Low WBC

[Guest guest]

:

This is ONLY our experience. We're lucky in that is very reliable with

her WBC counts. If her count is above 14,000 (14), she always has something

bacterial going on. If it's above 16,000 (16) it's something big. If her

count is below 5,500 (5.5), she always has a virus. The lowest it has ever

been was I think 3,200 (3.2). When she gets better her count comes back up.

I'm so grateful she's so reliable! But please remember this is only OUR

experience!

There are issues about neutropenia with low WBCs but I know absolutely

nothing about this.

(mom to , age 3. Currently has polysaccharide antibody def,

previously had transient IgG, IgA, t-cell & other defs)

[Guest guest]

sounds viral. Did they do a differential?

Ursula Holleman

Macey's mom (7 yr. old with CVID, asthma, sinus disease, GERD, Sensory

Integration Disorder, Diabetes Insipidus, colonic

inertia)

http://maceyh.home.att.net

/

[Guest guest]

thanx for the input. has his IVIG today and the nurse drew more

blood. I'm looking forward to seeing what his newest labs show.

Re: low wbc

> :

>

> This is ONLY our experience. We're lucky in that is very reliable

with

> her WBC counts. If her count is above 14,000 (14), she always has

something

> bacterial going on. If it's above 16,000 (16) it's something big. If her

> count is below 5,500 (5.5), she always has a virus. The lowest it has ever

> been was I think 3,200 (3.2). When she gets better her count comes back

up.

> I'm so grateful she's so reliable! But please remember this is only OUR

> experience!

>

> There are issues about neutropenia with low WBCs but I know absolutely

> nothing about this.

>

> (mom to , age 3. Currently has polysaccharide antibody def,

> previously had transient IgG, IgA, t-cell & other defs)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

viral.

Ursula Holleman

Macey's mom (7 yr. old with CVID, asthma, sinus disease, GERD, Sensory

Integration Disorder, Diabetes Insipidus, colonic

inertia)

http://maceyh.home.att.net

/

" If normal wbc is 6.0 - 17.5 could 4.1 indicate bacterial or is it mostly

viral?

[Guest guest]

viruses can lower WBCs as can bacterial infections...it depends on what is

the cause...i.e. the organism...

pattie

-- low wbc

Can anyone tell me the significance of a low wbc: 4.1?

[Guest guest]

if he has a bacterial infection and a low WBC, the bands should be high....

.. my boys have low WBCs all the time.. 2.9-3.1 is their normal WBC. I

have some files on WBCs, etc...will send when I get a chance...

pattie

-- low wbc

No diff. but his sed rate was <.30 but his mpv was slightly high at 11.5. He

has had a " congested " cough in the a.m. and now he has a " nasally " voice. If

normal wbc is 6.0 - 17.5 could 4.1 indicate bacterial or is it mostly viral?

[Guest guest]

let's try this again.

low wbc

Ursulla,

I received 's results are back. On July 2, his wbc was 4.1 on July

22 it was 3.8. He's pretty tired with little appetite. Do you think this is

some kind of virus that will take care of itself or should he be followed up

with his pediatrician? I hate to waste a trip if it's just a virus. All other

labs were fine. Thanx a million for your input.

[Guest guest]

- viruses can linger and cause the WBC to stay low. What you want to

make sure of is that there isn't too much

of a neutrophil dip on the differential and that his hemoglobin isn't affected

too bad by such an extended illness. The

next CBC he has I would ask for a differential to be done.

Ursula Holleman

Macey's mom (7 yr. old with CVID, asthma, sinus disease, GERD, Sensory

Integration Disorder, Diabetes Insipidus, colonic

inertia)

http://maceyh.home.att.net

/

[Guest guest]

--

Aundrea's wbc has always been elevated during a flare. I hope that

they are able to provide you with some answers soon. Glad to hear the

fevers are gone today.

(drea 9 systemic)

- In , " maryamjn " <maryamjn@y...> wrote:

>

> I'm sorry that I keep posting with all of these obscure questions

....

