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Jen ---very well put i like your fact giving in this e-mail ! :) because you

are right in the end what an inspector says is the bottom line sometimes i

see what i want and believe in my thoughts strongly . the main reason i do

not see saponified oils of .....as deceptive is when i first started that is

how i was taught now knowing saponification can mean many different things

opens my eyes will i change it right away Allah kows best but you have peaked

my interest LOL !! seriously if i ever thought i was deceiving people or that

my ideas where misleading in a harmful way (because people i know say lye hum

let me try the glycerin soap) i would stop, being on this list makes me see

people can be offened by what i see as harmless. i really see it as

saponifying and prefered it people where not scared . think about the names

used for many different ingredients don't sound at all like their common

names but the INCI has a myriad of cooky names for everything. i really

don't like arguing and i am by nature very mild mannered (lol) unless like

many of us i am provoked--have a wonderful day --tamika

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Jen-lol! i have seen that at B & BW alot smart guys(or girls) the declaration

thing question can you name for me (because i need ot know) the top five

(gurl parts LOL) irritants used in toiletries. common names please (i don't

have big books with names lol ) -thank you in advance-tamika

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one correction Tamika...if you make cosmetic claims in any literature,

in your sales pitch or on a website you are indeed constrained to

follow the regulations - it's NOT just about claims on the label - the

FDA interprets ANY advertising or promotion as being extentions of

your label.

Hey, if you want to label your soaps in a deceptive manner because it

sounds nicer, go ahead...just don't blame me when the FDA decides

they've had enough of the cottage industry and brings in regulations

like they're trying to do in Canada. Interpret the rules any way you

want, but just remember, at the end of the day, the only

interpretation that matters is that of the FDA inspector.

Jules

> i don't object to using sodium hydroxide as an ingrdient name i

like the

> way saponified oils of sounds and in my opinion (which is how this

started

> when i gave advice to someone about opening up a shop which branched

of to

> the labeling issue) again in MY opinion it is straight forward . you

and some

> others heck maybe many others see it different but the government

does not

> say when you label you must label like this or that unless you make

cosmetic

> claims on the prominent label (in reference to soap) i don't write

laws i try

> my best to interperet the meanings . and the bottom line is unless i

make

> cosmetic claims no one can tell us how to label our

> soap. that is the beauty of living and working in america free

enterprise.

> happy soaping--tamika

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but just remember, at the end of the day, the only

interpretation that matters is that of the FDA inspector.

Hi,

It doesn't matter what you read on a website, Jules is correct.

In the field the inspector is God - what they say goes and then you get to

defend yourself later on. But in the meantime they can basically close you down

by doing the following: fine you, force a product recall, sieze your goods, and

all kinds of other not so nice things.

If the inspector says your labels are incorrect then they are incorrect

period. Then your product will be not only considered mislabeled but also

adulterated.

The soap exemption, (not in too much favor with the FDA presently), does

not give a blanket exemption where anything goes. It is very difficult to work

within the boundaries which are soap - it cleans - no label required. It

doesn't include soap - look at all the goodies I put in there for moisturizing

benifits and this makes me better than a syndet bar label.

You also have to be cautious of what is called an Implied Benifit. If you

make a soap, no ingredient listing, but say it contains Shea Butter then there

is a percieved benifit by the customer that Shea Butter does something other

than clean - you have now crossed into the arena of cosmetic.

Now if all of this isn't enough to tick everyone off - here is another

issue - if you

do label then there are certain colours that are not allowed for use on mucous

membranes, (gurl parts).

Jen

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As-salaamu Alaikum Tamika,

" because you are right in the end what an inspector says is the bottom line "

This gives you something to think about, hunh?

Khadiyja Y. Ali

Shades of the Nubian

www.shadesofthenubian.com

Featuring Shea Butter Bath & Body Essentials

(888) 43-NUBIAN

Take time out to enjoy the experience!

Re: Re: labeling

Jen ---very well put i like your fact giving in this e-mail ! :) because you

are right in the end what an inspector says is the bottom line sometimes i

see what i want and believe in my thoughts strongly . the main reason i do

not see saponified oils of .....as deceptive is when i first started that is

how i was taught now knowing saponification can mean many different things

opens my eyes will i change it right away Allah kows best but you have peaked

my interest LOL !! seriously if i ever thought i was deceiving people or that

my ideas where misleading in a harmful way (because people i know say lye hum

let me try the glycerin soap) i would stop, being on this list makes me see

people can be offened by what i see as harmless. i really see it as

saponifying and prefered it people where not scared . think about the names

used for many different ingredients don't sound at all like their common

names but the INCI has a myriad of cooky names for everything. i really

don't like arguing and i am by nature very mild mannered (lol) unless like

many of us i am provoked--have a wonderful day --tamika

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Hi,

I just want to say that I do not believe that anyone is deliberately trying

to do anything wrong or deceptive or anything like that at all. There is a lot

of web myth out there about any number of things, (just think of all the Urban

Legends), and sorting it all out can be difficult at best.

