question

March 9, 2009

That's called Vicoprofen for brand name vs Vicoden. they both contain

hydrocodone which is tha smaller number listed, 5 or 7.5 or 10. Then they are

added to ibuprofen or acetometiphen.

>

> From: <sessions.jennifer@ gmail.com<sessions.jennifer% 40gmail.com>

> >

> Subject: Re: Question

> spinedisorderssuppo rtgroup@gro ups.com<spinedisorderssupp ortgroup%

40groups. com>

> Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 10:16 AM

>

> yes, I'm also hoping that Kathy just made a typo, Calvin - 375 mg of

> Vicodin would be a whole lot. I take 6 of the 10/500 mg tabs a day, so I

> take 60 mg - 375 would be very bad. Maybe she meant 3.75 mg (if they make

> that?)?

>

> Jenn

>

> ps Calvin, how are you feeling post-op?

>

March 9, 2009

It can,but 200mg of ibuprophen won't do it. You're better off taking the Vicodin

with a prescription of Motrin 600- 800 mgs.

>

> From: <sessions.jennifer@ gmail.com<sessions.jennifer% 40gmail.com>

> >

> Subject: Re: Question

> spinedisorderssuppo rtgroup@gro ups.com<spinedisorderssupp ortgroup%

40groups. com>

> Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 10:16 AM

>

> yes, I'm also hoping that Kathy just made a typo, Calvin - 375 mg of

> Vicodin would be a whole lot. I take 6 of the 10/500 mg tabs a day, so I

> take 60 mg - 375 would be very bad. Maybe she meant 3.75 mg (if they make

> that?)?

>

> Jenn

>

> ps Calvin, how are you feeling post-op?

>

March 9, 2009

Kathy/Kady:

I suspect you are right, but I never got a good answer to that question. It

(Tylenol) was usually addressed as more of a 'negative' for the long-term

user like me - or perhaps the heavy user.

I have guessed it is more intended to reduce the stronger and addictive

chemicals for a short term user: a 'broken toe' for example. Most likely a

bit of both.

I do know that all my doctors were concerned with the amount of Tylenol they

were 'forced' to give me; this was their ultimate solution. It is a new

change, within the last year, and it may be a new offering. I know they

were pleased they hunted and found it!

Hug w Smile -> Vince

On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Kathy Denk <biloxibelle@...> wrote:

>

> HI Vince

>

> Does that kill the pain better because of the anti inflamatory in it??? I

> hear people on here say not to take the anti inflam cause they want the

> inflamation to help heal. I can always ask my dr about it cause I've never

> heard of it before.

>

> Hugs

> Kathy/Kady

>

> L2-L3 There is mild decrease in height & signal intensity of intervertebral

> disk w/mild diffuse bulging of the disk annulus.

> L-3-L4 Norjal disk & facet joints.

> L4-L5 The disk maintains normal height & signal intensity but a small disk

> fragment has extruded on the left disk & has migrated superiorly into the

> left neural foramen compressing the left l4 nerve root.

> L5-S1 Marked decrease in height & signal intensity of the intervertebral

> disk w/mild diffuse bulging of the disk annulus & mild fatty replacement of

> the adjacent bone marrow. The facet joints are normal.

> Then down lower on the paper it says

> Impression:

> Disk herniation at L4- L5 on the left with a small extruded fragment which

> has migrated superiorly into the neural foramen & is compressing the left L4

> nerve root.

>

> To:

spinal problems <spinal problems%40gro\

ups.com>

> From: vincent.cataldi@... <vincent.cataldi%40gmail.com>

> Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 10:44:40 -0600

> Subject: Re: Re: Question

>

> To avoid the large amount of Tylenol normally found in the Vicodin - I was

> switched to Hydrocodone-Ibuprof 7.5Mg/200Mg. Vince

>

> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Kathy Denk

<biloxibelle@...<biloxibelle%40hotmail.com>>

> wrote:

>

> >

> > Thanks

> >

> > Hugs

> > Kathy/Kady

> >

> > L2-L3 There is mild decrease in height & signal intensity of

> intervertebral

> > disk w/mild diffuse bulging of the disk annulus.

