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Re: Re: T3 only

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bridan90 wrote:

>

> The only tests done here in Ireland as a matter of routine are tsh

> and T4. I have been taking synthetic T3 (20mcg)for the last year

> and my doctor has had to write on the lab form in CAPITAL LETTERS

> PLEASE TEST FOR T3 as the they only seem to want to test for T4. ...

Part of the reason for this is that T4 is generally easier to measure

accurately. Even in places where Free T3 can be " measured, " (actually a

subtraction) it is common to get an " index " or other indirect measure

calculated from Total T4 and bound fraction. The assumption is that

Total T3 and Total T4 tend to be stably proportional. So, if Total T4 is

in the middle of the normal range, you can be reasonably sure that Total

T3 is also. In fact, this deduction may be more accurate than attempting

to measure T3 directly.

Similarly, the fractions of T4 and T3 that are bound by albumin or

globulin are proportional. That means you can " deduce " a good estimate

for Free T3 by measuring Total T4 and the bound fraction of T4. So, that

is what the physicians (and evidently veterinarians, I'm finding) tend

to order. The labs get used to what the doctors order.

Chuck

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Bridan,

You wrote:

>...However at the end of the day both lab and doctor are governed by

the text

> books. ...

Not exactly. My underlying point was that we face similar limitations

outside of Ireland, although we do have some alternative choices,

provided we are willing to pay enough. The choice of the least expensive

test that will give a clue is the common approach of HMOs here. You get

similar treatment from many corporate health plans. Such plans give

economic incentives to physicians who stick to less expensive treatments

or tests, and who are willing to work in fields that are not their

specialties.

We all have horror stories.

Chuck

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Yesterday I met a " hospitalist " , an MD who only works in the hospital, very

interesting. He took my mother off all the " bad drugs " and restored her

cortef and a tiny amount of Armour. We had a discussion of TSH and what he

was taught, I expressed my disdain for endos and he said they were some of

the nicest docs. I said yeah, to you maybe. He had such a bemused look on

his face talking to me LOL.

Gracia

> Bridan,

>

> You wrote:

>

> >...However at the end of the day both lab and doctor are governed by

> the text

>> books. ...

>

> Not exactly. My underlying point was that we face similar limitations

> outside of Ireland, although we do have some alternative choices,

> provided we are willing to pay enough. The choice of the least expensive

> test that will give a clue is the common approach of HMOs here. You get

> similar treatment from many corporate health plans. Such plans give

> economic incentives to physicians who stick to less expensive treatments

> or tests, and who are willing to work in fields that are not their

> specialties.

>

> We all have horror stories.

>

> Chuck

>

>

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She certainly seems to be like a typical doctor.Arrogant and blissfully

ignorant!

Puneet

I have to say that this woman is not typical of the doctor's in our

practice but how many people like myself have went to her and came

out feeling worse than when they went in!

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Hi Bridan - I can feel that you are suffering from your experiences with

doctors - I have too - it makes you want to scream at times and really

no-one is listening except the people on these boards and hopefully our

families and partners - although unfortunately for some not even there.

I hope you find the right help - keep trying and don't be afraid to self

medicate if you have to - I did for some time out of sheer desperation

and I'm still here to tell the tale.

Now I have some half way decent doctors - I still figure out most things

myself and then do to them and try to get them to listen - sometimes it

works and sometimes not but at least they prescribe the hormones I need.

I'm glad we can be of support to each other - it has been a life saver

for me - I feel I might have gone mad otherwise.

kind regards,

Kerry

T3 only

> >

> >

> > Hi there

> >

> > I haven't posted for a while but I have found the group very

> helpful

> > and would just like to say first of all that is is great to have

> > these sort of forums because often one can feel very alone with

> this

> > condition. I live in Ireland where there is one treatment and

one

> > treatment only available and that is Eltroxin (synthetic T4).

