Guest guest Posted December 17, 2010 Report Share Posted December 17, 2010 From: maryann peterson <chpeter30096@...> Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: MRI/Lyme " SirR " <alrightguy123@...> Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 10:11 AM Hi LDN Friends, So sorry that the catch-all disease MS has been attached to you. Surely MS exists by itself but misdiagnoses or co-infections are quite likely as far as I can tell. I have a couple of close acquaintances that followed the neurologist down the expensive path. I actually talked to one of the about LDN. Some people seem to love their drugs or are so afraid of stepping out of the box their neurologists put them in. And I was the one that was called a " hippy. " It's really hard to watch people get sicker and sicker. I have heard how the conventional medical community can threaten patients to receive treatments that can only lead to death and continued disability. A couple of things you might want to consider: Our Red Cross blood system has been broken since the 70's. Lyme, XMRV, and who knows what else is in our blood. As soon as the Red Cross took the nurses out of the blood collection system that was a signal that the Red Cross did not care. Finally they are busy now trying to find a way to test blood for XMRV. Way too late in my opinion. Do some research on the MRI. Having one every six months or every year might do more harm than good. MS affects people's whole bodies not just their brains. There are supplements that will help preserve the myelin sheath. Please don't let your neurologist treat you like a test subject. If he ignores your symptoms and only focuses on your brain is he really giving you your money's worth? It's okay to fire your doctor. They are there to advise you. There business should be to heal you. If they are there only to do MRI and sell expensive drugs what advantage is that to you? ann Avoiding fear CFS/FM/OA LDN for One Year at 4.5 mg every night > > > > From: SirR <alrightguy123@...> > > Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Re: MRI/Lyme > > low dose naltrexone > > Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 9:21 AM > > cool MRI pictures! > > > > Beginning to think these are the same disease. I > have > > been diagnosed with MS by two separate neurologists, > > different MRIs, and different radiologists. > > > > Also feel that since the CRAB+T drugs are approved, > even at > > 33% efficacy, and cost $1600/month, or more, the > > medical-industrial-complex does their darndest to > funnel us > > down that route! Also encourages out-of-the-box > > thinkers, such as ourselves, to start LDN. > > > > Reading those darned MRIs is almost like black > magic. > > Don't know what we can do to find / hire our > > radiologists. Even my Lyme Literate Medical Doctors > > (LLMDs)would rather have the MRI reports than the MRI > > images. I have been able to get CD versions of my > MRI > > images. These images are helpful to pass along to > the > > next MRI lab so they can write accurate comparisons. > > > > My last MRIs, the radiologist did specifically mention > the > > possibility of Lyme disease. My LLMD #1, while he > read > > the reports, became visibly excited by the > radiologist > > reporting some critical points. Maybe there is a > > difference between private industry MRIs vs University > MRIs > > ? > > > > My two early stumbling points 1) had not been to one > of two > > specific areas on the United States east coast, 2) did > not > > report a bulls-eye rash. > > > > > > > Lyme Disease Misdiagnosed as MS > > > http://www.lymeinfo.net/multiplesclerosis.html > > > > > > Google Search > > > Lyme MRI > > > http://www.google.com/search?q=Lyme+MRI & rls=com.microsoft:en-us & ie=UTF-8 & oe=UTF-\ 8 & startIndex= & startPage=1 > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2010 Report Share Posted December 18, 2010 You make some very valid points, ann. Thank you! I would add to that...we can not say MS exists by itself by the sheer fact that we do not know definitively what causes it. Testing for these emerging pathogens is lacking such as Mycoplasma pneumoniae, M. fermentens, etc.... and these infections are high on the list of suspects for MS ad other aggressive autoimmune illnesses. I have spoken with many a MS patient over the past 10 years who decided to go the infection route and go on antibiotics. Most of them responded well to the antimicrobials. It is also very interesting that Vanderbilt's MS Clinic screens for Chlamydia pneumonia, which is a common co-infection of Lyme disease. Is MS just a more aggressive strain of Lyme? We can't say....we need more research. This October there was a Lyme disease workshop at the National Academy of Science's Institute of Medicine, which I had the privilege to participate in through a commissioned paper on the human dimension of LD. The focus of the workshop was to discuss what we know about Lyme and other rapidly emerging tick-borne diseases, and what the science gaps are. The list of presenters were predominately from mainstream academia science. The consensus was that testing for Lyme is not great; that we have seriously ill Lyme disease patients who are chronically ill; that Lyme disease is an emerging and diverging disease with many co-infections making diagnosis and treatment extraordinarily complex. What I found extraordinarily interesting is Dr. Luft's presentation on LD. So far they have found 37 genotypes of Borrelia, 12 so far which make humans sick. Dr. Luft and his research group at Stony Brook found that different regions show different genotypes, sometimes there are overlaps between states, and sometimes the type is exclusive to the state. They want to look at whether or not the different genotypes of Lyme (Borrelia) reflect different symptoms, and they want to look at how the response to treatment is affected. Another words....do different genotypes need different treatment protocols for a patient to get well. This could very well explain why 9 Lyme patients on the same treatment protocol will respond differently to the same treatment. You should still be able to see the workshop at http://www.tvworldwide.com/events/iom/101011/ You can also read the peer reviewed