Re: question about T4

[Guest guest]

Gail,

You wrote:

> ... Assuming I can convince him that I need indepth testing,

> I imagine I would want to be at my pre-pill status when that testing

> is done? ...

Actually you don't want pre-pill status, for several reasons. First, if

you are symptomatic, all you may need is just a minor adjustment of your

dosage based on your current TSH reading. If you are going for the full

bank of other tests, the levothyroxin dosage can still be taken into

account in planning a change in either dosage or medications. You don't

need to go back to square one.

Finally, your body cannot return to your true pre-pill status for over a

month, a month of severe symptoms, some of which could cause permanent

damage.

> ... So, my question is-- how long would it take for all the T4

> supplement to leave my body?

The average reported biological half life for T4 is about six days.

However, it varies with your health and activity level. You need about

6-10 half lives to reduce to a minimally measurable level. That amounts

to over a month.

If your thyroid is still producing, even partially, the chemical

feedback loop will first anticipate its response to the rapidly dropping

level, which can lead a carefully balanced system to a temporary

hyperthyroid condition and then to an even faster (and more symptomatic)

drop. This is called a paradoxical oscillation, and it is not something

to mess around with. Even a temporary hyperthyroid condition can trigger

cardiac problems.

I have read about this in the literature, but I am curious whether

anyone on the list has experienced temporary hyper- symptoms on missing

a dose or two. My sister told me she had, which is why I came to find

out about it.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

<<I have read about this in the literature, but I am curious whether

anyone on the list has experienced temporary hyper- symptoms on missing

a dose or two. My sister told me she had, which is why I came to find

out about it.>>

Hi Chuck,

With my busy life lately I missed a dose on my daughter's graduation day --

didn't notice any difference during the day but oh boy when I tried to go to

sleep that night I was wired but tired and very paranoid --awful! could of been

because I didn't have much sleep the night before and was running off the rails

all day!

take care,

Re: question about T4

Gail,

You wrote:

> ... Assuming I can convince him that I need indepth testing,

> I imagine I would want to be at my pre-pill status when that testing

> is done? ...

Actually you don't want pre-pill status, for several reasons. First, if

you are symptomatic, all you may need is just a minor adjustment of your

dosage based on your current TSH reading. If you are going for the full

bank of other tests, the levothyroxin dosage can still be taken into

account in planning a change in either dosage or medications. You don't

need to go back to square one.

Finally, your body cannot return to your true pre-pill status for over a

month, a month of severe symptoms, some of which could cause permanent

damage.

> ... So, my question is-- how long would it take for all the T4

> supplement to leave my body?

The average reported biological half life for T4 is about six days.

However, it varies with your health and activity level. You need about

6-10 half lives to reduce to a minimally measurable level. That amounts

to over a month.

If your thyroid is still producing, even partially, the chemical

feedback loop will first anticipate its response to the rapidly dropping

level, which can lead a carefully balanced system to a temporary

hyperthyroid condition and then to an even faster (and more symptomatic)

drop. This is called a paradoxical oscillation, and it is not something

to mess around with. Even a temporary hyperthyroid condition can trigger

cardiac problems.

I have read about this in the literature, but I am curious whether

anyone on the list has experienced temporary hyper- symptoms on missing

a dose or two. My sister told me she had, which is why I came to find

out about it.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

,

You wrote:

>... oh boy when I tried to go to sleep that night I was wired but

tired and very

>paranoid --awful! ...

That sounds like it.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

thats scarey sounding

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interstitial-Cystitis

www.misskimberly.com

Re: question about T4

> Gail,

>

> You wrote:

>

> > ... Assuming I can convince him that I need indepth testing,

> > I imagine I would want to be at my pre-pill status when that testing

> > is done? ...

>

> Actually you don't want pre-pill status, for several reasons. First, if

> you are symptomatic, all you may need is just a minor adjustment of your

> dosage based on your current TSH reading. If you are going for the full

> bank of other tests, the levothyroxin dosage can still be taken into

> account in planning a change in either dosage or medications. You don't

> need to go back to square one.

>

> Finally, your body cannot return to your true pre-pill status for over a

> month, a month of severe symptoms, some of which could cause permanent

> damage.

>

> > ... So, my question is-- how long would it take for all the T4

> > supplement to leave my body?

>

> The average reported biological half life for T4 is about six days.

> However, it varies with your health and activity level. You need about

> 6-10 half lives to reduce to a minimally measurable level. That amounts

> to over a month.

