Guest guest Posted July 26, 2000 Report Share Posted July 26, 2000 Hi Rindy. > I know this has been addressed, but I have a question. If you (for > eg) put tea tree in a ointment and state that it has antibacterial > properties, is that acceptable? You have to be able to prove any claim that you make. If you are challenged by the FDA or the FTC you will need to have that proof. If you are prepared to pay for the testing on each batch of ointment that you manufacture, then have it tested and make the claim. also what is legal to say about a > salve that helps itching? what do you say if you can not say relieves > helps ect.... As you can tell I am confused I went to the FDA page > and they really did not address this.... Any help will be really > appreciated The same applies to that, you have to be able to prove it. I know it is a dilemma, but that is what we have to live with. Pat. Peace, Joy, Serenity House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc. achil@... http://houseofscents.safeshopper.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2000 Report Share Posted August 6, 2000 - Soap is exempt from labeling requirements in the United States, so long as it makes no cosmetic or drug claims. Soap is defined as a substance whose cleaning comes from and principal non-volatile ingredient is the salt of a fatty acid (saponified oils or fats in other words). If you use SLS or such in your soaps, you must label them. If you make claims such as " softens skin " or " moisturizing " you are making a cosmetic claim and must label. If you say " anti-bacterial " , " antiseptic " or " fights acne " you are making a drug claim and must label. Labeling in accordance with the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act (and if you label for any reason, including consumer information, you should follow this standard) can follow one of two approaches. Firstly, you may list, in order of percentage by weight, the ingredients used to create the soap. Or you may list the final ingredients in order of weight in the product. To accurately list final ingredients by weight including, for example, sodium olivate, sodium coconate, glycerin, water, olive oil (left from superfatting), really requires chemical analysis of the finished product. It is much easier to accurately list olive oil, coconut oil, water, and sodium hydroxide. You weighed the ingredients and know what you used. As far as others labeling, I treat comments from customers as a chance to educate. I tell them things like: " You can't make soap without lye. Ivory is made with lye and tallow. Commercial soaps not made with lye are not soaps but detergents. Melt-and-pour is made with lye, but some one else did the soapmaking, added propylene glycol and sold it to be remelted. If someone says they make soap without lye they are misleading you. If it isn't made with lye and you wash with it, it is a detergent. " Our customers really need to know what they are buying and why it is different, IMHO. God bless, Jerry & Willis Care about what you put on your skin? All natural herbal soap and aromatherapy bath products at www.heavensoap.com Message: 6 Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:39:49 -0500 From: " Rodney R. Lilly " <rlilly@...> Subject: Re: Label question [sponified sodium hydroxide] I think is what it is called, could be wrong. trevan@... wrote: > Hi! > Since the lye is neutralized during curing in CP soap do I have to list it on > my labels? Some people at the last craft fair I attended were not and I always > have. I have received comments on this and I was hoping someone could help out. > Thanks so much. > in Golden, > BC > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2000 Report Share Posted August 7, 2000 Hi > I do realize there are those out there that may try to hide the fact that > lye is used to make soap. We all know that soap, made correctly, does not contain lye. In my opinion you should never call sodium hydroxide lye. As far as I know that is a brand name. As far as including sodium hydroxide on your label; you don't have a choice. If you are going to include ingredients on the label, then you must label the same as any other cosmetic and include everything. If you are willing to test every batch to see what exactly are the remaining ingredients, then perhaps you could get by without mentioning it. Pat. Peace, Joy, Serenity House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc. achil@... http://houseofscents.safeshopper.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2000 Report Share Posted August 8, 2000 Hi Pat, > In my opinion you should never call sodium hydroxide lye. As far as I know > that is a brand name. I don't think that lye is a brand name, I think that it is the layman's term for sodium hydroxide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2000 Report Share Posted August 31, 2000 Tracey. Deby here. If you're only giving it to family and friends you might want to try cello bags tied with curly ribbon. I live in So. California and found a candy store that sells them for $.10 a piece. Guess it just depends on how many you need whether this is too high or not. I'm looking for something in bulk, so I guess I'll keep looking. LABELING > > I really like making this soap, till it's time to package it>....I'm not the > most artistic person, and would like some suggestions on labels and > packaging.. > Thanks > Tracey. > > I only give to family and friends, and plastic baggies just isn't the look. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2001 Report Share Posted March 15, 2001 Terri I have the same problem because I like to tell the customers what jojoba or sweet almond oil, etc is used for on the skin. Most people aren't aware of things like that and if you're adding the expense to the soap, I think you should at least tell the people what a certain soap is good for. Also, Terri, do you know how to get a smaller font than 8 on Microsoft Word? I make my labels as " tags " that I hand from the soaps with ribbon and sometimes the tag ends up being as big as the soap! M labeling Yep it's that famous question again.... " What can I put on my labels? " Well I know how it goes.... if it's soap and it makes no claim you don't have to label the ingredients, but if you do choose label, you have to use proper INCI terms...of which I do have, but if I put this on my labels, the labels would a mile a long So.... to my question. I love to provide ingredient info to my customers... can I leave the ingredients off my labels and hand the customer an ingredient list without it being the proper INCI terms? I use simple terms now that anyone could understand. OR should I cover my butt and put 2 sets of ingredients...the proper INCI and the everyday words? Terri... covering her butt in fear the next attck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 I was also reading labels (I do it all the time) and I saw that exact same label on a product by a very large soap company. It said " Olive oil, palm oil, coconut oil, essential oils. " I'm telling you, this company is big. I see their stuff all over the area. I am on the east coast, they are on the west. I assume they are everywhere in between. How is it they can do that if we can't? I just don't get it? MK --- diana & steven <bsr1508@...> wrote: > Sorry, I have to add this....my understanding from > talking with the FDA is > that if you put on " one " ingredient, you have to put > on all of them....which > leads me to tall you about the label I saw of a well > known soap in a store > (at least i recognized the name)....it said " olive > oil, palm oil, coconut > oil, essential oils " .....and I had to tell the store > owner...that if that's > what was REALLY in that soap, it would be a puddle > on the floor! > > Bell > > > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 sounds like someone who knows how to playthe game you go girl !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 are everywhere in between. How is it they can do that if we can't? I just don't get it? Hi, Just because some people drive 75 in a 55 mph zone doesn't mean it is right. Sooner or later people get caught. If enough people get caught having flagrent disregard for the laws then new laws get put into place. New laws would mean more onerous regulation/stiffer penalties and for the cosmetic biz who is self regulated - no one will be happy, but, we will know who to point the fingers at. This is why it is not uncommon, although not broadcast, that one company will " drop the dime " on another company if they are pushing the envelope so to speak. Knowing your compitiion is looking over your shoulder waiting for a market advantage, (product recalls etc.), keeps everyone in line for the most part. Much easier to just play by the rules and not have to look over your shoulder. Why do companies make labels like this or false claims? They take a risk knowing that nothing will probably happen unless there is a specific complaint made - by then they have sold a pile of product and have the money. IMHO, If they have enough money/profit then the fine/sending out new labels is not going to hurt thier wallet and they have already carved a niche in the market. If the market is large enough then new lables won't matter to the customer if they already use the product. They don't care about the bigger picture, (more regulations), or playing by the rules which makes for a level playing field. It comes down to playing the odds to make the bucks. Jen http://labcolours.homestead.com/home.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 <<No, it is not legal to do it this way - if you don't want to label it then you don't have to, if you do label it then you have to follow rules, but you can't have it both ways. >> Based on the people I've talked to and the regs I've read, you *can* have it both ways. The fact is that the regs are written in such a vague way that they can be interpreted in any way. I called the FDA and spoke to several different people several different times (as I've mentioned before) and was told that as long as it's " true soap " then I can label it or not and if I choose to label it, there are no regs for *how* I label it....meaning that I can legally put " saponified oils " on the label. When this topic came up awhile back with everyone taking sides on what their opinion was, someone gave the perfect advice and I hope they don't mind me repeating it. Do your own footwork. Read the regs. Talk to the people at the FDA. Then make the decision about what you want to do because ultimately you are the one on the hook for your decision. I label my soaps " Saponified oils of.... " and I sent the guy at the FDA several bars awhile back as a thank you for bugging him so often. So, yes I'm quite comfortable with that. Perhaps where the problem lies is that you're citing information from books that apply to " cosmetics " and true soap is not a cosmetic; therefore, the regulations don't apply. Melody Rainbow Meadow Inc.â„¢ http://www.rainbowmeadow.com Essential oils, Waxes, Salts, Containers, Hydrosols, Scales & More! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Melody wrote: > I called the FDA and spoke to several different people several > different times (as I've mentioned before) and was told that as long > as it's " true soap " then I can label it or not and if I choose to > label it, there are no regs for *how* I label it....meaning that I can > legally put " saponified oils " on the label. This is what I got from reading the regs too. Lots of people always post to say that if you're going to label soap, you have to use inci naming for ingredients. I've never seen that written anywhere in any regs. Sandy Maine's book says you have to use inci wording, so maybe that's where people are getting this. But as far as I know, she (Sunfeather) still uses " saponified oils of " on her labels. That was on the label the last time I saw her soap in the store, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 > From: Melody <melody@...