Re: Taking LDN more than once per day is a NO NO!!

[Guest guest]

I wonder if the effect might be quite good for someone with a very high metabolismwho is treating some disease other that MS or cancer. Certainly, I've heard of one or two cases where this was true.The length of time of the blockade is dose dependent combined with metabolism rate.People vary from one to another and I feel sure that twice a day blockade would not be recommended except in rare situations. I would not want to take part in denying that rare person the benefits of twice a dosing by making a blanket prohibition against it. JackieFrom: bren_ldn <TwisterAlley2@...>Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Taking LDN more than once per day is a NO NO!!low dose naltrexone Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010, 6:09 PMYou block endorphins too long that way causing the opposite effect of what one dose of LDN does and your disease will progress/worsen taking LDN more than once per day., LDN user 7 yrs(July 2010) for chronic progressive MS

[Guest guest]

If that is true, which there seems to be some doubt about,  then someone needs to get in contact with whoever owns the ldnscience.org site and get them to take it off the site.

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 7:09 PM, bren_ldn <TwisterAlley2@...> wrote:

 

You block endorphins too long that way causing the opposite effect of what one dose of LDN does and your disease will progress/worsen taking LDN more than once per day.

, LDN user 7 yrs(July 2010) for chronic progressive MS

[Guest guest]

Dr. Bihari's work showed a decline in the NK(Natural Killer) cell level as the

dosage increased beyond the window he discovered (for adults) to be 1.75mg to

4.5mg, along with increasing impairment of immune function.

Dr. Jaquelyn McCandless

Posted by , LDN user 7 yrs next month for progressive MS

[Guest guest]

I'm glad that everyone seems to be thinking outside of our ldn box now that Ginny referred us to the Q & A on ldnscience.org about some people dosing twice a day.  I also do believe that Ginny is certainly an exception to the normal dosing rules. But, for those who were not helped my LDN, perhaps and increased dose is the answer.

Isn't ldnscience.org a site that Dr. Zagon is affiliated with? Because that is where the info about some dosing up to 10 mg and/or up to 5mg twice a day is found.

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 7:33 PM, carcinoidwarrior <carcinoidwarrior@...> wrote:

 

I wonder if the effect might be quite good for someone with a very high metabolismwho is treating some disease other that MS or cancer.  Certainly, I've heard of one or two cases where this was true.

The length of time of the blockade is dose dependent combined with metabolism rate.People vary from one to another and I feel sure that twice a day blockade would not be recommended except in rare situations.  I would not want to take part in denying that rare person the benefits of twice a dosing by making a blanket prohibition against it. 

Jackie

From: bren_ldn <TwisterAlley2@...>Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Taking LDN more than once per day is a NO NO!!low dose naltrexone

Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010, 6:09 PMYou block endorphins too long that way causing the opposite effect of what one dose of LDN does and your disease will progress/worsen taking LDN more than once per day.

, LDN user 7 yrs(July 2010) for chronic progressive MS

[Guest guest]

Medical science is far from having understood the workings of the human body in their entirety. It seems to me that for some people their illness may respond better to twice a day dosing due to the manner in which their immune systems are dysfunctional.What if their NK cell levels are too high, or their bodies overproduce other sorts of immune cells while others are at normal levels? Since LDN/OGF is known to downregulate all cell production, it could well be that that is the very effect they benefit from most. And as LDN/OGF is thought to modulate the immune system, in the presence of normal levels of NK cells they would not need more as part of their therapy.We just won't know for some time to come as this branch of medical research is still too young and undeveloped. Meanwhile, people

who use LDN/OGF to treat an increasing number of immune disorders, will all contribute to progress in this area of knowledge.I find it so interesting when I learn of new ways LDN is being used, and I want to stay open-minded about what its effects are and how they are achieved.JackieFrom: bren_ldn <TwisterAlley2@...>Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Taking LDN more than once per day is a NO NO!!low dose naltrexone Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010, 10:35 PMDr. Bihari's work showed a decline in the NK(Natural Killer) cell level as the dosage increased beyond the window he discovered (for adults) to be

