Labeling

[Guest guest]

Hi Rindy.

> I know this has been addressed, but I have a question. If you (for

> eg) put tea tree in a ointment and state that it has antibacterial

> properties, is that acceptable?

You have to be able to prove any claim that you make. If you are challenged

by the FDA or the FTC you will need to have that proof. If you are prepared

to pay for the testing on each batch of ointment that you manufacture, then

have it tested and make the claim.

also what is legal to say about a

> salve that helps itching? what do you say if you can not say relieves

> helps ect.... As you can tell I am confused I went to the FDA page

> and they really did not address this.... Any help will be really

> appreciated

The same applies to that, you have to be able to prove it. I know it is a

dilemma, but that is what we have to live with.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity

House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc.

achil@...

http://houseofscents.safeshopper.com/

[Guest guest]

-

Soap is exempt from labeling requirements in the United States,

so long as it makes no cosmetic or drug claims. Soap is defined

as a substance whose cleaning comes from and principal

non-volatile ingredient is the salt of a fatty acid (saponified

oils or fats in other words).

If you use SLS or such in your soaps, you must label them. If you

make claims such as " softens skin " or " moisturizing " you are

making a cosmetic claim and must label. If you say

" anti-bacterial " , " antiseptic " or " fights acne " you are making a

drug claim and must label.

Labeling in accordance with the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act (and

if you label for any reason, including consumer information, you

should follow this standard) can follow one of two approaches.

Firstly, you may list, in order of percentage by weight, the

ingredients used to create the soap. Or you may list the final

ingredients in order of weight in the product. To accurately list

final ingredients by weight including, for example, sodium

olivate, sodium coconate, glycerin, water, olive oil (left from

superfatting), really requires chemical analysis of the finished

product. It is much easier to accurately list olive oil, coconut

oil, water, and sodium hydroxide. You weighed the ingredients and

know what you used.

As far as others labeling, I treat comments from customers as a

chance to educate. I tell them things like: " You can't make soap

without lye. Ivory is made with lye and tallow. Commercial soaps

not made with lye are not soaps but detergents. Melt-and-pour is

made with lye, but some one else did the soapmaking, added

propylene glycol and sold it to be remelted. If someone says they

make soap without lye they are misleading you. If it isn't made

with lye and you wash with it, it is a detergent. " Our customers

really need to know what they are buying and why it is different,

IMHO.

God bless,

Jerry & Willis

Care about what you put on your skin?

All natural herbal soap and aromatherapy

bath products at www.heavensoap.com

Message: 6

Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:39:49 -0500

From: " Rodney R. Lilly " <rlilly@...>

Subject: Re: Label question

[sponified sodium hydroxide] I think is what it is called, could

be wrong.

trevan@... wrote:

> Hi!

> Since the lye is neutralized during curing in CP soap do I have

to list it on

> my labels? Some people at the last craft fair I attended were

not and I always

> have. I have received comments on this and I was hoping someone

could help out.

> Thanks so much.

> in Golden,

> BC

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

> I do realize there are those out there that may try to hide the fact that

> lye is used to make soap. We all know that soap, made correctly, does not

contain lye.

In my opinion you should never call sodium hydroxide lye. As far as I know

that is a brand name. As far as including sodium hydroxide on your label;

you don't have a choice. If you are going to include ingredients on the

label, then you must label the same as any other cosmetic and include

everything. If you are willing to test every batch to see what exactly are

the remaining ingredients, then perhaps you could get by without mentioning

it.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity

House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc.

achil@...

http://houseofscents.safeshopper.com/

[Guest guest]

Hi Pat,

> In my opinion you should never call sodium hydroxide lye. As far as

I know

> that is a brand name.

I don't think that lye is a brand name, I think that it is the

layman's term for sodium hydroxide.

[Guest guest]

Tracey. Deby here. If you're only giving it to family and friends you

might want to try cello bags tied with curly ribbon. I live in So.

California and found a candy store that sells them for $.10 a piece. Guess

it just depends on how many you need whether this is too high or not. I'm

looking for something in bulk, so I guess I'll keep looking.

