Re: A Few Random Thoughts - dormancy

[Guest guest]

Millie,

I completely agree with you! I think the infection can be slowed down by

killing spirochetes, but any that remain continue to do what they do, we

just may not notice the damage and/or our immune systems can maintain

control over a few spirochetes. This is one reason why it takes us so long

to get diagnosed at times. How many of us once we were diagnosed looked

back over the years and saw symptoms that at the time just seemed like

strange " issues " ? Maybe a cold where our extremities developed numbness?

Very strange, but once it resolved we stopped thinking about it.

I do believe that our immune systems can often fight and keep up with the

spirochetes. I believe it's a second infection or a stressful event in our

lives that causes the immune system stress that then allows the spirochetes

to get the upper hand. Not true dormancy ending due to the stressful or

traumatic event, but the inability of our immune systems to keep up with a

Lyme infection and something new. Like the inability to fight the

spirochetes in our nerves and a cold virus at the some time causing the

weird symptoms in my example above.

Sometimes our immune systems can maintain an upper hand, sometimes it can

simply keep us feeling " not right " but not totally awful, and then something

happens that gives the spirochetes the opportunity to completely overwhelm

the immune system. (Maybe long term steroid use.) Once the immune system

becomes overwhelmed then there's no hope except help from antibiotics or

possibly an alternative treatment that either kills the spirochetes or

enhances the immune system.

Though I have heard the dormancy theory mentioned many times, I have never

had a doctor say this to me or read about it in researched journal articles.

Maybe I've missed the official write up about dormancy? If so, can someone

point me in the direction where this idea has been established?

=)

Robynn

Re: [ ] A Few Random Thoughts

I think the word dormant when referring to an Infection is misleading. Not

you. The information that is out there claiming a dormant state.

An Infection just by the nature of it being just that, an infection, makes

it impossible to be dormant.

All it is doing is digging deeper and deeper into your tissues and causing

you to get sicker and sicker.

[Guest guest]

I believe your statement is a little inaccurate.

Bb doesn't " throw off " it's own DNA.

It can change forms. It can go from looking like a corkscrew to well . .

.. a blob. These blobs are called Bb in cystic form or cysts. The Outer

Surface Proteins allow the spirochete to hold it's shape often called

" standard cell wall " form . It can " shed " these Osps (Osp A, Osp B and Osp

C) and change shape. Antibiotics typically attack the Osps thus killing the

bacteria. However, when Bb changes shape there is no Outer Surface Proteins

to attack.

Bb can also transform from the standard cell wall (corkscrew shape) form to

another non-cell wall form (L-form) called spherolplast. Spherolplasts are

also not affected by the majority of antibiotics. (Though they are killed

by some.)

Non-cell wall can also be called Cell-wall deficient.

The Outer Surface Proteins that are " shed " are simply registered as negative

material, attacked by the immune system and eventually eliminated from the

body through normal means of eliminating infection. The Bb in a cell-wall

deficient form can then use nutrients/proteins found in it's environment to

recreate the Osps to form a spirochetal shape once again.

There has been some discussion from patient advocates that L-forms are

" shed " from the spirochete and those can reform into spirochetes at a later

time. This has not yet (to my knowledge) been actually proven. More likely

the spirochete becomes an L-form and then changes back to spirochete form

after the stress inducer (antibiotics and other possible influences) has

left the environment. Another theory is that a spirochete developes

within the L-form as a way of reproduction. See Dr. McNeil's paper

mentioned below.

While the L-forms and cysts are not active in the same way as spirochetes, I

have read that these forms still cause symptoms for the body and only stay

in this form while antibiotics are present. Have you read that they stay in

these forms for reasons other than antibiotic introduction in the system?

Please let me know where because I would like to read more on this topic.

Dr L. McNeil, MB, BS, MD writes, " the L forms, even the

granules, can be pathological and cause disease on their own account. "

http://www.wildernetwork.org/drtedarticle3.html (I wish Dr McNeil had

included citations in this paper so we could see where he got his

information from and allow us to further study this issue ourselves!)

Because I have no reason to doubt Dr. McNeil's research his statement

contradicts the idea that Bb is dormant in a cell-wall deficient form.