commissioned papers here: http://iom.edu/Activities/Disease/TickBorne.aspx The IOM will be putting this into archive soon....they are getting ready to release the end report soon. TorreyPresidentNational Tick-Borne Disease Advocates Fw: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: MRI/Lyme Posted by: "maryann peterson" chpeter30096@... chpeter30096 Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:13 am (PST) From: maryann peterson <chpeter30096 >Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: MRI/Lyme"SirR" <alrightguy123 >Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 10:11 AMHi LDN Friends,So sorry that the catch-all disease MS has been attached toyou. Surely MS exists by itself but misdiagnoses orco-infections are quite likely as far as I can tell. Ihave a couple of close acquaintances that followed theneurologist down the expensive path. I actually talkedto one of the about LDN. Some people seem to lovetheir drugs or are so afraid of stepping out of the boxtheir neurologists put them in. And I was the one thatwas called a "hippy." It's really hard to watch peopleget sicker and sicker. I have heard how theconventional medical community can threaten patients toreceive treatments that can only lead to death and continueddisability.A couple of things you might want to consider:Our Red Cross blood system has been broken since the70's. Lyme, XMRV, and who knows what else is in ourblood. As soon as the Red Cross took the nurses out ofthe blood collection system that was a signal that the RedCross did not care. Finally they are busy now tryingto find a way to test blood for XMRV. Way too late inmy opinion. Do some research on the MRI. Having one every sixmonths or every year might do more harm than good. MSaffects people's whole bodies not just their brains. There are supplements that will help preserve the myelinsheath. Please don't let your neurologist treat youlike a test subject. If he ignores your symptoms andonly focuses on your brain is he really giving you yourmoney's worth?It's okay to fire your doctor. They are there toadvise you. There business should be to healyou. If they are there only to do MRI and sellexpensive drugs what advantage is that to you?annAvoiding fearCFS/FM/OALDN for One Year at 4.5 mg every night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 I have fibromyalgia and I don't believe at all that it is caused by a microorganism. I think people with autoimmune illnesses get opportunistic infections on a regular basis and that may be why some people seem to respond to antibiotics. We are living in a chemical toxic bath now, and those chemicals affect our body's ability to create health. Western medicine does not want to acknowledge that the toxic bath we live in is creating the epidemics of ill health because that would require actually changing the way our society is set up. Instead, they keep looking for bugs they can kill, preserving the status quo. People with autoimmune diseases are so much better off addressing the immune system, which means strengthening the immune system. Because even tho the Western view of autoimmune is that the immune system is too active, autoimmune is actually a sign of an underactive immune system and the long term cure is strengthening it. This is the cutting edge knowledge. best wishes, -- At 09:57 AM 12/18/2010, you wrote: > >You make some very valid points, ann. Thank you! > > > > > > > > > > > >I would add to that...we can not say MS exists by itself by the sheer fact >that we do not know definitively what causes it. Testing for these >emerging pathogens is lacking such as Mycoplasma pneumoniae, M. >fermentens, etc.... and these infections are high on the list of suspects >for MS ad other aggressive autoimmune illnesses. > > > > >I have spoken with many a MS patient over the past 10 years who decided to >go the infection route and go on antibiotics. >Most of them responded well to the antimicrobials. It is also very >interesting that Vanderbilt's MS Clinic screens for Chlamydia pneumonia, >which is a common co-infection of Lyme disease. Is MS just a more >aggressive strain of Lyme? We can't say....we need more research. > >This October there was a Lyme disease workshop at the National Academy of >Science's Institute of Medicine, which I had the privilege to participate >in through a commissioned paper on the human dimension of LD. The focus of >the workshop was to discuss what we know about Lyme and other rapidly >emerging tick-borne diseases, and what the science gaps are. The list of >presenters were predominately from mainstream academia science. > >The consensus was that testing for Lyme is not great; that we have >seriously ill Lyme disease patients who are chronically ill; that Lyme >disease is an emerging and diverging disease with many co-infections >making diagnosis and treatment extraordinarily complex. > >What I found extraordinarily interesting is Dr. Luft's >presentation on LD. So far they have found 37 genotypes of Borrelia, 12 so >far which make humans sick. Dr. Luft and his research group at Stony Brook >found that different regions show different genotypes, sometimes there are >overlaps between states, and sometimes the type is exclusive to the state. >They want to look at whether or not the different genotypes of Lyme >(Borrelia) reflect different symptoms, and they want to look at how the >response to treatment is affected. Another words....do different genotypes >need different treatment protocols for a patient to get well. This could >very well explain why 9 Lyme patients on the same treatment protocol will >respond differently to the same treatment. > >You should still be able to see the workshop at > ><http://www.tvworldwide.com/events/iom/101011/>http://www.tvworldwide.com/event\ s/iom/101011/ > > > >You can also read the peer reviewed commissioned papers here: > ><http://iom.edu/Activities/Disease/TickBorne.aspx>http://iom.edu/Activities/Dis\ ease/TickBorne.aspx > >The IOM will be putting this into archive soon....they are getting ready >to release the end report soon. > > > > > > > > Torrey >President >National Tick-Borne Disease Advocates > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Fw: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: MRI/Lyme > > > > > >Posted by: " maryann peterson " <mailto:chpeter30096@...?Subject= Re: >Fw: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: >MRI/Lyme>chpeter30096@... ><chpeter30096>chpeter30096 > > > > > >Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:13 am (PST) > > > > > > > >From: maryann peterson <<mailto:chpeter30096@...