Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Just once in the mornings here. Bev Every <denisee@...> wrote: Does anyone here divide up their thyroid medication into two doses per day, like morning and evening? The reason I wonder is because when they give thyroid replacement to dogs, it's a twice-daily dosage. (They use a synthetic version of thyroxine for dogs). However, in my years in medicine I've never seen it prescribed to people that way, and wondered if it might be beneficial for some people (maybe all of us?) to do it that way, it might provide more stable blood levels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 , You wrote: > Does anyone here divide up their thyroid medication into two doses per day, .... You have to meet the requirement of one hour before and at least two hours after eating. That's a bit easier to do with dogs, especially if they only eat once per day, at exactly the time you control. The difference should be marginal, anyway, because the half-life of T4 is so long, and much of it is bound with thyroid binding globulin. We have discussed before that drawing blood for TSH tests before or after taking your daily dose of T4 does not matter. If you take something with T3 in it, it will. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Chuck, Are you saying if you take a T3 med. you would have to delay your blood work or not take the med. until after the blood work? Bev Chuck B <cblatchl@...> wrote: , You wrote: > Does anyone here divide up their thyroid medication into two doses per day, .... You have to meet the requirement of one hour before and at least two hours after eating. That's a bit easier to do with dogs, especially if they only eat once per day, at exactly the time you control. The difference should be marginal, anyway, because the half-life of T4 is so long, and much of it is bound with thyroid binding globulin. We have discussed before that drawing blood for TSH tests before or after taking your daily dose of T4 does not matter. If you take something with T3 in it, it will. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 bev wrote: > Chuck, > Are you saying if you take a T3 med. you would have to delay your blood work or not take the med. until after the blood work? > It depends on what you mean by blood work. For TSH only, it doesn't matter much, but Free T3 will definitely change almost immediately after taking it. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 That really makes me wonder why vets prescribe it twice a day for the dogs. Re: Split your dose? > , > > You wrote: > >> Does anyone here divide up their thyroid medication into two doses per >> day, ... > > You have to meet the requirement of one hour before and at least two > hours after eating. That's a bit easier to do with dogs, especially if > they only eat once per day, at exactly the time you control. The > difference should be marginal, anyway, because the half-life of T4 is so > long, and much of it is bound with thyroid binding globulin. > > We have discussed before that drawing blood for TSH tests before or > after taking your daily dose of T4 does not matter. If you take > something with T3 in it, it will. > > Chuck > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 , You wrote: > That really makes me wonder why vets prescribe it twice a day for the dogs. I found it: http://www.inkabijou.co.uk/thyroiddisease.htm . The biological half life of T4 in dogs is only 10-12 hours, while in humans it is nearly a week. That makes all the difference. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Thanks for looking it up, Chuck.... I didn't realize there would be such a huge variation in the half life in different mammals. Re: Split your dose? > , > > You wrote: > >> That really makes me wonder why vets prescribe it twice a day for the >> dogs. > > I found it: > > http://www.inkabijou.co.uk/thyroiddisease.htm . > > The biological half life of T4 in dogs is only 10-12 hours, while in > humans it is nearly a week. That makes all the difference. > > Chuck > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Every wrote: > Thanks for looking it up, Chuck.... I didn't realize there would be such a > huge variation in the half life in different mammals. Neither did I. I suspected it might be as short as a couple of days but not 12 hours. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 The half-life of T4 in the dog is only 10 to 12 hours--unlike in humans. Dogs also get relatively more of it. I give my 80 lb. dog 8 mg. in the morning, and 8 mg at suppertime, for a total of 16 mg per day. I do consistently put the pills into their meals though, so they aren't getting as much use out of it as if I gave it to them an hour before meals. It's easier this way, as we have a dozen or so dogs. I have never asked our canine thyroid expert why dogs get so much more than we do, but I assume it's because their digestive processes are faster than ours, their guts shorter. Gail In hypothyroidism , " Every " <denisee@c...