(Dr. McNeil's paper is not dated and may not reflect current research)

However - Dr Burrascano writes in his September 2005 guidelines the

following:

http://www.ilads.org/burrascano_0905.html

L-FORMS (SPHEROPLAST)- It has been recognized that B. burgdorferi can exist

in at least two, and possibly three different morphologic forms: spirochete,

spheroplast (or l-form), and the recently discovered cystic form (presently,

there is controversy whether the cyst is different from the l-form). L-forms

and cystic forms do not contain cell walls, and thus beta lactam antibiotics

will not affect them. Spheroplasts seem to be susceptible to tetracyclines

and the advanced erythromycin derivatives. Apparently, Bb can shift among

the three forms during the course of the infection. Because of this, it may

be necessary to cycle different classesof antibiotics and/or prescribe a

combination of dissimilar agents.

4. CYSTIC FORM- When present in a hostile environment, such as growth medium

lacking some nutrients, spinal fluid, or serum with certain antibiotics

added, Bb can change from the spiral form ( " spirochete " ) into a cyst form.

This cyst seems to be able to remain dormant, but when placed into an

environment more favorable to its growth, Bb can revert into the spirochete

form. The antibiotics commonly used for Lyme do not kill the cystic form of

Bb.

However, there is laboratory evidence that metronidazole and tinidazole will

disrupt it. Therefore, the chronically infected patient who has resistant

disease may need to have metronidazole (or tinidazole) added to the regimen.

More details are provided in the section on treatment options.

Dr. Burrascano does not include citations in his treatment guidelines

either - so I don't know where he is getting his research from. His

research has led him to believe that the Bb changes shape and does go

dormant when placed in an unfavorable enviroment. (This is an entirely

different concept of dormancy compared to the disease being dormant for no

reason until a stress or trauma causes it to come out of dormancy.)

I don't know how to reconcile Dr. McNeils research with Dr. Burrascano's

research without reading the scientific research that lead them to their

conclusions.

I have tried to keep this explanation simple, but as you can see this is an

extraordinarily complex microbiological issue that the world's best

scientists don't even completely understand yet. In fact, not even our own

doctors and researchers can agree on the idea of dormancy, L-forms, or other

complicated issues concerning Bb!

As is the case with so many aspects of Bb, we must wait to see what further

research will reveal to us as time goes on.

Robynn

Re: [ ] A Few Random Thoughts

No, Lyme can go dormant. it can and will throw off its own DNA to allow it

to change form, from Spirochete, to L to another that I cannot recall It

can come out when the host environment is no longer hostile and start its

replication. This bacterium is a brilliant little creature.

[Guest guest]

Robyn,

Thanks for the explanation about the 3 forms. I myself have had a

lot of questions about the L-form as that is what Bowen found for me

1:128 ratio all in L-form. But I had not seen much in the way of

explanation anywhere what it was other than it was cell wall

deficient. Now I feel more comfortable having been on metronidazole

and doxy for several months. But if all my chetes are L-form why do

I get arthritis relief when I add Zithro to the mix? In other words,

what is the Zithro attacking?

> L-FORMS (SPHEROPLAST)- It has been recognized that B. burgdorferi

can exist

> in at least two, and possibly three different morphologic forms:

spirochete,

> spheroplast (or l-form), and the recently discovered cystic form

(presently,

> there is controversy whether the cyst is different from the l-

form). L-forms

> and cystic forms do not contain cell walls, and thus beta lactam

antibiotics

> will not affect them. Spheroplasts seem to be susceptible to

tetracyclines

> and the advanced erythromycin derivatives. Apparently, Bb can

shift among

> the three forms during the course of the infection. Because of

this, it may

> be necessary to cycle different classesof antibiotics and/or

prescribe a

> combination of dissimilar agents.

>

> 4. CYSTIC FORM- When present in a hostile environment, such as

growth medium

> lacking some nutrients, spinal fluid, or serum with certain

antibiotics

> added, Bb can change from the spiral form ( " spirochete " ) into a

cyst form.

> This cyst seems to be able to remain dormant, but when placed into

an

> environment more favorable to its growth, Bb can revert into the

spirochete

> form. The antibiotics commonly used for Lyme do not kill the

cystic form of

> Bb.

> However, there is laboratory evidence that metronidazole and

tinidazole will

> disrupt it. Therefore, the chronically infected patient who has

resistant

> disease may need to have metronidazole (or tinidazole) added to

the regimen.