LABELING

>

> I really like making this soap, till it's time to package it>....I'm not

the

> most artistic person, and would like some suggestions on labels and

> packaging..

> Thanks

> Tracey.

>

> I only give to family and friends, and plastic baggies just isn't the

look.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Terri

I have the same problem because I like to tell the customers what

jojoba or sweet almond oil, etc is used for on the skin. Most people

aren't aware of things like that and if you're adding the expense

to the soap, I think you should at least tell the people what a certain

soap is good for. Also, Terri, do you know how to get a smaller

font than 8 on Microsoft Word? I make my labels as " tags "

that I hand from the soaps with ribbon and sometimes the tag

ends up being as big as the soap!

M

labeling

Yep it's that famous question again.... " What can I put on my labels? "

Well I know how it goes.... if it's soap and it makes no claim you don't

have to label the ingredients, but if you do choose label, you have to use

proper INCI terms...of which I do have, but if I put this on my labels, the

labels would a mile a long

So.... to my question. I love to provide ingredient info to my customers...

can I leave the ingredients off my labels and hand the customer an

ingredient list without it being the proper INCI terms? I use simple terms

now that anyone could understand. OR should I cover my butt and put 2 sets

of ingredients...the proper INCI and the everyday words?

Terri... covering her butt in fear the next attck

[Guest guest]

I was also reading labels (I do it all the time) and I

saw that exact same label on a product by a very large

soap company. It said " Olive oil, palm oil, coconut

oil, essential oils. " I'm telling you, this company

is big. I see their stuff all over the area. I am on

the east coast, they are on the west. I assume they

are everywhere in between. How is it they can do that

if we can't? I just don't get it?

MK

--- diana & steven <bsr1508@...> wrote:

> Sorry, I have to add this....my understanding from

> talking with the FDA is

> that if you put on " one " ingredient, you have to put

> on all of them....which

> leads me to tall you about the label I saw of a well

> known soap in a store

> (at least i recognized the name)....it said " olive

> oil, palm oil, coconut

> oil, essential oils " .....and I had to tell the store

> owner...that if that's

> what was REALLY in that soap, it would be a puddle

> on the floor!

>

> Bell

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

sounds like someone who knows how to playthe game you go girl !!!!!

[Guest guest]

are everywhere in between. How is it they can do that

if we can't? I just don't get it?

Hi,

Just because some people drive 75 in a 55 mph zone doesn't mean it is

right. Sooner or later people get caught. If enough people get caught having

flagrent disregard for the laws then new laws get put into place. New laws

would mean more onerous regulation/stiffer penalties and for the cosmetic biz

who is self regulated - no one will be happy, but, we will know who to point the

fingers at.

This is why it is not uncommon, although not broadcast, that one company

will " drop the dime " on another company if they are pushing the envelope so to

speak. Knowing your compitiion is looking over your shoulder waiting for a

market advantage, (product recalls etc.), keeps everyone in line for the most

part. Much easier to just play by the rules and not have to look over your

shoulder.

Why do companies make labels like this or false claims? They take a risk

knowing that nothing will probably happen unless there is a specific complaint

made - by then they have sold a pile of product and have the money.

IMHO, If they have enough money/profit then the fine/sending out new

labels is not going to hurt thier wallet and they have already carved a niche in

the market. If the market is large enough then new lables won't matter to the

customer if they already use the product.

They don't care about the bigger picture, (more regulations), or playing

by the rules which makes for a level playing field. It comes down to playing

the odds to make the bucks.

Jen

http://labcolours.homestead.com/home.html

[Guest guest]

<<No, it is not legal to do it this way - if you don't want to label it then

you don't have to, if you do label it then you have to follow rules, but you

can't have it both ways.

>>

Based on the people I've talked to and the regs I've read, you *can* have it

both ways. The fact is that the regs are written in such a vague way that they

can be interpreted in any way. I called the FDA and spoke to several different

people several different times (as I've mentioned before) and was told that as

long as it's " true soap " then I can label it or not and if I choose to label

it, there are no regs for *how* I label it....meaning that I can legally put

" saponified oils " on the label.

