less favorable conditions require a more toxic diet. There is no question that the digestion of animal proteins produces far more toxic by-products than does eating high quality vegetable matter. Again, I am not criticizing those who eat meat (indeed, at the moment I am in one of my less-than-healthy modes, and eat lots of meat), I am simply stating facts. -- Marcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 On 11/21/99 2:54 PM, Reynolds at preynolds@... wrote: > From: " Reynolds " <preynolds@...> > > , > >> The strongest land mammal, the >> silver back >> gorilla, eats a diet consisting mainly of fresh fruit, and some occasional >> nuts and seeds and berries, and even the occasional bug. These are facts, >> and because our digestive system is so similar to that of the gorilla, his >> diet is what is best suited for us. > > Their bug consumption can be quite significant. Maybe...maybe not. I am not an 'expert' on such matters. > Also the following reference > shows that chimps, who are known to be at least occasional predators, are > closer to us in terms of DNA sequence than gorillas: > http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-2b.shtml#other I wasn't talking about DNA sequence, I was talking about digestive systems. >> Of course, since we don't have two or more stomachs and don't chew our cud, >> we cannot 'eat' grass, but we can grow it and juice it, which is far better >> than spending all day chewing the pulp. > > And humans were designed to get all their protein from juices and plants? > > Yes. Compare the digestive system of the silver back gorilla (a KNOWN strict vegetarian, with an occasional foray into the insect kingdom) with that of a known strict animal protein eater like a lion. The lions is short and simple with a very short transit time, and is designed to excrete primarily hydrochloric acid in very large quantities, ideal for breaking down animal protein. They spend their time either hunting, or sleeping. The silver back gorillas (and us), on the other hand, have very long and complex digestive systems, ideal for breaking down fruit and other vegetable matter, and NOT very efficient for breaking down animal protein. Yes, we can do it, and yes, we can even maintain relatively good health while doing so. This does not make it an 'ideal' food, merely one that can sustain life when nothing else is available. -- Marcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 Actually, there is abundant evidence that a high animal protein, low carbohydrate diet is heart healthy...but it does cause other problems. I don't pretend to have all the answers. I simply try to use my head. I am a blood type O, supposedly requiring meat, but I feel WONDERFUL when I maintain a strict, raw food vegetarian diet (high in the superfoods, of course). This is a fact. On 11/21/99 9:54 PM, Bob Stirling at gdraft@... wrote: > From: Bob Stirling <gdraft@...> > > " The average risk of heart disease for a man eating meat, eggs and dairy > products is 50% The risk for a man who leaves off meat is 15% However the > coronary risk of a vegetarian who leaves off meat, eggs and dairy products > drops to only 4%. > > The risk for cancer of the prostrate, breast and colon is three to four > times higher for people who consume meat, eggs and dairy products on a > daily basis when compared to those who eat them sparingly or not at all. In > addition, vegetarian women have stronger bones and fewer fractures, and > they lose less bone when they age. > > Studies of long-lived vegetarian people like the Hunzas, who are healthy > and active into advanced age, contrast sharply with the short lifespans and > increased disease rates of Alaskan Eskimos, who depend largely on what they > catch from the sea. " > > from Dynamic Living, Aileen Ludington and Hans Diehl. > ------------------- > > Where you get the protein from is one thing, but what comes with it is > another. > > If you get your protein from meat, eggs and dairy, you will also be getting > saturated fat and cholesterol and a higher risk for heart disease, cancer > and stroke (on average). > > If you get your protein from vegetables, grains and legumes you will be > getting unsaturated fat, no cholesterol and high fiber. > > Bob -- Marcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 Bob, > " The average risk of heart disease for a man eating meat, eggs and dairy > products is 50% The risk for a man who leaves off meat is 15% However the > coronary risk of a vegetarian who leaves off meat, eggs and dairy products > drops to only 4%. It does not indicate what the risks are from eating an organic diet including small to moderate amounts of meat from mostly grass-fed animals not fed hormones and antibiotics, some deep-sea fish, lots of vegetables and a few fruits, perhaps some whole grains, and no junk. This type of diet is different from the meat-based (or, rather, meat, starch, junk and no fiber diets) that cause heart disease. > The risk for cancer of the prostrate, breast and colon is three to four > times higher for people who consume meat, eggs and dairy products on a > daily basis when compared to those who eat them sparingly or not > at all. The overall diet and quality of meat make a difference. But I do see the potential link between red meat and cancer, yet for some people red meat also provides real benefits depending on their metabolism. > Studies of long-lived vegetarian people like the Hunzas, who are healthy > and active into