> > Based on the people I've talked to and the regs I've read, you *can* have it > both ways. The fact is that the regs are written in such a vague way that they > can be interpreted in any way. I called the FDA and spoke to several different > people several different times (as I've mentioned before) and was told that as > long as it's " true soap " then I can label it or not and if I choose to label > it, there are no regs for *how* I label it....meaning that I can legally put > " saponified oils " on the label. Melody, as you pointed out, this topic has been around many times with people taking sides. On the labeling issue, I am on the opposite side to you-even though I really like you:-)-and this is why. Saponified oils of...is a misleading term because for the most part only people in the business know what saponification means, most consumers don't know what it means. The term is usually used by soapers that want to hide the fact that they use lye as an ingredient, therefore it is deliberately misleading the public. It is not legally or universaly acceptable nomenclature for listing chemical ingredients, and your oils and butters are considered chemical ingredients that all have INCI names. Under the exemption you are required to list your company name and address, the weight of the bar, the fact that it is soap and that it cleans. If you choose to list ingredients; the only acceptable standard is INCI nomenclature. You can list the actual ingredients that went into making your soap or you can list the ingredients that are present in the finished soap bar. In either case, you still have to use acceptable standards. When labeling soap was discussed in the past, I have had many people tell me that they didn't make any claims about their soap and came under the exemption. Those people also sold on the internet, and when I visited their sites I found that the vast majority were at least making cosmetic claims and some were making drug claims. I think a good argument can be made that what you say on a website is an extention of your labeling and would put you outside the exemption. I also see many sites that never give a weight for their soap or anything else. You don't know if your $5 is buying a 2 oz. bar or a 6 oz. bar. I find it funny that we all claim that we want accountability and accuracy in labeling, yet in the hand-crafted soap industry the majority go out of their way to hide the fact that sodium hydroxide is used in the manufacture of their soap. I don't know why people are scared to have it on their label, as sodium hydroxide is used in many food items as well as several cosmetic products, including some tooth pastes. This is also a big problem within the natural cosmetic industry with large and small companies lying on their labels. I have been into natural longer than some people on these lists have been alive, and a long time before it ever became a buzz word, but I still believe in truth in labeling and I still believe in putting my customers well-being before making a buck. I know you have some special need customers, so the above is not personal, it is just my observation of the industry as a whole. We need to start doing things properly before the Federal Government decides to force us to do it. Pat. Peace, Joy, Serenity. www.houseofscents.com Cosmeticinfo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 I disagree with this clip... <<Saponified oils of...is a misleading term because for the most part only people in the business know what saponification means>> I think that the general public can more easily understand " saponified palm oil " than " sodium palmatate " ! And, if a customer doesn't understand, it's much easier to explain the one term (saponified) than to explain ALL the other terms on the label. Which, (by the way, if asked) I would explain to a customer that sodium palmatate is saponified palm oil which would force me to explain saponified eventually anyway! I also think that using the INCI nomenclature takes away from the fact that we are using ingredients that customers recognize, are familiar with and are assured some level of comfort. If I list all the ingredients using the nomenclature, my products look just like the products from the big companies.... a list of ingredient items most people don't know and can't pronounce. I think it's just the opposite. INCI nomenclature is only for people in the business. If I was a customer with no knowledge of how soap is made, I would rather see the term " saponified oils of stuff I recognize " . " Saponified " I can look up in the dictionary. It's there. Sodium palmatate isn't. If it's legal and I have a choice, I'm going with the " saponified oils.. " method. Marcelle --- Pat McDonnell <achil@...> wrote: > > From: Melody <melody@...