> but the doctors can't seem to figure out what is going on, so I'm

> just wondering if anyone here may have experienced something

> similar. For a quick update - Layla started having fevers again

last

> week, just as we completely weaned her off of the steroids. At

first

> we thought it was a cold, but when the fevers continued and got

> worse, we took her in and sure enough her blood work was all out of

> wack again. Her sed rate, CRP, ferratin, DDimer,were all high. The

> strange part is her white blood cell count was low and went

extermely

> low, making her neutropenic, over the weekend. We started her on

> Naprosyn on Friday, and she hasn't had a fever since (knock on

> wood). Her white blood cell count is going back up, but the doctors

> are very confused as to why this happened. They did a bone marrow

> check a couple of months ago and everything looked fine, but now

they

> are talking about checking again to make sure nothing has changed.

> Anyhow, just thought I'd check in here and see if anyone else has

> seen a drop in WBC with a flare? Thanks!

> am (mom to Layla, 17 mo., possible systemic JRA)

[Guest guest]

Madison's WBC has always been High during a flare never low.

Low WBC

I'm sorry that I keep posting with all of these obscure questions ...

but the doctors can't seem to figure out what is going on, so I'm

just wondering if anyone here may have experienced something

similar. For a quick update - Layla started having fevers again last

week, just as we completely weaned her off of the steroids. At first

we thought it was a cold, but when the fevers continued and got

worse, we took her in and sure enough her blood work was all out of

wack again. Her sed rate, CRP, ferratin, DDimer,were all high. The

strange part is her white blood cell count was low and went extermely

low, making her neutropenic, over the weekend. We started her on

Naprosyn on Friday, and she hasn't had a fever since (knock on

wood). Her white blood cell count is going back up, but the doctors

are very confused as to why this happened. They did a bone marrow

check a couple of months ago and everything looked fine, but now they

are talking about checking again to make sure nothing has changed.

Anyhow, just thought I'd check in here and see if anyone else has

seen a drop in WBC with a flare? Thanks!

am (mom to Layla, 17 mo., possible systemic JRA)

[Guest guest]

I am sorry that Layla is still having so many problems. Robbie's WBC have

always been high during a flare - and in the high range most of the time because

of the steriods - but close to normal when not flaring. I hope you have been

able to get some answers from the docs.

Val

Rob's Mom (7,systemic)

In a message dated 1/24/2005 1:41:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, " maryamjn "

<maryamjn@...> writes:

>

>

>I'm sorry that I keep posting with all of these obscure questions ...

>but the doctors can't seem to figure out what is going on, so I'm

>just wondering if anyone here may have experienced something

>similar.  For a quick update - Layla started having fevers again last

>week, just as we completely weaned her off of the steroids.  At first

>we thought it was a cold, but when the fevers continued and got

>worse, we took her in and sure enough her blood work was all out of

>wack again.  Her sed rate, CRP, ferratin, DDimer,were all high.  The

>strange part is her white blood cell count was low and went extermely

>low, making her neutropenic, over the weekend.  We started her on

>Naprosyn on Friday, and she hasn't had a fever since (knock on

>wood).  Her white blood cell count is going back up, but the doctors

>are very confused as to why this happened.  They did a bone marrow

>check a couple of months ago and everything looked fine, but now they

>are talking about checking again to make sure nothing has changed.

>Anyhow, just thought I'd check in here and see if anyone else has

>seen a drop in WBC with a flare?  Thanks!

>am (mom to Layla, 17 mo., possible systemic JRA)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" natellite " <natellite@...> wrote:

>

> I have subclinical hypothyroid (normal TSH but it fluctuates

> between 2.06-2.86) and the only time my WBC went up

> to normal was when I took thyroid meds for 2 yrs.

> When I went off the thyroid meds my WBC

> dropped back down below normal levels again.

> WBC does not indicate chronic viral infection although

> I feel viral all the time now since

> increasing my vitamin D levels.

>

> Nat

You're hypothyroid by standards of the internet thyroid communities

since 15 yrs now. TSH over 2.0 is hypo. Normal person has TSH

1.5-1.65. A well medicated hypothryoid person has a TSH of 0.5-1.0

or sometimes lower. FreeT4 and freeT3 are also tested and

need to be in the upper third of reference range, and

thyroid antibodies (the reference ranges are too generous and

miss some real autoimmune thyroid cases).