>

> If your thyroid is still producing, even partially, the chemical

> feedback loop will first anticipate its response to the rapidly dropping

> level, which can lead a carefully balanced system to a temporary

> hyperthyroid condition and then to an even faster (and more symptomatic)

> drop. This is called a paradoxical oscillation, and it is not something

> to mess around with. Even a temporary hyperthyroid condition can trigger

> cardiac problems.

>

> I have read about this in the literature, but I am curious whether

> anyone on the list has experienced temporary hyper- symptoms on missing

> a dose or two. My sister told me she had, which is why I came to find

> out about it.

>

> Chuck

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Girlie wrote:

> thats scarey sounding

It is. Don't skip your meds or get off of them suddenly, unless you have

a proper substitute.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Holy Cow!! You got my attention on that one-- THANKS for the possible

life-saving information! I have only ever had one TSH test, which

showed me in the top 1/3 of the reference range, so I am going to ask

for the full battery, and I will now of course stay on what I am

currently taking-- and which I know is just now starting to help my

muscles and ligaments. I have been symptomatic for 40 years, and

basically housebound for the past several months. I've been too

depressed to want to go anywhere anyway. Now I'm starting to be more

hopeful.

I have dogs with AIT, and it would take about a month for it to leave

their bodies too, according to the literature. Once, about 6 years

ago, I ran out of pills for my hypothyroid bitch, and she had none

for four days. By the end of the third day, all the signs (edginess,

hyperactivity) were back again. I have never let any hypothyroid dog

miss pills since then. Dogs get them twice a day though. It also

takes about a month for the supplement to reach cellular level in

dogs, though I have often seen some improvement of symptoms within a

week. Also, like people, dogs are under-diagnosed, and most vets have

not got the foggiest notion-- but spout off as though they did.:-(

Gail

In hypothyroidism , Chuck Blatchley

<cblatchl@p...> wrote:

> Gail,

>

> You wrote:

>

> > ... Assuming I can convince him that I need indepth testing,

> > I imagine I would want to be at my pre-pill status when that

testing

> > is done? ...

>

> Actually you don't want pre-pill status, for several reasons.

First, if

> you are symptomatic, all you may need is just a minor adjustment of

your

> dosage based on your current TSH reading. If you are going for the

full

> bank of other tests, the levothyroxin dosage can still be taken

into

> account in planning a change in either dosage or medications. You

don't

> need to go back to square one.

>

> Finally, your body cannot return to your true pre-pill status for

over a

> month, a month of severe symptoms, some of which could cause

permanent

> damage.

>

> > ... So, my question is-- how long would it take for all the T4

> > supplement to leave my body?

>

> The average reported biological half life for T4 is about six days.

> However, it varies with your health and activity level. You need

about

> 6-10 half lives to reduce to a minimally measurable level. That

amounts

> to over a month.

>

> If your thyroid is still producing, even partially, the chemical

> feedback loop will first anticipate its response to the rapidly

dropping

> level, which can lead a carefully balanced system to a temporary

> hyperthyroid condition and then to an even faster (and more

symptomatic)

> drop. This is called a paradoxical oscillation, and it is not

something

> to mess around with. Even a temporary hyperthyroid condition can

trigger

> cardiac problems.

>

> I have read about this in the literature, but I am curious whether

> anyone on the list has experienced temporary hyper- symptoms on

missing

> a dose or two. My sister told me she had, which is why I came to

find

> out about it.

>

> Chuck

[Guest guest]

Gail,

You wrote:

> ... I have dogs with AIT, and it would take about a month for it to leave

> their bodies too, according to the literature. ...

Interesting. How common is this in dogs? Are they a good model for humans?

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Chuck, I have experienced this in all it's glory. Not a pretty

site. I went to the dr. with heart palps when it was time for a

follow up TSH test. I had been on synthroid for 6 weeks at the

time. He told me to quit taking the synthroid for 6 weeks and come

back in for more testing. My TSH had dropped from 6.5 to 4.6 in

the first 6 weeks. I had heart palps during the next 3 weeks when I

was off the meds to the point of fitfully sleeping in a recliner for

2 weeks. I tried several supplements to relieve them since he had

not listened the first time. His response to the heart palps

was " you wouldn't understand the thyroid, it's all in your head,

everybody has them, " Finally I started taking the left over

prescription and called the office back for further instructions and

a renewed prescription and more tests if needed. The palps were

getting better on the low dose. Nurse told me after not returning

my call for several days that if I wouldn't follow instructions

completely they couldn't help me. I didn't get to talk to the dr.

