Guest guest Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 With all due respect, and acknowledging that suicide is indeed a serious issue, I cannot help but think, sometimes, of the phrases " sleight of hand " and " red herring " when most discussion of the consequences of SSRI use centers around the issue of suicide. For every person whose life has been ended as a sequel to ingestion of these lucrative but ill-conceived drugs, there are tens of thousands who are being killed inch by painful inch, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and physically, from taking them. There are hundreds of thousands more who, by virtue of family relationships to these drugged ones, or friendship, or workplace associations, are having their lives trashed in stupid and ugly ways, short of overt physical violence. gertie Withdrawal http://www.network54.com/Forum/message? forumid=281849 & messageid=1102627998 Withdrawal In the SSRI expert working groups' review of the data on Seroxat I understand they will have been faced with presentations of the data on withdrawal from Seroxat by the market authorisation holders. These presentations to judge by material I have seen have made it clear that the company has excluded a large number of reactions from further analysis, owing to a prior determination that these reactions are not caused by withdrawal. Such reactions include respiratory disorder, infection, depression, emotional lability and abnormal ejaculation for instance. Removing these from any calculation in my estimation would remove approximately 20% of withdrawal events. MHRA reviewers have made no objection as I understand it to such a priori exclusions, but on simple methodological grounds a failure to object is extraordinary. If MHRA reviewers have in fact failed to object, I suggest the MHRA revisit this issue in the light of the points made below. In the clinical trials of all SSRIs, respiratory infections and pharyngitis are recorded as occurring at a much greater rate than on placebo. When the relevant studies, such as studies on healthy volunteers for instance, have been conducted by clinicians with expertise in these areas, it has become clear that these respiratory infection and pharyngitis reactions in many cases are dystonias and dyskinesias of the jaw, throat and upper respiratory system rather than infections. The occurrence of such effects on withdrawal have also been reported and indeed would be expected if such reactions are triggered by the initial exposure to treatment. I think your reviewers have been fooled by a coding manoeuvre here. My expectation is that Glaxo Kline will also have removed from the category of possible withdrawal reactions, patients suffering from emotional lability, when it is now clear that such patients were most probably suicidal, and as of June 2003 even Glaxo Kline have written round to physicians in the UK conceding that emotional lability is linked to suicidality and to withdrawal. Despite this, I suspect there have been no objections by MHRA reviewers in the course of 2004 to Glaxo's removal of such data from their consideration of the rate of withdrawal reactions following cessation of treatment with Seroxat. If there have been no objections, this would appear to be a case of MHRA reviewers failing to join up the dots. I would note furthermore that the occurrence of emotional lability/ suicidality in the withdrawal periods of trials across indications, including for instance OCD and social phobia studies, argues strongly against these phenomena being linked to the disease and strongly in favour of a linkage to treatment. I have also seen Glaxo Kline remove abnormal ejaculation from the list of possible withdrawal reactions. This is quite extraordinary as the effects of withdrawal on ejaculation and orgasm have been well described for 20 years for tricyclic agents, such as clomipramine, which have effects on the serotonin system. It is difficult to believe that MHRA would not protest at the exclusion of such effects. An unquestioning acceptance of these exclusions however adds to a consistent pattern of MHRA reviewers taking on trust company assessments of their own data. This is a pattern that may unfortunately make it difficult for many to have confidence in MHRA's final report. On the same theme, MHRA do not appear to have questioned Glaxo Kline's suggestion that hostility (aggression) in their healthy volunteers taking Seroxat stemmed from the volunteers being cooped up. This highly convenient excuse seems to have been swallowed uncritically by MHRA, even though evidence from trials of Seroxat in children, as well as Seroxat in PMDD, point strongly to a hostility inducing effect of the drug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 Quite so. For the record I suffered a permanently broken relationship, a disslocation from family/loved ones ...........I continue to suffer a nasty & extreemely painfull peripheral neuropathy. I have to have numerous surgeries fo bursistis, benign prostrate ...........whilst i have come on leaps & bounds health wise working with the good officies of the withdrawal & recovery group ................It's God's good grace that brought me back from a very determined suicide attempt (Lustral/Zoloft ....wash out) I walk both sides of the street on this ........whilst I'm greatfull to the skill & experteese of the likes of Healy .....I'm still casting round for a UK public champion for the damaged lives. Any ideas?? > With all due respect, and acknowledging that suicide is indeed a serious issue, I cannot help but think, sometimes, of the phrases " sleight of hand " and " red herring " when most discussion of the consequences of SSRI