> More details are provided in the section on treatment options.

>

>

[Guest guest]

You are correct, sorry about that, just relaying how my LLMD explained it

to me. Guess he tried to make it as basic as he could LOL

> I believe your statement is a little inaccurate.

>

> Bb doesn't " throw off " it's own DNA.

>

> It can change forms. It can go from looking like a corkscrew to well . .

> . a blob. These blobs are called Bb in cystic form or cysts. The Outer

> Surface Proteins allow the spirochete to hold it's shape often called

> " standard cell wall " form . It can " shed " these Osps (Osp A, Osp B and

Osp

> C) and change shape. Antibiotics typically attack the Osps thus killing

the

> bacteria. However, when Bb changes shape there is no Outer Surface

Proteins

> to attack.

>

> Bb can also transform from the standard cell wall (corkscrew shape) form

to

> another non-cell wall form (L-form) called spherolplast. Spherolplasts

are

> also not affected by the majority of antibiotics. (Though they are killed

> by some.)

>

> Non-cell wall can also be called Cell-wall deficient.

>

> The Outer Surface Proteins that are " shed " are simply registered as

negative

> material, attacked by the immune system and eventually eliminated from the

> body through normal means of eliminating infection. The Bb in a cell-wall

> deficient form can then use nutrients/proteins found in it's environment

to

> recreate the Osps to form a spirochetal shape once again.

>

> There has been some discussion from patient advocates that L-forms are

> " shed " from the spirochete and those can reform into spirochetes at a

later

> time. This has not yet (to my knowledge) been actually proven. More

likely

> the spirochete becomes an L-form and then changes back to spirochete form

> after the stress inducer (antibiotics and other possible influences) has

> left the environment. Another theory is that a spirochete developes

> within the L-form as a way of reproduction. See Dr. McNeil's paper

> mentioned below.

>

> While the L-forms and cysts are not active in the same way as spirochetes,

I

> have read that these forms still cause symptoms for the body and only stay

> in this form while antibiotics are present. Have you read that they stay

in

> these forms for reasons other than antibiotic introduction in the system?

> Please let me know where because I would like to read more on this topic.

>

> Dr L. McNeil, MB, BS, MD writes, " the L forms, even the

> granules, can be pathological and cause disease on their own account. "

> http://www.wildernetwork.org/drtedarticle3.html (I wish Dr McNeil had

> included citations in this paper so we could see where he got his

> information from and allow us to further study this issue ourselves!)

>

> Because I have no reason to doubt Dr. McNeil's research his statement

> contradicts the idea that Bb is dormant in a cell-wall deficient form.

> (Dr. McNeil's paper is not dated and may not reflect current research)

>

> However - Dr Burrascano writes in his September 2005 guidelines the

> following:

> http://www.ilads.org/burrascano_0905.html

>

> L-FORMS (SPHEROPLAST)- It has been recognized that B. burgdorferi can

exist

> in at least two, and possibly three different morphologic forms:

spirochete,

> spheroplast (or l-form), and the recently discovered cystic form

(presently,

> there is controversy whether the cyst is different from the l-form).

L-forms

> and cystic forms do not contain cell walls, and thus beta lactam

antibiotics

> will not affect them. Spheroplasts seem to be susceptible to tetracyclines

> and the advanced erythromycin derivatives. Apparently, Bb can shift among

> the three forms during the course of the infection. Because of this, it

may

> be necessary to cycle different classesof antibiotics and/or prescribe a

> combination of dissimilar agents.

>

> 4. CYSTIC FORM- When present in a hostile environment, such as growth

medium

> lacking some nutrients, spinal fluid, or serum with certain antibiotics

> added, Bb can change from the spiral form ( " spirochete " ) into a cyst form.

> This cyst seems to be able to remain dormant, but when placed into an

> environment more favorable to its growth, Bb can revert into the

spirochete

> form. The antibiotics commonly used for Lyme do not kill the cystic form

of

> Bb.

> However, there is laboratory evidence that metronidazole and tinidazole

will

> disrupt it. Therefore, the chronically infected patient who has resistant

> disease may need to have metronidazole (or tinidazole) added to the

regimen.

> More details are provided in the section on treatment options.