The drs. suggestion according to the nurse was to stay off meds for

6 more weeks, retest. I decided to see another dr. I had begun

meds slowly, and was gradually building up. I was not back to the

original 25 mcg but was at half the dose. Didn't want to have to

start over. Most of my problems were adrenal from 20 years of

undiagnosed hypo. I also suspect my hypo is hashi's and comes and

goes. New dr. gave me a presc. for the 25 mcg for a year! I am due

to go back for more testing. I am doing much better but still have

some nagging side effects I'm not happy with. My gums bleed a lot,

common according to the dentist, hair is thinning all over my body.

That is a positive in some ways but scary in others. I still have

muscle aches and pains. My bp still gets pretty low and then my

heart pounds. I haven't been able to lose any of the weight even

though I watch carefully what I eat and watch my hubby lose while

eating much more than me.

Glad to hear someone else say that you don't have to go back to pre-

pill status. That was my reasoned conclusion, and I think I can

understand what I read about thyroid!

I did go into the hyper thyroid symptoms originally when the heart

palps started and had not missed any doses. Not real sure why

unless it was too much too quick for the adrenals. I have reacted

to other meds the same way, have it recorded on my chart, and no one

ever suspected the adrenals or offered help.

Needless to say, I don't have a lot of faith in drs. I have seen

several over the last 20 years and a lot of the symptoms should have

led to testing and diagnosis of hypo. I was always told it was

normal, whatever that is. I also suspect many of my family have

suffered from hypo and some still do, another reason to suspect

hashi's. I am also in the midst of menopause during the last 5

years, again many symptoms which should have led to a hypo

diagnosis. Joan

>

> Finally, your body cannot return to your true pre-pill status for

over a

> month, a month of severe symptoms, some of which could cause

permanent

> damage.

>

> > ... So, my question is-- how long would it take for all the T4

> > supplement to leave my body?

>

> The average reported biological half life for T4 is about six

days.

> However, it varies with your health and activity level. You need

about

> 6-10 half lives to reduce to a minimally measurable level. That

amounts

> to over a month.

>

> If your thyroid is still producing, even partially, the chemical

> feedback loop will first anticipate its response to the rapidly

dropping

> level, which can lead a carefully balanced system to a temporary

> hyperthyroid condition and then to an even faster (and more

symptomatic)

> drop. This is called a paradoxical oscillation, and it is not

something

> to mess around with. Even a temporary hyperthyroid condition can

trigger

> cardiac problems.

>

> I have read about this in the literature, but I am curious whether

> anyone on the list has experienced temporary hyper- symptoms on

missing

> a dose or two. My sister told me she had, which is why I came to

find

> out about it.

>

> Chuck

[Guest guest]

gum bleeding has a lot to do with not enough vitamin C---and flossing-

-(once worked for a perio guy) try extra C and floss once a day--it

will help a bit!!!! --also really good is the baking soda toothpaste--

helps with the bacteria that causes some problems---just fyi--tina

[Guest guest]

this is adrenal, and your doc ignored it.

Gracia

> Chuck, I have experienced this in all it's glory. Not a pretty

> site. I went to the dr. with heart palps when it was time for a

> follow up TSH test. I had been on synthroid for 6 weeks at the

> time. He told me to quit taking the synthroid for 6 weeks and come

> back in for more testing. My TSH had dropped from 6.5 to 4.6 in

> the first 6 weeks. I had heart palps during the next 3 weeks when I

> was off the meds to the point of fitfully sleeping in a recliner for

> 2 weeks. I tried several supplements to relieve them since he had

> not listened the first time. His response to the heart palps

> was " you wouldn't understand the thyroid, it's all in your head,

> everybody has them, "

[Guest guest]

not sure about AIT, but many dogs become hypo after spaying (just like

humans). I have some info about it here somewhere.

Gracia

> Gail,

>

> You wrote:

>

> > ... I have dogs with AIT, and it would take about a month for it to

leave

> > their bodies too, according to the literature. ...

>

> Interesting. How common is this in dogs? Are they a good model for humans?

>

> Chuck

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Joan,

You wrote:

> ... His response to the heart palps

> was " you wouldn't understand the thyroid, it's all in your head,

> everybody has them, " ...

Perhaps that was a common response for the victims, er, patients he

treated. I never had palpitations at all. My Mom only had them when the

drug company changed formulas and didn't tell anyone, causing widespread

over dosing. My sister only had them when she missed her dose for a day.