use centers around the issue of suicide. > > For every person whose life has been ended as a sequel to ingestion of these lucrative but ill-conceived drugs, there are tens of thousands who are being killed inch by painful inch, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and physically, from taking them. There are hundreds of thousands more who, by virtue of family relationships to these drugged ones, or friendship, or workplace associations, are having their lives trashed in stupid and ugly ways, short of overt physical violence. gertie > Withdrawal > > > > http://www.network54.com/Forum/message? > forumid=281849 & messageid=1102627998 > > Withdrawal > > In the SSRI expert working groups' review of the data on Seroxat I > understand they will have been faced with presentations of the data > on withdrawal from Seroxat by the market authorisation holders. > These presentations to judge by material I have seen have made it > clear that the company has excluded a large number of reactions from > further analysis, owing to a prior determination that these > reactions are not caused by withdrawal. > > Such reactions include respiratory disorder, infection, depression, > emotional lability and abnormal ejaculation for instance. Removing > these from any calculation in my estimation would remove > approximately 20% of withdrawal events. > > MHRA reviewers have made no objection as I understand it to such a > priori exclusions, but on simple methodological grounds a failure to > object is extraordinary. If MHRA reviewers have in fact failed to > object, I suggest the MHRA revisit this issue in the light of the > points made below. > > In the clinical trials of all SSRIs, respiratory infections and > pharyngitis are recorded as occurring at a much greater rate than on > placebo. When the relevant studies, such as studies on healthy > volunteers for instance, have been conducted by clinicians with > expertise in these areas, it has become clear that these respiratory > infection and pharyngitis reactions in many cases are dystonias and > dyskinesias of the jaw, throat and upper respiratory system rather > than infections. The occurrence of such effects on withdrawal have > also been reported and indeed would be expected if such reactions > are triggered by the initial exposure to treatment. > > I think your reviewers have been fooled by a coding manoeuvre here. > > My expectation is that Glaxo Kline will also have removed from > the category of possible withdrawal reactions, patients suffering > from emotional lability, when it is now clear that such patients > were most probably suicidal, and as of June 2003 even Glaxo > Kline have written round to physicians in the UK conceding that > emotional lability is linked to suicidality and to withdrawal. > Despite this, I suspect there have been no objections by MHRA > reviewers in the course of 2004 to Glaxo's removal of such data from > their consideration of the rate of withdrawal reactions following > cessation of treatment with Seroxat. > > If there have been no objections, this would appear to be a case of > MHRA reviewers failing to join up the dots. > > I would note furthermore that the occurrence of emotional lability/ > suicidality in the withdrawal periods of trials across indications, > including for instance OCD and social phobia studies, argues > strongly against these phenomena being linked to the disease and > strongly in favour of a linkage to treatment. > > I have also seen Glaxo Kline remove abnormal ejaculation from > the list of possible withdrawal reactions. This is quite > extraordinary as the effects of withdrawal on ejaculation and orgasm > have been well described for 20 years for tricyclic agents, such as > clomipramine, which have effects on the serotonin system. It is > difficult to believe that MHRA would not protest at the exclusion of > such effects. > > An unquestioning acceptance of these exclusions however adds to a > consistent pattern of MHRA reviewers taking on trust company > assessments of their own data. This is a pattern that may > unfortunately make it difficult for many to have confidence in > MHRA's final report. > > On the same theme, MHRA do not appear to have questioned Glaxo > Kline's suggestion that hostility (aggression) in their healthy > volunteers taking Seroxat stemmed from the volunteers being cooped > up. This highly convenient excuse seems to have been swallowed > uncritically by MHRA, even though evidence from trials of Seroxat in > children, as well as Seroxat in PMDD, point strongly to a hostility > inducing effect of the drug. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 Well said Gertie, I am so glad you bring that up. It's death of the spirit to me. Drugs blanket who we are. I think we all focus on the suicide because it's something that people who have not experienced psychiatric drugs can agree with. It makes the news and it puts some doubt into the whole industry. I personally cannot think of one person that went on psych drugs and then became a millionaire or wrote a famous poem etc etc. I have known of many who were sad or had the blues and wrote great music and did amazing things anyways, were even considered mad from the start and did amazing things. Those great things dwindle with drugs. Ernest Hemingway said after electroshock " the treatment was a success, but we lost the patient " He could no longer create and so ended his life from my understanding of it. Jim Withdrawal http://www.network54.com/Forum/message? forumid=281849 & messageid=1102627998 Withdrawal In the SSRI expert working groups' review of the data on Seroxat I understand they will have been faced with presentations of the data on