>chpeter30096@...> >Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: MRI/Lyme > " SirR " <<mailto:alrightguy123@...>alrightguy123@...> >Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 10:11 AM >Hi LDN Friends, > >So sorry that the catch-all disease MS has been attached to >you. Surely MS exists by itself but misdiagnoses or >co-infections are quite likely as far as I can tell. I >have a couple of close acquaintances that followed the >neurologist down the expensive path. I actually talked >to one of the about LDN. Some people seem to love >their drugs or are so afraid of stepping out of the box >their neurologists put them in. And I was the one that >was called a " hippy. " It's really hard to watch people >get sicker and sicker. I have heard how the >conventional medical community can threaten patients to >receive treatments that can only lead to death and continued >disability. > >A couple of things you might want to consider: > >Our Red Cross blood system has been broken since the >70's. Lyme, XMRV, and who knows what else is in our >blood. As soon as the Red Cross took the nurses out of >the blood collection system that was a signal that the Red >Cross did not care. Finally they are busy now trying >to find a way to test blood for XMRV. Way too late in >my opinion. > >Do some research on the MRI. Having one every six >months or every year might do more harm than good. MS >affects people's whole bodies not just their brains. >There are supplements that will help preserve the myelin >sheath. Please don't let your neurologist treat you >like a test subject. If he ignores your symptoms and >only focuses on your brain is he really giving you your >money's worth? > >It's okay to fire your doctor. They are there to >advise you. There business should be to heal >you. If they are there only to do MRI and sell >expensive drugs what advantage is that to you? > >ann >Avoiding fear >CFS/FM/OA >LDN for One Year at 4.5 mg every night > > > > > ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 You are contradicting yourself....if one has a microorganism, such as a bacterium or protozoon, then you need antimicrobials to treat them. An illness that is autoimmune means your immune is in overdrive, hyperimmune. A weak immune is not the issue with autoimmune illnesses. People with Lyme fluctuate between hyper and hypo immunes....immune dysfunction, as do other illnesses with overlapping symptoms. Whether a person suffers from an illness that puts their immune in overdrive or in a weak state...your immune has encountered a foe....when this organism evades the immune... over time it sends the immune into dysfunction, or it has a component to it that specifically causes immune dysfunction. It is more complicated than just coming into contact with toxins, though toxins are the after the fact issue. A body that can't function well makes us extremely sensitive to toxins, inside and out of our bodies. What we need is science that isn't influenced by agenda's....this isn't unique to any one illness...it speaks to the problem with the govt grant process. I have spoken to several researchers....the grant process needs major overhauling to get to the answers we all desperately need. TorreyPresidentNational Tick-Borne Disease Advocates Re: Fw: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: MRI/Lyme Posted by: " Baker" vbaker@... vbaker555 Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:11 pm (PST) I have fibromyalgia and I don't believe at all that it is caused by a microorganism. I think people with autoimmune illnesses get opportunistic infections on a regular basis and that may be why some people seem to respond to antibiotics. We are living in a chemical toxic bath now, and those chemicals affect our body's ability to create health. Western medicine does not want to acknowledge that the toxic bath we live in is creating the epidemics of ill health because that would require actually changing the way our society is set up. Instead, they keep looking for bugs they can kill, preserving the status quo.People with autoimmune diseases are so much better off addressing the immune system, which means strengthening the immune system. Because even tho the Western view of autoimmune is that the immune system is too active, autoimmune is actually a sign of an underactive immune system and the long term cure is strengthening it. This is the cutting edge knowledge.best wishes,-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 Hi , and Everyone, Thanks for your comments and adding to my limited view. What I do know for sure is that LDN is safe a effective. I have CFS/FM/OA so from my perspective I have two autoimmune diseases. After getting a diagnosis of FM in the early 90's I sure was not going to follow medical protocol. They had no clue what they were doing and still don't. The alternative treatment I got was based on becoming as healthy as possible which included appropriate cleansing/detoxing of heavy metals, chemicals and radiation. I'm a toxic freak...toxic down to my bones but I still seek regular cleansing and detox. My brain works better and my body is much more able to adjust to the beasties that seem to be having a party somewhere in me. I don't think it is either/or. I think both I must do things to modulate my immune system and watch the scientific research to see if they can come up with something. Although I am opposed to lots of research for individual diseases since many of the scientific/medical breakthroughs are made while doing research in a wide variety of fields. And sometimes it's a wide-eyed inventor who does not have a PhD in anything that discovers something that changes everyone's ideas about what works. You might want to check out vocal imaging. I am still in the process of determining how much that is going to help me but I am hopeful. I'm certain that there are many things already invented or ideas that will lead to inventions that can heal many of our ills. I'm trying to stay open to all kinds of possibilities. And I do realize that many of you out there are on disability or have other restrictions on what is possible for you to do both physically and financially. I want a healthier world for me, my children and grandchildren. I'm just not sure short of divine intervention how that is going to come about. ann LDN for one year > > > > > > >You make some very valid points, ann. Thank you! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I would add to that...we can not say MS exists by > itself by the sheer fact > >that we do not know definitively what causes it. > Testing for these > >emerging pathogens is lacking such as Mycoplasma > pneumoniae, M. > >fermentens, etc.... and these infections are high on > the list of suspects > >for MS ad other aggressive autoimmune illnesses. > > > > > > > > > >I have spoken with many a MS patient over the past 10 > years who decided to > >go the infection route and go on antibiotics. > >Most of them responded well to the antimicrobials. It > is also very > >interesting that Vanderbilt's MS Clinic screens for > Chlamydia pneumonia, > >which is a common co-infection of Lyme disease. Is MS > just a more > >aggressive strain of Lyme? We can't say....we need more > research. > > > >This October there was a Lyme disease workshop at the > National Academy of > >Science's Institute of Medicine, which I had the > privilege to participate > >in through a commissioned paper on the human dimension > of LD. The focus of > >the workshop was to discuss what we know about Lyme and > other rapidly > >emerging tick-borne diseases, and what the science gaps > are. The list of > >presenters were predominately from mainstream academia > science. > > > >The consensus was that testing for Lyme is not great; > that we have > >seriously ill Lyme disease patients who are chronically > ill; that Lyme > >disease is an emerging and diverging disease with many > co-infections > >making diagnosis and treatment extraordinarily > complex. > > > >What I found extraordinarily interesting is Dr. > Luft's > >presentation on LD. So far they have found 37 genotypes > of Borrelia, 12 so > >far which make humans sick. Dr. Luft and his research > group at Stony Brook > >found that different regions show different genotypes, > sometimes there are > >overlaps between states, and sometimes the type is > exclusive to the state. > >They want to look at whether or not the different > genotypes of Lyme > >(Borrelia) reflect different symptoms, and they want to > look at how the > >response to treatment is affected. Another words....do > different genotypes > >need different treatment protocols for a patient to get > well. This could > >very well explain why 9 Lyme patients on the same > treatment protocol will > >respond differently to the same treatment. > > > >You should still be able to see the workshop at > > > ><http://www.tvworldwide.com/events/iom/101011/>http://www.tvworldwide.com/event\ s/iom/101011/ > > > > > > > >You can also read the peer reviewed commissioned papers > here: > > > ><http://iom.edu/Activities/Disease/TickBorne.aspx>http://iom.edu/Activities/Dis\ ease/TickBorne.aspx > > > >The IOM will be putting this into archive soon....they > are getting ready > >to release the end report soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Torrey > >President > >National Tick-Borne Disease Advocates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 Does anyone in this group have Lyme Disease (other than myself) and do they take LDN FOR that purpose or other purposes? I'm wondering IF LDN might help me. Since I just saw this naturopath last Thursday for the first time, I didn't mention LDN, and Dr. Kinghardt also practices at this same clinic where I will be going, and I'm wondering if anyone knows his thoughts on LDN and Lyme Disease. I am in SO much pain, I truly feel like I'm going off the deep end, and so maybe I should just order it at Skips Pharm and make it up myself, instead of trying to find a doctor in the Seattle, WA area who specifically prescribes and believes LDN works. Any info/advice will be helpful. Thanks~L.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2010 Report Share Posted December 20, 2010 I am not contradicting myself. I didn't say one should not have antimicrobials if there is such a problem. I said that I do not believe autoimmune problems are caused by pathogens, but that co-infections are opportunistic and not causative. I'm not speaking to Lyme, which is clearly a pathogen, but you are drawing conclusions about all autoimmune diseases. You can belittle what I have said all you want, your agenda is Western medical science. Non-Western traditions see the truth, that the reason the immune system acts haywire is from weakness, and that in the longterm treating that weakness *appropriately* is the key. imo, People want their autoimmune disease to be *caused* by an organism because that seems fixable. But I don't believe that cures will be found that way. Alleviation of symptoms where there are opportunistic diseases, sure. In any case, LDN balances the immune response appropriately for autoimmune diseases and that's what we're here to discuss. -- At 08:36 AM 12/19/2010, you wrote: > >You are contradicting yourself....if one has a microorganism, such as a >bacterium or protozoon, then you need antimicrobials to treat them. An >illness that is autoimmune means your immune is in overdrive, hyperimmune. >A weak immune is not the issue with autoimmune illnesses. > > > > >People with Lyme fluctuate between hyper and hypo immunes....immune >dysfunction, as do other illnesses with overlapping symptoms. Whether a >person suffers from an illness that puts their immune in overdrive or in a >weak state...your immune has encountered a foe....when this organism >evades the immune... over time it sends the immune into dysfunction, or it >has a component to it that specifically causes immune dysfunction. It is >more complicated than just coming into contact with toxins, though toxins >are the after the fact issue. A body that can't function well makes us >extremely sensitive to toxins, inside