1.75mg to 4.5mg, along with increasing impairment of immune function. Dr. Jaquelyn McCandless Posted by , LDN user 7 yrs next month for progressive MS------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Moshe Rogosnitzky, founder of http://www.medinsight.org/, established http://www.ldnscience.org/ and http://www.adjuvantmed.com/, and has been involved with LDN research and clinical applications of it (alongside Dr. Zagon) and other drugs for a very long time. The people involved with this LDN research, all of them without exclusion, have given us so much to be thankful for and they continue to expand our knowledge of LDN's workings and benefits. Let's view all new developments in LDN science and application with interest and respect for what it teaches us.You know that bon mot - the mind is like a

parachute, it only works when open.Jackie

From: bren_ldn <TwisterAlley2@...>Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Taking LDN more than once per day is a NO NO!!low dose naltrexone

Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010, 6:09 PMYou block endorphins too long that way causing the opposite effect of what one dose of LDN does and your disease will progress/worsen taking LDN more than once per day.

, LDN user 7 yrs(July 2010) for chronic progressive MS

[Guest guest]

>Medical science is far from having understood the workings of the human

>body in their entirety.

This is so true.

> Since LDN/OGF is known to downregulate all cell production, it could

> well be that that is the very effect they benefit from most.

I doubt this is true. If someone is studying the effect of LDN on cancer

patients, then they would be seeing downregulated cell production, because

that is what the body needs in order to heal. LDN isn't actually doing any

healing work here. It is simply creating a bump in endogenous endorphin

production, which the body then uses as is needed in order to heal, using

its own wisdom. We already know that the LDN effect helps people with a

wide range of illnesses, and that is because it simply allows the body

optimal conditions for it to heal itself.

So I'm not surprised that studies of cancer patients would show LDN/OGF

downregulating cell production, but I sincerely doubt that would be found

to be true for other illnesses. It's a simple fact that the endorphin

system doesn't simply downregulate cell production. If it did, how would

wounds heal? Remember that the endorphin system is the body's arsenal

which it uses to heal whatever ails ye. That is the wisdom of the body.

--

>And as LDN/OGF is thought to modulate the immune system, in the presence

>of normal levels of NK cells they would not need more as part of their therapy.

>

>We just won't know for some time to come as this branch of medical

>research is still too young and undeveloped. Meanwhile, people who use

>LDN/OGF to treat an increasing number of immune disorders, will all

>contribute to progress in this area of knowledge.

>

>I find it so interesting when I learn of new ways LDN is being used, and I

>want to stay open-minded about what its effects are and how they are achieved.

>

>Jackie

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

,When you have looked at LDN/OGF effects under an electron microscope, I'll be interestedto hear about what you see. Until then I'll take the word of the people who have done that research. Usually when people discuss LDN effects they are talking about OGF effectsas LDN acts as catalyst to OGF production.OGF is a growth factor that regulates growth rates of every cell in the body, not just immune cells, not just cancer cells. Its other function is as a neurotransmitter. I don't know if it has others. But as a growth factor I believe it is understood to act as such for all cells. Check out the short video on the homepage of LDN Science http://www.ldnscience.org/Jackie--- On Fri, 6/11/10, Baker <vbaker@...> wrote:From: Baker <vbaker@...>Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Taking LDN more than once per day is a NO NO!!low dose naltrexone Date: Friday, June 11, 2010, 12:34 PM>Medical science is far from having understood the workings of the human >body in their entirety.This is so true.> Since LDN/OGF is known to downregulate all cell production, it could > well be that that is the very effect they benefit from most.I doubt this is true. If someone is studying the effect of LDN on cancer patients, then they would be seeing

downregulated cell production, because that is what the body needs in order to heal. LDN isn't actually doing any healing work here. It is simply creating a bump in endogenous endorphin production, which the body then uses as is needed in order to heal, using its own wisdom. We already know that the LDN effect helps people with a wide range of illnesses, and that is because it simply allows the body optimal conditions for it to heal itself.So I'm not surprised that studies of cancer patients would show LDN/OGF downregulating cell production, but I sincerely doubt that would be found to be true for other illnesses. It's a simple fact that the endorphin system doesn't simply downregulate cell production. If it did, how would wounds heal? Remember that the endorphin system is the body's arsenal which it uses to heal whatever ails ye. That is the wisdom of the

body.--

[Guest guest]

How many years has Ginny been taking LDN twice per day and at what dosage and

for what illness? Is it fast release or sustained release?