When this topic came up awhile back with everyone taking sides on what their

opinion was, someone gave the perfect advice and I hope they don't mind me

repeating it. Do your own footwork. Read the regs. Talk to the people at the

FDA. Then make the decision about what you want to do because ultimately you

are the one on the hook for your decision. I label my soaps " Saponified oils

of.... " and I sent the guy at the FDA several bars awhile back as a thank you

for bugging him so often. So, yes I'm quite comfortable with that.

Perhaps where the problem lies is that you're citing information from books

that apply to " cosmetics " and true soap is not a cosmetic; therefore, the

regulations don't apply.

Melody

Rainbow Meadow Inc.™

http://www.rainbowmeadow.com

Essential oils, Waxes, Salts, Containers, Hydrosols, Scales & More!

[Guest guest]

Melody wrote:

> I called the FDA and spoke to several different people several

> different times (as I've mentioned before) and was told that as long

> as it's " true soap " then I can label it or not and if I choose to

> label it, there are no regs for *how* I label it....meaning that I can

> legally put " saponified oils " on the label.

This is what I got from reading the regs too. Lots of people always

post to say that if you're going to label soap, you have to use inci

naming for ingredients. I've never seen that written anywhere in any

regs.

Sandy Maine's book says you have to use inci wording, so maybe that's

where people are getting this. But as far as I know, she (Sunfeather)

still uses " saponified oils of " on her labels. That was on the label

the last time I saw her soap in the store, anyway.

[Guest guest]

> From: Melody <melody@...>

> Based on the people I've talked to and the regs I've read, you *can* have

it

> both ways. The fact is that the regs are written in such a vague way that

they

> can be interpreted in any way. I called the FDA and spoke to several

different

> people several different times (as I've mentioned before) and was told

that as

> long as it's " true soap " then I can label it or not and if I choose to

label

> it, there are no regs for *how* I label it....meaning that I can legally

put

> " saponified oils " on the label.

Melody, as you pointed out, this topic has been around many times with

people taking sides. On the labeling issue, I am on the opposite side to

you-even though I really like you:-)-and this is why.

Saponified oils of...is a misleading term because for the most part only

people in the business know what saponification means, most consumers don't

know what it means. The term is usually used by soapers that want to hide

the fact that they use lye as an ingredient, therefore it is deliberately

misleading the public. It is not legally or universaly acceptable

nomenclature for listing chemical ingredients, and your oils and butters are

considered chemical ingredients that all have INCI names.

Under the exemption you are required to list your company name and address,

the weight of the bar, the fact that it is soap and that it cleans. If you

choose to list ingredients; the only acceptable standard is INCI

nomenclature. You can list the actual ingredients that went into making your

soap or you can list the ingredients that are present in the finished soap

bar. In either case, you still have to use acceptable standards.

When labeling soap was discussed in the past, I have had many people tell me

that they didn't make any claims about their soap and came under the

exemption. Those people also sold on the internet, and when I visited their

sites I found that the vast majority were at least making cosmetic claims

and some were making drug claims. I think a good argument can be made that

what you say on a website is an extention of your labeling and would put you

outside the exemption. I also see many sites that never give a weight for

their soap or anything else. You don't know if your $5 is buying a 2 oz. bar

or a 6 oz. bar.

I find it funny that we all claim that we want accountability and accuracy

in labeling, yet in the hand-crafted soap industry the majority go out of

their way to hide the fact that sodium hydroxide is used in the manufacture

of their soap. I don't know why people are scared to have it on their label,

as sodium hydroxide is used in many food items as well as several cosmetic

products, including some tooth pastes. This is also a big problem within the

natural cosmetic industry with large and small companies lying on their

labels. I have been into natural longer than some people on these lists have

been alive, and a long time before it ever became a buzz word, but I still

believe in truth in labeling and I still believe in putting my customers

well-being before making a buck. I know you have some special need

customers, so the above is not personal, it is just my observation of the

industry as a whole. We need to start doing things properly before the

Federal Government decides to force us to do it.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity.

www.houseofscents.com

Cosmeticinfo

[Guest guest]

I disagree with this clip...