>

>

> Dr. Burrascano does not include citations in his treatment guidelines

> either - so I don't know where he is getting his research from. His

> research has led him to believe that the Bb changes shape and does go

> dormant when placed in an unfavorable enviroment. (This is an entirely

> different concept of dormancy compared to the disease being dormant for no

> reason until a stress or trauma causes it to come out of dormancy.)

>

> I don't know how to reconcile Dr. McNeils research with Dr. Burrascano's

> research without reading the scientific research that lead them to their

> conclusions.

>

> I have tried to keep this explanation simple, but as you can see this is

an

> extraordinarily complex microbiological issue that the world's best

> scientists don't even completely understand yet. In fact, not even our

own

> doctors and researchers can agree on the idea of dormancy, L-forms, or

other

> complicated issues concerning Bb!

>

> As is the case with so many aspects of Bb, we must wait to see what

further

> research will reveal to us as time goes on.

>

> Robynn

>

>

>

> Re: [ ] A Few Random Thoughts

>

>

> No, Lyme can go dormant. it can and will throw off its own DNA to allow

it

> to change form, from Spirochete, to L to another that I cannot recall It

> can come out when the host environment is no longer hostile and start its

> replication. This bacterium is a brilliant little creature.

[Guest guest]

As I was re-reading my " simple " explanation I thought, " Oh boy. I hope

someone manages to read this in its entirety. " LOL

I highly recommend reading books and continuing to do research on Lyme and

anything our doctors tell us. This is complicated stuff!!! To explain

things in a simple way will often leave many important details out of the

picture. But over time, with continued efforts, I do believe each of can

learn the scientific details involved with this disease. Of course then

comes the challenge of explaining that to someone else in a " simple " and

straightforward manner. =)

I do my best but sometimes I fall short and sometimes I've missed the latest

research. That's where Lyme Aid can be a huge help to all of us in keeping

up with the new information. I never mind saying I'm wrong - especially

when the research is available for each of us to read and understand. I

can't imagine what are doctors feel like and go through!

=)

Robynn

Re: [ ] A Few Random Thoughts - dormancy

You are correct, sorry about that, just relaying how my LLMD explained it

to me. Guess he tried to make it as basic as he could LOL

> I believe your statement is a little inaccurate.

>

> Bb doesn't " throw off " it's own DNA.

>

> It can change forms. It can go from looking like a corkscrew to well . .

> . a blob. These blobs are called Bb in cystic form or cysts. The Outer

> Surface Proteins allow the spirochete to hold it's shape often called

> " standard cell wall " form . It can " shed " these Osps (Osp A, Osp B and

Osp

> C) and change shape. Antibiotics typically attack the Osps thus killing

the

> bacteria. However, when Bb changes shape there is no Outer Surface

Proteins

> to attack.

>

> Bb can also transform from the standard cell wall (corkscrew shape) form

to

> another non-cell wall form (L-form) called spherolplast. Spherolplasts

are

> also not affected by the majority of antibiotics. (Though they are killed

> by some.)

>

> Non-cell wall can also be called Cell-wall deficient.

>

> The Outer Surface Proteins that are " shed " are simply registered as

negative

> material, attacked by the immune system and eventually eliminated from the

> body through normal means of eliminating infection. The Bb in a cell-wall

> deficient form can then use nutrients/proteins found in it's environment

to

> recreate the Osps to form a spirochetal shape once again.

>

> There has been some discussion from patient advocates that L-forms are

> " shed " from the spirochete and those can reform into spirochetes at a

later

> time. This has not yet (to my knowledge) been actually proven. More

likely

> the spirochete becomes an L-form and then changes back to spirochete form

> after the stress inducer (antibiotics and other possible influences) has

> left the environment. Another theory is that a spirochete developes

> within the L-form as a way of reproduction. See Dr. McNeil's paper

> mentioned below.

>

> While the L-forms and cysts are not active in the same way as spirochetes,

I

> have read that these forms still cause symptoms for the body and only stay

> in this form while antibiotics are present. Have you read that they stay

in

> these forms for reasons other than antibiotic introduction in the system?

> Please let me know where because I would like to read more on this topic.

>

> Dr L. McNeil, MB, BS, MD writes, " the L forms, even the

> granules, can be pathological and cause disease on their own account. "

> http://www.wildernetwork.org/drtedarticle3.html (I wish Dr McNeil had

> included citations in this paper so we could see where he got his

> information from and allow us to further study this issue ourselves!)