and out of our bodies. > >What we need is science that isn't influenced by agenda's....this isn't >unique to any one illness...it speaks to the problem with the govt grant >process. I have spoken to several researchers....the grant process needs >major overhauling to get to the answers we all desperately need. > > > > Torrey >President >National Tick-Borne Disease Advocates > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Re: Fw: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: MRI/Lyme > > > > > >Posted by: " Baker " <mailto:vbaker@...?Subject= Re: Fw: Re: >[low dose naltrexone] Re: >MRI/Lyme>vbaker@... <vbaker555>vbaker555 > > > > > >Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:11 pm (PST) > > > > > >I have fibromyalgia and I don't believe at all that it is caused by a >microorganism. I think people with autoimmune illnesses get opportunistic >infections on a regular basis and that may be why some people seem to >respond to antibiotics. We are living in a chemical toxic bath now, and >those chemicals affect our body's ability to create health. Western >medicine does not want to acknowledge that the toxic bath we live in is >creating the epidemics of ill health because that would require actually >changing the way our society is set up. Instead, they keep looking for >bugs they can kill, preserving the status quo. > >People with autoimmune diseases are so much better off addressing the >immune system, which means strengthening the immune system. Because even >tho the Western view of autoimmune is that the immune system is too active, >autoimmune is actually a sign of an underactive immune system and the long >term cure is strengthening it. This is the cutting edge knowledge. > >best wishes, >-- > > > > ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2010 Report Share Posted December 20, 2010 LP, I have LYME. and CO-INFECTIONS After 10 months of varying oral antibiotics, different ABX every month, except 2 months of flagyl, Jan 2010 - Oct 2010, I am in remission (~49 days now), per my last visit to my LYME Literate Medical Doctor (LLMD) in November 2010. I feel, and function, so much better then a year ago. I have been taking LDN, 3 mg, for over a year now, 15 months or so, even before ABX for LYME; for 2 years they thought I had MS, started 3 mg LDN for the MS. LDN has helped me, but isn't going to fight the LYME by itself. From all that I have read and been told, the LDN "modulates" your immune system. Whatever it does, when tried to stop LDN while taking ABX, felt worse in 2 DAYS time, back on LDN for two more days, felt better. This was in the early months of MY tasking ABX for LYME. If you order from Skips, assuming it would come already compounded, but you would need to have a dosage amt. determined, I have always been on 3 mg, since my second Neourologist went with 3 mg for all his MS patients (I have been 250 to now 238 lbs), and my LLMD knew of LDN, but felt no need to adjust the dosage. Some start as low as 1 mg or less, some up to 4.5 mg max., but work their way up to the max of 4.5. I think Skip's will need you to send them a prescription from a doctor. But might be able to order without a prescription from another pharmacy? I have always used Skip's, I don't know how anybody else compares.There are other LYMIES out here, and they ALL know better than I. I do not know if LDN would help you or not, but it seemed to help me, and I continue to take my LDN even though I have stopped my ABX on 10/31/10. BRAD Does anyone in this group have Lyme Disease (other than myself) and do they take LDN FOR that purpose or other purposes? I'm wondering IF LDN might help me. Since I just saw this naturopath last Thursday for the first time, I didn't mention LDN, and Dr. Kinghardt also practices at this same clinic where I will be going, and I'm wondering if anyone knows his thoughts on LDN and Lyme Disease. I am in SO much pain, I truly feel like I'm going off the deep end, and so maybe I should just order it at Skips Pharm and make it up myself, instead of trying to find a doctor in the Seattle, WA area who specifically prescribes and believes LDN works. Any info/advice will be helpful. Thanks~L.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2010 Report Share Posted December 20, 2010 - It saddens me you think by discussing an issue that ties into LDN, in which I wanted to clarify or disagree with you, as belittling you. That was not my intention. It is very healthy to disagree and I learn much when I am corrected. Antibiotics are part of the antimicrobial group. Infections, whether they are opportunistic or not, can and are treated with antibiotics, as well as antivirals, etc... I have no agenda...just sharing the knowledge...the science the researchers have shared with me. It is not what I feel or think...it is what science tells us so far. With overlapping symptoms, and with no known cause or definitive testing for most of the autoimmune illnesses, no one can say definitively whether these illnesses are or aren't a particular strain of Lyme, especially since testing for Lyme is so poor. Any hypothesis speaks to the need for more research...research that is efficient and effective. TorreyPresidentNational Tick-Borne Disease Advocates Re: Fw: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: MRI/Lyme Posted by: " Baker" vbaker@... vbaker555 Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:26 pm (PST) I am not contradicting myself. I didn't say one should not have antimicrobials if there is such a problem. I said that I do not believe autoimmune problems are caused by pathogens, but that co-infections are opportunistic and not causative. I'm not speaking to Lyme, which is clearly a pathogen, but you are drawing conclusions about all autoimmune diseases.You can belittle what I have said all you want, your agenda is Western medical science. Non-Western traditions see the truth, that the reason the immune system acts haywire is from weakness, and that in the longterm treating that weakness *appropriately* is the key.imo, People want their autoimmune disease to be *caused* by an organism because that seems fixable. But I don't believe that cures will be found that way. Alleviation of symptoms where there are opportunistic diseases, sure.In any case, LDN balances the immune response appropriately for autoimmune diseases and that's what we're here to discuss.