You know the thought has occurred to me that in regards to labels there is

also what is called " Dual Declaration " . This is used in Europe and I have seen

it done here too.

For example: you would use the kooky INCI name and in brackets behind you

put in the common everyday name, in descending order of predominance. This way

you can also get the everyday names on there if you are concerned your customer

won't understand the technical terms and you are still using the INCI names. It

would look like this: INCI (common)

Also, if you use the Dual Declaration then you can also say lots of kewl

things about your soap like moisturizes, soothes, exfoliates, etc.

I should also point out that no one has ever gotten into trouble with the

FDA for *trying* to be in compliance.

Jen

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i did not know there was lye in glycerin soap. i list the ingredients i add

to plus columbus foods clear M & P so maybe i need to double check that

because i have not looked at the ingredients since finding out all the names

for sodium hydroxide . i just never thoguht about it mainly i make M & P for my

boys adding imbeddes etc. but i have had people say they would prefer the

glycerin because of the lye (i give M & P away because mine is not particulary

pretty i m working on it i have not given it the attention i should ) that

was in the begining . my soap has convinced people not to be afraid of lye

my comment was an example of why i use saponified oils of.... which also is

up for review now along with my M & P ingredients. so to make a long story

short it may sound like elementary but there is so much to learn about CP i

have read nothing on M & P i just pick up sound bites here and there.-

thank you for the question it remindined me i need to check-tamika

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people i know say lye hum

let me try the glycerin soap

--- 6k5@... wrote:

This brings up a good question. Do we have to label

the ingredients in glycerin soap? Why or why not?

Isn't there lye in there, too? Is it misleading to

sell a customer glycerin soap without telling them

that lye is in there, too, knowing that's why they

switched? What's up with that???

MK

__________________________________________________

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Hi Tamika, IF you make any type of claim about your soap whether on the label or

in your ad material etc. you MUST label the ingredients...IF you say your soap

cleans and that's it, you do not have to label unless you wish it to be a

courtesy to your customers. Now on to glycerin, cp soaps, and lye. ALL soap

repeat ALL soap has either sodium (hard bar soap) or potassium (liquid soap)

hydroxide. You CANNOT have soap without one of these two, if you have a bar

that is said to be soap, but does not contain one of these, then it is untrue

and a detergent.

When people used to ask me if I made lye soap, I would give them this long

speil about all soaps being " lye soap " even the soaps bought in the

stores...finally after explaining it for the gazillionth time and receiving only

blank stares, I just simply say yes. I was surprised at how people actually

accepted that and in turn it generated more questions and answers about the

soapmaking process and I can squeeze in there how far advanced soapmaking has

come in the last few decades. I can also give some of the benefits of handmade

soap versus commercially made soaps. It seems to me, the more honest I became

and stopped trying to " hide " that I used lye, the more people have become

receptive to it.

My suggestion is that if you do tell someone, " Yes, my soap is made with sodium

hydroxide " is to also say, " Would you like to try a sample? You can really tell

the difference, and I promise you it is NOT like anything your Grandmother ever

made! " Hope that helps you out with your fear of labeling....Saponified oils

sound nice, but most folks don't know what saponified means, yep I tried

explaining that one too lol

Now from what I understand about labeling glycerin soaps, if you do nothing to

them except melt and remold, no scent or anything added, you don't have to worry

about anything or label other than " SOAP " , but if you do want to label and/or

add something or claim something, you must list the ingredients in the original

soap base as well as whatever you have added to it. You would treat a premade

base the same in regard to labeling, that goes for lotion bases, shower gel

bases, body mists bases, premade soap bases, etc. Have a Blessed evening and I

hope you get it all figured out soon :) I hope I've helped in some way

H.

Kudzu Moon Soaps

" They'll Grow On Ya! "

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H that sounds yummy if i can find it i wonder fi it'll hold up in soap

? or if i steep it in oil or water hum? got any info on that? noxious maybe

inhaled it can do soemthing beside smell good LOL ! --tamika

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Many call kudzu a noxious weed including the federal gov't lol But it does

flower a purple/lavender bloom that smells like a floral grape soda, very sweet

and delicious...

H.

