FW: Dosing of LDN twice a day at 4.5mg

[Guest guest]

Further to my earlier email from Dr Zagon, I questioned LDN being an immuno

suppressant - please see his response below and articles attached.

Jayne Crocker

Dear Jayne:

We have a paper in press - Immunobiology - that B lymphocytes are

suppressed in cell proliferation by the OGF-OGFr axis

- this is how LDN does its job. When the paper comes out I will send it to

you. We have another paper submitted showing that T lymphocytes are also

suppressed in cell proliferation by OGF. Our studies under in vivo

conditions are underway and stand in agreement with our other results.

I have spent considerable time in these studies reviewing much of

the flawed investigations from past researchers giving the false impression

that LDN is an immunostimulant. There are papers suggesting otherwise - we

have nailed it down to the molecular level. Knockdown OGFr and OGF does not

work!!! Now, use your head - would you want more immune response if you

have MS or arthritis or lupus. No. This would make autoimmune diseases

worse. If I did not do so earlier, I will attach 2 papers on MS.

Dr. Zagon

2 of 2 File(s)

LDNMS.pdf

v1310_154_161_2010OGFMS.pdf

[Guest guest]

How can LDN suppress the immune system when it can affect the effects of

steroids, render them incapable of working and steroids can do just the opposite

to LDN?

>

> Further to my earlier email from Dr Zagon, I questioned LDN being an immuno

> suppressant - please see his response below and articles attached.

>

> Jayne Crocker

>

> Dear Jayne:

> We have a paper in press - Immunobiology - that B lymphocytes are

> suppressed in cell proliferation by the OGF-OGFr axis

> - this is how LDN does its job. When the paper comes out I will send it to

> you. We have another paper submitted showing that T lymphocytes are also

> suppressed in cell proliferation by OGF. Our studies under in vivo

> conditions are underway and stand in agreement with our other results.

> I have spent considerable time in these studies reviewing much of

> the flawed investigations from past researchers giving the false impression

> that LDN is an immunostimulant. There are papers suggesting otherwise - we

> have nailed it down to the molecular level. Knockdown OGFr and OGF does not

> work!!! Now, use your head - would you want more immune response if you

> have MS or arthritis or lupus. No. This would make autoimmune diseases

> worse. If I did not do so earlier, I will attach 2 papers on MS.

> Dr. Zagon

>

[Guest guest]

> Now, use your head - would you want more immune response if you

> > have MS or arthritis or lupus. No. This would make autoimmune diseases

> > worse. If I did not do so earlier, I will attach 2 papers on MS.

> > Dr. Zagon

I'm sorry, but this viewpoint on autoimmune diseases is outmoded. It is now

well known among cutting edge researchers, nutritional therapists,

naturopaths, and integrative physicians that autoimmune diseases are the

result of too little immune activity, not too much.

Probably the old view of such diseases is why there has been so little

progress in treating them. But stimulation of the immune system,

strengthening of the immune system, increases health and decreases debility

from such diseases.

I also agree with Art's and Cris's comments.

--

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

The science Zagon is doing is really not disputable - looking at these cells at the molecular level is as deep as we humans can look into our biology at present. Immuno-deficiency diseases are not in the same class as auto-immune diseases - two different dysfunctions.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_system#HypersensitivityDisorders in the immune system can result in disease. Immunodeficiency occurs when the immune system is less active than normal, resulting in recurring and life-threatening infections. Immunodeficiency can either be the result of a genetic disease, such as severe combined immunodeficiency, or be produced by pharmaceuticals or an infection, such as the acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS) that is caused by the retrovirus HIV. In contrast, autoimmune diseases result from a hyperactive immune system attacking normal tissues as if they were foreign organisms. Common autoimmune diseases include Hashimoto's thyroiditis, rheumatoid arthritis, diabetes mellitus type 1, and lupus erythematosus. Immunology covers the study of all aspects of the immune system, having significant relevance to health and diseases. Further investigation in this field is expected to play a serious role in promotion of health and treatment of diseases.From: Baker <vbaker@...>Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: FW: Dosing of LDN twice a day at 4.5mgTo:

low dose naltrexone Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 10:12 PM> Now, use your head - would you want more immune response if you> > have MS or arthritis or lupus. No. This would make autoimmune diseases> > worse. If I did not do so earlier, I will attach 2 papers on MS.> > Dr. ZagonI'm sorry, but this viewpoint on autoimmune diseases is outmoded. It is now well known among cutting edge researchers, nutritional therapists, naturopaths, and integrative physicians that autoimmune diseases are the result of too little immune activity, not too much.Probably the old view of such diseases is why there has been so little progress in treating them. But stimulation of the immune system, strengthening of the immune system, increases health and decreases debility from such