-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2010 Report Share Posted December 21, 2010 Yes, , I hear you, but you continue to say that only your truth is valid " Because that is what science tells us so far. " And you assume I don't know what antimicrobials or antiobiotics are, which is a bizarre assumption. I'm talking about how people get well, not about research. I'm not arguing against Lyme research, but I am sharing with people the non-Western view of autoimmune illnesses in case anyone wants to get well. And yes, you could say it is my agenda not to allow Western-only theories of medicine to be the only voice on this list. Autoimmune diseases are in fact much better understood by non-Western medicines, such as Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine, and it is non-Western traditions that inform us that autoimmune illnesses stem from immune weakness, not strength. On a personal note, I really did not have significant healing of my own autoimmune illnesses until I started reconceptualizing them as stemming from immune weakness, not strength. Prior to that, the images I had been feeding myself were of damping down my " overactive " immune system, and that wasn't helping. Once I got the right frame of mind going, among other benefits, I was led to healing modalities that worked, including LDN a year ago now. -- >- > > > > >It saddens me you think by discussing an issue that ties into LDN, in >which I wanted to clarify or disagree with you, as belittling you. That >was not my intention. It is very healthy to disagree and I learn much when >I am corrected. > >Antibiotics are part of the antimicrobial group. Infections, whether they >are opportunistic or not, can and are treated with antibiotics, as well as >antivirals, etc... > >I have no agenda...just sharing the knowledge...the science >the researchers have shared with me. It is not what I feel or think...it >is what science tells us so far. > >With overlapping symptoms, and with no known cause or definitive testing >for most of the autoimmune illnesses, no one can say definitively whether >these illnesses are or aren't a particular strain of Lyme, especially >since testing for Lyme is so poor. Any hypothesis speaks to the need for >more research...research that is efficient and effective. > > > > Torrey >President >National Tick-Borne Disease Advocates > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Re: Fw: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: MRI/Lyme > > > > > >Posted by: " Baker " <mailto:vbaker@...?Subject= Re: Fw: Re: >[low dose naltrexone] Re: >MRI/Lyme>vbaker@... <vbaker555>vbaker555 > > > > > >Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:26 pm (PST) > > > > > > >I am not contradicting myself. I didn't say one should not have >antimicrobials if there is such a problem. I said that I do not believe >autoimmune problems are caused by pathogens, but that co-infections are >opportunistic and not causative. I'm not speaking to Lyme, which is >clearly a pathogen, but you are drawing conclusions about all autoimmune >diseases. > >You can belittle what I have said all you want, your agenda is Western >medical science. Non-Western traditions see the truth, that the reason the >immune system acts haywire is from weakness, and that in the longterm >treating that weakness *appropriately* is the key. > >imo, People want their autoimmune disease to be *caused* by an organism >because that seems fixable. But I don't believe that cures will be found >that way. Alleviation of symptoms where there are opportunistic diseases, >sure. > >In any case, LDN balances the immune response appropriately for autoimmune >diseases and that's what we're here to discuss. > >-- > > > > ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2010 Report Share Posted December 21, 2010 >If these illnesses stem from immune weakness, then what is the root cause >of the immune weakness? You say pathogens... No, I don't say pathogens. I say that people with autoimmune illnesses many times would LIKE the cause to be pathogens because that seems easier to fix, from a Western standpoint. (I'm not talking about Lyme) I say that many people with autoimmune illnesses, because of their weak immune system, wind up with opportunistic infections that can and should be addressed separately with whatever means is necessary (including building the immune system to take care of it on its own), but I do not believe that those opportunistic infections are the cause. And the biggest piece of evidence for this is that whatever pathogen is proposed for, say, the cause of fibromyalgia, only a certain percentage of fibro patients will actually have that pathogen, not anywhere near 100%. To me it's clear they are opportunistic infections. I've already said why I think there is an epidemic of autoimmune illnesses (which are mostly in industrialized areas), and that is the chemical bath of toxins we all live in now, with no respite, combined with the demineralization of soils that has led to widespread mineral deficiencies, the use of bleached stripped salt that leads to widespread mineral imbalances, the lack of darkness which is required for refreshing/renewing sleep, and many more ills of modern life. And Western medicine doesn't want to address these fundamental problems, indeed continues to claim they aren't problems. But I've already said this. Until people address fundamental issues such as these, it's hard to achieve health. This exchange started out because claims were made about autoimmune disease which I don't think are helpful to actual healing, and that's what I've been addressing. wishing you most well, -- >I agree, based on what I learned from the researchers. All pathogens are >not alike in every aspect. What is the genotype for these pathogens? What >is the life cycle? How and why do they affect the immune the way they do? >Does a persons genetics factor into the illness? The list of questions are >very long. These questions have to be answered for cures. > >No matter whether you are of the mindset of Western or non-Western >care....until both