> >

> > Just over a year ago I decided to try something else as I just

did

> > not feel well on this drug. Despite my blood results appearing

> > normal I remained unwell and no one from my GP to my

> Endocrinologist

> > could help me. So I decided to self medicate and ordered

> Tertroxin

> > (T3)from the internet. I kept my Doc informed of what I was

doing

> > and he agreed to monitor me but he would not prescribe Eltroxin

so

> > that meant taking the t3 on it's own. Tertroxin seemed to help

> some

> > of the symptoms in particular the fluid retention and my

> > depression. While on Eltroxin I had also been taking parox for

> the

> > depression which I never felt comfortable with and I eventully

had

> > to wean myself off it.

> >

> > However I still suffer from severe fatigue, muscle weakness,

joint

> > stiffness and I have chronic urine infections (I don't know if

> this

> > is related to the hypothyroidism or not). My doctor wants me to

> > start taking Eltroxin again but I would have to stop the

Tertroxin

> > and quite frankly I am not at all happy about that. At the

moment

> i

> > am not sure what to do. I noted in one of the posts that someone

> was

> > taking Novothyral and that it was a combined (T4 & T3)treatment.

I

> > had never heard of this before and does anyone know anymore

about

> it.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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  • 2 years later...

Hi Dawn,

Theres nothing wrong with Armour its a great alternative, It has 8o% T4 and 20% T3. Its the T4 that I cant seen to tolerate. Ive had T4 Thyroxine before and It made me extremely ill after 3 days and I couldn't even get up. My body couldn't use and change it to T3, and it was toxic in my system. At the same time tests revealed my cortisol levels were below the normal range. I had symptoms of Hypo and Adrenal fatigue. Dr Peatfield said the Adrenal fatigue was very bad and needed to be treated first. That's why I started to use Hyrocortisone. Eventually I could use a little Armour but only managed to get to 45mg before getting the weired head aches again. The way forward for me has definitely T3. The fluid went really quickly and also the breathlessness. I am loosing weight without really trying which is novel. No more pitting and swollen fingers and puffy eyes.

I'm a big lady,and need to loose quite a few stones. Its definitely a step in the right direction. My GP is good, but useless. Dr Peatfield is my man. He may have a clinic near where you live?.

Luv Bev

Re: T3 only

>> Hi everyone,> Haven't written for some time, however Have been reading my emailson a regular basis. Is there anyone out there who takes T3 only?. I'malso on 50mg of Hydro cortisone split dose. Since starting the T3 fourweeks ago Ive lost quite a bit of weigh without trying. I am pleasedas my very puffy pitted ankles have disappeared and I can breath somuch more easily and don't get breathless like before. I'm on 50mg. Icouldn't convert the T4 properly and only managed to get up to 45mg ofArmour before getting weird head pains. I'm under the careful eye ofDr Peatfield. I just wandered if anyone shared my experiences. I wouldlike to chat with u.>

Thanks > Bev xhi BevI am a newbie on the board. May I first say I cannot discuss yet theT3 issue which u raise, but I am hoping to be able to soon. I havebeen begging for an alternative treatment to T4 for over 18 months nowsince I found out about it on the net. I have asked the doc forArmour, but maybe T3 would be better.In your experience, what is wrongwith Armour? and how did you find out you needed cortisone? I cannnotget them to test for this. Do you think cytomel T3 topped up with a little T4 might be the besttreatment. I ask you in particular because you mention thebreathlessness which I have been living with for years and is reallyone of the worse parts of the condition. Plus of course the pittedswollen fatty body eeeeeuwww lol.Oh by the why, where is your Doc located? I might need another opinion.God BlessDawn> > > ____________