> > L-3-L4 Norjal disk & facet joints.

> > L4-L5 The disk maintains normal height & signal intensity but a small

> disk

> > fragment has extruded on the left disk & has migrated superiorly into the

> > left neural foramen compressing the left l4 nerve root.

> > L5-S1 Marked decrease in height & signal intensity of the intervertebral

> > disk w/mild diffuse bulging of the disk annulus & mild fatty replacement

> of

> > the adjacent bone marrow. The facet joints are normal.

> > Then down lower on the paper it says

> > Impression:

> > Disk herniation at L4- L5 on the left with a small extruded fragment

> which

> > has migrated superiorly into the neural foramen & is compressing the left

> L4

> > nerve root.

> >

> > To:

spinal problems <spinal problems%40gro\

ups.com>

> <spinal problems%40>

> > From: tpowell1977@... <tpowell1977%40> <tpowell1977%

> 40>

> > Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 08:33:26 -0700

> > Subject: Re: Re: Question

> >

> > It's the amount of Tylenol in the Vicodin. Vicodin comes in 5/500 and

> > 5/325. The 500 and 325 being the amount of Tylenol. ---

> >

> > From: <sessions.jennifer@...<sessions.jennifer%40gmail.com>

> <sessions.jennifer%40gmail.com>

> > >

> > Subject: Re: Question

> > To:

spinal problems <spinal problems%40gro\

ups.com>

> <spinal problems%40>

> > Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 10:16 AM

> >

> > yes, I'm also hoping that Kathy just made a typo, Calvin - 375 mg of

> > Vicodin would be a whole lot. I take 6 of the 10/500 mg tabs a day, so I

> > take 60 mg - 375 would be very bad. Maybe she meant 3.75 mg (if they make

> > that?)?

> >

> > Jenn

> >

> > ps Calvin, how are you feeling post-op?

> >

March 10, 2009

I told my Docs about how much tylenol, aspirin, advil, I was taking an nobody

told me I was taking dangerous amounts. Gee.... they were so happy not

perscribing something like PERCOCET for my pain. My liver is damaged. The nurse

in his office set me up with a pain management clinic. I am seeing the pain

clinic now, I take two percocet at night, low dose morphine twice a day,

backlophen, (sp) some aspirin, tylenol, lot of " natural " suppliments. Other pain

management things too. I was ready to jump off a bridge because of the pain.

ssshhhheeeeesssshhh. I would break down and cry in his office. If it were not

for the nurse that works for him.... I do not know if I would still be here. Now

I have some hope. Such a nice feeling!!!! So BE CAREFUL of any meds, especially

tylenol. It can kill you.

in NH

Re: Question

> > To:

spinal problems <spinal problems%40gro\

ups.com>

> <spinal problems%40>

> > Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 10:16 AM

> >

> > yes, I'm also hoping that Kathy just made a typo, Calvin - 375 mg of

> > Vicodin would be a whole lot. I take 6 of the 10/500 mg tabs a day, so I

> > take 60 mg - 375 would be very bad. Maybe she meant 3.75 mg (if they make

> > that?)?

> >

> > Jenn

> >

> > ps Calvin, how are you feeling post-op?

> >

March 10, 2009

Most doctors are so busy helping, it can be almost impossible to learn

everything that is 'new', and unfortunately they often must rely

on pharmaceutical sales reps who deliver well packaged reports designed for

profitability. As a patient, I work to help my doctors doing research for

their review, and I always ask the pharmacist for opinions and options; then

I participate in decisions which stay away from everything new, and opt for

the least radical options advised. It is rare for the doctor to be fairly

blamed as negligent; this is a team effort. Vince

On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 6:39 PM, cathy mccarthy

<bbhorsetack@...>wrote:

> I told my Docs about how much tylenol, aspirin, advil, I was taking an

> nobody told me I was taking dangerous amounts. Gee.... they were so happy

> not perscribing something like PERCOCET for my pain. My liver is damaged.