camps know EVERY detail of what is causing the illness, >no group can grab claim to having all the answers and cures. I made that >clear in my statements about the need for more research. > >We should not rule Lyme out of the discussion with autoimmune illnesses. >People with Lyme have immunes that fluctuate between low and >autoimmune....consistent dysfunction. That's why I chose to take LDN. The >symptoms for all the illnesses we have discussed overlap...are the same in >many respects. These illneses all may be related with a huge common >denominator. What if these illnesses stem from varying types of Lyme >strains? Lyme disease (Borrelia) is a pathogen. We have to have a >definitive test for these Lyme strains before we can say Lyme does not >play a part in these illnesses. This was discussed at the Institute of >Medicine's Lyme Workshop this October by a well respected mainstream >academia researcher who studies various pathogens. > >Lyme is a cousin to syphilis, both spirochetes, but it is extremely more >complex than syphilis. I don't think even a doctor of Chinese Medicine >would treat his or her case of syphilis without antibiotics being included >in their non-Western care. My point is, there is a place for both >modalities. Western medicine saved my mother from cancer, and saved me >when I was in intensive care fighting for my life from a life-threatening >infection. > >I will end with this final thought and question... if non-Western care had >all the answers to immune dysfuntional illnesses, then there would be none >of these illnesses in the countries that embrace this type of care, and >yet these illneses exhist there. >Don't you think it would be nice if both modalities could think outside >the box and embrace each others efforts and knowledge? > >I wish you continued success with your non-Western care. > > > > Torrey >President >National Tick-Borne Disease Advocates > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, , I hear you, but you continue to say that only your truth is > > valid " Because that is what science tells us so far. " And you assume I > > don't know what antimicrobials or antiobiotics are, which is a bizarre > > assumption. > > > > I'm talking about how people get well, not about research. I'm not > arguing > > against Lyme research, but I am sharing with people the non-Western > view of > > autoimmune illnesses in case anyone wants to get well. And yes, you could > > say it is my agenda not to allow Western-only theories of medicine to be > > the only voice on this list. > > > > Autoimmune diseases are in fact much better understood by non-Western > > medicines, such as Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine, and it is > > non-Western traditions that inform us that autoimmune illnesses stem from > > immune weakness, not strength. > > > > On a personal note, I really did not have significant healing of my own > > autoimmune illnesses until I started reconceptualizing them as stemming > > from immune weakness, not strength. Prior to that, the images I had been > > feeding myself were of damping down my " overactive " immune system, and > that > > wasn't helping. Once I got the right frame of mind going, among other > > benefits, I was led to healing modalities that worked, including LDN a > year > > ago now. > > > > -- > > > > > > > > >- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >It saddens me you think by discussing an issue that ties into LDN, in > > >which I wanted to clarify or disagree with you, as belittling you. That > > >was not my intention. It is very healthy to disagree and I learn much > when > > >I am corrected. > > > > > >Antibiotics are part of the antimicrobial group. Infections, whether they > > >are opportunistic or not, can and are treated with antibiotics, as > well as > > >antivirals, etc... > > > > > >I have no agenda...just sharing the knowledge...the science > > >the researchers have shared with me. It is not what I feel or think...it > > >is what science tells us so far. > > > > > >With overlapping symptoms, and with no known cause or definitive testing > > >for most of the autoimmune illnesses, no one can say definitively whether > > >these illnesses are or aren't a particular strain of Lyme, especially > > >since testing for Lyme is so poor. Any hypothesis speaks to the need for > > >more research...research that is efficient and effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > Torrey > > >President > > >National Tick-Borne Disease Advocates > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Re: Fw: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: MRI/Lyme > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Posted by: " Baker " <mailto:vbaker@...?Subject= Re: Fw: Re: > > >[low dose naltrexone] Re: > > >MRI/Lyme>vbaker@... <vbaker555>vbaker555 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:26 pm (PST) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am not contradicting myself. I didn't say one should not have > > >antimicrobials if there is such a problem. I said that I do not believe > > >autoimmune problems are caused by pathogens, but that co-infections are > > >opportunistic and not causative. I'm not speaking to Lyme, which is > > >clearly a pathogen, but you are drawing conclusions about all autoimmune > > >diseases. > > > > > >You can belittle what I have said all you want, your agenda is Western > > >medical science. Non-Western traditions see the truth, that the reason the > > >immune system acts haywire is from weakness, and that in the longterm > > >treating that weakness *appropriately* is the key. > > > > > >imo, People want their autoimmune disease to be *caused* by an organism > > >because that seems fixable. But I don't believe that cures will be found > > >that way. Alleviation of symptoms where there are opportunistic diseases, > > >sure. > > > > > >In any case, LDN balances the immune response appropriately for autoimmune > > >diseases and that's what we're here to discuss. > > > > > >-- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ > > --A.J. Muste > > ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2010 Report Share Posted December 22, 2010 It's not my opinion only and it's not wild allegations, excuse