>

> Because I have no reason to doubt Dr. McNeil's research his statement

> contradicts the idea that Bb is dormant in a cell-wall deficient form.

> (Dr. McNeil's paper is not dated and may not reflect current research)

>

> However - Dr Burrascano writes in his September 2005 guidelines the

> following:

> http://www.ilads.org/burrascano_0905.html

>

> L-FORMS (SPHEROPLAST)- It has been recognized that B. burgdorferi can

exist

> in at least two, and possibly three different morphologic forms:

spirochete,

> spheroplast (or l-form), and the recently discovered cystic form

(presently,

> there is controversy whether the cyst is different from the l-form).

L-forms

> and cystic forms do not contain cell walls, and thus beta lactam

antibiotics

> will not affect them. Spheroplasts seem to be susceptible to tetracyclines

> and the advanced erythromycin derivatives. Apparently, Bb can shift among

> the three forms during the course of the infection. Because of this, it

may

> be necessary to cycle different classesof antibiotics and/or prescribe a

> combination of dissimilar agents.

>

> 4. CYSTIC FORM- When present in a hostile environment, such as growth

medium

> lacking some nutrients, spinal fluid, or serum with certain antibiotics

> added, Bb can change from the spiral form ( " spirochete " ) into a cyst form.

> This cyst seems to be able to remain dormant, but when placed into an

> environment more favorable to its growth, Bb can revert into the

spirochete

> form. The antibiotics commonly used for Lyme do not kill the cystic form

of

> Bb.

> However, there is laboratory evidence that metronidazole and tinidazole

will

> disrupt it. Therefore, the chronically infected patient who has resistant

> disease may need to have metronidazole (or tinidazole) added to the

regimen.

> More details are provided in the section on treatment options.

>

>

> Dr. Burrascano does not include citations in his treatment guidelines

> either - so I don't know where he is getting his research from. His

> research has led him to believe that the Bb changes shape and does go

> dormant when placed in an unfavorable enviroment. (This is an entirely

> different concept of dormancy compared to the disease being dormant for no

> reason until a stress or trauma causes it to come out of dormancy.)

>

> I don't know how to reconcile Dr. McNeils research with Dr. Burrascano's

> research without reading the scientific research that lead them to their

> conclusions.

>

> I have tried to keep this explanation simple, but as you can see this is

an

> extraordinarily complex microbiological issue that the world's best

> scientists don't even completely understand yet. In fact, not even our

own

> doctors and researchers can agree on the idea of dormancy, L-forms, or

other

> complicated issues concerning Bb!

>

> As is the case with so many aspects of Bb, we must wait to see what

further

> research will reveal to us as time goes on.

>

> Robynn

[Guest guest]

,

I doubt, in my non-medical opinion, that you only have cell-wall deficient

forms. Any time the Bb deems itself safe it probably again changes into a

spirochetal shape. Also you may have spirochetes " hiding " in hard to reach,

hard to test places.

Just my thoughts.

=)

Robynn

[ ] Re: A Few Random Thoughts - dormancy

Robyn,

Thanks for the explanation about the 3 forms. I myself have had a

lot of questions about the L-form as that is what Bowen found for me

1:128 ratio all in L-form. But I had not seen much in the way of

explanation anywhere what it was other than it was cell wall

deficient. Now I feel more comfortable having been on metronidazole

and doxy for several months. But if all my chetes are L-form why do

I get arthritis relief when I add Zithro to the mix? In other words,

what is the Zithro attacking?

> L-FORMS (SPHEROPLAST)- It has been recognized that B. burgdorferi

can exist

> in at least two, and possibly three different morphologic forms:

spirochete,

> spheroplast (or l-form), and the recently discovered cystic form

(presently,

> there is controversy whether the cyst is different from the l-

form). L-forms

> and cystic forms do not contain cell walls, and thus beta lactam

antibiotics

> will not affect them. Spheroplasts seem to be susceptible to

tetracyclines

> and the advanced erythromycin derivatives. Apparently, Bb can

shift among

> the three forms during the course of the infection. Because of

this, it may

> be necessary to cycle different classesof antibiotics and/or

prescribe a

> combination of dissimilar agents.

>

> 4. CYSTIC FORM- When present in a hostile environment, such as

growth medium

> lacking some nutrients, spinal fluid, or serum with certain

antibiotics

> added, Bb can change from the spiral form ( " spirochete " ) into a

cyst form.