> The nurse in his office set me up with a pain management clinic. I am seeing

> the pain clinic now, I take two percocet at night, low dose morphine twice a

> day, backlophen, (sp) some aspirin, tylenol, lot of " natural " suppliments.

> Other pain management things too. I was ready to jump off a bridge because

> of the pain. ssshhhheeeeesssshhh. I would break down and cry in his office.

> If it were not for the nurse that works for him.... I do not know if I would

> still be here. Now I have some hope. Such a nice feeling!!!! So BE CAREFUL

> of any meds, especially tylenol. It can kill you.

>

> in NH

>

> Re: Question

> > > To:

spinal problems <spinal problems%40gro\

ups.com>

> <spinal problems%40>

> > <spinal problems%40>

> > > Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 10:16 AM

> > >

> > > yes, I'm also hoping that Kathy just made a typo, Calvin - 375 mg of

> > > Vicodin would be a whole lot. I take 6 of the 10/500 mg tabs a day, so

> I

> > > take 60 mg - 375 would be very bad. Maybe she meant 3.75 mg (if they

> make

> > > that?)?

> > >

> > > Jenn

> > >

> > > ps Calvin, how are you feeling post-op?

> > >

March 10, 2009

Hi

How much tylenol were you taking a day? I take one to two a day, try to

alternate with advil- one day tylenol, the other advil to give my body a break-

bad days I take advil and low dose percocet one to two 325mg.

I worry about the tylenol in my body thought but it helps that awful aching and

stiffness......

wendy in DC

Re: Question

> > To:

spinal problems <spinal problems%40gro\

ups.com>

> <spinal problems%40>

> > Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 10:16 AM

> >

> > yes, I'm also hoping that Kathy just made a typo, Calvin - 375 mg of

> > Vicodin would be a whole lot. I take 6 of the 10/500 mg tabs a day, so I

> > take 60 mg - 375 would be very bad. Maybe she meant 3.75 mg (if they make

> > that?)?

> >

> > Jenn

> >

> > ps Calvin, how are you feeling post-op?

> >

March 10, 2009

O gosh. I was once told you could take otc drugs twice as much and twice as

often without hurting yourself? Probably pretty stupid. Tylenol worried me, was

taking too many. So I switched to aspirin, probadly the 325 mgs 15+ a day? and

then 4 tylenol at night to kill the pain? I told my Doc this. Also sometimes

took 4 advil instead of tylenol at night, cause I was afraid of what tylenol

might of done to me. This is after popping aspirin all day...Used to take alot

of tylenol instead. Thought aspirin was safer. Problem with a back disorder,

once my old Doc who knew me retired, new doc looked at me (cause I do " look "

normal) like a drug " seeker " .... which I am NOT. If I wanted to be, there are

plenty that live right near to me if I wanted that " stuff " . I cried myself to

sleep many nights.

Re: Question

> > To:

spinal problems <spinal problems%40gro\

ups.com>

> <spinal problems%40>

> > Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 10:16 AM

> >

> > yes, I'm also hoping that Kathy just made a typo, Calvin - 375 mg of

> > Vicodin would be a whole lot. I take 6 of the 10/500 mg tabs a day, so I

> > take 60 mg - 375 would be very bad. Maybe she meant 3.75 mg (if they make

> > that?)?

> >

> > Jenn

> >

> > ps Calvin, how are you feeling post-op?

> >

March 10, 2009

As long as you have liver function tests once or twice a year and they are fine,

then you are fine to take them. If you monitor it closely, then as soon as

something changes you can stop the Tylenol. People like us need to just take

what works. We have very few options. I firmly believe in taking what works,

when you are a person who has permanent and chronic pain...there's no guarantee

that you will get reduced liver function with higher amounts of Tylenol and

there's no specific number that's just right across the board. I think that

switching off between an anti-inflammatory is a good idea, but i wouldn't worry

too much, just have your LFT's done so you can rest easy!