I surely hope you found better care.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Tina,

You wrote:

> gum bleeding has a lot to do with not enough vitamin C---and flossing-

> -(once worked for a perio guy) try extra C and floss once a day--it

> will help a bit!!!! --also really good is the baking soda toothpaste--

> helps with the bacteria that causes some problems-- ...

Also get plenty of sleep and finish each meal with a piece of cheese,

whether you brush afterwards or not.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Yes and the first time we did a complete thyroid profile on one of

our bitches(except for TgAA which was not available then) about 1990,

which was about the time anything more than T4 checks became

available for dogs, I asked the vet to explain what the new

components were about. He told me he wasn't going to explain, as I

wouldn't be able to understand it anyway... I never went back to that

vet, and I certainly did find out for myself. Nowadays I have a

wonderful vet (takes me an hour and a half to get to her) who treats

clients with respect, and never has patronized me. She reminds me

that vets nor doctors know everything-- that they are human just like

everybody else. Funny how these kinds of doctors/vets, who can admit

they don't know everything, but will find out for you, or help you

find the resources towards further learning yourself, that treat

patients/clients with respect-- those are the best, and you can put

your trust in them. They seem to be rare though...

Gail

In hypothyroidism , Chuck Blatchley

<cblatchl@p...> wrote:

> Joan,

>

> You wrote:

>

> > ... His response to the heart palps

> > was " you wouldn't understand the thyroid, it's all in your head,

> > everybody has them, " ...

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gail,

You wrote:

> ... Funny how these kinds of doctors/vets, who can admit

> they don't know everything, but will find out for you, or help you

> find the resources towards further learning yourself, that treat

> patients/clients with respect-- those are the best, and you can put

> your trust in them. ...

In my experience, many of the very best diagnosticians do NOT have

particularly outstanding people skills. Thus, the very best situation

from the patient's perspective is to find two of them in partnership.

One will figure out what is wrong and what needs to be done; the other

to translate and spend time discussing options with you. It probably is

very rare to find both skill sets in one individual.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Any theories about the mode of transmission in humans? As a dog

breeder, this obsesses me of course, and I have done as much pedigree

research as possible. There are theories in canine AIT-- the most

prevalent being " recessive " . I did read " polygenic " somewhere, but I

don't believe that. The canine researcher I respect most, tells

me " incomplete dominant " and I firmly believe she is right. I am

wondering if it's the same for humans, and I just have the feeling it

might be. I expect it's just called " familial " at this point, in

humans, as it is in dogs?

Gail

My Mom only had them when the

> drug company changed formulas and didn't tell anyone, causing

widespread

> over dosing. My sister only had them when she missed her dose for a

day.

>

> I surely hope you found better care.

>

> Chuck

[Guest guest]

I don't have the luxury of shopping around for doctors, as I have

done with vets. Therefore I am here on this list, and self-medicating

at this point. However, as I need to stay alive, and with some

modicum of health and mobility, I will do what I can for my own self-

preservation. Egroups are wonderful for learning.:-)

Gail

>

> > ... Funny how these kinds of doctors/vets, who can admit

> > they don't know everything, but will find out for you, or help

you

> > find the resources towards further learning yourself, that treat

> > patients/clients with respect-- those are the best, and you can

put

> > your trust in them. ...

>

> In my experience, many of the very best diagnosticians do NOT have

> particularly outstanding people skills. Thus, the very best

situation

> from the patient's perspective is to find two of them in

partnership.

> One will figure out what is wrong and what needs to be done; the

other

> to translate and spend time discussing options with you. It

probably is

> very rare to find both skill sets in one individual.

>

> Chuck

[Guest guest]

Interesting. My son has bleeding gums, but I know he needs adrenal/thyroid

hormones. He is a very handsome man, who looks awful to me. What can I

do, to get him to take the thyroid/adrenal thing seriously? If I forward

info from the net he deletes it.

Gracia

>

> Also get plenty of sleep and finish each meal with a piece of cheese,

> whether you brush afterwards or not.

>

> Chuck

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I hate to say this but the dogs get much better treatments, tests,

drugs and care than us humans!!!!!!!!!! --it's all over the web--also

for Cushings--it's really amazing!!!

> >

> > > ... Funny how these kinds of doctors/vets, who can admit

> > > they don't know everything, but will find out for you, or help

> you

> > > find the resources towards further learning yourself, that

treat

> > > patients/clients with respect-- those are the best, and you can

> put

> > > your trust in them. ...

> >

> > In my experience, many of the very best diagnosticians do NOT

have

> > particularly outstanding people skills. Thus, the very best

> situation

> > from the patient's perspective is to find two of them in

> partnership.

