Lactic Acid

[Guest guest]

,

From what I can remember from physiology class, lactic acid occurs in the

muscles of everyone, as a byproduct of glucose metabolism, after exercise.

That's what gives the " burn " when exercising, and the soreness for a few days

after overdoing it, in healthy people. There must be something more to the

Australian research. Maybe it happens at a much faster rate in CFS

sufferers. I know that I feel poisoned, and sore all the time.

Barb

[Guest guest]

This is an interesting observation. I also get that lactic acid burning

feeling. I their anything that helps the body eliminate lactic acid.

thanks

Steve

> Re: lactic acid

>

>

> From: KB46@...

>

> ,

> From what I can remember from physiology class, lactic acid occurs in the

> muscles of everyone, as a byproduct of glucose metabolism, after exercise.

>

> That's what gives the " burn " when exercising, and the soreness for a few

> days

> after overdoing it, in healthy people. There must be something more to the

>

> Australian research. Maybe it happens at a much faster rate in CFS

> sufferers. I know that I feel poisoned, and sore all the time.

>

> Barb

>

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[Guest guest]

thank for your post on lactic acid. I there anything you can take to help

the body get rid of lactic acid.

Thanks

Steve

> lactic acid

>

> I learned from taking the bicycle test with gas analysis (oxygen and CO2)

> at Dr. Cheney's clinic that our aerobic energy pathway is usually

> moderately to significantly damaged. To compensate, our anaerobic energy

> pathway is actually better developed and stronger than normal. We start

> out using the aerobic pathway (using oxpgen to produce energy) as is

> normal, but we transition much sooner than normal to anaerobic metabolism.

> This is a much older system in the body and much less efficient - less

> energy and more toxic byproducts. One of the byproducts of anaerobic

> metabolism is lactic acid. After minimal exercise we often have the same

> amount of lactic acid built up as a runner who has just finished a long

> race. One way the body deals with the build up of lactic acid to breathe

> heavily - somehow it's part of the process of breaking it down or getting

> rid of it. All this extra lactic acid from minimal exertion is why we

> often have air hunger. When I was at my worst, I would suddenly find

> myself starved for air and taking many deep breaths. My local doctor said

> it was a panic attack. I knew it wasn't, but I didn't know what it was

> until I had this test and had it explained to me.

>

> Please keep in mind that the above is what my often fuzzy brain remembers

> of Dr. Cheney's explainations. I think I got it right, but if anyone has

> any corrections, please share them.

>

> All the best, Carol

[Guest guest]

Paraphrasing Cecil's Textbook of medicine

Lactic acid is produced in muscle, red blood cells, and other tissues as a

result of anaerobic glycolysis (glucose). Lactic Acid is reduced by NAD by

lactic acid dehydrogenase to pyruvate and NADH. Cellular respiration involves

mito oxidation of pyruvate and NADH to CO2 and H20. If this process is

impaired lactic acidosis occurs. This is a nonvolatile organic acid..cant be

breathed off, needs the kidney.

Occurs with impaired 02 delivery to the tissues. Shock.

Serum lactate levels elevate with vigorous exercise.. the difference between

this and acidosis is that lactat/pyruvate and NADH/NAD ratios are normal.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/27/2000 6:57:48 AM Pacific Standard Time,

KenL@... writes:

<< NADH is one of the few documented supplements that helps CFS.... and this

explains why... >>

But not everyone Ken, not everyone! NADH just made me feel really jittery.

Couldn't tolerate it. Coq10 on the other hand I find helpful. How does

coq10 fit into all of this?

[Guest guest]

NADH is one of the few documented supplements that helps CFS.... and this

explains why...

Next quest: Sources for NAD and pyruvate (or what components in it)

Thank you!

Re: lactic acid

From: Seenmedusa@...

Paraphrasing Cecil's Textbook of medicine

Lactic acid is produced in muscle, red blood cells, and other tissues as a

result of anaerobic glycolysis (glucose). Lactic Acid is reduced by NAD by

lactic acid dehydrogenase to pyruvate and NADH. Cellular respiration involves

mito oxidation of pyruvate and NADH to CO2 and H20. If this process is

impaired lactic acidosis occurs. This is a nonvolatile organic acid..cant be

breathed off, needs the kidney.

Occurs with impaired 02 delivery to the tissues. Shock.

Serum lactate levels elevate with vigorous exercise.. the difference between

this and acidosis is that lactat/pyruvate and NADH/NAD ratios are normal.

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This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/27/00 1:58:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,

onelist writes:

> For

> example why would some one who has been athletic their whole life

> suddenly be unable to properly eliminate lactic acid -- and why wouldn't

> this problem resolve itself with rest and the reduction of exercise?

Steve, I presume it is the lack of oxygen. Oxygen is essential for EVERY

cellular

mechanism and the process that reduces lactic acid I'm sur requires it too.

