Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 , Great piece. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, and I am a baseball person :-) I'm a newbie to ALL of this. But the one thing I don't get is why does it always have to be one way or the other. I'm very confused about the proper treatment of Lyme for me so I'm seeing an LLMD and a Naturopathic doctor. I'm the guy who had two horse back lessions, but I know I don't know enough and I'm not going to start guessing when it comes to something this serious. I'll let the experts guide me and do my own independant research to make sure I understand their treatments. I'm a true believer that we are all different and the one thing I think we can all agree on is that we are all in a tough battle against Lyme disease. I have heard great success stories from people that have been treated with conventional abx treatments as well as Wholistic/Complementry treatments. So what that says to me is that there are different ways to recover! The most important lesson I have learned as a Newbie to Lyme is that this is very serious and we must take control of our treatments in order to recover! I don't see why it must be an either or choice, I know some people have had problems with abx and others have succeeded with abx and with wholistic treatments. I propose a logical approach that starts out with the most experienced LLMD treating the Lyme and working with a trained Lyme professional (Naturopathic, Homeopathic, Alternative, Complementry) to provide the best advice on which supplements are best. Keeping to a prescrived treatment regiment for 4-6 months and adapting as necessary. We all need to listen to our bodies and adapt the treatment as we see fit! The LLMD and or other Lyme professionals aren't in charge of our health, we are. I can't say which is right or wrong, but I do know that most reputable LLMD's have seen thousands of Lyme patients and have vast amount of experience in treating Lyme. Comparitively we are all the horsemen that have taken a lession or two! That doesn't make the LLMD's right all of the time, but it does give them the experience that we lack. This is most important for us NEWBIE's that have little or no experience with this terrible disease. We need to let the experts guide us and we must take control of our total treatment. Thanks for such a provacative post! Be well, > > When talking about wholistic medicine, what that means to one person can > mean something different to another, it reminds me of a term we have in > the horse world called " Natural HOrsemanship " . I have been around horses > all my life and trained for the past 16 years so analogies are a way of > life for me in my teaching. You can train a horse thru natural means > (love,leadership,trust, respect) or mechanical means > (force,fear,whips,spurs). The end result to a novice horse owner will > sometimes look the same. But to an experienced horse person there is no > comparison riding a horse who has been trained with force and fear, vs. > one who has been shown only love, respect and always worked with it's > nautral way of thinking. I have many times met people who had taken a > lesson or two and then thought that they were doing natural > horsemanship, and also telling others about it and teaching them. Again > to a trained professional it was obvious there was still much to be > learned, and along the way people who are viewing these untrained > people, get a negative views of " Natural Horsemanship " , and they think > it is studpid and does not work, because mechanical means have been > accepted as the norm for a long time. When it comes to the world of > health and sickness, we also hear terms like alternative, wholistic, > natural, but what does it really mean. I think it is important to know > that the body has several systems that need to be fully operational in > order to have good health. Some examples of these systems are, > endorcine,metabolic, nervous,digestive,cellular,skelatal,circulatory, > respitory, and some more I have probably forgotten. All of these > systems can fail due to poor diet,stress, toxins, viruses, bacteria, > which then can cause long term disease. To me when we talk about > wholistic or natuaral, it is working with the body to assist it's most > basic functions and support all the systems. MOst people will take some > vitamins and minerals and think they have tried wholistic measures and > they don't work. This is because they have only addressed one small part > of the bodies needs. I have been a professional coach for a long time, > now I have switched from horses to health, and in coaching people with > diet and lifestyle changes here is what I find. They go to the health > food store and pick up a few things that their friend told them about > and then try for a month or 2, they they try something else, that > another friend said worked for them, and so on and so on and soon they > have a whole cupboard full of vitamins, minerals, herbs, etc. SOme > people do work with professionals but the majority of people will rely > on info from friends or the health store clerk. They end up with a > health plan that I call " swiss cheese " because it is full of holes, or > for you baseball fans, 3 people on first, nobody on 2nd or 3rd, puny guy > in the outfield and the guy at home is asleep. When asked whether or not > their program works they will say not really. The other problem is that > inorder to support all these systems, is a lifestyle approach, not a > drug for 7 day approach. Most people just do not stick it out with any > of these natural means. Just like the horse thing, I have taken lessons > and clinics, and worked with professionals my whole life, I am 49. I > feel like I am a