Google or amazon: Shomon thyroid.

Carol W.

willis_protocols

See also my Links>Hormones>Thyroid folder.

[Guest guest]

carol

something interesting happened to me.

my throid labs in march 2008 were as follows

tsh 0.87

ft3 215

ft4 1.13

than i started using about 30-40 mg of selenium daily per your advise.

also started taking some little amounts of iodine daily

i started taking some thyroid glandular when i feel well-not too often-

increased my cortisol support by couple of mg's

started taking energy therapy from a healer.

Not sure which one of these effected my thyroid functioning but my latest

lab result came out as

tsh 2

ft3 310

ft4 0.92

how would you interpret this?

is this improvement or worsening?

bw

nil

[Guest guest]

Nil writes:

> my throid labs in march 2008 were as follows

>

> tsh 0.87

> ft3 215

> ft4 1.13

>

> than i started using about 30-40 mg of selenium daily ...

I suspect you intend to say 30-45 *mcg* selenium,

i.e. about half of the daily requirement of 70 mcg,

most of which we usually get from food. Selenium supps

of 200 mcg are very common today, and I think that is too

high for many people.

Selenium can contribute to T4->T3 conversion (with some

Hashi hypothyroid people being exceptions).

> also started taking some little amounts of iodine daily

Amount? when people say " iodine " today, or " a little

iodine " , it's impossible to know what they mean in terms of

amount. 150 mcg is the daily requirement, though some thyroid

patients cannot do this amount without autoimmune thyroid

aggravation. 1000 mcg (1 mg) is the World Health Organization

toxic limit. Many today are doing high iodine of 6 mg, 12 mg,

25 mg, 50 mg, or 100 mg, and calling this simply " iodine "

rather than HIGH iodine. So we have quite a range of

possibilities here...

High iodine is well known for raising TSH for a few months,

then supposedly it comes back down.

(I'm not a fan of high iodine usage.)

Not knowing how much iodine you were using, it's hard to say

what's going on here. Iodine can play havoc in Hashimoto's

though, and much depends on the individual and amount taken.

> i started taking some thyroid glandular when i feel

> well-not too often-

I'm not familiar with non-rx thyroid gladulars, and

whether the one you took contain any hormone. Or if you

may be referring to a rx thyroid glandular.

Armour thyroid med is porcine thyroid and of course loaded

with hormone. An example of a Rx thyroid " glandular " , but

also delivering a precise amount of both T4 and T3 etc.

> increased my cortisol support by couple of mg's

Are you referring here to an ACE (adrenal cortical extract)

that contains cortisol hormone? Normal cortisol does help

thyroid get into cells, but this is a question of degree.

> started taking energy therapy from a healer.

>

> Not sure which one of these effected my thyroid

> functioning but my latest lab result came out as

>

> tsh 2

> ft3 310

> ft4 0.92

Need to cite reference ranges here since they vary by lab.

Any or all of the substances you took could have affected

thyroid functioning.

> how would you interpret this?

> is this improvement or worsening?

> bw

> nil

It appears that the selenium probably did raise freeT3.

You don't state whether you have Hashi, but that can be

aggravated by iodine in daily requirment amounts and higher,

then TSH *can* then go higher and freeT4 lower. Normally, freeT3

would go lower as well as the thyroid slowly burns out fully

or partially over time in Hashi.

However you were also doing selenium concurrently.

So, a very mixed bag results. Many variables were changed at

once.

You also don't state how you feel, comparatively.

---

" adrenalfatigue " group talks about adrenal and thyroid

hormones in detail as its focus.

Carol W.

willis_protocols

[Guest guest]

Hi Carol

> I suspect you intend to say 30-45 *mcg* selenium,

>

yes that was mcg's.

>

>> also started taking some little amounts of iodine daily

>

>

>

> Not knowing how much iodine you were using, it's hard to say

> what's going on here. Iodine can play havoc in Hashimoto's

> though, and much depends on the individual and amount taken.

>

>

about 300 mcg.

>

>

> Are you referring here to an ACE (adrenal cortical extract)

> that contains cortisol hormone? Normal cortisol does help

> thyroid get into cells, but this is a question of degree.

>

Yes,i am talking about ace's.