---

> >

> > From: <sessions.jennifer@ gmail.com<sessions.jennifer% 40gmail.com>

> <sessions.jennifer% 40gmail.com>

> > >

> > Subject: Re: Question

> > spinedisorderssuppo rtgroup@gro ups.com<spinedisorderssupp

ortgroup% 40groups. com>

> <spinedisorderssupp ortgroup% 40groups. com>

> > Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 10:16 AM

> >

> > yes, I'm also hoping that Kathy just made a typo, Calvin - 375 mg of

> > Vicodin would be a whole lot. I take 6 of the 10/500 mg tabs a day, so I

> > take 60 mg - 375 would be very bad. Maybe she meant 3.75 mg (if they make

> > that?)?

> >

> > Jenn

> >

> > ps Calvin, how are you feeling post-op?

> >

March 10, 2009

yep - the larger number is the amount of Tylenol in the pill and the smaller

number is the narcotic, and not that it matters one iota, but usually the

smaller number is said first like 7.5/750 - I think that's where the confusion

was. : ) sorry to be so nosy Kathy but I guess we all feel like we have to

look out for each other! I'm glad you are only having to take a small amount to

get relief.

Jenn

March 10, 2009

---

Please help me understand more if you can.

Several messages back in this thread you said " As long as you have liver

function tests once or twice a year and they are fine, then you are fine to

take them. If you monitor it closely, then as soon as something changes you

can stop the Tylenol. People like us need to just take what works. We have

very few options. "

I immediately saw this as a real-world common-sense advice; but it gnawed at

me still, because back in my youth, when I drank like a fish, I always felt

guilty because common bar chatter told me the liver can not repair itself.

Do you know if this is true - or how true is this thought to be these days?

My liver function showed no problems when I began the pain medications -

and I was surprised (and thankful) because I felt guilty for so many years

of self-induced 'crewel and unusual' Liver Abuse. I thought a drinking

problem was an empty wallet!

Does the opium derivatives in Vicodin variant [Hydrocodone-IBUPROF

7.5Mg/200Mg] and Percocet variant [Oxycodone/APAP 5Mg-325Mg] tax the liver

enough to warrant a LFT also, even if I add no Tylenol? (Also take epam

10Mg & Cyclobenzaprine 10Mg & Marinol 5Mg) - liver taxing?

(I drink 2-4 beers\week max - with 1 or 2 nights of Live Jazz )

Thank you for your time - Vince

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 8:16 AM, <sessions.jennifer@...>wrote:

> yep - the larger number is the amount of Tylenol in the pill and the

> smaller number is the narcotic, and not that it matters one iota, but

> usually the smaller number is said first like 7.5/750 - I think that's where

> the confusion was. : ) sorry to be so nosy Kathy but I guess we all feel

> like we have to look out for each other! I'm glad you are only having to

> take a small amount to get relief.

>

> Jenn

>

March 10, 2009

I stay cold but mainly because of the medication. Or so I have been told! Also

the popping sound and werid other sounds I think I have heard them all! ROFL

It does seem that when fluid builds up around my lower discs I tend to get those

terrible sounds more. Can't remember the wording of it but when it happens I

tend to go beck on my meds and it helps. Doctor said that its just par for the

course in my situation and that when the grinding popping starts to give him a

shout! 9 years now of ups and downs and some days good and some bad. I reckon we

just take the good days and forget the bad......

I would lose it if I didn't

> >

> > From: Jan G <jangil@>

> > Subject: Question

> > spinedisorderssuppo rtgroup@gro ups.com

> > Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 11:21 AM

> >

> > I have to have a series of bone x-rays done yearly to see if I have

> > developed Multiple Myeloma, this year they noted that I have 4

> disks in my

> > neck that are trying to slipping on top of each other. Kind of like

> > settling. The oncologist who got the report wondered how I was

> still able

> > to move my head as much as I could. Symptoms I have are a crunching

> feeling

> > when I move my neck and from time to time what feels like an

> electrical

> > shock go into my head from my neck.