_________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. / ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ>

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Hi Dawn,

It was a NHS test at the hospital that revealed my cortisol was below normal in the mornings. At that time I didn't have a clue about Adrenal fatigue. I had a thing called a Synachen test, where they give you a high dose of a drug to stimulate your adrenals to produce cortisol and then measured the results. They said that I was OK and had responded as I should. However it turns out that you could get a response from a dead donkey. All that it indicated was I didn't have 's disease ( Adrenals totally wiped out). They don't recognize degrees of Adrenal loss of function. Anyway I had my own tests (saliva), and I persuaded my doctor to do some more blood tests. They indicated the problem remained. However my doctor said its only 18 points below the normal, he wasn't willing to prescribe Hydro cortisone without the consultants say so. Then I had slight

success with Nutri Adrenal Extra, so new it was a step in the right direction. Started taking Hydro cortisone myself before I saw Dr Peatfield after researching it for months and buying McCormach jeffries book Safe uses of Cortisone and Following Dr Peatfields protocol from his book. I did it very very gradually and got my adrenals sorted before attempting any thyroid meds again. My blood pressure is historically quite high. The hydrocortisone hasnt affected it. I'm monitoring it now I'm on T3. I don't eat a large amount, Now my metabolism has increased I'm loosing weight without trying.

Hope this is helful

Luv Bev

Re: Re: T3 only

MODERATED TO DELETE OLD MESSAGES.PLEASW REMOVE MESSAGES THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN POSTED BEFORE CLICKING SEND AND JUST LEAVE A SMALL PORTION OF WHAT YOU ARE RESPONDING TO.SHEILA____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _____I'm a big > lady,and need to loose quite a few stones. Its definitely a step in > the right direction. My GP is good, but useless. Dr Peatfield is my > man. He may have a clinic near where you live?.> Luv Bev>Well I have had a look on the group files and I see he may be having one in Leeds, my old home. Thats 85 miles away but well worth it if he does me good :). How strange you cannot tolerate T4, mind you, I don't think I convert very well at all with 175 mcg and no energy, breathlessness etc. I wondered too how he tested your adrenals, did he do blood or spital? I had 24 hour urine one once but it showed nothing.I notice the others on the

boards on T3 seem to be having great drops in blood pressure, I need that as my diastolic goes up over 110 if I come off my bp tablets. Plus a weight loss would be nice because I don't eat a lot and I am huge. (more than mike tyson lol).Oh I just long to get to a doctor who can help me.Thanks so much for the replyDawn

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Thanks for that Sheila.

Luv Bev x

Re: [thyroidpatientadvo cacy] Re: T3 only

MODERATED TO DELETE OLD MESSAGES.PLEASW REMOVE MESSAGES THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN POSTED BEFORE CLICKING SEND AND JUST LEAVE A SMALL PORTION OF WHAT YOU ARE RESPONDING TO.SHEILA____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _____I'm a big > lady,and need to loose quite a few stones. Its definitely a step in > the right direction. My GP is good, but useless. Dr Peatfield is my > man. He may have a clinic near where you live?.> Luv Bev>Well I have had a look on the group files and I see he may be having one in Leeds, my old home. Thats 85 miles away but well worth it if he does me good :). How strange you cannot tolerate T4, mind you, I don't think I convert very well at all with 175 mcg and no energy, breathlessness etc. I wondered too how he tested your adrenals, did he do blood or spital? I had 24 hour urine one once but it showed nothing.I notice the others on the

boards on T3 seem to be having great drops in blood pressure, I need that as my diastolic goes up over 110 if I come off my bp tablets. Plus a weight loss would be nice because I don't eat a lot and I am huge. (more than mike tyson lol).Oh I just long to get to a doctor who can help me.Thanks so much for the replyDawn

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  • 11 months later...