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree, we just don't know exactly how the endorphins produced by blockade of the other opioid receptors contribute to the effects LDN has on autoimmune diseases. There has been some clinical measurement of certain endorphins and immune cells, but the theories of the genesis of autoimmune disease have not yet been scientifically demonstrated. We have clues but no firm data. So it is difficult to speculate as to what effects are put into gear beyond the initial effects LDN triggers in our bodies, except in a few cases.The OGF/OGFr axis by which cell growth is downregulated explains how cancer iscontrolled through LDN/OGF. But this downregulation effect is applied to the growth of all cells, including certain immune cells. And how the so-called modulation of the immune system is achieved is not

understood, but we assume it has something to do with OGF as well as the other endorphins. In its role as neurotransmitter we know it inhibits pain signals, but what exactly are the chemical processes involved I don't think we know yet. But we do know for sure that OGF is used by every cell in the body - we didn't know that before.If fibromyalgia is caused by too much Substance P as it partners with glutamate - well if OGF in it neurotransmitter role as met enkephalin has some reducing effect on glutamate that might reduce the opportunities for Substance P to partner up with glutamate and cause symptoms. I don't know, I'm just saying that we don't know yet - it could be that met enkephalin (OGF) has some kind of overseeing function. We won't know what it does until the scientific research is performed. I think you understand what I'm suggesting.But again, I will

say it is not a matter of either/or, either patient evidence and doctors' observations or scientific inquiry - it's both - it's always both. They inspire and feed each other, they check each other, too.Scientific research is a very slow methodical activity - I know I will not live long enough to be able to read everything there is to know about LDN's effects on the body, unless LDN can effect that - I would have to call it this - miracle, too.JackieSoul without science is superstition. Science without soul is sadism.>>From: Baker <vbaker@...>>Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Taking LDN more than once per day is >a NO NO!!>low dose naltrexone >Date: Friday, June 11, 2010, 12:34 PM>>> >Medical science is far from having understood the workings of the human> >body in their entirety.>>This is so true.>> > Since LDN/OGF is known to downregulate all cell production, it could> > well be that that is the very effect they benefit from most.>>I doubt this is true. If someone is studying the effect of LDN on cancer>patients,

then they would be seeing downregulated cell production, because>that is what the body needs in order to heal. LDN isn't actually doing any>healing work here. It is simply creating a bump in endogenous endorphin>production, which the body then uses as is needed in order to heal, using>its own wisdom. We already know that the LDN effect helps people with a>wide range of illnesses, and that is because it simply allows the body>optimal conditions for it to heal itself.>>So I'm not surprised that studies of cancer patients would show LDN/OGF>downregulating cell production, but I sincerely doubt that would be found>to be true for other illnesses. It's a simple fact that the endorphin>system doesn't simply downregulate cell production. If it did, how would>wounds heal? Remember that the endorphin system is the body's arsenal>which it uses

to heal whatever ails ye. That is the wisdom of the body.>>--~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Jackie-- Thank you for writing that we don't know how it works for diseases

other than cancer. Your recent posts didn't express that, and that's why I

felt the need to clarify.

I continue to maintain that because the wisdom of the body is what is

actually doing the healing here, whatever type of healing that a body needs

is how the endorphins will be applied by the body. Unlike other pharma

drugs, the body's endorphins are perfectly capable of making distinctions

between a need to prevent cell growth and the need to boost it, depending

on the illness involved. Unlike pharma drugs, a person cannot overdose on

endorphins.

That is how this single drug can be useful in such a wide range of

illnesses, as someone recently posted their doctor complained in a negative

way. It's because the drug in question is not telling the body what to do,

except for the brief blockade that increases the best healing substances in

the world-- the body's own endorphins.

btw, I have been in tune with the research into endorphins since the 80s

when it first started coming out, so this is not a new area of thought for

me. My understanding of endorphins is why I jumped on LDN when I learned of it.