I feel a lactic acid buildup everyday, especially in the morning. It is

exactly

how I felt the next day when I used to play racquetball, except now the

previous

day the only thing I have done is go to work, come home and read this list.

Mike

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/27/00 1:58:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,

onelist writes:

> Consider this scenario:

> Blood is slow down .... rate of lactic acid production doubles or

more

> because less oxygen is available...

> rate of lactic acid removal is halfed because of slow blood...

>

> What slows down blood? Coagulation....

> I suspect lactic acid is also pH sensitive for removal...

OK. But if RBCs are deformed and not carrying oxygen properly, why would

hypercoag even be involved? Ken, I think you are trying to bring hypercoag

into

every theory and use it as part of your explanations when it isn't warranted.

The fact that you responded positively to aspirin within 72 hours shows that

while it MAY have thinned your blood (but unlikely enuf to cause major

symptom relief), there is no way aspirin in that short of a period could have

affected the fibrin buildup in your arteries. If it had, you would have

'herxed'

from the trapped bugs, and felt worse during the first 72 hours, not better.

My bet is that the aspirin reduced your NO levels.

Mike

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/27/00 6:30:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,

MCamp10139@... writes:

<< OK. But if RBCs are deformed and not carrying oxygen properly, why would

hypercoag even be involved? Ken, I think you are trying to bring hypercoag

into

every theory and use it as part of your explanations when it isn't warranted

>>

In 1999 (sorry, don't have the issue) of Cell, o Lusso, an expert of HHV6

from Italy (once worked with Gallo) found the DC46 is a cellular receptor for

HHV6. That cell is involved in hypercoagulation, human reproduction, as well

as leukemia and malignant tumors.

Gail

[Guest guest]

... well... coagulation may be the reason that they are deformed... " diced and

sliced by coagulation fibers " ...

The presentations at recent conferences cites a 90% rate of at least one

significant form of coagulation for CFS patients tested. Many people report

difficulty drawing blood which disappears when they started aspirin (and their

energy level went up)

Personal experience: Bromelain is known to dissolve fibrin. Both Laurie and I

have significant fine control the degree of herxing that we are subjecting

ourselves to by varying the bromelain level. I was on aspirin and doxcyc with

herxing stopping after 2 weeks, changing to bromelain started the herxing within

a day.

Aspirin does NOT affect fibrin ... only platettes -- and I appeared to have had

a very high level of platette activation - hence the change from 30% of normal

(being the best prior ) to over 70-80% of normal in 72 hours. The degree of

control over herxing that bromelain provides suggests that it is affecting

fibrin that is shielding the mycoplasma (or..) from the antibiotics.

I've seen the NO theory -- and it may be 'true' (but a side effect of other

things... for example: saying CFS is caused by a surplus of lactic acid would be

'true' -- but saying that CFS is caused by poor delivery and release of Oxygen,

resulting in X, Y,Z and double the normal rate of lactic acid production because

of the absence of adequate oxygen is also true. For me, the item that has the

most explanations of (A,B,C,D,....Z) resulting from the least number of things

is the BEST. Poor delivery and release of Oxygen explains all of the CFS

symptoms that are shared with Hypoxnia (including the insomnia). NO may be one

of the reasons for poor delivery and release, but it seems less direct than

talking about CO2 via Hale Breathing or high pH blood (Bohr Effect) or

coagulation (slow moving blood) or low red blood cells count (less transport

units). All of the others, have a direct method of " attack " . Reducing NO levels

and reducing Lactic Acid provides improvement of symptoms -- but I don't see a

direct attack on the cause of the NO levels (with lactic acid, the direct attack

is raising O2 delivery and release).

Herxing from anticoagulation is NOT common -- it is not an issue or experience

of the folks doing anti-coagulation protocol. Likely the increase flow and the

suffication of mycoplasma are in better balance so the toxins do not build up as

much. Also, remember that mycoplasma are closely related DNA wise to organism

that 'spores' and could hiberate when given oxygen shock instead of dying on the

spot and releasing toxins ...

.... but the bottom line is not which model is right, but whether what it

suggests helps! That's why I use the word MODEL always --- it is simply a way of

connecting the pieces that allows predictions to be made about what may also

help. I find the 'trinity-model': [Coagulation, Mycoplasma, Alkaline Blood]

drives >>simple<< explanations of a lot of symptoms and findings .... The

alkaline blood could be dropped if there was firm evidence that Mycoplasma

produces enough Ammonia (or other suitable chemicals) to turn the blood alkaline

... I am perfectly happy to be totally wrong but cured.

:-)

Ken

----- Original Message -----

From: MCamp10139@...

OK. But if RBCs are deformed and not carrying oxygen properly, why would

hypercoag even be involved? Ken, I think you are trying to bring hypercoag

into every theory and use it as part of your explanations when it isn't

warranted.