> >

> > Any thoughts?

> >

> > Jan (Fargo)

> >

March 10, 2009

In the neck, when there is muscle spasm, everything is pulled tight by the spasm

so when you turn your neck you may hear those noises that are the ligaments

which are pulled tight as they rub against your vertebrae when you turn or angle

your head. Alomst everyone can here these noises to some extent or another if

they pay attention, it's just amplified when you have neck spasms.

---

From: ray's wife <trophygirl38@...>

Subject: Re: Question

spinal problems

Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 2:08 PM

I stay cold but mainly because of the medication. Or so I have been told! Also

the popping sound and werid other sounds I think I have heard them all! ROFL

It does seem that when fluid builds up around my lower discs I tend to get those

terrible sounds more. Can't remember the wording of it but when it happens I

tend to go beck on my meds and it helps. Doctor said that its just par for the

course in my situation and that when the grinding popping starts to give him a

shout! 9 years now of ups and downs and some days good and some bad. I reckon we

just take the good days and forget the bad......

I would lose it if I didn't

> >

> > From: Jan G <jangil@>

> > Subject: Question

> > spinedisorderssuppo rtgroup@gro ups.com

> > Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 11:21 AM

> >

> > I have to have a series of bone x-rays done yearly to see if I have

> > developed Multiple Myeloma, this year they noted that I have 4

> disks in my

> > neck that are trying to slipping on top of each other. Kind of like

> > settling. The oncologist who got the report wondered how I was

> still able

> > to move my head as much as I could. Symptoms I have are a crunching

> feeling

> > when I move my neck and from time to time what feels like an

> electrical

> > shock go into my head from my neck.

> >

> > Any thoughts?

> >

> > Jan (Fargo)

> >

March 10, 2009

Vince,

Once the liver has sustained actual damage, no it cannot repair itself. That

being said, it takes a lot in most cases for the liver to become damaged. It's

an incredibly powerful organ that protects us from potantially damaging

substances. When you have LFT's done you are able to see when the liver starts

to not function as well as it should and can then re-evaluate your medications.

LFT's monitor how well your liver is working, the liver can show it's not

working to it's optimal level as well as that it is somewhat or very much

damaged. Not functioning to it's optimal level is not considered damage until it

passes a certain pont.

Now, it takes a LOT of medication to damage a liver. The meds you listed and the

doses you listed are not considered worrisome. Only some medications are

particularly hard on the liver, most are middle of the road. Tylenol is one of

those when SUSTAINED high doses can be toxic and damaging. Your pharmacist can

tall you if any of your medications are something to worry about or not, but

your package insert will probably give you the answers you need. The codeine

derivative in Vicodin and Percocet is not damaging to the liver. I do recommend

taking the oxycodone alone when used for chronic pain and long term use. you can

supplement with Tylenol or Motrin as needed in more controlled doses.

And I wouldn't worry too much about your liver from your youthful days of beer

drinking. The general rule is that HEAVY SUSTAINED alcohol abuse is concerning

as far as the liver is concerned. 2-4 beers a week isn't heavy and it wasn't

sustained.

I hope this helped!

Have a pain free day!

---

> yep - the larger number is the amount of Tylenol in the pill and the

> smaller number is the narcotic, and not that it matters one iota, but

> usually the smaller number is said first like 7.5/750 - I think that's where

> the confusion was. : ) sorry to be so nosy Kathy but I guess we all feel

> like we have to look out for each other! I'm glad you are only having to

> take a small amount to get relief.

>

> Jenn

>

March 10, 2009

Jan (Fargo)

I just saw your inquiry from January (copied below) and so don't know

what responses you may have already received. I was diagnosed also

with Multiple Myeloma, and all were amazed with my flexibility too. I can

palm the ground or touch my head to my knee caps while sitting - no pain

doing this - just walking or standing on my left foot hurts - gut wrenching.