novice in so many ways still today when I get around > the true great horseman. Now with health, I have studied alternative > (which I hate that word, should be complimentary) medicine for about 5 > years. I know very little compared to the great natureopaths and other > wholistics type doctors. I do however know more then the guy who just > took 2 lessons, and or watched someone else do it. In healing my own > body it took 8 months of daily supplementation, and good diet choices. > There is also the spirtiual and mental side that has to be addressed > also. I continue in my daily regimen and will never quit. This is a > lifestyle choice. If you see me walking side by side with someone who > has chosen drugs and surgery for a life time, at first you might not > notice too much difference. But when digging alittle deeper in the > person with the drug background, you will find fear, anger, frustration, > scarred bodies, missing parts, and cupborad full of toxic drugs that > gives them the allusion of health. I understand the need to take drugs > and am not against them for temporary measures in helping the body get > over a hump. I also believe the reason so many have different symptoms > with these autoimmune type diseases is the overall state of their body > and these systems. That is also the reason it is so very hard for your > doctor to figure out what is wrong with you, because many systems can > fail at once, but when it does, it is not craving a drug, it is looking > for food, the very thing that was put on this earth inorder to sustain > us. A full optimal health plan would have vitamins, mineral, > antioxidants, hormone balancing, 8 essential plant sugars, diegestive > enzyme and or probiotic,omega's and herbals when necessary to support a > specific system. If you think you have tried " wholistic " and have not > supported all these systems, then you really have not given it a fair > shot. My hope for all of you is to be well and happy and however you > will accomplish that is your choice. But health must be the end result, > if not then perhaps there is a better way for you. > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.0 - Release Date: 3/2/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 , Great post! Wonderful metaphor regarding the two different types of horse training, and healing the body. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 do you mean that you can kill lyme disease wholisticly,because that is what Im trying to get at,i dont think you can put lyme into remission without addressing the bacterial load and that takes an antibiotic. nurturing the body is done when strengthing the immune system is needed and i believe that is after antibiotics. --- " Kindscher (Charter) " <morningsunranch@...> wrote: > > When talking about wholistic medicine, what that > means to one person can > mean something different to another, it reminds me > of a term we have in > the horse world called " Natural HOrsemanship " . I > have been around horses > all my life and trained for the past 16 years so > analogies are a way of > life for me in my teaching. You can train a horse > thru natural means > (love,leadership,trust, respect) or mechanical means > > (force,fear,whips,spurs). The end result to a novice > horse owner will > sometimes look the same. But to an experienced horse > person there is no > comparison riding a horse who has been trained with > force and fear, vs. > one who has been shown only love, respect and always > worked with it's > nautral way of thinking. I have many times met > people who had taken a > lesson or two and then thought that they were doing > natural > horsemanship, and also telling others about it and > teaching them. Again > to a trained professional it was obvious there was > still much to be > learned, and along the way people who are viewing > these untrained > people, get a negative views of " Natural > Horsemanship " , and they think > it is studpid and does not work, because mechanical > means have been > accepted as the norm for a long time. When it comes > to the world of > health and sickness, we also hear terms like > alternative, wholistic, > natural, but what does it really mean. I think it is > important to know > that the body has several systems that need to be > fully operational in > order to have good health. Some examples of these > systems are, > endorcine,metabolic, > nervous,digestive,cellular,skelatal,circulatory, > respitory, and some more I have probably forgotten. > All of these > systems can fail due to poor diet,stress, toxins, > viruses, bacteria, > which then can cause long term disease. To me when > we talk about > wholistic or natuaral, it is working with the body > to assist it's most > basic functions and support all the systems. MOst > people will take some > vitamins and minerals and think they have tried > wholistic measures and > they don't work. This is because they have only > addressed one small part > of the bodies needs. I have been a professional > coach for a long time, > now I have switched from horses to health, and in > coaching people with > diet and lifestyle changes here is what I find. They > go to the health > food store and pick up a few things that their > friend told them about > and then try for a month or 2, they they try > something else, that > another friend said worked for them, and so on and > so on and soon they > have a whole cupboard full of vitamins, minerals, > herbs, etc. SOme > people do work with professionals but the majority > of people will rely > on info from friends or the health store clerk. They > end up with a > health plan that I call " swiss cheese " because it is > full of holes, or > for you baseball fans, 3 people on first, nobody