advanced age, contrast sharply with the short > lifespans and > increased disease rates of Alaskan Eskimos, who depend largely on > what they > catch from the sea. " First, the Hunzas were not vegetarian, according to Bernard Jensen - they had some meat once or twice a week - which means 50 - 100 times a year (quite a lot of meat). Second, I question whether the Eskimos studied were still eating their native diets. The Eskimos Price visited were very healthy with excellent dental arches and no tooth decay (which would also point to low incidence of osteoporosis though he does not specifically report on that). In any case the natural-food diets eaten these days by people who are eating some meat for health generally do not have that quantity of meat (though I'm seeing an exception from a fellow on a raw foods list reporting that an 'all meat' diet is the way for him). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 In a message dated 11/22/99 12:07:40 AM Central Standard Time, cmarcus@... writes: << From: Marcus <cmarcus@...> Actually, there is abundant evidence that a high animal protein, low carbohydrate diet is heart healthy...but it does cause other problems. I don't pretend to have all the answers. I simply try to use my head. I am a blood type O, supposedly requiring meat, but I feel WONDERFUL when I maintain a strict, raw food vegetarian diet (high in the superfoods, of course). This is a fact. >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am also type O and have been a vegetarian for many yrs. If I even try to eat something that has meat in it I feel lousy...not sick or anything, just lousy until it is fianally gone out of my body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 Reynolds et al wrote: > I agree with you. The debate on vegetarianism vs not is one of these > never-ending ones and when contrasting the viewpoints and experiences of > people like , vs. many successful 'Paleodieters' who have reversed > their health problems by eating lots of high-quality meat (while stopping > the grains), I doubt there will ever be any consensus. I eat fish, eggs, > foul or meat on a daily basis and it is very good food for me. Yes! After, being a veggie for 7 years, I learned the error of my ways. The meat *has* to quality, hormone, antibiotic, gene-dicing, & c *FREE*. During this time, my teeth were wrecked and I gained weight. If I keep good bowel habits and I do, it is the right way for my heritage. My bloodline lived at the 40th parallel and higher. If my ancestors lived closer to the equator, I'd probably be happier as a near veggie (just a supposition here). Today, I thrive on buckwheat, rye, and millet, but not rice or wheat. I like barley, qinua, and amaranth but I don't eat enough to judge. Most of the food we eat is meat, veggies, and some little grain. I have read somewhere that if you are caucasian, you should never eat wheat. I have no other reference at all other than a impassim reference. Does anyone know anything of this at all. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 Marcus wrote: > I have never said that eating meat in and of itself was 'bad' for you, > either physically or morally. I do believe that if you are going to eat > meat, you should go out and acquire it yourself, not buy it off a grocery > shelf (the same for eggs, chickens, etc). The reasons for this are > twofold...you are EARNING it, and you know where it came from. My teacher Sri Swami Satchidananda, a vegetatarian, made it very clear that the main problem with meat eating was the production of chemicals that interferred with meditation and spiritual pursuits. There is some violence that " lingers " around as well, but it was a choice for you to make. Some people require meat. Blindly embracing vegitarianism is neither wise nor holy. I did not initially understand this; I should have never became a veggie. As for earning it, pick up the sickle as well and harvest your own grain. > It is not even debateable whether or not you can get all the protein you > need from grasses. Horses and elephants are two of the strongest land > mammals, and that's all they eat. The strongest land mammal, the silver back > gorilla, eats a diet consisting mainly of fresh fruit, and some occasional > nuts and seeds and berries, and even the occasional bug. OK, I'll debate it with you in 6 months if you change your diet to grasses. It is a big, obvious non sequitir to assume that your body and those of cattle, horses, and elephants are similar enough to have similar diets. The fact is that plants do not provide all the essential amino acids for your continued survival. To not have all of them is to invite certain physiological damage and death. Apes such as chimps and gorillas dine upon meat when available and occassionally enjoy a wee bit of cannibalism. > These are facts, > and because our digestive system is so similar to that of the gorilla, his > diet is what is best suited for us. Of course, since we don't have two or > more stomachs and don't chew our cud, we cannot 'eat' grass, but we can grow > it and juice it, which is far better than spending all day chewing the pulp. We are not intended to eat nothing but grasses. I'll agree with you, with some variance, on the imitation of the gorilla's diet. They do eat some meat with a predominance of fruit, veggies, nuts and seeds. They do not eat rice an wheat. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 RJGoldsmit@... wrote: > << Now, I will agree that some people (the blood type O's for example) do much > better on a diet that includes animal proteins, but I believe that they > could do much better on one that consisted of a large quantity of high > quality amino acids from the vegetable kingdom...enter the green superfoods. > >> Do you have a reference on the type O " diet " . Thanks, K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 In a message dated 11/23/99 02:54:10, preynolds@... writes: << he body over time will detoxify and heal itself itself on the right raw foods including raw meat, while all cooked food diets are destined to fail and only cause more disease. >> I have heard of similar beliefs. How can it be, ? How can raw meat not be filled with parasites? I understand that free-range chickens and other animals would have less parasites than the chemically raised ones, but how could they be parasite free? Almost all living creatures seem to harbor parasites. Why would anyone want to put themselves at such a risk by eating them wrong? Even sushi, if I understand it, is supposed to be frozen a certain way to kill fish parasites. Raw meat....? Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 1999 Report Share Posted November 23, 1999 >what raw foods list are you talking about Take a look at: http://www.odomnet.com/live-food/list_information.htm Even beyond the vegetarian or not debate, the philospophy and beliefs of Aajonus are quite a bit at odds with this 'bowel cleanse' list philosophy, as he does not believe in harmful parasites and specific bowel cleanses or colonics, but rather believes that the body over time will detoxify and heal itself itself on the right raw foods including raw meat, while all cooked food diets are destined to fail and only cause more disease. I question a lot of it but it is quite radical and fascinating. Aajonus' book 'We Want To Live' will strike a chord with anyone who has been damaged by modern medicine and has decided to wholly reject it for dealing with our ills. I'm just a lurker on the list right now - I don't specifically follow the 'Aajonus' plan but I eat similarly in some ways with about an 80% raw-food diet (and do bowel cleanses as well). I do eat a lot of raw eggs (easily over 1000 raw Country Hen Omega-3 eggs during the past year with definite benefits) and raw meat occasionally - though I find nothing especially toxic about cooking meat myself and generally prefer to as long as the meat is not dried out or charred (the big issue as far as its effect on me rather is meat quality and presence or absense of drugs in the animal feed). I like to take raw eggs in smoothies and mix in some green superfoods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 1999 Report Share Posted November 23, 1999 > << he body over time will detoxify and heal > > itself itself on the right raw foods including raw meat, while all cooked > > food diets are destined to fail and only cause more disease. >> > > I have heard of similar beliefs. How can it be, ? How can > raw meat not > be filled with parasites? I understand that free-range chickens > and other > animals would have less parasites than the chemically raised > ones, but how > could they be parasite free? Almost all living creatures seem to harbor > parasites. Why would anyone want to put themselves at such a > risk by eating > them wrong? Even sushi, if I understand it, is supposed to be frozen a > certain way to kill fish parasites. Raw meat....? > Robin Don't have an answer for you, Robin, but many people find raw meat very digestible and strengthening, and helpful in keeping the diet low in carbs (as carbo intolerance is common in chronic disease). As I said I'm not an Aajonus disciple (or anyone's disciple except the good Lord) myself, but he has many followers who have eaten raw meat on a daily basis for months and years and swear by the results and have not run into problems. Whatever one thinks of his ideas as a whole Aajonus himself by all accounts is a remarkable example of health regeneration. I have eaten some raw meat but not lately, and while everything has risk I really don't fear raw or undercooked meat myself from decent sources - for example I can pick up some organic Icelandic lamb at the HFS, and eat it raw if I want and be quite sure to not have any problems with it. I have yet to develop a desire in any way for raw or near-raw chicken though. There was a fellow on another raw-food list known as 'Zephyr' who practiced something called 'instinctive nutrition', and did get very sick and almost die from parasitosis from wild raw meat (caribou or something or other, I forget the details). Anyone interested in that list, which includes a lot of excellent scientific debate, heres the FAQ: http://www.math.jussieu.fr/~tu/raw-food/faq.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 1999 Report Share Posted November 23, 1999 On 11/22/99 2:06 PM, tehuti at tehuti@... wrote: > From: tehuti <tehuti@...