> > > Based on the people I've talked to and the regs > I've read, you *can* have > it > > both ways. The fact is that the regs are written > in such a vague way that > they > > can be interpreted in any way. I called the FDA > and spoke to several > different > > people several different times (as I've mentioned > before) and was told > that as > > long as it's " true soap " then I can label it or > not and if I choose to > label > > it, there are no regs for *how* I label > it....meaning that I can legally > put > > " saponified oils " on the label. > > Melody, as you pointed out, this topic has been > around many times with > people taking sides. On the labeling issue, I am on > the opposite side to > you-even though I really like you:-)-and this is > why. > > Saponified oils of...is a misleading term because > for the most part only > people in the business know what saponification > means, most consumers don't > know what it means. The term is usually used by > soapers that want to hide > the fact that they use lye as an ingredient, > therefore it is deliberately > misleading the public. It is not legally or > universaly acceptable > nomenclature for listing chemical ingredients, and > your oils and butters are > considered chemical ingredients that all have INCI > names. > > Under the exemption you are required to list your > company name and address, > the weight of the bar, the fact that it is soap and > that it cleans. If you > choose to list ingredients; the only acceptable > standard is INCI > nomenclature. You can list the actual ingredients > that went into making your > soap or you can list the ingredients that are > present in the finished soap > bar. In either case, you still have to use > acceptable standards. > > When labeling soap was discussed in the past, I have > had many people tell me > that they didn't make any claims about their soap > and came under the > exemption. Those people also sold on the internet, > and when I visited their > sites I found that the vast majority were at least > making cosmetic claims > and some were making drug claims. I think a good > argument can be made that > what you say on a website is an extention of your > labeling and would put you > outside the exemption. I also see many sites that > never give a weight for > their soap or anything else. You don't know if your > $5 is buying a 2 oz. bar > or a 6 oz. bar. > > I find it funny that we all claim that we want > accountability and accuracy > in labeling, yet in the hand-crafted soap industry > the majority go out of > their way to hide the fact that sodium hydroxide is > used in the manufacture > of their soap. I don't know why people are scared to > have it on their label, > as sodium hydroxide is used in many food items as > well as several cosmetic > products, including some tooth pastes. This is also > a big problem within the > natural cosmetic industry with large and small > companies lying on their > labels. I have been into natural longer than some > people on these lists have > been alive, and a long time before it ever became a > buzz word, but I still > believe in truth in labeling and I still believe in > putting my customers > well-being before making a buck. I know you have > some special need > customers, so the above is not personal, it is just > my observation of the > industry as a whole. We need to start doing things > properly before the > Federal Government decides to force us to do it. > > Pat. > Peace, Joy, Serenity. > www.houseofscents.com > Cosmeticinfo > > > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 I also think that using the INCI nomenclature takes away from the fact that we are using ingredients that customers recognize, are familiar with and are assured some level of comfort. If I list all the ingredients using the nomenclature, my products look just like the products from the big companies.... a list of ingredient items most people don't know and can't pronounce Hi, Like I said this issue is almost enuf to start a war.... Bottom line is that the INCI nomenclature was never designed for the average consumer - it is for Doctors and Dermatologists and whomever else needs to identify an ingredient by a chemical definition. If a person has an identified allergy they are looking for the chemical name given to them by their doctor, not the just everyday name on a label. Believe me, if someone were ever to show up in an emergency room due to a lye heavy skin reaction to a soap - Sodium Palmitate is a lot faster to find, (and also identifies that sodium hydroxide has been used), than saponified oil of palm...and for *this reason* the INCI names have been set up to identify the ingredients on an International level. There is a bigger picture which contains more than just soap ingredients. My INCI dictionaries weigh over 50 pounds so just letting you know no one is singling out only soapmakers and what they use. To soapmakers, everyday ingredients by everyday names are the norm - to a lot of the outside world it is not. I know it is frustrating and people don't like it and I really do wish it were more simple Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 > From: Marcelle Karustis <whisperingpinessoapfactory@...> > I think that the general public can more easily > understand " saponified palm oil " than " sodium > palmatate " ! Marcelle, by your way of thinking we may as well list essential oils by their scent name as well. Why bother with the botanical name; nobody knows what it means anyway, right? You can list the ingredients that you used to make the soap instead of listing what is in the finished soap if you want. The reason we use INCI nomenclature is so that we will be able to recognize an ingredient regardless of what region a product comes from. I don't have to wonder if the turkey red up north is the chicken little down south. It may surprise you how names change from region to region. And, if a customer doesn't understand, > it's much easier to explain the one term (saponified) > than to explain ALL the other terms on the label. > Which, (by the way, if asked) I would explain to a > customer that sodium palmatate is saponified palm oil > which would force me to explain saponified eventually > anyway! And how are you going to do this if your soap is in a retail store a thousand miles away? I hope you don't think the retailer knows what is in his/her products? I had my local co-op tell me that they don't stock soap made