<<Saponified oils of...is a misleading term because

for the most part only people in the business know

what saponification means>>

I think that the general public can more easily

understand " saponified palm oil " than " sodium

palmatate " ! And, if a customer doesn't understand,

it's much easier to explain the one term (saponified)

than to explain ALL the other terms on the label.

Which, (by the way, if asked) I would explain to a

customer that sodium palmatate is saponified palm oil

which would force me to explain saponified eventually

anyway!

I also think that using the INCI nomenclature takes

away from the fact that we are using ingredients that

customers recognize, are familiar with and are assured

some level of comfort. If I list all the ingredients

using the nomenclature, my products look just like the

products from the big companies.... a list of

ingredient items most people don't know and can't

pronounce.

I think it's just the opposite. INCI nomenclature is

only for people in the business. If I was a customer

with no knowledge of how soap is made, I would rather

see the term " saponified oils of stuff I recognize " .

" Saponified " I can look up in the dictionary. It's

there. Sodium palmatate isn't.

If it's legal and I have a choice, I'm going with the

" saponified oils.. " method.

Marcelle

--- Pat McDonnell <achil@...> wrote:

> > From: Melody <melody@...>

> > Based on the people I've talked to and the regs

> I've read, you *can* have

> it

> > both ways. The fact is that the regs are written

> in such a vague way that

> they

> > can be interpreted in any way. I called the FDA

> and spoke to several

> different

> > people several different times (as I've mentioned

> before) and was told

> that as

> > long as it's " true soap " then I can label it or

> not and if I choose to

> label

> > it, there are no regs for *how* I label

> it....meaning that I can legally

> put

> > " saponified oils " on the label.

>

> Melody, as you pointed out, this topic has been

> around many times with

> people taking sides. On the labeling issue, I am on

> the opposite side to

> you-even though I really like you:-)-and this is

> why.

>

> Saponified oils of...is a misleading term because

> for the most part only

> people in the business know what saponification

> means, most consumers don't

> know what it means. The term is usually used by

> soapers that want to hide

> the fact that they use lye as an ingredient,

> therefore it is deliberately

> misleading the public. It is not legally or

> universaly acceptable

> nomenclature for listing chemical ingredients, and

> your oils and butters are

> considered chemical ingredients that all have INCI

> names.

>

> Under the exemption you are required to list your

> company name and address,

> the weight of the bar, the fact that it is soap and

> that it cleans. If you

> choose to list ingredients; the only acceptable

> standard is INCI

> nomenclature. You can list the actual ingredients

> that went into making your

> soap or you can list the ingredients that are

> present in the finished soap

> bar. In either case, you still have to use

> acceptable standards.

>

> When labeling soap was discussed in the past, I have

> had many people tell me

> that they didn't make any claims about their soap

> and came under the

> exemption. Those people also sold on the internet,

> and when I visited their

> sites I found that the vast majority were at least

> making cosmetic claims

> and some were making drug claims. I think a good

> argument can be made that

> what you say on a website is an extention of your

> labeling and would put you

> outside the exemption. I also see many sites that

> never give a weight for

> their soap or anything else. You don't know if your

> $5 is buying a 2 oz. bar

> or a 6 oz. bar.

>

> I find it funny that we all claim that we want

> accountability and accuracy

> in labeling, yet in the hand-crafted soap industry

> the majority go out of

> their way to hide the fact that sodium hydroxide is

> used in the manufacture

> of their soap. I don't know why people are scared to

> have it on their label,

> as sodium hydroxide is used in many food items as

> well as several cosmetic

> products, including some tooth pastes. This is also

> a big problem within the

> natural cosmetic industry with large and small

> companies lying on their

> labels. I have been into natural longer than some

> people on these lists have

> been alive, and a long time before it ever became a

> buzz word, but I still

> believe in truth in labeling and I still believe in

> putting my customers

> well-being before making a buck. I know you have

> some special need

> customers, so the above is not personal, it is just

> my observation of the

> industry as a whole. We need to start doing things

> properly before the

> Federal Government decides to force us to do it.