> > > > > Marcus wrote: > >> I have never said that eating meat in and of itself was 'bad' for you, >> either physically or morally. I do believe that if you are going to eat >> meat, you should go out and acquire it yourself, not buy it off a grocery >> shelf (the same for eggs, chickens, etc). The reasons for this are >> twofold...you are EARNING it, and you know where it came from. > > My teacher Sri Swami Satchidananda, a vegetatarian, made it very clear that > the main problem with meat eating was the production of chemicals that > interferred with meditation and spiritual pursuits. As well as the toxins generated by metabolizing animal protein...it is a biochemical fact, whether it is free range meat or not. In small quantities, it is hardly noticeable. > There is some violence > that " lingers " around as well, but it was a choice for you to make. Some > people require meat. Blindly embracing vegitarianism is neither wise nor holy. Neither is denying reality. Just because you made an unsuccessful attempt to practice vegetarianism doesn't invalidate it, even for you. There are many different kinds of plant foods that you may have never eaten that would have made the difference. > I did not initially understand this; I should have never became a veggie. As > for earning it, pick up the sickle as well and harvest your own grain. I'm working on that... >> It is not even debateable whether or not you can get all the protein you >> need from grasses. Horses and elephants are two of the strongest land >> mammals, and that's all they eat. The strongest land mammal, the silver back >> gorilla, eats a diet consisting mainly of fresh fruit, and some occasional >> nuts and seeds and berries, and even the occasional bug. > > OK, I'll debate it with you in 6 months if you change your diet to grasses. It > is a big, obvious non sequitir to assume that your body and those of cattle, > horses, and elephants are similar enough to have similar diets. I never said they were. I was using these as an example of how grass juices are perfectly capable of producing extremely good quality bone, sinew, muscle, skin and hair. > The fact is that plants do not provide all the essential amino acids for your > continued survival. This is a ludicrous statement. WHAT plants? Sure, there are many plants that don't, but the green superfoods, not only contain all of them, but in enough quantity to produce a horse. > To not have all of them is to invite certain physiological > damage and death. Apes such as chimps and gorillas dine upon meat when > available and occassionally enjoy a wee bit of cannibalism. Chimps do, and I didn't use them as an example. Gorillas certainly do NOT...though it is very probable that there is the occasional exception (as there almost always is). >> These are facts, >> and because our digestive system is so similar to that of the gorilla, his >> diet is what is best suited for us. Of course, since we don't have two or >> more stomachs and don't chew our cud, we cannot 'eat' grass, but we can grow >> it and juice it, which is far better than spending all day chewing the pulp. > > We are not intended to eat nothing but grasses. I never said we were...stop putting words in my mouth, if you please. -- Marcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 1999 Report Share Posted November 23, 1999 >There was a fellow on another raw-food list known as 'Zephyr' who practiced >something called 'instinctive nutrition', and did get very sick and almost >die from parasitosis from wild raw meat (caribou or something or other, I >forget the details). Anyone interested in that list, which includes a lot of >excellent scientific debate, heres the FAQ: > >http://www.math.jussieu.fr/~tu/raw-food/faq.html > > Personally I would avoid raw meat like the plauge. Living in the north we have access to wild meat, moose and caribou. This meat when raw does harbour parasites. Our dog, a husky, loves this meat whenever he can get it and has gotten into trouble quite a few times from it. When it happened we were not aware that is was parasites (10 years ago). But eventually figured it out, he would get better after he had a worm treatment from the vet. A few months after eating this raw meat, his health declined considerably, very poor coat, lost weight, lethargic. At one point a friend who is a nurse thought he had cancer. When we started our cleanse program at home, we started him on a parasite cleanse also. His improvement has been amazing. I think his system is very sensitive to parasites. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 1999 Report Share Posted November 26, 1999 In a message dated 11/21/99 21:45:21, gdraft@... writes: << Eskimos and Inuit that eat a high protein diet from sea mammals and fish and also a diet high in calcium have a high rate of osteoporosis. >> Is this because the amount of animal protein they eat impacts negatively on calcium absorption? Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 1999 Report Share Posted November 26, 1999 At 06:07 PM 99-11-26 EST, you wrote: >From: RJGoldsmit@... > > >In a message dated 11/21/99 21:45:21, gdraft@... writes: > ><< Eskimos and Inuit that eat a high protein diet from sea mammals and fish >and also a diet high in calcium have a high rate of osteoporosis. >> > >Is this because the amount of animal protein they eat impacts negatively on >calcium absorption? >Robin It it is due to an excess of protein in the diet. " The body uses calcium in it's metabolism of excess protein and flushes the calcium out the kidneys. Studies show that calcium is always lost from bones when protein intake is too high, regardless of how many calcium-rich foods one eats or how many calcium supplements one swallows. " Dynamic Living, by Ludington and Diehl The text also says that North Americans are eating 2- 3 times more protein than they need and recommends 50-60 grams / day. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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