--

At 03:42 PM 6/11/2010, you wrote:

>Yes, I agree, we just don't know exactly how the endorphins produced by

>blockade of the other opioid receptors contribute to the effects LDN has

>on autoimmune diseases. There has been some clinical measurement of

>certain endorphins and immune cells, but the theories of the genesis of

>autoimmune disease have not yet been scientifically demonstrated. We have

>clues but no firm data. So it is difficult to speculate as to what

>effects are put into gear beyond the initial effects LDN triggers in our

>bodies, except in a few cases.

>

>The OGF/OGFr axis by which cell growth is downregulated explains how cancer is

>controlled through LDN/OGF. But this downregulation effect is applied to

>the growth of all cells, including certain immune cells. And how the

>so-called modulation of the immune system is achieved is not understood,

>but we assume it has something to do with OGF as well as the other

>endorphins. In its role as neurotransmitter we know it inhibits pain

>signals, but what exactly are the chemical processes involved I don't

>think we know yet. But we do know for sure that OGF is used by every cell

>in the body - we didn't know that before.

>

>If fibromyalgia is caused by too much Substance P as it partners with

>glutamate - well if OGF in it neurotransmitter role as met enkephalin has

>some reducing effect on glutamate that might reduce the opportunities for

>Substance P to partner up with glutamate and cause symptoms. I don't

>know, I'm just saying that we don't know yet - it could be that met

>enkephalin (OGF) has some kind of overseeing function. We won't know what

>it does until the scientific research is performed. I think you

>understand what I'm suggesting.

>

>But again, I will say it is not a matter of either/or, either patient

>evidence and doctors' observations or scientific inquiry - it's both -

>it's always both. They inspire and feed each other, they check each

>other, too.

>

>Scientific research is a very slow methodical activity - I know I will not

>live long enough to be able to read everything there is to know about

>LDN's effects on the body, unless LDN can effect that - I would have to

>call it this - miracle, too.

>

>Jackie

>

>Soul without science is superstition. Science without soul is sadism.

>

>

>

>

>From: Baker <vbaker@...>

>Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Taking LDN more than once per day is

>a NO NO!!

>low dose naltrexone

>Date: Friday, June 11, 2010, 2:23 PM

>

>Jackie--

>

>I watched the video. I'm not arguing against the effect of OGF (opioid

>growth factor) as they are describing it. However, that is not the only

>endorphin that is affected by LDN, and to focus all commentary (here on

>this list) about LDN as pertaining to the effects of OGF is, in my opinion,

>limited and therefore inaccurate. Clearly they understand OGF. But that

>leaves out the rest of the endorphin family and why LDN works on so many

>other diseases, ones with very different healing requirements than for

>cancer. OGF effects do not explain relief of fibromyalgia, for example, but

>yet clearly LDN works for fibro.

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

One clarification ,When I said "The OGF/OGFr axis by which cell growth is downregulated" I should have said regulated not downregulated. OGF regulates cell growth. Too little OGF and regulation is disrupted. Just the right amount of OGF and cell growth is regulated to a certain rate.Too much OGF and it upregulates cell growth so that if a body has cancer or a precancerous condition, that cancer could take off like a weed.So don't say you cannot have too much OGF - you can in certain circumstances. If wewere to take a dose of LDN that blockaded our receptors for too long a time, the rebound effect might be so powerful as to produce too much OGF, and that could speed cell growth and become problematic.That is why

we are cautioned to not take LDN more than once a day, and to take only the amount that works for us. But, there are exceptions as there often are to rules.For instance, there are times when upregulated cell growth is desirable, as in wound healing. Dr. Zagon has found that a topical cream containing high dose naltrexone speeds up wound healing when applied to the wounded area. All that naltrexone blockades the receptors of the local cells and the strong rebound produces high levels of OGF which goes to work speeding up cell growth rate. And he found that the new cells grown this way are healthier with fewer replication errors than if left alone to replicate and heal without naltrexone.And Dr Zagon and Moshe Rogonitzky have used naltrexone given in two doses 12 hours apart to treat one or two people. I hope the details will be written up. Many