me. What I have been discussing is the point of view of a huge range of practitioners, that it is a combination of genetics and environment. Your reaction is an illustration of what I'm saying-- people would rather think it's a pathogen because that seems easier to heal from a Western point of view. People do not want to understand the extent to which modern society is affecting human health. We the most sensitive are simply the canaries in the coal mine. -- LDN one year for Hashi's, fibro. Iodine protocol one year. Adrenal exhaustion addressed via nutritional supplements. Still have a bad day once in a while, but it's an isolated day, not a lead-in to a bad week, bad month, bad year. Energy is really good. >Well your opinion is as good as the next I guess. >Till this day their is no certainty to what causes the severe illnes cfs >and fibromyalgia! Their are a lot of theories , but much more research >needs to be done. We don't yet know if their is always just a subgroup >that has infections. It could well be that there is a single virus >responsible, but more research needs to be done. I stagger at the thought >of people saying that such a debilitating disease as cfs or fibromyalgie >is down to bad food, pollution,stress.... >I think for every disease healthy living conditions can vastly improve >life. For many it is not enough to even relieve the tip of the ice berg of >their complaints. >I would not make such wild allegations about a terrible disease! > > >From: Baker <vbaker@...> >low dose naltrexone >Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 9:56:59 PM >Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: MRI/Lyme > > > > > >If these illnesses stem from immune weakness, then what is the root cause > >of the immune weakness? You say pathogens... > >No, I don't say pathogens. I say that people with autoimmune illnesses >many times would LIKE the cause to be pathogens because that seems easier >to fix, from a Western standpoint. (I'm not talking about Lyme) I say >that many people with autoimmune illnesses, because of their weak immune >system, wind up with opportunistic infections that can and should be >addressed separately with whatever means is necessary (including building >the immune system to take care of it on its own), but I do not believe that >those opportunistic infections are the cause. And the biggest piece of >evidence for this is that whatever pathogen is proposed for, say, the cause >of fibromyalgia, only a certain percentage of fibro patients will actually >have that pathogen, not anywhere near 100%. To me it's clear they are >opportunistic infections. > >I've already said why I think there is an epidemic of autoimmune illnesses >(which are mostly in industrialized areas), and that is the chemical bath >of toxins we all live in now, with no respite, combined with the >demineralization of soils that has led to widespread mineral deficiencies, >the use of bleached stripped salt that leads to widespread mineral >imbalances, the lack of darkness which is required for refreshing/renewing >sleep, and many more ills of modern life. And Western medicine doesn't want >to address these fundamental problems, indeed continues to claim they >aren't problems. But I've already said this. > >Until people address fundamental issues such as these, it's hard to achieve >health. This exchange started out because claims were made about >autoimmune disease which I don't think are helpful to actual healing, and >that's what I've been addressing. > >wishing you most well, >-- ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 This LDN group was instrumental in my " escape " from the MS / CRAB drug cult. Also opened my eyes to seeing alternate disease models. Currently taking 4.5 mg LDN per night. Just received my copy of the documentary " Under the Eightball " Ordered my copy about 10 minutes after the DVD was announced. Just watched it yesterday. My learning point was environmental toxins turning on / off out genetic switches and allowing us to become ill. My personal interest in that topic is my early symptoms, such as in a six day period my left eye going from 20/15 to 20/400+, I was living in a house that had been built on top of a land fill. Furthermore, my early symptoms also coincided w/ two (2) inch rain falls. My theory is the large rain falls increased the ground water level which pushed the " death vapors " through the cracks in my basement floor and into my home. I've gotten rid of virtually everything, including clothes, that had been in that house. Hoping when I get rid of the two pillows left over, that will give my health a fighting chance. My history goes, 2000 : optic neuritis, 2004 : MS, Rebif,Copaxone,2006: MS, LDN (this board / group was instrumental in my escape from the MS-cult), EAP, 2008 : Lyme disease, MANY abx, lose 40lbs, losing so much hair had to get the sticky roller used to clean up pet fur. 2010 : hired LLMD #2, restarted LDN, hired LLMD #3. Health wise, I'm in a strange puny place. STRONGLY feel that my sickness is a combination of tick bites + death vapors from the land fill underneath my previous home. > > - > > It saddens me you think by discussing an issue that ties into LDN, in which I wanted to clarify or disagree with you, as belittling you. That was not my intention. It is very healthy to disagree and I learn much when I am corrected. > > Antibiotics are part of the antimicrobial group. Infections, whether they are opportunistic or not, can and are treated with antibiotics, as well as antivirals, etc... > > I have no agenda...just sharing the knowledge...the science the researchers have shared with me. It is not what I feel or think...it is what science tells us so far. > > With overlapping symptoms, and with no known cause or definitive testing for most of the autoimmune illnesses, no one can say definitively whether these illnesses are or aren't a particular strain of Lyme, especially since testing for Lyme is so poor. Any hypothesis speaks to the need for more research...research that is efficient and effective. > > > > Torrey > President > National Tick-Borne Disease Advocates > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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