Hi Anne, I think you've got it backwards. Most T4 converts to T3 in the liver, but at other sites too, but NOT in the brain, which is why if you are given T4 alone and can't convert one of the major symptoms is forgetfulness and foggy thinking- lack of T3 in the brain. A healthy thyroid produces about 10% T3, but there is about 25% T3 in Armour which is why some folk have to add a little T4 to get the balance right. giving T4 alone stresses the convesion mechainsm so that's why after years doing apparently OK on T4 you can suddenly go downhill as the conversion mechanism fails. And as to surviving on T3 alone- It's a h*** of a lot better than trying to survive on T4!!! thyroid treatment From: anne.harding2@...Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:39:28 +0000Subject: Re: T3 Only

I used to question why we are given T4 as a t'ment when we need T3, so I am surprised to read of someone on T3 only. I have read that T3 does not cross the blood brain barrier which is why we are usually given T4, which does cross it, and as it also (usually) converts to T3 we get what we need.... Apparently, so I've read, the brain needs T4. What is true? How can someone survive on T3 only? What about her brain....?? Would like someone to explain if possible, thanksAnne

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Oh Miriam - if only this was true.

Unfortunately you can take synthetic T4 for years and years, and for one reason

or another (and there are plenty) it can suddenly stop converting and you can

get all the symptoms of hypothyroidism back. Some do fine, but many patients

find this and need to start adding either synthetic T3 or natural thyroid

extract.

Luv -

Sheila

The advantage of taking T4, if you can tolerate it, is

that the body

then continuously converts it to T3 and you get a steady stream as

required. When you take T3 in tablet form you have to experiment to

see how long it seems to last (as it varies from person to person) and

work out the optimum dosage routine.

Miriam

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Yes,

I too have read that the brain needs T4 to make it function, but it didn't work

for me and it doesn't work for a lot of sufferers. I was taking T4 and my brain

fog and short term memory became quite appalling, and it was only when I

started taking Armour with T4/T3,T2, T1 and calcitonin in that my brain

function came back to normal. I think most of the studies have been done on

rats - but somebody might be able to help us with this one who has more

scientific knowledge.

luv -

Sheila

I was sure I had read about the T3 blood brain barrier so I checked it

out. I think you may have misunderstood me, I didn't say T4

converts there, as you say it converts mostly in the liver. I understood that

because some things do not cross that barrier we need to take our replacement

in the form of T4 (which again I have read our brains need) which does cross

the BBB (blood brain barrier) but there appear to be conflicting reports with

regard to whether T3 crosses the barrier. I have only read before that it did

not which is why I asked the question. Obviously, I had wondered why we don't

just normally all take T3 as that is what we need but are prescribed T4 &

then it has to convert.... When I read about the BBB that explained it for

me, however, I'm back to wondering again if in fact T3 does cross the

BBB...???

Google scholar wants to tell me more about rats than humans....

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HI Bill - many thanks for posting these links - I think they answer our

question well. if only our doctors did a little more research, wouldn't our

lives be easier and healthier

Luv - Sheila

________________________________

" Only T4 is Transported into the Brain " : A Widespread False Belief

http://www.drlowe.com/jcl/comentry/t3entersbrain.htm

Dr. Blanchards False Beliefs About T3 Therapy

http://www.thyroidscience.com/Criticism/lowe.2008/blanchard.false.beliefs.t3

..htm

New Studies Refute an Old Objection to T3 Therapy

http://www.drlowe.com/jcl/comentry/notransthyretin.htm

T3 may be a better agent than T4 in the critically ill hypothyroid patient:

evaluation of transport across the blood-brain barrier in a primate model.

http://www.mdconsult.com/das/journal/view/N/6612428?PAGE=1.html & source=MI & AN

CHOR=abs

" These data suggest: (a) T4, T3, and reverse T3 are all capable of

bidirectional transfer across the blood brain barrier , (B) T3 may be a

better agent than T4 in treating patients with myxedema coma because T3

crosses more rapidly and more completely from serum to CSF. "

---

------------------------------------

TPA is not medically qualified. Consult with a qualified medical

practitioner before changing medication.

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Hi ,

This is awful. If you could get your thyroid treated properly

then the periods would most probably sort themselves out- don't these

docs realise the whole endocrine system is linked! I had a hysterectomy

for the same symptoms, long before this forum existed, when I was on T4

and doing very badly. I chose not to have ablation as I'd already been

treated for a 'bad' cervical smear and preferred to avoid any

recurrence.