> wrote: > That really makes me wonder why vets prescribe it twice a day for the dogs. > > > > Re: Split your dose? > > > > , > > > > You wrote: > > > >> Does anyone here divide up their thyroid medication into two doses per > >> day, ... > > > > You have to meet the requirement of one hour before and at least two > > hours after eating. That's a bit easier to do with dogs, especially if > > they only eat once per day, at exactly the time you control. The > > difference should be marginal, anyway, because the half-life of T4 is so > > long, and much of it is bound with thyroid binding globulin. > > > > We have discussed before that drawing blood for TSH tests before or > > after taking your daily dose of T4 does not matter. If you take > > something with T3 in it, it will. > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Ooops, I should have read more posts before I answered this myself. Any question about autoimmune or thyroid in dogs, Dr. Dodds will have the explanation. We also start dogs on the recommended dose for their size--not working their way up in stages. You want to take over the thyroid's function fully, no matter what stage of depletion they are at, or even if the process hasn't got hold. As soon as you see AA's, the dog starts medication, even if the rest of the profile is well within the ref range -- because we know that dogs don't feel well, from the moment the AA's start. (I believe it is probably the same for people). That is supposed to stop the autoimmune process, and if the dog has to be taken off for any reason, whatever function it had, will still be there. I once started a bitch on full thyroid replacement when the rest of her profile was well within range-- except her T4 which was OVER the ref range--ie, she would have been called hyperthyroid. She was TgAA Positive though. What was happening, was that her thyroid was pushing out more and more T4, in an ultimately vain attempt to keep ahead of the autoantibodies. So, I started her immediately on full replacement dosage, which stopped any more action by her own thyroid. Interesting, eh? Gail In hypothyroidism , Chuck B <cblatchl@p...> wrote: > , > > You wrote: > > > That really makes me wonder why vets prescribe it twice a day for the dogs. > > I found it: > > http://www.inkabijou.co.uk/thyroiddisease.htm . > > The biological half life of T4 in dogs is only 10-12 hours, while in > humans it is nearly a week. That makes all the difference. > > Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Hi, Are you & your dog hypothyroid? Bev & Gail on <harrison@...> wrote: The half-life of T4 in the dog is only 10 to 12 hours--unlike in humans. Dogs also get relatively more of it. I give my 80 lb. dog 8 mg. in the morning, and 8 mg at suppertime, for a total of 16 mg per day. I do consistently put the pills into their meals though, so they aren't getting as much use out of it as if I gave it to them an hour before meals. It's easier this way, as we have a dozen or so dogs. I have never asked our canine thyroid expert why dogs get so much more than we do, but I assume it's because their digestive processes are faster than ours, their guts shorter. Gail In hypothyroidism , " Every " <denisee@c...> wrote: > That really makes me wonder why vets prescribe it twice a day for the dogs. > > > > Re: Split your dose? > > > > , > > > > You wrote: > > > >> Does anyone here divide up their thyroid medication into two doses per > >> day, ... > > > > You have to meet the requirement of one hour before and at least two > > hours after eating. That's a bit easier to do with dogs, especially if > > they only eat once per day, at exactly the time you control. The > > difference should be marginal, anyway, because the half-life of T4 is so > > long, and much of it is bound with thyroid binding globulin. > > > > We have discussed before that drawing blood for TSH tests before or > > after taking your daily dose of T4 does not matter. If you take > > something with T3 in it, it will. > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Gail, I agreed, Dr. Dodds is *the* expert for dog thyroid issues. I've also thought it very interesting that dogs are started right out on their full dose, whereas with people it's never done that way. >>She was TgAA > Positive though. What was happening, was that her thyroid was pushing > out more and more T4, in an ultimately vain attempt to keep ahead of > the autoantibodies. So, I started her immediately on full replacement > dosage, which stopped any more action by her own thyroid. > Interesting, eh?>>> VERY interesting... really makes me wonder about possible correlations in people! Re: Split your dose? > Ooops, I should have read more posts before I answered this myself. > Any question about autoimmune or thyroid in dogs, Dr. Dodds will have > the explanation. We also start dogs on the recommended dose for their > size--not working their way up in stages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 I am hypothyroid (though I have not yet been diagnosed by anybody except myself) and five of my dogs are also hypothyroid. Gail > Hi, > Are you & your dog hypothyroid? > Bev > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 > Gail, > > I agreed, Dr. Dodds is *the* expert for dog thyroid issues. Ray Nachreiner at MSU has his followers too.:-) But he thinks AIT is a recessive, and I disagree. So does Dr. Dodds. > > I've also thought it very interesting that dogs are started right out on > their full dose, whereas with people it's never done that way. I did once read on the emedicine site that for those people who don't have heart problems, it is OK to start on full replacement. > > >>> > VERY interesting... really makes me wonder about possible correlations in > people! Me too! I can't imagine any Dr. having the nerve to start someone with Grave's, on full replacement thyroid hormone though. My sister's daughter got RAI instead. > > > > > > > Re: Split your dose? > > > > Ooops, I should have read more posts before I answered this myself. > > Any question about autoimmune or thyroid in dogs, Dr. Dodds will have > > the explanation. We also start dogs on the recommended dose for their > > size--not working their way up in stages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 I don't like to do it, makes me feel icky. Doesn't make sense to divide a T4 dose. Gracia > Does anyone here divide up their thyroid medication into two doses per day, like morning and evening? > > The reason I wonder is because when they give thyroid replacement to dogs, it's a twice-daily dosage. (They use a synthetic version of thyroxine for dogs). > > However, in my years in medicine I've never seen it prescribed to people that way, and wondered if it might be beneficial for some people (maybe all of us?) to do it that way, it might provide more stable blood levels? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 --- I think it would be too much of a problem , because, remember, like, calcium can not be taken at least 5 hours prior and after taking thyroid, I can take thyroid first thing in the morning, and, after 5 hrs pass, I can take my calcium supplements, which is 1200 mg divided by 2, so, one at about noon, another about in the eve, the second dosage of thyroid would complicate everything. Also, thinks like coffe, if you drink one coffee cup, or 2, you want it to be away from the thyroid dose. Also, I have no problems taking my daily morning dose, I hgave my thyroid meds in front of my face every morning, but, a second dose increases the chances of forgetting it, or mixing it w food, .I read somewhere the 2 doses was in a way mimicking the bodies production, but, since our bodies are no longer producing it, it is not that important, remember, thyroid accumulates, what ever dose you took about 30 days ago is what is running you today. I will dig into it, but, for practicall reasons, one dose is better Masiste>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In hypothyroidism , " Gracia " <circe@g...> wrote: > > I don't like to do it, makes me feel icky. Doesn't make sense to divide a > T4 dose. > Gracia > > > Does anyone here divide up their thyroid medication into two doses per > day, like morning and evening? > > > > The reason I wonder is because when they give thyroid replacement to dogs, > it's a twice-daily dosage. (They use a synthetic version of thyroxine for > dogs). > > > > However, in my years in medicine I've never seen it prescribed to people > that way, and wondered if it might be beneficial for some people (maybe all > of us?) to do it that way, it might provide more stable blood levels? > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Gail, We had our ian Ridgeback tested as you recommended, but it came up normal. About a month later, he " blew out " a knee trying to jump into a pickup. We have been nursing him with glucosamine-chondroitin and anti-inflammatories, but the vet has suggested we spring for an $1,800 surgery that I am told will still leave him limping nearly as much as he is now. Could this, plus his arthritis and lethargy, still be thyroid connected? BTW, the higher dose of T4 they need simply goes with the shorter half life of T4. Their systems convert and eliminate so much faster, the supply must be correspondingly bigger. Their buckets all have much bigger holes than ours. That simply means the enzymes that perform the conversions exist at a higher concentration. Body temperature will also affect the reaction rates. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 If you start people on a full dose, and it turns out to be excessive, they will have the risks of being hyperT for days, if they are observant, and possibly for weeks. With a dog, that would only last for a few hours. Hopefully, the person given them such meds would notice and adjust. Also, with the much higher elimination rate, the window for the euthyroid condition will be much larger. It will actually be harder to overdose them. As in horse shoes, close counts. Not so with humans, where the boundary between hypoT and hyperT is very narrow. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Masiste, You wrote: > -... remember, > thyroid accumulates, what ever dose you took about 30 days ago is > what is running you today. ... Technically, only about 1/16 of your 30 day old dose is still around, but that is still a lot more than a dog would have. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Cruciate ligament problems are a possible symptom of hypoT. Thyroid's the first thing to check with cruciate problems. I have the same problem myself, so I know how he has been feeling. I never try to jump into a pick-up though, partly because I'm totally aware that would blow my knee.:-) Lethargy is classic of course. The " arthritis " may actually be " fibromyalgia " . My 80-lb. English Setter (taking T4) has fibro (Glucosamine didn't help him at all) but I have been giving him 50 mcg selenium/day in the hopes that would help conversion. He's almost eleven and has cancer as well, so we are leaving it at that. If he were younger and healthier, I would get him some T3 to go with it. But my ES boy Louie and I walk much alike. I know from his movement, the way he can stretch his legs, and from his occasional " pony " (meaning he's pleased about something)that his hips are excellent. It's not his joints. We never intended to breed from him, so I have not OFA'd his hips, but I know the lines, and I would recognize hip dysplasia. Louie has fibromyalgia, just like me. I never saw results of your RR's thyroid check. However, just like with people, unless you have someone reading it who knows what to look for... Plus, it doesn't always show up in the profile. My vet is excellent, and she would advise, if there's any doubt, a 12-week therapeutic trial is in order, and if he gets better, you have your answer. You also need to remember that even with just the T4 part (we do by equilibrium dialysis) a young dog's T4 should be in the upper 1/2 to 1/3. I should have remembered the bucket.:-/ And of course, dogs do run a higher temp than humans. Dogs average 101.5 to 102 degrees. It all makes sense. Gail > Gail, > > We had our ian Ridgeback tested as you recommended, but it came up > normal. About a month later, he " blew out " a knee trying to jump