>

>

>

>

> Need to cite reference ranges here since they vary by lab.

Carol, really too tired to transfer the info for both tests.I have cognitive

problems and this is too difficult for me.

My question would be if ranges were little different would that make my test

results incomparable.Ranges always change you know but the test result

should be independent of the variations in ranges i am thinking. Am i wrong?

>

>

> You don't state whether you have Hashi,

no hashi at this moment.

>

> You also don't state how you feel, comparatively.

>

>

I really am not sure. May be little warmer.

thanks Carol

nil

[Guest guest]

" Nil " <yildiz22@...> wrote:

> >> also started taking some little amounts of iodine daily

[cbwillis:]

> > Not knowing how much iodine you were using, it's hard to say

> > what's going on here. Iodine can play havoc in Hashimoto's

> > though, and much depends on the individual and amount taken.

> about 300 mcg.

That's a definite thyroid kick, and twice the daily requirement

of Iodine.

It doesn't take much iodine to stimulate the thyroid, even

half the daily requirment, or less, can do that.

If the thyroid gets stimulated to " produce " too much,

or overwhelmed with enough iodine, it can

react by downregulating metabolism to prevent catabolism or

system meltdown. Or it can go hyper. Or some of both as the

system tries wildly to right itself.

> > Are you referring here to an ACE (adrenal cortical extract)

> > that contains cortisol hormone? Normal cortisol does help

> > thyroid get into cells, but this is a question of degree.

> >

>

> Yes,i am talking about ace's.

Cortisol would have allowed more thryoid

hormone to get into cells and therefore have effects -

I think this would be minimal though.

> > Need to cite reference ranges here since they vary by lab.

>

>

> Carol, really too tired to transfer the info for both

> tests.I have cognitive problems and this is too difficult

> for me. My question would be if ranges were little

> different would that make my test

> results incomparable.Ranges always change you know

> but the test result should be independent of the

> variations in ranges i am thinking. Am i wrong?

Even if you had both tests run at the same lab (same ref ranges),

we don't know Where in that ref range the first nor the 2nd

test fell. I don't know if adding this info for the sake

of clarity and completeness would allow for a better

answer to your question here (I suspect not).

> > You don't state whether you have Hashi,

>

>

> no hashi at this moment.

>

> >

> > You also don't state how you feel, comparatively.

> >

> >

> I really am not sure. May be little warmer.

>

>

> thanks Carol

> nil

The iodine 300 mcg, selenium 30-40 mcg, and extra ACE

would all tend to make you feel warmer.

Any or all of the supps you took could have contributed to

the different test results. I suspect the selenium

contributed most to the higher freeT3, and the iodine to the

higher TSH (as the system strugged with thyroid stimulation).

Carol W.

willis_protocols

[Guest guest]

I thought of this post today after getting my WBC results from the doctor. The

result was 3, very low.

I never understood how thyroid could increase WBC.

But lately I learned a couple of things.

One is that vitamin A deficiency can result in lymphopenia.

I got that from here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1773859

The second one, I learned from Dr. Green, who speaks at DAN! conferences,

which I learned about from Rich. He said that thyroid is needed to make vitamin

A form beta carotene and that PCBs etc. disrupt this.

So low thyroid results in low vitamin A which results in lymphopenia.

If you're reading this Nat - do you have an orange tint to your skin ? I do.

I have been charting my temps according to drrind.com and they imply I am both

adrenal and thyroid deficient.

Nat - why did you stop the thyroid ?

>

> I have subclinical hypothyroid (normal TSH but it fluctuates between

> 2.06-2.86) and the only time my WBC went up to normal was when I took

> thyroid meds for 2 yrs. When I went off the thyroid meds my WBC

> dropped back down below normal levels again. WBC does not indicate

> chronic viral infection although I feel viral all the time now since

> increasing my vitamin D levels.

>

> Nat

>

>

>

> >>> I would say that if your white blood cell count IS NOT low, or

> > even high, then you might have a bacterial infection and abx could

> > work-you can restore your gut flora later. On the other hand, if

> > you have low WBC count, my opinion is that you have a chronic viral

> > infection in which case abx would be of no use.<<<

>

[Guest guest]

is the orange tint to your skin all over? i used to have very orange feet and

some people said it was from carrot juice.