withdrawal from Seroxat by the market authorisation holders. These presentations to judge by material I have seen have made it clear that the company has excluded a large number of reactions from further analysis, owing to a prior determination that these reactions are not caused by withdrawal. Such reactions include respiratory disorder, infection, depression, emotional lability and abnormal ejaculation for instance. Removing these from any calculation in my estimation would remove approximately 20% of withdrawal events. MHRA reviewers have made no objection as I understand it to such a priori exclusions, but on simple methodological grounds a failure to object is extraordinary. If MHRA reviewers have in fact failed to object, I suggest the MHRA revisit this issue in the light of the points made below. In the clinical trials of all SSRIs, respiratory infections and pharyngitis are recorded as occurring at a much greater rate than on placebo. When the relevant studies, such as studies on healthy volunteers for instance, have been conducted by clinicians with expertise in these areas, it has become clear that these respiratory infection and pharyngitis reactions in many cases are dystonias and dyskinesias of the jaw, throat and upper respiratory system rather than infections. The occurrence of such effects on withdrawal have also been reported and indeed would be expected if such reactions are triggered by the initial exposure to treatment. I think your reviewers have been fooled by a coding manoeuvre here. My expectation is that Glaxo Kline will also have removed from the category of possible withdrawal reactions, patients suffering from emotional lability, when it is now clear that such patients were most probably suicidal, and as of June 2003 even Glaxo Kline have written round to physicians in the UK conceding that emotional lability is linked to suicidality and to withdrawal. Despite this, I suspect there have been no objections by MHRA reviewers in the course of 2004 to Glaxo's removal of such data from their consideration of the rate of withdrawal reactions following cessation of treatment with Seroxat. If there have been no objections, this would appear to be a case of MHRA reviewers failing to join up the dots. I would note furthermore that the occurrence of emotional lability/ suicidality in the withdrawal periods of trials across indications, including for instance OCD and social phobia studies, argues strongly against these phenomena being linked to the disease and strongly in favour of a linkage to treatment. I have also seen Glaxo Kline remove abnormal ejaculation from the list of possible withdrawal reactions. This is quite extraordinary as the effects of withdrawal on ejaculation and orgasm have been well described for 20 years for tricyclic agents, such as clomipramine, which have effects on the serotonin system. It is difficult to believe that MHRA would not protest at the exclusion of such effects. An unquestioning acceptance of these exclusions however adds to a consistent pattern of MHRA reviewers taking on trust company assessments of their own data. This is a pattern that may unfortunately make it difficult for many to have confidence in MHRA's final report. On the same theme, MHRA do not appear to have questioned Glaxo Kline's suggestion that hostility (aggression) in their healthy volunteers taking Seroxat stemmed from the volunteers being cooped up. This highly convenient excuse seems to have been swallowed uncritically by MHRA, even though evidence from trials of Seroxat in children, as well as Seroxat in PMDD, point strongly to a hostility inducing effect of the drug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 I am so sorry to know of your struggles and misfortune connected to the use of these drugs, and thank God for His mercy in pulling you through to a better physical and emotional place. It could be that the number of people willing to admit the damage these SSRIs have done them might soon become large enough that mutual support groups like AA, which are popular in the US, could come into existence. My cousin and her husband first met in an Alcoholics Anonymous group. The Twelve Steps groups have some defects, I think, but another format and set of ground rules could emerge. It seems the UK is closer than the USA to a real public examination of what these drugs are worth to the public, as opposed to their being worth a lot to those who make their fortune from pushing them onto the public. So perhaps it is more likely that such a spokesperson will be from the UK. Also, there is less headline value in broken lives that continue on in their brokenness, than in blood and gore. The UK has had Medawar doing fine work in the evaluation of SSRIs for at least 8 years, and yet, who has heard of him here in the USA? Only those of us who went digging determinedly for the facts. So no, I don't have any really good ideas about who such a spokesperson could be. I suspect it will be by way of a talented writer of fiction, someone like our Glitter, who can write a best-seller, from experience, on either side of the equation, either as a user or someone who loved a user, illustrating the damage left in the wake of widespread use of SSRIs, something that would then be adapted to the cinema screen. Someone very talented is needed, for it is a complex and many-layered subject, and then getting it published would be a " good-luck " enterprise, not to mention the marketing, or lack thereof. The Dark continues to rise, persistently and vigorously. However, the momentum is building against these drugs. Critical mass for exposing them may not be so far off. How long did it take for Valium to cycle through the