> > One will figure out what is wrong and what needs to be done; the

> other

> > to translate and spend time discussing options with you. It

> probably is

> > very rare to find both skill sets in one individual.

> >

> > Chuck

[Guest guest]

I have heard the worst stories about dogs and Cushings. I think cushings

should be treated with DHEA instead of adrenal destruction.

Gracia

> I hate to say this but the dogs get much better treatments, tests,

> drugs and care than us humans!!!!!!!!!! --it's all over the web--also

> for Cushings--it's really amazing!!!

>

[Guest guest]

I know how you feel but I keep on going at it with M---she is going

to camp again instead of coming home. She says she really enjoys it

and would not just want to sit around the house and rest. Since her

last appt. with her endo --chuck she went off drugs for 6 weeks and

her numbers were very low, but tsh was up to .4 (from .02)---so you

are right in the respect that her body was trying to function

somewhat on it's own and maybe longer we would have a higher tsh

number since that is supressed once you are on thyroid drugs ( in her

case)---but she could not wait any longer, finals were this past week

and she must of felt the stress of it all. So she went back on her

armour.

And Gracia she is afraid to allow her adreanls to go back to the old

state--so she takes her support and glandulars for those as well.

Makes a difference for her. And one she can understand and take

easily.

But still some weight gain and hair loss. She is a very pretty girl

and it does hurt a lot to see your kids sick. I am hoping on this new

amount of 2 grains a day she will get better results on her tests.

And find her balance.

The digestive enzymes have been a huge help, skin, bathroom--ect. is

much better. So I think it's just a matter of time for her to reach

her balance.

Her temp. are normal now as well as BP. ---try other things for

adrenal they do work, slower but at least you maybe able to get your

son to take them. Isocort is such a small pill--but it packs a punch

that you can feel!! even adrenal support vitamins really work---M

takes those and can tell when she does not---she really tests herself

with all of these supplements!!!! going off them and back on all the

time---makes me very crazy!!! but she is stubborn!!!

>

> Interesting. My son has bleeding gums, but I know he needs

adrenal/thyroid

> hormones. He is a very handsome man, who looks awful to me. What

can I

> do, to get him to take the thyroid/adrenal thing seriously? If I

forward

> info from the net he deletes it.

> Gracia

>

> >

> > Also get plenty of sleep and finish each meal with a piece of

cheese,

> > whether you brush afterwards or not.

> >

> > Chuck

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

You could very well be right. I haven't done enough research (have

never owned or bred a dog with Cushings), but it does depend on

whether adrenal or pituitary Cushings. It could be either, and

treatments are dependent on that.

Gail

>

> I have heard the worst stories about dogs and Cushings. I think

cushings

> should be treated with DHEA instead of adrenal destruction.

> Gracia

>

> > I hate to say this but the dogs get much better treatments, tests,

> > drugs and care than us humans!!!!!!!!!! --it's all over the web--

also

> > for Cushings--it's really amazing!!!

> >

[Guest guest]

Tina,

Just as for us, it depends on the medical caregiver's knowledge and

expertise. Plus dogs have a further problem, in that they have to

depend on their owners to do the best things for them. They can't do

it themselves. There are plenty of undiagnosed dogs with hypoT out

there. And there are plenty of vets who depend on a T4 to diagnose

it. And there are even more owners and vets who wait for what they

perceive as " signs " before checking anything. Plenty of dogs have

died, and continue to die, because nobody ever diagnosed their hypoT,

or said they don't have the " signs " .

Gail

> I hate to say this but the dogs get much better treatments, tests,

> drugs and care than us humans!!!!!!!!!! --it's all over the web--

also

> for Cushings--it's really amazing!!!

>

>

[Guest guest]

what if you CANT floss i know i ahve oncoming periodontal disease

Re: question about T4

> gum bleeding has a lot to do with not enough vitamin C---and flossing-

> -(once worked for a perio guy) try extra C and floss once a day--it

> will help a bit!!!! --also really good is the baking soda toothpaste--

> helps with the bacteria that causes some problems---just fyi--tina

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gracia? Do you know much about cortrysyn stimulation test known as ACTH and how

reliable it is for picking up any mild to moderate adrenal insuffiency (non

addisons)?

Chris

Re: Re: question about T4

I have heard the worst stories about dogs and Cushings. I think cushings

should be treated with DHEA instead of adrenal destruction.

Gracia

> I hate to say this but the dogs get much better treatments, tests,

> drugs and care than us humans!!!!!!!!!! --it's all over the web--also

> for Cushings--it's really amazing!!!

>