The fact that you responded positively to aspirin within 72 hours shows that

while it MAY have thinned your blood (but unlikely enuf to cause major

symptom relief), there is no way aspirin in that short of a period could have

affected the fibrin buildup in your arteries. If it had, you would have

'herxed'

from the trapped bugs, and felt worse during the first 72 hours, not better.

My bet is that the aspirin reduced your NO levels.

Mike

[Guest guest]

The presentations at recent conferences cites a 90% rate of at least one

significant form of coagulation for CFS patients tested. Many people report

difficulty drawing blood which disappears when they started aspirin (and

their energy level went up)

[Patti:] It is not that simple for many. Berg says that in the PWCs that

are very hypercoag aspirin won't make much of a dent. I've been taking

aspirin (1/day - ever since I read DWs stuff) and only feeling worse. A PWC

friend of mine is also taking aspirin and getting no recognisable benefit

(also techs still having trouble drawing blood). I used to take bromelain

several years ago but stopped when I could observe no benefit (don't

remember how much I was taking, but seemed like a lot). I have not taken

them together however.

and I appeared to have had a very high level of platette activation - hence

the change from 30% of normal (being the best prior ) to over 70-80% of

normal in 72 hours

[Patti:] How did you measure this?

[Guest guest]

>From: MCamp10139@...

>

But if RBCs are deformed and not carrying oxygen properly, why would

>hypercoag even be involved? Ken, I think you are trying to bring hypercoag

>into

>every theory and use it as part of your explanations when it isn't

warranted.

It was my understanding that one of the first steps of the immune/cytokine

cascade is hypercoagulation in this type of immune disorder, perhaps to

varying degrees for different people. This is from independent research (I

will try to come up with a URL - now to backtrack and find the article(s) I

read this in. : / )

[Guest guest]

Good question for the memory... It was either on the distance that I could walk

without after effects on two days in a row or length of time that I could

concentrate/work on the computer with no difficulty. Without digging thru my

notes, I don't recall but the low point was ~ 2% of normal (maximum walking

distance of 100 yards)... I recall working off on the rower for 30 minutes for

several days in a row, keeping a very good clip, reading 200 pages in a book

with no hassle (could rarely finish a newspaper story before).

I will see if I can did up my 'yard stick' tomorrow

----- Original Message -----

From: Skari, M

and I appeared to have had a very high level of platette activation - hence

the change from 30% of normal (being the best prior ) to over 70-80% of

normal in 72 hours

[Patti:] How did you measure this?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/29/00 3:24:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,

onelist writes:

> Subject: Re: Re:Lactic Acid/ C.C.s site/ Mike/ Patti's question

>

> OK - so what does one DO about the high Lactic Acid ???

My bet is that you should increase your RBC health. More magnesium,

Epogen, procrit. I don't know how to get more oxygen to the muscles.

I think that is the $64,000,000 question.

Mike

[Guest guest]

I wonder what Michele Akers does -- I think one thing that one can do is get a

messuage after exercise.

Steve

MCamp10139@... wrote:

> From: MCamp10139@...

>

> In a message dated 1/29/00 3:24:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> onelist writes:

>

> > Subject: Re: Re:Lactic Acid/ C.C.s site/ Mike/ Patti's question

> >

> > OK - so what does one DO about the high Lactic Acid ???

>

> My bet is that you should increase your RBC health. More magnesium,

> Epogen, procrit. I don't know how to get more oxygen to the muscles.

> I think that is the $64,000,000 question.

>

> Mike

>

> ---------------------------

[Guest guest]

Ken

I have no doubt it's helped some but for me it was the most expensive

urine I've ever made.

Phil

Ken Lassesen wrote:

> From: " Ken Lassesen " <KenL@...>

>

> NADH is one of the few documented supplements that helps CFS.... and

> this explains why... Next quest: Sources for NAD and pyruvate (or what

> components in it) Thank you!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/16/01 10:28:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,

bullocks@... writes:

<< Creatine Monohydrate should help. Steve B. >>

Whey helped my lactic acid problem.

[Guest guest]

Creatine Monohydrate should help. Steve B.

lactic acid

> Any recommendations on what would be helpful to reduce lactic acid?

>

> I get really bad muscle pain and fatigue, not just after simple exercise,

but just from going out to do a couple of errands. I get one day of getting

out to do a couple of things and then pay for it for the longest time -

anywhere from days to weeks.

>

> I'd hate to think that I could never get out, or even do something a

little more physical at home like cleaning. Hopefully, there's something

that can help.

>

> Thanks in advance for any info,

> Phoenix

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Raise whatever body part is burning above the heart, to help drain it out.

Also massage helps.