As for worrying about his budget to try to make you feel guilty, that

is dreadful too- he should see all the pills mine prescribes- he's

probably have a fit- he isn't called Dr. Scrooge by any chance?

I assume you've looked at the adrenal questionnaire in the files and a

the other things that cam mimic hypo and give prevent the meds working?

Subject: Re: T3 Only

Hi all,

Just to add to the T3 alone topic. I have had to come off T3 only this

week as I was getting

the same side effects as I had with T4. ( Unable to walk upstairs,

straighten up after

bending over, forgetfulness... I found my self one time having gone to

the cupboard

instead of the fridge and pouring dry cat crunchies in to my tea instead

of milk and

My endo had implied that my symptoms were due to me being menopausal

which as I am

45, was fine.So I decided to mention it when I had to see the

gynecologist this week about

fibroids and heavy bleeding, and also something that's being discussed

on the list , bad

headaches around periods.

My gynecologist tugged the rug out from under my feet as she was quite

She then booked me in on the 23rd March to have abolation on my womb, to

remove the

fibroids and stop the heavy bleeding. She said if I was a decade

younger she would

prescribe hormone treatment, but not at my age.

Not even sure its too good a idea to have that sort of treatment when my

low thyroid is

not even being treated.

Just another quick note about T3 when I had to go back to my GP for more

T3 tablets, he

wasn't to happy about prescribing them as they cost the NHS £20 for 28

tablets. He said

he would as I wasn't on any other medication at the time!

reading the list I know how many others are sharing this sort of

experience with the NHS.

x

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practitioner before changing medication.

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- you

are experiencing appalling treatment. Is it possible you could see Dr Peatfield

or another specialist in thyroid disease, outside of the NHS. The NHS do not

recognise that any other conditions you are suffering could be associated with

your thyroid problem in any way - how wrong they are. There are numerous

conditions that stop your thyroid hormone from being absorbed, but they refuse

to recognise this, as your GP will not recognise the problems you are having

with your sex hormones could be related. You may need to really take your

health into your own hands because you appear to be in the hands of total

incompetents.

As you are

doing, read as much about this disease and the associated conditions as you

possibly can. Keep asking questions and don't give up until you get answers. You

obviously need to get your thyroid hormones sorted out and I should imagine by

the 29th April, you could be crawling to see this endoprat. I cannot understand

how any so called 'thyroid expert' can stop somebody's thyroid hormone

replacement without he did other tests to find what could be causing your T3 to

be giving you such symptoms. Has he never heard of toxicity - has he not done

any research to see what could be causing this toxicity?

Has your GP

even tested you to see where your oestrogen and progesterone levels are and if

so, can you post the results here together with the reference ranges for each

of the tests?

I am not

sure where your GP got the information about the cost of synthetic T3 tablets

for 28 days. All I can tell you is that it doesn't even cost the NHS that much

for 28 days of natural thyroid extract - I know because I have got the figures

direct from the prescription pricing dept. of the NHS. Anyway, if you are

deficient in a particular hormone, you need that particular hormone replacing -

is he having to pay for this out of his own pocket? Ask him to show you the

proof that T3 costs so much!

I'm so

sorry you are being put through this - but you are now in our gang, and

we will help you through it - one day, we will be able to hold our heads up

high, I wonder where they will hangs?

Luv -

Sheila

When I contacted my endo he advised me to come off T3 straight away and I am

now

waiting until 29th April to see him again!

Just another quick note about T3 when I had to go back to my GP for more T3

tablets, he

wasn't to happy about prescribing them as they cost the NHS £20 for 28 tablets.

He said

he would as I wasn't on any other medication at the time!

x

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,

You wrote:

> ... I have had to come off T3 only this

> week as I was getting

> the same side effects as I had with T4. ( Unable to walk upstairs,

> straighten up after

> bending over, forgetfulness...