with lye. All they have is them thar saponified bars by the shelf full and of course they got some M & Ps as well and them thar don't have no lye either. If the store sales people don't know what they are selling, do you really think the customer knows when they rely on the sales people to tell them? > I also think that using the INCI nomenclature takes > away from the fact that we are using ingredients that > customers recognize, are familiar with and are assured > some level of comfort. I would like to be able to call all my ingredients by their everyday recognizable name, and it really ticks me off when my wife comes home with a product that has been deliberately mislabeled. I could choose to be part of the problem and label like those people; it would certainly make my life a lot easier, or I can do what I am doing and be part of the solution by following the rules and using INCI nomenclature. This is like speeding; you may get away with it for a long time, but sooner or later the cop is going to get you. If I list all the ingredients > using the nomenclature, my products look just like the > products from the big companies.... Welcome to the real world. When you decided to go into business as a manufacturer you agreed to this whether you realize it or not. > If it's legal and I have a choice, I'm going with the > " saponified oils.. " method. That is the million dollar question, isn't it? Melody gave some good advice, but she didn't take it far enough. You won't find a lot of information on the FDA site because the FDA does not regulate true soap. I wouldn't count on getting accurate information from calling them either because since they don't regulate soap and you are talking about soap, you guys won't be on the same wavelength. Whatever you do get from them, ask for it in writing sent through the US mail. The problem is going to arise when me or someone like me gets ticked off and calls the FDA to tell them that you are selling a cosmetic that is mislabeled, and insist that they (the FDA) do their job. Then they have to investigate and believe me, if I am screaming at them that I am losing business because you or someone else is not following the rules, they will take steps to make you follow the rules or put you out of business. I believe that we all have the right to play on a level playing field. The only way that can be accomplished is by following the rules, and that includes the labeling laws. I firmly believe that anyone that doesn't follow the rules is doing this industry-handcrafted toiletries-a disservice, and unless we clean up our act by ourselves, it will cost us dearly in the long run with more stringent regulations. Ask the people in the UK what they have to go through to sell their product. I think it is the same throughout Europe; it will give you an idea of what is in store for us if we don't clean up our act. Pat. Peace, Joy, Serenity. www.houseofscents.com Cosmeticinfo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 i sent a e-mail earlier stating clearly our goverment calls " neat soap " (their term) the saponification of an alkali with oil thus producing saponified final product . that is what our government says. mixing sodium hydroxide with oil is saponification according to the code of federal regulations . not me or any other soaper our goverment says so (repeating on purpose) so you can choose sodium palamate etc or saponified ils of and still tell the truth. lieing would be omitting ingredients. neither wording does that.--tamika Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 Hi, There are many ways to saponify an oil, butter, or even waxes to certain degrees, so using the word saponified on a label does not give any clear indication of what was actually used. Below is a list off the top of my head... Remember, using the correct terminology can avoid serious complications down the road if the actual ingredient was ever needed in an emergency situation. Sodium Hydroxide aka Lye Potassium Hydroxide Monoethanolomine (MEA) Diethanolomine (DEA) Triethalonamine (TEA) Monoisopropanolomine (MIPA) Diisopropanolomine (DIPA) Triisopropanolomine (TIPA) and so it goes...... Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 I find that the best regulation is " self-regulation " . Do we really want the feds breathing down our backs about what we can and can't do? I know I don't...if they tell you that you can label this way or that ask them to put it in writing. I currently work for UCSD in a research lab that receives extramural funds from the feds and the state of CA. Let me tell you, if they say you can do something...get it in writing because if you don't it's your but on the line, not theirs. However, if you can get them to put it in an e-mail, with their formal automated signature, like what we use: with name, title, phone #, address, etc. This can then become your legal backup in case you ever need it, I have had to refer to my e-mails on occassion and the feds have already put it in writing that emails are " legal " backup. I think the best way to protect ourselves is to follow the pattern, if we each use the same nomenclature, then there shouldn't be any problem. Maybe someone could set up a soapmakers lobby where we can discuss these things, vote on them and set up legal lobbies to protect ourselves....anyone a politician, or have political aspirations??? may the goddess protect us! peggy > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 Hi, Speaking of labels, it is really making me wonder out of curiosity - how is everyone doing thier MSDS for retail products? Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 > From: 6k5@... > i sent a e-mail earlier stating clearly our goverment calls " neat soap " > (their term) the saponification of an alkali with oil thus producing > saponified final product . Not only our government, but the entire scientific community refers to neat soap in the same way. However, this has no relevence to the correct method of labeling your soap and that is what this discusion is about. The only method prescribed by the FDA is the use of INCI nomenclature. Pat. Peace, Joy, Serenity. www.houseofscents.com Cosmeticinfo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 and if I label my soap as " saponified oils of... " and use TEA instead of NaOH, you don't think that would be in any way deceptive? Even though virtually every other soaper uses NaOH or KOH? The chemical definition of a soap isn't what we're discussing here - no one in the scientific community or the industry would disagree with that definition of " neat soap " . However, the point is ingredient labelling. " saponified " is not an ingredient name, nor is " alkali " . Seems pretty straightforward to me. You tell the customer exactly what is in the product, or you tell them nothing. None of this half-way nonsense. Saying " saponified oils of " IS, repeat IS, omitting ingredients. That IS practicing deception in my books. Tell me - why do you object to using sodium hydroxide on labels? What exactly is the issue with this? Jules in Vancouver > i sent a e-mail earlier stating clearly our goverment calls " neat soap " > (their term) the saponification of an alkali with oil thus producing > saponified final product . that is what our government says. mixing sodium > hydroxide with oil is saponification according to the code of federal > regulations . not me or any other soaper our goverment says so (repeating on > purpose) so you can choose sodium palamate etc or saponified ils of and still > tell the truth. lieing would be omitting ingredients. neither wording does > that.--tamika Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 I think that's good advice about getting it in writing. About getting people to " follow the pattern " , I don't know. I don't think people will cooperate, even with the majority, unless forced to. Sorry if I sound pessimistic but I think that is the way of human nature. It would have to take a lobby and regulations to pass to get everyone to come along. I mean, look what you are seeing right here on the list. There are emotional and passionate opinions going on here. It's not going to be easy to change some of these opinions. Perhaps formal regulations are inevitable. Marcelle --- peggy ramos <pookie3@...> wrote: > I find that the best regulation is > " self-regulation " . Do we really want > the feds breathing down our backs about what we can > and can't do? > I know I don't...if they tell you that you can label > this way or that > ask them to put it in writing. I currently work for > UCSD in a research > lab that receives extramural funds from the feds and > the state of CA. > Let me tell you, if they say you can do > something...get it in writing > because if you don't it's your but on the line, not > theirs. > However, if you can get them to put it in an e-mail, > with their formal > automated signature, like what we use: with name, > title, phone #, > address, etc. > This can then become your legal backup in case you > ever need it, I have > had to refer to my e-mails on occassion and the feds > have already put it > in writing that emails are " legal " backup. > I think the best way to protect ourselves is to > follow the pattern, > if we each use the same nomenclature, then there > shouldn't be any > problem. Maybe someone could set up a soapmakers > lobby where we can > discuss these things, vote on them and set up legal > lobbies to > protect ourselves....anyone a politician, or have > political > aspirations??? > may the goddess protect us! > peggy > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 i don't object to using sodium hydroxide as an ingrdient name i like the way saponified oils of sounds and in my opinion (which is how this started when i gave advice to someone about opening up a shop which branched of to the labeling issue) again in MY opinion it is straight forward . you and some others heck maybe many others see it different but the government does not say when you label you must label like this or that unless you make cosmetic claims on the prominent label (in reference to soap) i don't write laws i try my best to interperet the meanings . and the bottom line is unless i make cosmetic claims no one can tell us how to label our soap. that is the beauty of living and working in america free enterprise. happy soaping--tamika Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 About getting people to " follow the pattern " , I don't know. I don't think people will cooperate, even with the majority, unless forced to. Sorry if I sound pessimistic but I think that is the way of human nature... Hi, I agree with you. Until someone actually gets in a heap of hot water, is made an example case and hung out to dry publicly then people will do what they want. One case does come to mind, there was a woman in the last few months that received a warning letter from the FDA because of claims she made on her website. Said her soaps were good for exema. She was told in no uncertain terms that she is in trouble for selling an unapproved drug. You can view warning letters on the FDA site, just in case anyone thinks it doesn't happen, it happens all the time. At least I know it won't be me Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 jules -why would i blame you i don't know you? i also don't think being rude by calling me deceptive is necessary either. that is your opinion and when i ask you for your opinion of my business practices then feel free to be as brash as necessary--sincerely, tamika Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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