>

> Pat.

> Peace, Joy, Serenity.

> www.houseofscents.com

> Cosmeticinfo

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I also think that using the INCI nomenclature takes

away from the fact that we are using ingredients that

customers recognize, are familiar with and are assured

some level of comfort. If I list all the ingredients

using the nomenclature, my products look just like the

products from the big companies.... a list of

ingredient items most people don't know and can't

pronounce

Hi,

Like I said this issue is almost enuf to start a war....

Bottom line is that the INCI nomenclature was never designed for the

average consumer - it is for Doctors and Dermatologists and whomever else needs

to identify an ingredient by a chemical definition. If a person has an

identified allergy they are looking for the chemical name given to them by their

doctor, not the just everyday name on a label.

Believe me, if someone were ever to show up in an emergency room due to a

lye heavy skin reaction to a soap - Sodium Palmitate is a lot faster to find,

(and also identifies that sodium hydroxide has been used), than saponified oil

of palm...and for *this reason* the INCI names have been set up to identify the

ingredients on an International level. There is a bigger picture which

contains more than just soap ingredients. My INCI dictionaries weigh over 50

pounds so just letting you know no one is singling out only soapmakers and what

they use.

To soapmakers, everyday ingredients by everyday names are the norm - to a

lot of the outside world it is not.

I know it is frustrating and people don't like it and I really do wish it

were more simple

Jen

[Guest guest]

> From: Marcelle Karustis <whisperingpinessoapfactory@...>

> I think that the general public can more easily

> understand " saponified palm oil " than " sodium

> palmatate " !

Marcelle, by your way of thinking we may as well list essential oils by

their scent name as well. Why bother with the botanical name; nobody knows

what it means anyway, right? You can list the ingredients that you used to

make the soap instead of listing what is in the finished soap if you want.

The reason we use INCI nomenclature is so that we will be able to recognize

an ingredient regardless of what region a product comes from. I don't have

to wonder if the turkey red up north is the chicken little down south. It

may surprise you how names change from region to region.

And, if a customer doesn't understand,

> it's much easier to explain the one term (saponified)

> than to explain ALL the other terms on the label.

> Which, (by the way, if asked) I would explain to a

> customer that sodium palmatate is saponified palm oil

> which would force me to explain saponified eventually

> anyway!

And how are you going to do this if your soap is in a retail store a

thousand miles away? I hope you don't think the retailer knows what is in

his/her products? I had my local co-op tell me that they don't stock soap

made with lye. All they have is them thar saponified bars by the shelf full

and of course they got some M & Ps as well and them thar don't have no lye

either. If the store sales people don't know what they are selling, do you

really think the customer knows when they rely on the sales people to tell

them?

> I also think that using the INCI nomenclature takes

> away from the fact that we are using ingredients that

> customers recognize, are familiar with and are assured

> some level of comfort.

I would like to be able to call all my ingredients by their everyday

recognizable name, and it really ticks me off when my wife comes home with a

product that has been deliberately mislabeled. I could choose to be part of

the problem and label like those people; it would certainly make my life a

lot easier, or I can do what I am doing and be part of the solution by

following the rules and using INCI nomenclature. This is like speeding; you

may get away with it for a long time, but sooner or later the cop is going

to get you.

If I list all the ingredients

> using the nomenclature, my products look just like the

> products from the big companies....

Welcome to the real world. When you decided to go into business as a

manufacturer you agreed to this whether you realize it or not.

> If it's legal and I have a choice, I'm going with the

> " saponified oils.. " method.

That is the million dollar question, isn't it? Melody gave some good advice,

but she didn't take it far enough. You won't find a lot of information on

the FDA site because the FDA does not regulate true soap. I wouldn't count

on getting accurate information from calling them either because since they

don't regulate soap and you are talking about soap, you guys won't be on the

same wavelength. Whatever you do get from them, ask for it in writing sent

through the US mail.