on > 2nd or 3rd, puny guy > in the outfield and the guy at home is asleep. When > asked whether or not > their program works they will say not really. The > other problem is that > inorder to support all these systems, is a lifestyle > approach, not a > drug for 7 day approach. Most people just do not > stick it out with any > of these natural means. Just like the horse thing, I > have taken lessons > and clinics, and worked with professionals my whole > life, I am 49. I > feel like I am a novice in so many ways still today > when I get around > the true great horseman. Now with health, I have > studied alternative > (which I hate that word, should be complimentary) > medicine for about 5 > years. I know very little compared to the great > natureopaths and other > wholistics type doctors. I do however know more then > the guy who just > took 2 lessons, and or watched someone else do it. > In healing my own > body it took 8 months of daily supplementation, and > good diet choices. > There is also the spirtiual and mental side that has > to be addressed > also. I continue in my daily regimen and will never > quit. This is a > lifestyle choice. If you see me walking side by > side with someone who > has chosen drugs and surgery for a life time, at > first you might not > notice too much difference. But when digging alittle > deeper in the > person with the drug background, you will find fear, > anger, frustration, > scarred bodies, missing parts, and cupborad full of > toxic drugs that > gives them the allusion of health. I understand the > need to take drugs > and am not against them for temporary measures in > helping the body get > over a hump. I also believe the reason so many have > different symptoms > with these autoimmune type diseases is the overall > state of their body > and these systems. That is also the reason it is so > very hard for your > doctor to figure out what is wrong with you, because > many systems can > fail at once, but when it does, it is not craving a > drug, it is looking > for food, the very thing that was put on this earth > inorder to sustain > us. A full optimal health plan would have vitamins, > mineral, > antioxidants, hormone balancing, 8 essential plant > sugars, diegestive > enzyme and or probiotic,omega's and herbals when > necessary to support a > specific system. If you think you have tried > " wholistic " and have not > supported all these systems, then you really have > not given it a fair > shot. My hope for all of you is to be well and happy > and however you > will accomplish that is your choice. But health must > be the end result, > if not then perhaps there is a better way for you. > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.0 - Release > Date: 3/2/2005 > > > > > __________________________________ Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday./netrospective/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 if a natural product is used it most kill the bacteria and proven to work against this strain af bacteria in the lab. we dont want to russian roulette,if it is not killed or knocked down it may be a problem once it does emerge when the host immunne system is compromised.then you wont know is it the lyme or because im stressed. eric --- " Kindscher (Charter) " <morningsunranch@...> wrote: > > , > > I think it is o.k. if you do not believe that > supplements of any kind > cannot kill bacteria. I chose to believe they can > because I have seen it > happen. The product I take will kill 95% of candida > in 24 hours. If a > lyme patient has a major herx after taking a natural > product and then > slowly starts to recover and feel well for the first > time in a long time > what would you think, that its time to go back to > the doctor. When an > aids patient is suppose to die from severe > pneumonia, and then has any > amazing turnaround in a short period of time after > mega dosing a natural > product, what would you think, if someone is > fighting a staff infection > and is going to lose his leg and then has an amazing > recovery, again > after a large dose of a natural product, what would > you think . I > know what I think, and what I would do facing any of > those > circumstances. I understand what you have gone thru > and what you are > going thru, I was sick for 5 years,as well as my > husband, but now Iwe > are well, not because of any drugs. I don't know > what else to say. There > is lots of new technology out their, neutraceutical, > and > glyconutritionals have and will continue to help > alot of people. Again, > I wish you good and no more suffering, as no one > should have to live in > pain. GIna > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.0 - Release > Date: 3/2/2005 > > > > > __________________________________ Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday./netrospective/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 <<<if a natural product is used it must kill the bacteria and proven to work against this strain af bacteria in the lab. we don't want to russian roulette>>> Russian roulette is what we are playing.......why do you think so many people are trying different types of treatment. Why do you think that there isn't a set protocol to follow in treating this disease? Get a natural product tested to make sure it will kill the bacteria? Are you kidding? They haven't found a completely successful treatment in traditional medicine that will help everyone.... There are many different strains of the lyme bacteria, and researchers are not sitting down and trying to figure out in a lab which abx will kill which strain. (too expensive?) Hence they are playing Russian Roulette.......it is very hit or miss. That is why many things are tried over long periods of time......some are successful and some are not..some of us are lucky and some of us are not. Connieknwnj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 is there a natural antibiotic? eric --- ConnieK <connieknwnj@...