people are surprised by this development.Such an interesting area of medical research! I find it fascinating!Jackie>>From: Baker <vbaker@...>>Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Taking LDN more than once per day is >a NO NO!!>low dose naltrexone >Date: Friday, June 11, 2010, 2:23 PM>>Jackie-->>I watched the video. I'm not arguing against the effect of OGF (opioid>growth factor) as they are describing it. However, that is not the only>endorphin that is affected by LDN, and to focus all commentary (here on>this list) about LDN as pertaining to the effects of OGF is, in my opinion,>limited and therefore inaccurate. Clearly they understand OGF. But that>leaves out the rest of the endorphin family and why LDN works on so many>other diseases, ones with very different healing requirements than

for>cancer. OGF effects do not explain relief of fibromyalgia, for example, but>yet clearly LDN works for fibro.~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Jackie,

don't most people report having fingernails and hair grow faster on LDN? I think

I remember reading that and it seems true for me. If true, then down-regulation

of cell growth can't be the only effect for all cell types.

> The OGF/OGFr axis by which cell growth is downregulated explains how cancer

iscontrolled through LDN/OGF. �But this downregulation effect is applied to

the growth of all cells, including certain immune cells.

[Guest guest]

Yep, that's my experience.

[low dose naltrexone] Re: Taking LDN more than once per day is a NO NO!!

Jackie,don't most people report having fingernails and hair grow faster on LDN? I think I remember reading that and it seems true for me. If true, then down-regulation of cell growth can't be the only effect for all cell types.> The OGF/OGFr axis by which cell growth is downregulated explains how cancer iscontrolled through LDN/OGF. �But this downregulation effect is applied to the growth of all cells, including certain immune cells. ------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Don't know if it's due to LDN, but my hair and nails seems to grow faster since

starting.

Art

My MS/LDN story/1988 - 2010

http://ldn.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=personal & action=display & thread=867

--

>

> > The OGF/OGFr

> axis by which cell growth is downregulated explains how cancer iscontrolled

> through LDN/OGF. �But this downregulation effect is applied to the growth

of

> all cells, including certain immune cells.

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

> Links

>

>

> Traditional

>

>    

> ( ID required)

>

>

>     low dose naltrexone-fullfeatured

>

[Guest guest]

Mine does too but not sure if there’s a connection – maybe it’s

age????

Jayne Crocker

www.LDNNow.com

Important!  Please sign our LDN petition to the European

Parliament by clicking here

tel: +44 (0) 7877 492 669

Dr Steele MBE, talking about LDN

LDNNow, a patient and friend led organisation (so not a charity)

with no funding and no affiliation to any company or organisation, but rather a

group of concerned individuals focussed on improving the health of those who

suffer from the many diseases and conditions that LDN treats.

From: low dose naltrexone

[mailto:low dose naltrexone ] On Behalf Of art_ldn

Sent: 12 June 2010 19:49

low dose naltrexone

Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Taking LDN more than once per day is a

NO NO!!

Don't know if it's due to LDN, but my hair and

nails seems to grow faster since starting.

Art

My MS/LDN story/1988 - 2010

http://ldn.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=personal & action=display & thread=867

--

>

> > The OGF/OGFr

> axis by which cell growth is downregulated explains how cancer

iscontrolled

> through LDN/OGF. �But this downregulation effect is applied to the

growth of

> all cells, including certain immune cells.

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

> Links

>

>

> Traditional

>

>

> ( ID required)

>

>

> low dose naltrexone-fullfeatured

>

[Guest guest]

..Just because they aren't understood doesn't mean they aren't real and active and major. That is where you're going wrong here, Jackie, is that only one facet is understood and you keep trying to make all of LDN's action about one facet, in isolation. That may be useful in the lab but not in real life.--

It would be nice if this challenging behaviour stopped, debate yes, the rest forget it, we don't want to hear it.....