The problem is going to arise when me or someone like me gets ticked off and

calls the FDA to tell them that you are selling a cosmetic that is

mislabeled, and insist that they (the FDA) do their job. Then they have to

investigate and believe me, if I am screaming at them that I am losing

business because you or someone else is not following the rules, they will

take steps to make you follow the rules or put you out of business.

I believe that we all have the right to play on a level playing field. The

only way that can be accomplished is by following the rules, and that

includes the labeling laws. I firmly believe that anyone that doesn't follow

the rules is doing this industry-handcrafted toiletries-a disservice, and

unless we clean up our act by ourselves, it will cost us dearly in the long

run with more stringent regulations. Ask the people in the UK what they have

to go through to sell their product. I think it is the same throughout

Europe; it will give you an idea of what is in store for us if we don't

clean up our act.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity.

www.houseofscents.com

Cosmeticinfo

[Guest guest]

i sent a e-mail earlier stating clearly our goverment calls " neat soap "

(their term) the saponification of an alkali with oil thus producing

saponified final product . that is what our government says. mixing sodium

hydroxide with oil is saponification according to the code of federal

regulations . not me or any other soaper our goverment says so (repeating on

purpose) so you can choose sodium palamate etc or saponified ils of and still

tell the truth. lieing would be omitting ingredients. neither wording does

that.--tamika

[Guest guest]

Hi,

There are many ways to saponify an oil, butter, or even waxes to certain

degrees, so using the word saponified on a label does not give any clear

indication of what was actually used. Below is a list off the top of my head...

Remember, using the correct terminology can avoid serious complications down

the road if the actual ingredient was ever needed in an emergency situation.

Sodium Hydroxide aka Lye

Potassium Hydroxide

Monoethanolomine (MEA)

Diethanolomine (DEA)

Triethalonamine (TEA)

Monoisopropanolomine (MIPA)

Diisopropanolomine (DIPA)

Triisopropanolomine (TIPA)

and so it goes......

Jen

[Guest guest]

I find that the best regulation is " self-regulation " . Do we really want

the feds breathing down our backs about what we can and can't do?

I know I don't...if they tell you that you can label this way or that

ask them to put it in writing. I currently work for UCSD in a research

lab that receives extramural funds from the feds and the state of CA.

Let me tell you, if they say you can do something...get it in writing

because if you don't it's your but on the line, not theirs.

However, if you can get them to put it in an e-mail, with their formal

automated signature, like what we use: with name, title, phone #,

address, etc.

This can then become your legal backup in case you ever need it, I have

had to refer to my e-mails on occassion and the feds have already put it

in writing that emails are " legal " backup.

I think the best way to protect ourselves is to follow the pattern,

if we each use the same nomenclature, then there shouldn't be any

problem. Maybe someone could set up a soapmakers lobby where we can

discuss these things, vote on them and set up legal lobbies to

protect ourselves....anyone a politician, or have political

aspirations???

may the goddess protect us!

peggy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Speaking of labels, it is really making me wonder out of curiosity - how is

everyone doing thier MSDS for retail products?

Jen

[Guest guest]

> From: 6k5@...

> i sent a e-mail earlier stating clearly our goverment calls " neat soap "

> (their term) the saponification of an alkali with oil thus producing

> saponified final product .

Not only our government, but the entire scientific community refers to neat

soap in the same way. However, this has no relevence to the correct method

of labeling your soap and that is what this discusion is about. The only

method prescribed by the FDA is the use of INCI nomenclature.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity.

www.houseofscents.com

Cosmeticinfo

[Guest guest]

and if I label my soap as " saponified oils of... " and use TEA instead

of NaOH, you don't think that would be in any way deceptive? Even

though virtually every other soaper uses NaOH or KOH?

The chemical definition of a soap isn't what we're discussing here -

no one in the scientific community or the industry would disagree with

that definition of " neat soap " . However, the point is ingredient

labelling. " saponified " is not an ingredient name, nor is " alkali " .