diseases.I also agree with Art's and Cris's comments.--~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Thanks you , Cris, and others, for making these points and so clearly. I have to say what you write describes what I've always understood and more, and it makes sense, both theoretically and in my own experience. Personally I find Dr Zagon's comments and the tone he uses more confusing than enlightening and can't relate my experience to them at all.When I started LDN in April last year I was as nervous about it as the next person. I relied on the advice given on this group and 's board from people who've been using LDN for years. Like most people I was lucky and have no problems with it - on the contrary I've not regretted taking it for one moment. At the very least it's saved

me from having to have surgery and I've enjoying many more benefits. I feel badly for people who aren't so lucky and don't respond to LDN so well. I often think that it would be really beneficial if researchers could spend more time trying to understand why.Margaret From: Baker <vbaker@...>low dose naltrexone Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 5:12:47 AMSubject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: FW: Dosing of LDN twice a day at 4.5mg

> Now, use your head - would you want more immune response if you

> > have MS or arthritis or lupus. No. This would make autoimmune diseases

> > worse. If I did not do so earlier, I will attach 2 papers on MS.

> > Dr. Zagon

I'm sorry, but this viewpoint on autoimmune diseases is outmoded. It is now

well known among cutting edge researchers, nutritional therapists,

naturopaths, and integrative physicians that autoimmune diseases are the

result of too little immune activity, not too much.

Probably the old view of such diseases is why there has been so little

progress in treating them. But stimulation of the immune system,

strengthening of the immune system, increases health and decreases debility

from such diseases.

I also agree with Art's and Cris's comments.

--

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

MMmmm I have to disagree .. I have MS complicated by Hashimotos. This seems to

be common for others on this forum. My immune system was in overdrive attacking

my body. This was confirmed by testing and being put on prednisone to knock out

my immune system. I am a currently in remission for my MS, per my doc. However

I am still fighting the battle with Hashimotos. Every person with immune

problems has different levels of medical issues. Mari

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: FW: Dosing of LDN twice a day at

4.5mg

> Now, use your head - would you want more immune response if you

> > have MS or arthritis or lupus. No. This would make autoimmune diseases

> > worse. If I did not do so earlier, I will attach 2 papers on MS.

> > Dr. Zagon

I'm sorry, but this viewpoint on autoimmune diseases is outmoded. It is now

well known among cutting edge researchers, nutritional therapists,

naturopaths, and integrative physicians that autoimmune diseases are the

result of too little immune activity, not too much.

Probably the old view of such diseases is why there has been so little

progress in treating them. But stimulation of the immune system,

strengthening of the immune system, increases health and decreases debility

from such diseases.

I also agree with Art's and Cris's comments.

--

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

All this Wikipedia article is doing is regurgitating the old viewpoint that

is being debunked by integrative medicine. I have autoimmune diseases

(Hashimoto's, fibromyalgia, vitilago), and I've also been studying

alternatives to Western medicine, and intergrative medicine, since the late

1970s. Just like everyone else, I bought the old theory, and when I found

that I had autoimmune disease in the early 2000s I thought that it meant my

immune system was overactive. I since learned differently.

Scientists always say that they can dissect the truth out of the body, but

the body holds mysteries still. For instance, only recently has science

" discovered " that phytonutrients, such as natural blue and red colors in

food, are extremely important to our health, whereas in the past it was

assumed " everything " was known about the molecules of food.

I've been having the argument, with scientistic types, about the difference

between whole nutrition and dissected nutrition since the 1970s. Now

science catches up to what many traditions have long known.

I believe that similar limitations apply to these questions about LDN.

Scientistic thinking is the belief that science can tell us everything

about our world, coupled with the belief that anyone who disagrees is

mentally deficient. I uncouple myself from scientistic thinking, because I

know that our bodies contain mysteries that are not yet, and may never be,

unravelled.

--

At 11:43 PM 6/16/2010, you wrote:

>The science Zagon is doing is really not disputable - looking at these

>cells at the molecular level is as deep as we humans can look into our

>biology at present. Immuno-deficiency diseases are not in the same class

>as auto-immune diseases - two different dysfunctions.