into a > pickup. We have been nursing him with glucosamine-chondroitin and > anti-inflammatories, but the vet has suggested we spring for an $1,800 > surgery that I am told will still leave him limping nearly as much as he > is now. > > Could this, plus his arthritis and lethargy, still be thyroid connected? > > BTW, the higher dose of T4 they need simply goes with the shorter half > life of T4. Their systems convert and eliminate so much faster, the > supply must be correspondingly bigger. Their buckets all have much > bigger holes than ours. That simply means the enzymes that perform the > conversions exist at a higher concentration. Body temperature will also > affect the reaction rates. > > Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Gail, You wrote: > Cruciate ligament problems ... That's the one! I'll request the numbers. Thanks, Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Hi Masiste, If whatever dose of Armour you take about 30 days ago is what is running in the body today, how come I felt a drastic reaction within days when my doc cut my Armour dose from 1 grain to .5 grain? Much love, Pamela > > -... remember, > > thyroid accumulates, what ever dose you took about > 30 days ago is > > what is running you today. ... > Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail./mailtour.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Gail.... Do you have any references/links regarding a connection between cruciate ligament problems and hypothyroidism? I'd be very interested in reading further on it. Re: Split your dose? > Cruciate ligament problems are a possible symptom of hypoT. Thyroid's > the first thing to check with cruciate problems. I have the same > problem myself, so I know how he has been feeling. I never try to > jump into a pick-up though, partly because I'm totally aware that > would blow my knee.:-) Lethargy is classic of course. The " arthritis " > may actually be " fibromyalgia " . My 80-lb. English Setter (taking T4) > has fibro (Glucosamine didn't help him at all) but I have been giving > him 50 mcg selenium/day in the hopes that would help conversion. He's > almost eleven and has cancer as well, so we are leaving it at that. > If he were younger and healthier, I would get him some T3 to go with > it. But my ES boy Louie and I walk much alike. I know from his > movement, the way he can stretch his legs, and from his > occasional " pony " (meaning he's pleased about something)that his hips > are excellent. It's not his joints. We never intended to breed from > him, so I have not OFA'd his hips, but I know the lines, and I would > recognize hip dysplasia. Louie has fibromyalgia, just like me. I > never saw results of your RR's thyroid check. However, just like with > people, unless you have someone reading it who knows what to look > for... Plus, it doesn't always show up in the profile. My vet is > excellent, and she would advise, if there's any doubt, a 12-week > therapeutic trial is in order, and if he gets better, you have your > answer. You also need to remember that even with just the T4 part (we > do by equilibrium dialysis) a young dog's T4 should be in the upper > 1/2 to 1/3. > I should have remembered the bucket.:-/ And of course, dogs do run a > higher temp than humans. Dogs average 101.5 to 102 degrees. It all > makes sense. > Gail > > >> Gail, >> >> We had our ian Ridgeback tested as you recommended, but it > came up >> normal. About a month later, he " blew out " a knee trying to jump > into a >> pickup. We have been nursing him with glucosamine-chondroitin and >> anti-inflammatories, but the vet has suggested we spring for an > $1,800 >> surgery that I am told will still leave him limping nearly as much > as he >> is now. >> >> Could this, plus his arthritis and lethargy, still be thyroid > connected? >> >> BTW, the higher dose of T4 they need simply goes with the shorter > half >> life of T4. Their systems convert and eliminate so much faster, the >> supply must be correspondingly bigger. Their buckets all have much >> bigger holes than ours. That simply means the enzymes that perform > the >> conversions exist at a higher concentration. Body temperature will > also >> affect the reaction rates. >> >> Chuck > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 and Gail, You wrote: > Gail.... > > Do you have any references/links regarding a connection between cruciate > ligament problems and hypothyroidism? ... I just talked to my vet, who confirmed that hypothyroid animals are at risk for cruciate ligament damage. It goes along with the arthritis and general joint lubrication problems. They only checked the T4 and FreeT4. Not the panel I wanted. He said the antibody test (combined with TSH) costs $79, but that he would be willing to try the therapeutic dose trial for a few weeks. That's cheaper than the test. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Chuck, have you considered sending your dog's thyroid panel to Dr. Dodds? Your vet could just draw the bloods and mail them to her and she'd do the testing. Re: Re: Split your dose? > and Gail, > > You wrote: > >> Gail.... >> >> Do you have any references/links regarding a connection between cruciate >> ligament problems and hypothyroidism? ... > > I just talked to my vet, who confirmed that hypothyroid animals are at > risk for cruciate ligament damage. It goes along with the arthritis and > general joint lubrication problems. > > They only checked the T4 and FreeT4. Not the panel I wanted. He said the > antibody test (combined with TSH) costs $79, but that he would be > willing to try the therapeutic dose trial for a few weeks. That's > cheaper than the test. > > Chuck > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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