> This cyst seems to be able to remain dormant, but when placed into

an

> environment more favorable to its growth, Bb can revert into the

spirochete

> form. The antibiotics commonly used for Lyme do not kill the

cystic form of

> Bb.

> However, there is laboratory evidence that metronidazole and

tinidazole will

> disrupt it. Therefore, the chronically infected patient who has

resistant

> disease may need to have metronidazole (or tinidazole) added to

the regimen.

> More details are provided in the section on treatment options.

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> As I was re-reading my " simple " explanation I thought, " Oh boy. I hope

> someone manages to read this in its entirety. " LOL

>

> I highly recommend reading books and continuing to do research on

Lyme and

> anything our doctors tell us. This is complicated stuff!!! To explain

> things in a simple way will often leave many important details out

of the

> picture. But over time, with continued efforts, I do believe each

of can

> learn the scientific details involved with this disease. Of course

then

> comes the challenge of explaining that to someone else in a " simple "

and

> straightforward manner. =)

>

> I do my best but sometimes I fall short and sometimes I've missed

the latest

> research. That's where Lyme Aid can be a huge help to all of us in

keeping

> up with the new information. I never mind saying I'm wrong -

especially

> when the research is available for each of us to read and

understand. I

> can't imagine what are doctors feel like and go through!

>

> =)

> Robynn

>

>

> Re: [ ] A Few Random Thoughts - dormancy

>

>

> You are correct, sorry about that, just relaying how my LLMD

explained it

> to me. Guess he tried to make it as basic as he could LOL

>

>

>

>

>

> > I believe your statement is a little inaccurate.

> >

> > Bb doesn't " throw off " it's own DNA.

> >

> > It can change forms. It can go from looking like a corkscrew to

well . .

> > . a blob. These blobs are called Bb in cystic form or cysts. The

Outer

> > Surface Proteins allow the spirochete to hold it's shape often called

> > " standard cell wall " form . It can " shed " these Osps (Osp A, Osp

B and

> Osp

> > C) and change shape. Antibiotics typically attack the Osps thus

killing

> the

> > bacteria. However, when Bb changes shape there is no Outer Surface

> Proteins

> > to attack.

> >

> > Bb can also transform from the standard cell wall (corkscrew

shape) form

> to

> > another non-cell wall form (L-form) called spherolplast.

Spherolplasts

> are

> > also not affected by the majority of antibiotics. (Though they

are killed

> > by some.)

> >

> > Non-cell wall can also be called Cell-wall deficient.

> >

> > The Outer Surface Proteins that are " shed " are simply registered as

> negative

> > material, attacked by the immune system and eventually eliminated

from the

> > body through normal means of eliminating infection. The Bb in a

cell-wall

> > deficient form can then use nutrients/proteins found in it's

environment

> to

> > recreate the Osps to form a spirochetal shape once again.

> >

> > There has been some discussion from patient advocates that L-forms are

> > " shed " from the spirochete and those can reform into spirochetes at a

> later

> > time. This has not yet (to my knowledge) been actually proven. More

> likely

> > the spirochete becomes an L-form and then changes back to

spirochete form

> > after the stress inducer (antibiotics and other possible

influences) has

> > left the environment. Another theory is that a spirochete developes

> > within the L-form as a way of reproduction. See Dr. McNeil's paper

> > mentioned below.

> >

> > While the L-forms and cysts are not active in the same way as

spirochetes,

> I

> > have read that these forms still cause symptoms for the body and

only stay

> > in this form while antibiotics are present. Have you read that

they stay

> in

> > these forms for reasons other than antibiotic introduction in the

system?

> > Please let me know where because I would like to read more on this

topic.

> >

> > Dr L. McNeil, MB, BS, MD writes, " the L forms, even the

> > granules, can be pathological and cause disease on their own account. "

> > http://www.wildernetwork.org/drtedarticle3.html (I wish Dr McNeil had

> > included citations in this paper so we could see where he got his

> > information from and allow us to further study this issue ourselves!)

> >

> > Because I have no reason to doubt Dr. McNeil's research his statement

> > contradicts the idea that Bb is dormant in a cell-wall deficient form.