>

><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_system#Hypersensitivity>http://en.wikipedi\

a.org/wiki/Immune_system#Hypersensitivity

>

>Disorders in the immune system can result in disease.

><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunodeficiency>Immunodeficiency occurs

>when the immune system is less active than normal, resulting in recurring

>and life-threatening infections. Immunodeficiency can either be the result

>of a <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_disease>genetic disease, such

>as <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_combined_immunodeficiency>severe

>combined immunodeficiency, or be produced by pharmaceuticals or an

>infection, such as the <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS>acquired immune

>deficiency syndrome (AIDS) that is caused by the

><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrovirus>retrovirus

><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV>HIV. In contrast,

><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoimmunity>autoimmune diseases result from

>a hyperactive immune system attacking normal tissues as if they were

>foreign organisms. Common autoimmune diseases include

><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashimoto%27s_thyroiditis>Hashimoto's

>thyroiditis, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheumatoid_arthritis>rheumatoid

>arthritis, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes_mellitus_type_1>diabetes

>mellitus type 1, and

><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupus_erythematosus>lupus erythematosus.

><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunology>Immunology covers the study of

>all aspects of the immune system, having significant relevance to

><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health>health and diseases. Further

>investigation in this field is expected to play a serious role in

>promotion of health and treatment of diseases.

>

>

>

>From: Baker <vbaker@...>

>Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: FW: Dosing of LDN twice a day at 4.5mg

>low dose naltrexone

>Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 10:12 PM

>

>

> > Now, use your head - would you want more immune response if you

> > > have MS or arthritis or lupus. No. This would make autoimmune diseases

> > > worse. If I did not do so earlier, I will attach 2 papers on MS.

> > > Dr. Zagon

>

>I'm sorry, but this viewpoint on autoimmune diseases is outmoded. It is now

>well known among cutting edge researchers, nutritional therapists,

>naturopaths, and integrative physicians that autoimmune diseases are the

>result of too little immune activity, not too much.

>

>Probably the old view of such diseases is why there has been so little

>progress in treating them. But stimulation of the immune system,

>strengthening of the immune system, increases health and decreases debility

>from such diseases.

>

>I also agree with Art's and Cris's comments.

>

>--

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

Yes, that's what it looks like to conventional Western medicine. But the

answer for ultimate healing lies in strengthening the immune system. It's

attacking the body because of weakness, not strength.

--

At 11:10 AM 6/17/2010, you wrote:

>MMmmm I have to disagree .. I have MS complicated by Hashimotos. This

>seems to be common for others on this forum. My immune system was in

>overdrive attacking my body. This was confirmed by testing and being put

>on prednisone to knock out my immune system. I am a currently in

>remission for my MS, per my doc. However I am still fighting the battle

>with Hashimotos. Every person with immune problems has different levels

>of medical issues. Mari

>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

>

> Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: FW: Dosing of LDN twice a day at

> 4.5mg

>

>

> > Now, use your head - would you want more immune response if you

> > > have MS or arthritis or lupus. No. This would make autoimmune diseases

> > > worse. If I did not do so earlier, I will attach 2 papers on MS.

> > > Dr. Zagon

>

>I'm sorry, but this viewpoint on autoimmune diseases is outmoded. It is now

>well known among cutting edge researchers, nutritional therapists,

>naturopaths, and integrative physicians that autoimmune diseases are the

>result of too little immune activity, not too much.

>

>Probably the old view of such diseases is why there has been so little

>progress in treating them. But stimulation of the immune system,

>strengthening of the immune system, increases health and decreases debility

>from such diseases.

>

>I also agree with Art's and Cris's comments.

>

>--

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

LDN is a conventional Western medicine. So I guess how it works would not apply to your experience, yet the way it works for me appears consistent with what Zagon's research explains.I'll just wait for more research to uncover more details. It's very exciting.“The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth.†Neils

BohrJackie>MMmmm I have to disagree .. I have MS complicated by Hashimotos. This >seems to be common for others on this forum. My immune system was in

>overdrive attacking my body. This was confirmed by testing and being put >on prednisone to knock out my immune system. I am a currently in >remission for my MS, per my doc. However I am still fighting the battle >with Hashimotos. Every person with immune problems has different levels >of medical issues. Mari>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry>> Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: FW: Dosing of LDN twice a day at> 4.5mg>>> > Now, use your head