medical profession and the public consciousness, from " Mother's wonderful helper " to a realistic appraisal of its dangers? All these psychotropic drugs have a similar life-cycle, don't they? It is truly a tug of war between The Dark, which looks for a chemical fix for fictional biological, " genetic " defects, and The Light, which knows the evil inherent in the very notion. gertie Withdrawal > > > > http://www.network54.com/Forum/message? > forumid=281849 & messageid=1102627998 > > Withdrawal > > In the SSRI expert working groups' review of the data on Seroxat I > understand they will have been faced with presentations of the data > on withdrawal from Seroxat by the market authorisation holders. > These presentations to judge by material I have seen have made it > clear that the company has excluded a large number of reactions from > further analysis, owing to a prior determination that these > reactions are not caused by withdrawal. > > Such reactions include respiratory disorder, infection, depression, > emotional lability and abnormal ejaculation for instance. Removing > these from any calculation in my estimation would remove > approximately 20% of withdrawal events. > > MHRA reviewers have made no objection as I understand it to such a > priori exclusions, but on simple methodological grounds a failure to > object is extraordinary. If MHRA reviewers have in fact failed to > object, I suggest the MHRA revisit this issue in the light of the > points made below. > > In the clinical trials of all SSRIs, respiratory infections and > pharyngitis are recorded as occurring at a much greater rate than on > placebo. When the relevant studies, such as studies on healthy > volunteers for instance, have been conducted by clinicians with > expertise in these areas, it has become clear that these respiratory > infection and pharyngitis reactions in many cases are dystonias and > dyskinesias of the jaw, throat and upper respiratory system rather > than infections. The occurrence of such effects on withdrawal have > also been reported and indeed would be expected if such reactions > are triggered by the initial exposure to treatment. > > I think your reviewers have been fooled by a coding manoeuvre here. > > My expectation is that Glaxo Kline will also have removed from > the category of possible withdrawal reactions, patients suffering > from emotional lability, when it is now clear that such patients > were most probably suicidal, and as of June 2003 even Glaxo > Kline have written round to physicians in the UK conceding that > emotional lability is linked to suicidality and to withdrawal. > Despite this, I suspect there have been no objections by MHRA > reviewers in the course of 2004 to Glaxo's removal of such data from > their consideration of the rate of withdrawal reactions following > cessation of treatment with Seroxat. > > If there have been no objections, this would appear to be a case of > MHRA reviewers failing to join up the dots. > > I would note furthermore that the occurrence of emotional lability/ > suicidality in the withdrawal periods of trials across indications, > including for instance OCD and social phobia studies, argues > strongly against these phenomena being linked to the disease and > strongly in favour of a linkage to treatment. > > I have also seen Glaxo Kline remove abnormal ejaculation from > the list of possible withdrawal reactions. This is quite > extraordinary as the effects of withdrawal on ejaculation and orgasm > have been well described for 20 years for tricyclic agents, such as > clomipramine, which have effects on the serotonin system. It is > difficult to believe that MHRA would not protest at the exclusion of > such effects. > > An unquestioning acceptance of these exclusions however adds to a > consistent pattern of MHRA reviewers taking on trust company > assessments of their own data. This is a pattern that may > unfortunately make it difficult for many to have confidence in > MHRA's final report. > > On the same theme, MHRA do not appear to have questioned Glaxo > Kline's suggestion that hostility (aggression) in their healthy > volunteers taking Seroxat stemmed from the volunteers being cooped > up. This highly convenient excuse seems to have been swallowed > uncritically by MHRA, even though evidence from trials of Seroxat in > children, as well as Seroxat in PMDD, point strongly to a hostility > inducing effect of the drug. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 I tried stopping Lexapro abruptly and it sent me spiraling into a greater hell than what I was in before I started. I would talk to a doctor first about slowly lowering the dosage from 10 mg to 5 mg. Good luck to you! > > what's the best way to withdraw from 10 mg of Lexapro? My doc says to > just stop, but from what I've been reading here it is best to stop > gradually, and also, if the depression returns can I continue taking > the Lexapro? Thanks, Barb from Calif > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 sorry but my ___ retentive self needed to post with the correct spelling of withdrawal. LOL. sorry ... ~Crystal I've been told the same thing about the prozac but never used it. Never needed to. Barbara Withdrawl > > > > > > > > Lexapro@groups .com > > > > > > > > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:10 PM > > > > > > > > I have been on Lex since March, 20mg. I was misdiagnosed with GAD when actually I have pernicious anemia. So now I try to stop and it is hell. Brain zaps, freezes, sweats, nervous, tremors, on and on. When will this stop? It is pure hell. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Must of confused it with my Southern Drawl From: Crystal McCracken <cmccracken@...