Jim

[Guest guest]

,

What kind of whey, are you on Immunocal/Pro? Or is it a regular whey protein?

Whey helped my lactic acid problem.

[Guest guest]

Phoenix,

But do we know that this reaction is lactic acid? I think this is a very

important thing to research and don't know any doc who is researching

this, as to whether we build it up abnormally fast (with very little

activity we produce what an athlete might) or whether we can't get rid of

the normal amounts.

But we don't know this. That is the problem. One of the problems I

think re the come-what-may anarchy in ME research. Because we have no

centralized research plan , where " we " isn't patients by a body of

clinicians and basic scientists devoted to this illness. This is where

our docs' org have fallen down miserably (that AACFS thing) and the NIH.

I too am very interested in the lactic acid mechanism as a possible one

for the terrible exhuastion and pain, but I can't say with confidence

that it is. Do you know something I don't?

Judith

On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:18:13 -0500 " phoenix " <phoenixx@...> writes:

> Any recommendations on what would be helpful to reduce lactic acid?

>

> I get really bad muscle pain and fatigue, not just after simple

> exercise, but just from going out to do a couple of errands. I get

> one day of getting out to do a couple of things and then pay for it

> for the longest time - anywhere from days to weeks.

>

> I'd hate to think that I could never get out, or even do something a

> little more physical at home like cleaning. Hopefully, there's

> something that can help.

>

> Thanks in advance for any info,

> Phoenix

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Judith,

I don't know if the post exertion pain and exhaustion is lactic acid. It might

be part of the story.

When trying to explain my symptoms to others, I've often used the example of a

marathon runner - who can do the run, but might hit that " brick wall " that I've

heard them describe - where suddenly they cannot run anymore, or how someone

will feel the effects of a work-out the day after. So, I thought it's possible

that I may have a more extreme version of this. Another thing is, that I've

been deficient in vitamins and minerals for a long time , so I'm probably

deficient in amino acids too. There's one more thing that makes me want to

reduce lactic acid. I find epsom salt balts very very helpful, I've read that

they reduce lactic acid, if that's what they're doing that helps give me relief,

then maybe taking something orally will help keep it under control. Even if

it's not the whole picture, and something will reduce my pain even a little -

I'll take it!

I really don't know anyhtining more, I'm just experimenting, and I thought amino

acids would be safe enough to do so with.

Take care,

Phoenix

From: Judith F Wisdom

But do we know that this reaction is lactic acid?

I too am very interested in the lactic acid mechanism as a possible one

for the terrible exhuastion and pain, but I can't say with confidence

that it is. Do you know something I don't?

[Guest guest]

Phoenix,

I really appreciate your taking time on this. I feel similarly btw; but

I'd dearly love " them " to do more concrete research on this issue and

wondered if you were basing your assumptions on more than I am. Thanks.

Judith

On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:45:22 -0500 " phoenix " <phoenixx@...> writes:

> Judith,

>

> I don't know if the post exertion pain and exhaustion is lactic

> acid. It might be part of the story.

>

>\ When trying to explain my symptoms to others, I've often used the

> example of a marathon runner - who can do the run, but might hit

> that " brick wall " that I've heard them describe - where suddenly

> they cannot run anymore, or how someone will feel the effects of a

> work-out the day after. So, I thought it's possible that I may have

> a more extreme version of this. Another thing is, that I've been

> deficient in vitamins and minerals for a long time , so I'm probably

> deficient in amino acids too. There's one more thing that makes me

> want to reduce lactic acid. I find epsom salt balts very very

> helpful, I've read that they reduce lactic acid, if that's what

> they're doing that helps give me relief, then maybe taking something

> orally will help keep it under control. Even if it's not the whole

> picture, and something will reduce my pain even a little - I'll take

> it!

>

> I really don't know anyhtining more, I'm just experimenting, and I

> thought amino acids would be safe enough to do so with.

>

> Take care,

>

> Phoenix

>

>

>

> From: Judith F Wisdom

>

> But do we know that this reaction is lactic acid?

>

> I too am very interested in the lactic acid mechanism as a

> possible one

> for the terrible exhuastion and pain, but I can't say with

> confidence

> that it is. Do you know something I don't?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nothing if you have CFS!!

Mike C.

> If you have a problem evacuating lactic acid what can you do? The

one thing

> I of heard of is deep muscle massage and plenty of fluid. Is there

anything

> else one can do?

>

> thanks

>

> Steve

[Guest guest]

hi all -

Mike C Wrote:

> Nothing if you have CFS!!

>

>

> > If you have a problem evacuating lactic acid what can you do? The

> one thing

> > I of heard of is deep muscle massage and plenty of fluid. Is there

> anything

> > else one can do?

I wonder if " nothing..... " is really true? If you can up your

glutathione levels, wouldn't that help flush the excess out at a faster

rate?

Judith G