Those are symptoms of under dosing, not side effects. That suggest you

might do well on T4, if you just get enough. Given the continuing horror

stories on this list about common medical practices in the UK, this may

be unlikely. Perhaps your physicians would be willing to try it, since

the T4 is cheaper.

Chuck

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Hi

I

know for a fact that it does NOT cost the NHS £100 for 28 days tablets of

liothyronine (T3). I have just written to the Prescriptions Pricing Division of

the NHS asking them to give me the true cost to the NHS of T3 and will let you

know as soon as they respond. They usually take some time, so please be

patient. Was it your GP who told you it cost this much - and if so, please ask

him where he got such information.

Luv -

Sheila

I have to apologize to all as I am so brian fogged I typed the wrong amount it

was an

error on my part about the price of T3 its £100 for 28 tablets. So it is very

costly and I

think that's why my GP was uncomfortable prescribing it.

I

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Hi Jo

- this is wonderful news so thank you. I just knew that neither synthetic T4

(which I know the price of anyway) or synthetic T3 would cost more than Armour

Thyroid, USP. Isn't it strange that in the USA the cost of thyroxine is more

than Armour, and in the UK it is the other way round.

However,

from the latest statement from all the endocrinology societies, headed by the

BTA, it wouldn't surprise me if the price of T3 did mysteriously shoot up to

£100 for 28 tablets.

Luv -

Sheila

Hi All, the basic cost of T3 tablets to the NHS as

written in the British National Formulary for Sept 2008 is £9.15 for 28 tablets

of 20mcg.

Even though we are now in Feb 2009 I dont suppose they will cost more than £10

for 28.

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Sheila,

You wrote:

>

> ... Isn't it strange that in the USA the

> cost of thyroxine is more than Armour, and in the UK it is the other way

> round.

Perhaps it is because Forest uses Midwestern (US) pork glands, while the

synthetics can be made locally. For you, Armour is imported.

Chuck

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Hi a,

You'll need to stop the T4 for a few days( 5 should halve the

amount in your body) before starting the T3, as T3 goes into the system

immediately, otherwise you could go hyper and frighten your self. Take

it very slowly if you have never taken T3 before- you will still have a

cushion from the reducing amounts of T4 for the first week or so.

You can expect low/zero T4 result and highish t3 and low/zero TSH.

But is can be almost miraculous stuff to get you brain back!!

Subject: Re: T3 Only

Hi guys,

I Posted origanllly about enodo prescribing T3 only.

I must say that having read everyones different responses about T3, I

amost bottled out of the whole thing as v convernecd about the blood

brain barrier thing.

younger.

Will let you know how I get on with the T3 only.

Just one question though, wWhat blood test results can I expect with

T3 only, as apposed to T4 only. My GP is to monitor my blood test

results but I think he willl be out of his depth with T3.

I guess there will be a cross over when stopping the T4 and starting

the T3.

Cheers.

a

------------------------------------

TPA is not medically qualified. Consult with a qualified medical

practitioner before changing medication.

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Major

snowfall here too (in the Pennines). We have 8 inches now, car cannot be moved

- road blocked, and now it's freezing.

however,

back to business - remember when you next have your blood drawn for a thyroid

function test you must NOT take ANY T3 for at least 24 hours before hand.

otherwise, because T3 has a short half life and it 'spikes' in the blood a

couple of hours or so after you take it, you would probably get a VERY high

Free T3 reading and your GP would probably have a fit and decide there and then

you are going HYPERthyroid and cut down your dose. However, once stabilised on

T3 only, this should show a very suppressed TSH, FT4 in the upper third of the

reference range and FT£ near to the top of the reference range.

Luv -

Sheila

Just one question though, wWhat blood test results can I expect with

T3 only, as apposed to T4 only. My GP is to monitor my blood test

results but I think he willl be out of his depth with T3.

PS Major snow fall here. May need to call on Rudoph and his

raindeers so I can get to work tomorrow.

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