> >

> > I have subclinical hypothyroid (normal TSH but it fluctuates between

> > 2.06-2.86) and the only time my WBC went up to normal was when I took

> > thyroid meds for 2 yrs. When I went off the thyroid meds my WBC

> > dropped back down below normal levels again. WBC does not indicate

> > chronic viral infection although I feel viral all the time now since

> > increasing my vitamin D levels.

> >

> > Nat

> >

> >

> >

> > >>> I would say that if your white blood cell count IS NOT low, or

> > > even high, then you might have a bacterial infection and abx could

> > > work-you can restore your gut flora later. On the other hand, if

> > > you have low WBC count, my opinion is that you have a chronic viral

> > > infection in which case abx would be of no use.<<<

> >

>

[Guest guest]

well, i am olive-skinned but i was sitting in a sauna and someone asked me why

my feet were orange. the bottom of my feet and my ankles. very orange. i was on

synthroid. i didn't know orange feet had anything to do with thyroid.

> > >

> > > I have subclinical hypothyroid (normal TSH but it fluctuates between

> > > 2.06-2.86) and the only time my WBC went up to normal was when I took

> > > thyroid meds for 2 yrs. When I went off the thyroid meds my WBC

> > > dropped back down below normal levels again. WBC does not indicate

> > > chronic viral infection although I feel viral all the time now since

> > > increasing my vitamin D levels.

> > >

> > > Nat

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > >>> I would say that if your white blood cell count IS NOT low, or

> > > > even high, then you might have a bacterial infection and abx could

> > > > work-you can restore your gut flora later. On the other hand, if

> > > > you have low WBC count, my opinion is that you have a chronic viral

> > > > infection in which case abx would be of no use.<<<

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

When your WBC count came up while on synthroid, did your ferritin come up too ?

>

>

> I discontiuned synthroid because it didn't improve how I felt.

>

> I have not had orange skin for years now for whatever reason it went away.

>

> My WBC has been up at 5-5.2 for last year since taking organic virgin coconut

oil, before that my WBC was always 3-3.2. My thyroid is now in normal range.

>

> Nat

[Guest guest]

No, unfortunately my ferritin never went up while on synthroid. Taking iron

supplements is the only thing that brings up my ferritin.

I also tried a gluten free diet and still it didn't help with absorption.

Frustrating.

Nat

> When your WBC count came up while on synthroid, did your ferritin come up too

?

[Guest guest]

I am currently taking a combination of Biaxin and Plaquenil to treat my Lyme

disease. My white blood count (WBC) has been dropping significantly over the

past few months, which can happen when being treated with long-term antibiotics.

I am now being taken off of the Plaquenil since that typically has a greater

effect on WBC. My LLMD is concerned that this will set me back because the two

drugs together are much more effective.

Has anyone else had any issues with low WBC, and if so, how was it handled?

I hate to go backwards in my treatment.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Anne

[Guest guest]

You can do without the Plaquenil. I've never heard of it being given with Biaxin

before: most LLMDs seem to think that Biaxin is a very effective drug against

L-form Lyme all on its own. Generally, LLMDs do like to pair Plaquenil with

Zithromax, which doesn't penetrate the cell walls as effectively without it. (I

can't tolerate either Biaxin or Plaquenil -- have done them both -- and am

sustaining a decent recovery on Zithromax alone.)

Different LLMDs see things different ways; but it may help to know that there

are other docs out there who don't consider Plaquenil to be a mandatory adjunct

to Biaxin.

If you've been at this for more than four months, you might consider taking a

month off. I have to do this about every 4-6 months because I either get candida

overgrowth that has to be beaten back; or because my liver gets very unhappy.

These rest-and-recovery periods have not impeded my healing process; indeed,

they've enabled me to stay strong enough to keep going without doing long-term

damage to my body.

Don't worry about " going backwards. " This is a long-term commitment. Speed

should not be an issue; getting a good, solid recovery is. Sometimes you need a

time out so you can regroup to go forward again. Sometimes a lighter load is

just what you need to make real progress.