> > (Dr. McNeil's paper is not dated and may not reflect current research)

> >

> > However - Dr Burrascano writes in his September 2005 guidelines the

> > following:

> > http://www.ilads.org/burrascano_0905.html

> >

> > L-FORMS (SPHEROPLAST)- It has been recognized that B. burgdorferi can

> exist

> > in at least two, and possibly three different morphologic forms:

> spirochete,

> > spheroplast (or l-form), and the recently discovered cystic form

> (presently,

> > there is controversy whether the cyst is different from the l-form).

> L-forms

> > and cystic forms do not contain cell walls, and thus beta lactam

> antibiotics

> > will not affect them. Spheroplasts seem to be susceptible to

tetracyclines

> > and the advanced erythromycin derivatives. Apparently, Bb can

shift among

> > the three forms during the course of the infection. Because of

this, it

> may

> > be necessary to cycle different classesof antibiotics and/or

prescribe a

> > combination of dissimilar agents.

> >

> > 4. CYSTIC FORM- When present in a hostile environment, such as growth

> medium

> > lacking some nutrients, spinal fluid, or serum with certain

antibiotics

> > added, Bb can change from the spiral form ( " spirochete " ) into a

cyst form.

> > This cyst seems to be able to remain dormant, but when placed into an

> > environment more favorable to its growth, Bb can revert into the

> spirochete

> > form. The antibiotics commonly used for Lyme do not kill the

cystic form

> of

> > Bb.

> > However, there is laboratory evidence that metronidazole and

tinidazole

> will

> > disrupt it. Therefore, the chronically infected patient who has

resistant

> > disease may need to have metronidazole (or tinidazole) added to the

> regimen.

> > More details are provided in the section on treatment options.

> >

> >

> > Dr. Burrascano does not include citations in his treatment guidelines

> > either - so I don't know where he is getting his research from. His

> > research has led him to believe that the Bb changes shape and does go

> > dormant when placed in an unfavorable enviroment. (This is an

entirely

> > different concept of dormancy compared to the disease being

dormant for no

> > reason until a stress or trauma causes it to come out of dormancy.)

> >

> > I don't know how to reconcile Dr. McNeils research with Dr.

Burrascano's

> > research without reading the scientific research that lead them to

their

> > conclusions.

> >

> > I have tried to keep this explanation simple, but as you can see

this is

> an

> > extraordinarily complex microbiological issue that the world's best

> > scientists don't even completely understand yet. In fact, not

even our

> own

> > doctors and researchers can agree on the idea of dormancy, L-forms, or

> other

> > complicated issues concerning Bb!

> >

> > As is the case with so many aspects of Bb, we must wait to see what

> further

> > research will reveal to us as time goes on.

> >

> > Robynn

>

Well, I sure learned a lot of valuable info here today. WOW Thank-you~!~

[Guest guest]

Very well said Robyn!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats why your so good at doing this

list. God Bless,

Bev

[Guest guest]

Robynn,

I thought your explanation of the various forms of Lyme was very

clear. I've never thought of Lyme as going dormant, but as " hiding

out " from my immune system -- that's my way of describing it when

I'm explaining to non-Lymies why I've taken so many different

antibiotics.

This is absolutely complicated stuff! You are so right to encourage

people to do lots of reading. And I agree that the best materials

are well documented and have thorough footnotes and bibliographies.

I can't wade through the microbiology so I greatly appreciate

those " translators " who write clear explanations of what the primary

sources say.

is also a good resource, as are some of the other

Lyme groups. It was in the Maine Lyme group that I first learned of

Buhner's book. It was in that I first learned of

Burrascano's protocol.

All that said, I have taken breaks from Lyme reading, mostly because

I was satisfied with how my knowledge was assisting me at the time.

When my knowledge and experience don't reinforce each other, I know

it's time to " hit the books " again, whatever form those books take.

Jessie

>

> As I was re-reading my " simple " explanation I thought, " Oh boy. I

hope

> someone manages to read this in its entirety. " LOL

>

> I highly recommend reading books and continuing to do research on

Lyme and

> anything our doctors tell us. This is complicated stuff!!! To

explain

> things in a simple way will often leave many important details out

of the

> picture. But over time, with continued efforts, I do believe each

of can

> learn the scientific details involved with this disease. Of

course then

> comes the challenge of explaining that to someone else in

a " simple " and

> straightforward manner. =)

>

> I do my best but sometimes I fall short and sometimes I've missed

the latest

> research. That's where Lyme Aid can be a huge help to all of us

in keeping

> up with the new information. I never mind saying I'm wrong -

especially

> when the research is available for each of us to read and

understand. I

> can't imagine what are doctors feel like and go through!