- would you want more immune response if you> > > have MS or arthritis or lupus. No. This would make autoimmune diseases> > > worse. If I did not do so earlier, I will attach 2 papers on MS.> > > Dr. Zagon>>I'm sorry, but this viewpoint on autoimmune diseases is outmoded. It is now>well known among cutting edge researchers, nutritional therapists,>naturopaths, and integrative physicians that autoimmune diseases are the>result of too little immune activity, not too much.>>Probably the old view of such diseases is why there has been so little>progress in treating them. But stimulation of the immune system,>strengthening of the immune system, increases health and decreases debility>from such diseases.>>I also agree with Art's and Cris's

comments.>>--~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I find Dr Zagon's information extremely interesting, and expect much of it will

prove to be exactly what is happening with LDN.

I would like to make a point though that in MS, Lupus or in RA; you might want

an EFFECTIVE inflammation to clear an infectious cause of these disease(s). The

problem is that in these disease processes the typical inflammation is not

functionally effective in clearing the purported pathogens. If LDN can modulate

the patient's immune system to not have such an ineffective immune response by

being immuno-suppressive, then that can be a valuable tool to reduce an

inappropriate inflammatory process, as has been repeatedly shown. That LDN does

not totally disable the immune response seems pretty clear, or people on LDN

would be getting acute infections much more often than they do. That is why I

would tend to use the term immuno-modulatory to describe the actions of LDN. I

do not feel that LDN precludes clearance of chronic infections by permitting the

enabling the innate immune response through activation of the Vitamin D receptor

to transcribe antimicrobial peptides. We at Chronic Illness Recovery use a

non-calcigenic vitamin D analog to do just this, and so far have seen signs that

it can be compatible with the use of LDN even if LDN down-regulates certain

immune cells subsets. Interestingly Vitamin D analogs can be both

immuno-suppressive and immune stimulating at the same time by different

biochemical mechanisms. One can not totally rule out that even LDN itself might

have more that one mechanism of action that affects physiologic responses,

given the tremendous complexity of biochemical systems. Many believe that strong

pain itself can be immuno-suppressive, so a reduction in pain may still have a

net positive effect even if some opioids (even endogenous) do contribute to

immuno-suppression by reducing numbers of some immune cell sets.

Pain, the Immune System, and Opioimmunotoxicity

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cog/ria/2004/00000008/00000001/art00001

Pain management: is opioid immunosuppression a clinical problem?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL & _udi=B6VKN-4K9C2S8-2 & _user=1\

0 & _coverDate=08%2F31%2F2006 & _rdoc=1 & _fmt=high & _orig=search & _sort=d & _docanchor= & v\

iew=c & _acct=C000050221 & _version=1 & _urlVersion=0 & _userid=10 & md5=ef34f6f07f7624c14\

866ce9b60346dd9

In my opinion, if needed one would want to choose an opioid that is the least

immuno-suppressive in most cases if possible, and studying the endogenous

opioids produced by LDN's intermittent blockade is key information.

In any case, in my experience LDN sure beats long term steroids, or drugs like

Enbrel or Remicade in most applications, and is still usually preferable to

exogenous opiates when it is possible to use it in their place.

best, P.B.

>

> Further to my earlier email from Dr Zagon, I questioned LDN being an immuno

> suppressant - please see his response below and articles attached.

>

>

[Guest guest]

which opioids are non-immunosuppressing?~EileenOn Jun 21, 2010, at 1:22 AM, ursus357 wrote:

In my opinion, if needed one would want to choose an opioid that is the least immuno-suppressive in most cases if possible, and studying the endogenous opioids produced by LDN's intermittent blockade is key information.

In any case, in my experience LDN sure beats long term steroids, or drugs like Enbrel or Remicade in most applications, and is still usually preferable to exogenous opiates when it is possible to use it in their place.

[Guest guest]

Eileen,I am not absolutely certain about this but so far I think the only endogenous opioid peptide that has been directly observed to have immunosuppressive characteristics is methionine enkephalin also known as OGF or opioid growth factor in a role other than as a neurotransmitter.There may be others that have been observed that I don't know about, or that have not yet been discovered to have this effect.Jackie

In my opinion, if needed one would want to choose an opioid that is the least immuno-suppressive in most cases if possible, and studying the endogenous opioids produced by LDN's intermittent blockade is key information.

In any case, in my experience LDN sure beats long term steroids, or drugs like Enbrel or Remicade in most applications, and is still usually preferable to exogenous opiates when it is possible to use it in their place.