Seems pretty straightforward to me. You tell the customer exactly

what is in the product, or you tell them nothing. None of this

half-way nonsense. Saying " saponified oils of " IS, repeat IS,

omitting ingredients. That IS practicing deception in my books.

Tell me - why do you object to using sodium hydroxide on labels? What

exactly is the issue with this?

Jules in Vancouver

> i sent a e-mail earlier stating clearly our goverment calls " neat

soap "

> (their term) the saponification of an alkali with oil thus producing

> saponified final product . that is what our government says. mixing

sodium

> hydroxide with oil is saponification according to the code of

federal

> regulations . not me or any other soaper our goverment says so

(repeating on

> purpose) so you can choose sodium palamate etc or saponified ils of

and still

> tell the truth. lieing would be omitting ingredients. neither

wording does

> that.--tamika

[Guest guest]

I think that's good advice about getting it in

writing.

About getting people to " follow the pattern " , I don't

know. I don't think people will cooperate, even with

the majority, unless forced to. Sorry if I sound

pessimistic but I think that is the way of human

nature.

It would have to take a lobby and regulations to pass

to get everyone to come along. I mean, look what you

are seeing right here on the list. There are

emotional and passionate opinions going on here. It's

not going to be easy to change some of these opinions.

Perhaps formal regulations are inevitable.

Marcelle

--- peggy ramos <pookie3@...> wrote:

> I find that the best regulation is

> " self-regulation " . Do we really want

> the feds breathing down our backs about what we can

> and can't do?

> I know I don't...if they tell you that you can label

> this way or that

> ask them to put it in writing. I currently work for

> UCSD in a research

> lab that receives extramural funds from the feds and

> the state of CA.

> Let me tell you, if they say you can do

> something...get it in writing

> because if you don't it's your but on the line, not

> theirs.

> However, if you can get them to put it in an e-mail,

> with their formal

> automated signature, like what we use: with name,

> title, phone #,

> address, etc.

> This can then become your legal backup in case you

> ever need it, I have

> had to refer to my e-mails on occassion and the feds

> have already put it

> in writing that emails are " legal " backup.

> I think the best way to protect ourselves is to

> follow the pattern,

> if we each use the same nomenclature, then there

> shouldn't be any

> problem. Maybe someone could set up a soapmakers

> lobby where we can

> discuss these things, vote on them and set up legal

> lobbies to

> protect ourselves....anyone a politician, or have

> political

> aspirations???

> may the goddess protect us!

> peggy

>

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

i don't object to using sodium hydroxide as an ingrdient name i like the

way saponified oils of sounds and in my opinion (which is how this started

when i gave advice to someone about opening up a shop which branched of to

the labeling issue) again in MY opinion it is straight forward . you and some

others heck maybe many others see it different but the government does not

say when you label you must label like this or that unless you make cosmetic

claims on the prominent label (in reference to soap) i don't write laws i try

my best to interperet the meanings . and the bottom line is unless i make

cosmetic claims no one can tell us how to label our

soap. that is the beauty of living and working in america free enterprise.

happy soaping--tamika

[Guest guest]

About getting people to " follow the pattern " , I don't

know. I don't think people will cooperate, even with

the majority, unless forced to. Sorry if I sound

pessimistic but I think that is the way of human

nature...

Hi,

I agree with you. Until someone actually gets in a heap of hot water, is

made an example case and hung out to dry publicly then people will do what they

want.

One case does come to mind, there was a woman in the last few months that

received a warning letter from the FDA because of claims she made on her

website. Said her soaps were good for exema. She was told in no uncertain

terms that she is in trouble for selling an unapproved drug. You can view

warning letters on the FDA site, just in case anyone thinks it doesn't happen,

it happens all the time.

At least I know it won't be me

Jen

[Guest guest]

jules -why would i blame you i don't know you? i also don't think being rude

by calling me deceptive is necessary either. that is your opinion and when i

ask you for your opinion of my business practices then feel free to be as

brash as necessary--sincerely, tamika