Sara

On Jun 30, 2010, at 6:54 57AM, anniepmm wrote:

> I am currently taking a combination of Biaxin and Plaquenil to treat my Lyme

disease. My white blood count (WBC) has been dropping significantly over the

past few months, which can happen when being treated with long-term antibiotics.

>

> I am now being taken off of the Plaquenil since that typically has a greater

effect on WBC. My LLMD is concerned that this will set me back because the two

drugs together are much more effective.

>

> Has anyone else had any issues with low WBC, and if so, how was it handled?

>

> I hate to go backwards in my treatment.

>

> Any input would be appreciated.

>

> Thanks!

>

> Anne

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Lyme Disease News continually updated from thousands of sources around the

> net: http://www.topix.net/health/lyme-disease

>

> MedWorm: The latest items on: Lyme Disease

> http://tinyurl.com/23dgy8

>

[Guest guest]

You can do without the Plaquenil. I've never heard of it being given with Biaxin

before: most LLMDs seem to think that Biaxin is a very effective drug against

L-form Lyme all on its own. Generally, LLMDs do like to pair Plaquenil with

Zithromax, which doesn't penetrate the cell walls as effectively without it. (I

can't tolerate either Biaxin or Plaquenil -- have done them both -- and am

sustaining a decent recovery on Zithromax alone.)

Different LLMDs see things different ways; but it may help to know that there

are other docs out there who don't consider Plaquenil to be a mandatory adjunct

to Biaxin.

If you've been at this for more than four months, you might consider taking a

month off. I have to do this about every 4-6 months because I either get candida

overgrowth that has to be beaten back; or because my liver gets very unhappy.

These rest-and-recovery periods have not impeded my healing process; indeed,

they've enabled me to stay strong enough to keep going without doing long-term

damage to my body.

Don't worry about " going backwards. " This is a long-term commitment. Speed

should not be an issue; getting a good, solid recovery is. Sometimes you need a

time out so you can regroup to go forward again. Sometimes a lighter load is

just what you need to make real progress.

Sara

On Jun 30, 2010, at 6:54 57AM, anniepmm wrote:

> I am currently taking a combination of Biaxin and Plaquenil to treat my Lyme

disease. My white blood count (WBC) has been dropping significantly over the

past few months, which can happen when being treated with long-term antibiotics.

>

> I am now being taken off of the Plaquenil since that typically has a greater

effect on WBC. My LLMD is concerned that this will set me back because the two

drugs together are much more effective.

>

> Has anyone else had any issues with low WBC, and if so, how was it handled?

>

> I hate to go backwards in my treatment.

>

> Any input would be appreciated.

>

> Thanks!

>

> Anne

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Lyme Disease News continually updated from thousands of sources around the

> net: http://www.topix.net/health/lyme-disease

>

> MedWorm: The latest items on: Lyme Disease

> http://tinyurl.com/23dgy8

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your input and the helpful information, Sara.

Good to know that the Plaquenil isn't always used along with the Biaxin. The

protocol I have been on is 6 months of Biaxin/Plaquenil and then 6 months of

Tetracycline. I have been doing this now for 21 months. I did take a month off

from ABX back in March. My LLMD and I wanted to see how I would do. Within two

weeks many of my symptoms came back agressively, so I'm nervous about taking a

break ... I hate being on ABX this long, though. It's a catch 22.

What symptoms do you have when your liver becomes " unhappy? "

Thanks again for your feedback.

Anne

>

> > I am currently taking a combination of Biaxin and Plaquenil to treat my Lyme

disease. My white blood count (WBC) has been dropping significantly over the

past few months, which can happen when being treated with long-term antibiotics.

> >

> > I am now being taken off of the Plaquenil since that typically has a greater

effect on WBC. My LLMD is concerned that this will set me back because the two

drugs together are much more effective.

> >

> > Has anyone else had any issues with low WBC, and if so, how was it handled?

> >

> > I hate to go backwards in my treatment.

> >

> > Any input would be appreciated.

> >

> > Thanks!

> >

> > Anne

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Lyme Disease News continually updated from thousands of sources around the

> > net: http://www.topix.net/health/lyme-disease

> >

> > MedWorm: The latest items on: Lyme Disease

> > http://tinyurl.com/23dgy8

> >