On several occasions - but not for four years - I had a paralyzing

'electrical charge' travel from my left ear down to my left foot, and

somehow I could see it, as a slow traveling lightning bolt that lingered.

Stopped me cold in my tracks as I was walking - blurred my vision - lasted

about one minute and took my breath away. Scared the H out of me.

After this, I got an MRI, CT, and X-Rays and the radiologist diagnosed me

with Multiple Myeloma. Months later, follow-up experts ruled this out,

stating that such a bone cancer can not begin in a small bone with no marrow

- and they stated that to have traveled (metastasized) to the spine I would

surely have a problem in an arm or leg bone so bad that I could not possibly

not-know about it. Vertebra, ribs, and toes are often the first bones to

develop symptoms though because they crack due to their small size - but it

begins somewhere else.

Several years later it was stated that Multiple Myeloma was not possible

because I would be dead. Not sure if this is helpful, but is scared me very

much and apparently it was a false positive diagnosis. I hope you are

hopeful and because based on what I was told, you may have good reason to be

hopeful. I am hopeful for you.

Vince

Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 11:21 AM

I have to have a series of bone x-rays done yearly to see if I

have developed Multiple Myeloma, this year they noted that I have 4 disks in

my neck that are trying to slipping on top of each other. Kind of

like settling. The oncologist who got the report wondered how I was still

able to move my head as much as I could. Symptoms I have are a

crunching feeling when I move my neck and from time to time what feels like

an electrical shock go into my head from my neck.

Any thoughts?

Jan (Fargo)

March 10, 2009

My neck was so bad that you can hear the popping across the room,

even baffled my PM at the time, that was almost 15 years ago. I still get the

grinding, popping, cracking, and now a lot of the times pain also if I turn the

wrong way. If I bend or twist the wrong way I get really loud popping, cracking.

Sometimes it feels better, sometimes it makes for a really painful few days

afterwards. Problem is I never know when to avoid, or when it's going to happen.

Any Idea's?

Bama,

The dog has seldom been successful in pulling man up to its level of sagacity,

but man has frequently dragged the dog down to his. Thurber

________________________________

From: ray's wife <trophygirl38@...>

spinal problems

Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 1:08:42 PM

Subject: Re: Question

I stay cold but mainly because of the medication. Or so I have been told! Also

the popping sound and werid other sounds I think I have heard them all! ROFL

It does seem that when fluid builds up around my lower discs I tend to get those

terrible sounds more. Can't remember the wording of it but when it happens I

tend to go beck on my meds and it helps. Doctor said that its just par for the

course in my situation and that when the grinding popping starts to give him a

shout! 9 years now of ups and downs and some days good and some bad. I reckon we

just take the good days and forget the bad.......

I would lose it if I didn't

> >

> > From: Jan G <jangil@>

> > Subject: Question

> > spinedisorderssuppo rtgroup@gro ups.com

> > Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 11:21 AM

> >

> > I have to have a series of bone x-rays done yearly to see if I have

> > developed Multiple Myeloma, this year they noted that I have 4

> disks in my

> > neck that are trying to slipping on top of each other. Kind of like

> > settling. The oncologist who got the report wondered how I was

> still able

> > to move my head as much as I could. Symptoms I have are a crunching

> feeling

> > when I move my neck and from time to time what feels like an

> electrical

> > shock go into my head from my neck.

> >

> > Any thoughts?

> >

> > Jan (Fargo)

> >

March 10, 2009

LFT's monitor how well your liver is working, the liver can show it's not

working to it's optimal level as well as that it is somewhat or very much

damaged. Not functioning to it's optimal level is not considered damage until it

passes a certain point

,

Considering you don't go past that certain point you are talking about in the

above sentence, does or will the liver correct itself back to

that optimal level?

Bama,

The dog has seldom been successful in pulling man up to its level of sagacity,

but man has frequently dragged the dog down to his. Thurber

________________________________

From: Babbitt <tpowell1977@...>

spinal problems

Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 1:36:09 PM