>

> =)

> Robynn

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes,

I believe that was my point dormant is just not what is happening.

Boy, I was in a Doctors office yesterday trying to explain why it is not

simply cured with a course of Abx. Especially if it has gone undiagnosed for

years. Like in my own case.

I just can't. I have studied and studied for my own edification.

If a Doctor really wants to know how the mechanism of Late Stage Lyme works,

its their responsibility to read up on the latest studies.

Millie

Jessie MacMillan <jessiemacmillan@...> wrote:

Robynn,

I thought your explanation of the various forms of Lyme was very

clear. I've never thought of Lyme as going dormant, but as " hiding

out " from my immune system -- that's my way of describing it when

I'm explaining to non-Lymies why I've taken so many different

antibiotics.

This is absolutely complicated stuff! You are so right to encourage

people to do lots of reading. And I agree that the best materials

are well documented and have thorough footnotes and bibliographies.

I can't wade through the microbiology so I greatly appreciate

those " translators " who write clear explanations of what the primary

sources say.

is also a good resource, as are some of the other

Lyme groups. It was in the Maine Lyme group that I first learned of

Buhner's book. It was in that I first learned of

Burrascano's protocol.

All that said, I have taken breaks from Lyme reading, mostly because

I was satisfied with how my knowledge was assisting me at the time.

When my knowledge and experience don't reinforce each other, I know

it's time to " hit the books " again, whatever form those books take.

Jessie

[Guest guest]

I agree that doctors have a responsibility to stay current with the

research, but I also believe that we have a responsibility to stay

current as well. We don't have to read the research studies, but we do

need to read well-sourced articles, reports, and books.

I'm fortunate to have a very good LLMD who keeps up with the

literature; I still do lots of reading anyway because I'm an active

participant in decisions about my treatment. Not everyone has an LLMD

or a very good LLMD; in that case, the best they can do is find a

doctor who is willing to learn. The best doctors appreciate patients

who help them learn.

Jessie

>

>

>

> If a Doctor really wants to know how the mechanism of Late Stage

Lyme works, its their responsibility to read up on the latest studies.

>

> Millie

>

>>

[Guest guest]

Jessie,

We all need to take time away from Lyme disease every now and then!

I too have spent lots of time reading only to find myself burned out for a

little while. In fact I have found a way to run Lyme Aid that allows me to

get done what I need to get done, but also allows me significant time doing

things not related to Lyme. It's the only way I've been able to do this for

so long.

The important thing to know is that medical treatment decisions need to be

researched and discussed with one's doctor. Don't trust laymen's

explanations, use them as a starting point for your own research or as a

place to start when asking questions of your doctor. (Research isn't easy

for all of us but we can all ask our doc's questions when we see them.)

And find something that brings you joy to do or participate in on a regular

basis. I know this disease effects every moment of our lives, but I do

believe it's possible from time to time to do something fun or participate

in something that brings us joy that allows us to forget about Lyme for at

least a few moments. Those are the moments we need to hold on to.

=)

Robynn

[ ] Re: A Few Random Thoughts - dormancy

Robynn,

I thought your explanation of the various forms of Lyme was very

clear. I've never thought of Lyme as going dormant, but as " hiding

out " from my immune system -- that's my way of describing it when

I'm explaining to non-Lymies why I've taken so many different

antibiotics.

This is absolutely complicated stuff! You are so right to encourage

people to do lots of reading. And I agree that the best materials

are well documented and have thorough footnotes and bibliographies.

I can't wade through the microbiology so I greatly appreciate

those " translators " who write clear explanations of what the primary

sources say.

is also a good resource, as are some of the other

Lyme groups. It was in the Maine Lyme group that I first learned of

Buhner's book. It was in that I first learned of

Burrascano's protocol.

All that said, I have taken breaks from Lyme reading, mostly because

I was satisfied with how my knowledge was assisting me at the time.

When my knowledge and experience don't reinforce each other, I know

it's time to " hit the books " again, whatever form those books take.

Jessie