> Subject: Re: Re: Withdrawal Lexapro Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 5:37 PM sorry but my ___ retentive self needed to post with the correct spelling of withdrawal. LOL. sorry ... ~Crystal I've been told the same thing about the prozac but never used it. Never needed to. Barbara Withdrawl > > > > > > > > Lexapro@groups .com > > > > > > > > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:10 PM > > > > > > > > I have been on Lex since March, 20mg. I was misdiagnosed with GAD when actually I have pernicious anemia. So now I try to stop and it is hell. Brain zaps, freezes, sweats, nervous, tremors, on and on. When will this stop? It is pure hell. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 LMAO! Nice to know I'm not alone in the spelling stuff! Barbara Withdrawl > > > > > > > > Lexapro@groups .com > > > > > > > > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:10 PM > > > > > > > > I have been on Lex since March, 20mg. I was misdiagnosed with GAD when actually I have pernicious anemia. So now I try to stop and it is hell. Brain zaps, freezes, sweats, nervous, tremors, on and on. When will this stop? It is pure hell. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 LOL I was going to but I refrained. At work they call me the " SPELL POLICE " ! It's all good. lol Withdrawl > > > > > > > > Lexapro@groups .com > > > > > > > > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:10 PM > > > > > > > > I have been on Lex since March, 20mg. I was misdiagnosed with GAD when actually I have pernicious anemia. So now I try to stop and it is hell. Brain zaps, freezes, sweats, nervous, tremors, on and on. When will this stop? It is pure hell. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 LOL!!! I'm glad we could all get a little chuckle out of this! You people are great!! ~Crystal Must of confused it with my Southern Drawl From: Crystal McCracken <cmccracken@...> Subject: Re: Re: Withdrawal Lexapro Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 5:37 PM sorry but my ___ retentive self needed to post with the correct spelling of withdrawal. LOL. sorry ... ~Crystal I've been told the same thing about the prozac but never used it. Never needed to. Barbara Withdrawl > > > > > > > > Lexapro@groups .com > > > > > > > > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:10 PM > > > > > > > > I have been on Lex since March, 20mg. I was misdiagnosed with GAD when actually I have pernicious anemia. So now I try to stop and it is hell. Brain zaps, freezes, sweats, nervous, tremors, on and on. When will this stop? It is pure hell. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 LOL I was going to but I refrained. At work they call me the " SPELL POLICE " ! It's all good. lol Withdrawl > > > > > > > > Lexapro@groups .com > > > > > > > > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:10 PM > > > > > > > > I have been on Lex since March, 20mg. I was misdiagnosed with GAD when actually I have pernicious anemia. So now I try to stop and it is hell. Brain zaps, freezes, sweats, nervous, tremors, on and on. When will this stop? It is pure hell. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 LOL....got straight A's in English for my wole life!!! Now, History..that's another issue Withdrawl > > > > > > > > Lexapro@groups .com > > > > > > > > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:10 PM > > > > > > > > I have been on Lex since March, 20mg. I was misdiagnosed with GAD when actually I have pernicious anemia. So now I try to stop and it is hell. Brain zaps, freezes, sweats, nervous, tremors, on and on. When will this stop? It is pure hell. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 no, you are definitely not alone, and I am far from perfect. ~Crystal LMAO! Nice to know I'm not alone in the spelling stuff! Barbara Withdrawl > > > > > > > > Lexapro@groups .com > > > > > > > > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:10 PM > > > > > > > > I have been on Lex since March, 20mg. I was misdiagnosed with GAD when actually I have pernicious anemia. So now I try to stop and it is hell. Brain zaps, freezes, sweats, nervous, tremors, on and on. When will this stop? It is pure hell. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 haha i'm drinking wine...WHOLE life! that's too funny! duh! Withdrawl > > > > > > > > Lexapro@groups .com > > > > > > > > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:10 PM > > > > > > > > I have been on Lex since March, 20mg. I was misdiagnosed with GAD when actually I have pernicious anemia. So now I try to stop and it is hell. Brain zaps, freezes, sweats, nervous, tremors, on and on. When will this stop? It is pure hell. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 > > Back from Doc. He says do not go cold turkey. He wanted me to go 10mg and then to 5. We compromised on 5mg but if there is a problem I'll go up to 10. > > Truthfully I don't know yet if I'll continue to take it. So far today I have not. I guess the problem I have is that it appears I did not need it in the first place. Although the doc will not come out and say that. My guess is he fears a malpractice suit if he did. That would never happen but I don't want to keep taking this to protect him. So I guess I have mucho thinking to do. > > > Just me personally, I really didn't notice any withdrawal from cold turkey. very very mild electric shock things in my head,that's it. Some people apparently have really bad withdrawal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009   There is a group for people coming off benzo products.  Josie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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