Kudzu Moon Soaps

" They'll Grow On Ya! "

H i just heard Kudzu is a flower in south carolina ? is that

true?--tamika

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thank you for your web site i was looking for it this afternonn LOL my next

question was what is your url LOL !! i live on fort gordon@ augusta,GA about

40min from columbia south carolina 5 minutes from aiken,SC etc. but i heard

about kudzu from

food network and it clicked because of your name Kudzu Moon thank you for

your help--tamika

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Oh I've tried it all LOL Kudzu is not poisonous externally or internally :)

Where are you located? Kudzu is spreading north and west but it is harder to

find outside of the South...

I have made a tea with the shredded root and made my soap with that and I have

one customer in Utah who said it was her new favorite....I don't make this

claim, but have read that the kudzu root is helpful for itchy skin. The

blossoms will turn brown and look like roaches in your soap, NOT recommended

LOL But they do make an awesome jelly I'm told, gonna try that one this

year....you can have french fried kudzu leaves or cook them like greens (turnip,

mustard, etc) If you like you can go to my website and click on the kudzu link

and it will give you more info on the plant itself :)

H.

Kudzu Moon Soaps

http://kudzumoonsoaps.homestead.com

H that sounds yummy if i can find it i wonder fi it'll hold up in soap

? or if i steep it in oil or water hum? got any info on that? noxious maybe

inhaled it can do soemthing beside smell good LOL ! --tamika

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I live in Aiken county, Warrenville to be exact, howdy neighbor

Janice

Re: Re: labeling

thank you for your web site i was looking for it this afternonn LOL my next

question was what is your url LOL !! i live on fort gordon@ augusta,GA about

40min from columbia south carolina 5 minutes from aiken,SC etc. but i heard

about kudzu from

food network and it clicked because of your name Kudzu Moon thank you for

your help--tamika

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In a message dated 4/24/01 12:42:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

6k5@... writes:

> thank you for your web site i was looking for it this afternonn LOL my next

> question was what is your url LOL !! i live on fort gordon@ augusta,GA

> about

> 40min from columbia south carolina 5 minutes from aiken,SC etc. but i heard

> about kudzu from

> food network and it clicked because of your name Kudzu Moon thank you for

> your help--tamika

>

>

I have to get in on this talk with all of yall s'uthners! I live in

columbia, sc! Who all is from round about these parts???

Angie

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I live 50 miles from Columbia, I just went through West Columbia a week ago on

my way to Sumter. Nice to meet you. Here are my URL's

http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Palms/5787/

Ocean's Dreams

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/4176/cheese.html

Standing In Line For Cheese

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/4176/HLH.html

Help Line House

Ocean's Designs

http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Palms/5787/design.html

Letters To God

http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Palms/5787/letters.html

Re: Re: labeling

In a message dated 4/24/01 12:42:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

6k5@... writes:

> thank you for your web site i was looking for it this afternonn LOL my next

> question was what is your url LOL !! i live on fort gordon@ augusta,GA

> about

> 40min from columbia south carolina 5 minutes from aiken,SC etc. but i heard

> about kudzu from

> food network and it clicked because of your name Kudzu Moon thank you for

> your help--tamika

>

>

I have to get in on this talk with all of yall s'uthners! I live in

columbia, sc! Who all is from round about these parts???

Angie

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You are quite welcome, hope you enjoyed your visit...Didn't know kudzu was a

feature on a cooking program :)

H.

Kudzu Moon Soaps

http://kudzumoonsoaps.homestead.com

thank you for your web site i was looking for it this afternonn LOL my next

question was what is your url LOL !! i live on fort gordon@ augusta,GA about

40min from columbia south carolina 5 minutes from aiken,SC etc. but i heard

about kudzu from

food network and it clicked because of your name Kudzu Moon thank you for

your help--tamika

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In a message dated 4/25/01 9:59:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

mom2four@... writes:

> Awww shucks, I'm in NC ain't been no further south than ton SC, but

> hope to one day make it to Georgia, always wanted to visit there :)

> H.

> Kudzu Moon Soaps

> http://kudzumoonsoaps.homestead.com

>

> I have to get in on this talk with all of yall s'uthners! I live in

> columbia, sc! Who all is from round about these parts???

> Angie

>

>

>

>

>

>

Hi , Where are you in NC? My daughter is in Durham.

Angie

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Angie i live near columbia ! i actually have a trip planned there for mid may

! I live in the CSRA GA side. i want to check out the peanut shop worst

peanuts or something like that you know what i mean down the street from the

capital building :)--have a wonderful day--tamika

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In a message dated 04/20/2001 1:47:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

achil@... writes:

<< You can list the actual ingredients that went into making your

soap or you can list the ingredients that are present in the finished soap

bar. In either case, you still have to use acceptable standards. >>

Pat- I have never seen this issue so succinctly put.Bravo for that short

explaination........Jo Ann

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