> wrote: > <<<if a natural product is used it must kill the > bacteria and proven to work against this strain af > bacteria in the lab. we don't want to russian > roulette>>> > > Russian roulette is what we are playing.......why do > you think so many people are trying different types > of treatment. Why do you think that there isn't a > set protocol to follow in treating this disease? Get > a natural product tested to make sure it will kill > the bacteria? Are you kidding? They haven't found > a completely successful treatment in traditional > medicine that will help everyone.... > > There are many different strains of the lyme > bacteria, and researchers are not sitting down and > trying to figure out in a lab which abx will kill > which strain. (too expensive?) > > Hence they are playing Russian Roulette.......it is > very hit or miss. That is why many things are tried > over long periods of time......some are successful > and some are not..some of us are lucky and some of > us are not. > > Connieknwnj > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________ Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday./netrospective/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 I totally agree if lymes presents itself differently in everyone what makes MDs thinkk that it can all be treated with the same drug I think different approaches to get rid of the disease needs to be taken and longer term therapy needs to be approved by the insurance companies Maybe that could be a start along with the wholistic thing whatever works for the individual > << <if a natural product is used it must kill the bacteria and proven to work against this strain af bacteria in the lab. we don't want to russian roulette>>> > > Russian roulette is what we are playing.......why do you think so many people are trying different types of treatment. Why do you think that there isn't a set protocol to follow in treating this disease? Get a natural product tested to make sure it will kill the bacteria? Are you kidding? They haven't found a completely successful treatment in traditional medicine that will help everyone.... > > There are many different strains of the lyme bacteria, and researchers are not sitting down and trying to figure out in a lab which abx will kill which strain. (too expensive?) > > Hence they are playing Russian Roulette.......it is very hit or miss. That is why many things are tried over long periods of time......some are successful and some are not..some of us are lucky and some of us are not. > > Connieknwnj > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 <<<is there a natural antibiotic?>>> I believe there are a few. Garlic and Olive leaf extract top the list....followed by Colloidal Silver, Propolis, and Oregano......you'll have to ask the experts that are on the list for the other Natural abx. Conniek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 In a message dated 3/5/05 5:09:48 PM, connieknwnj@... writes: ><is there a natural antibiotic Yes, there is a natural antibiotic. Chinese Golden Seal Root. Also the Calli tea kills off the free radicals in the body so, to me that acts like an antibiotic. Whenever I feel a cold coming on, I flood my system with the Calli tea (one bag to four to six cups of almost boiling water, steeped for 5-10 minutes). It clears out the brain fog, energizes me and gets rid of my cold. That in conjunction with the Chinese golden Seal Root capsules does the trick, and sometimes the Calli without them does the trick as well. Sue Sue Rauch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Samento is a natural antibiotic. It does kill the lyme, it appears. There are quite a few scientific studies on the Samento site. I don't know that they would ever make it into the New England Journal of Medicine, but then again the NEJM says that extended antibiotic use in late lyme offers the same cure rate as placebo. NEJM hasn't got much to offer on the subject that is of any practical value. My Group Health doc (ex) used the article to tell me she wouldn't treat me with extended antibiotics. Cactus Anyway, I am doing FINE with my other protocols from my lyme MD, so her using the NEJM to brush me off was a blessing in disquise. Cactus > > <<<if a natural product is used it must kill the > > bacteria and proven to work against this strain af > > bacteria in the lab. we don't want to russian > > roulette>>> > > > > Russian roulette is what we are playing.......why do > > you think so many people are trying different types > > of treatment. Why do you think that there isn't a > > set protocol to follow in treating this disease? Get > > a natural product tested to make sure it will kill > > the bacteria? Are you kidding? They haven't found > > a completely successful treatment in traditional > > medicine that will help everyone.... > > > > There are many different strains of the lyme > > bacteria, and researchers are not sitting down and > > trying to figure out in a lab which abx will kill > > which strain. (too expensive?) > > > > Hence they are playing Russian Roulette.......it is > > very hit or miss. That is why many things are tried > > over long periods of time......some are successful > > and some are not..some of us are lucky and some of > > us are not. > > > > Connieknwnj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! > Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > http://birthday./netrospective/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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