Re: disappointed about having to use Prednisone for kidney deterioration

[Guest guest]

You actually can use more than 10mgs of pred with LDN - Dr Zagon says to say otherwise is an urban myth, here is part of his mail to me - It would be good if we could clear things up on this once and for all.......

Celia

Dear Celia: Prednisone is an anti-inflammatory agent. What you are saying is that these folks on the web believe the nonsense that LDN is a stimulator of immunity, and that prednisone would counteract this. Well, now the news. LDN - like OGF - is an anti- inflammatory agent as well!! Yes, all of these rumors by non- scientists - and some poor science - are in error. LDN works as an anti-inflammatory as well, and the mechanism is targeting the cyclin-dependent inhibitory kinase pathway of the cell cycle - specifically p16 and p21 - those are the very details you may want. An increase in p16/p21 depresses the G1/S interface of the cell cycle, causing cells to slow down in cell replication, with the net result of suppressing the immune system. So, LDN - like OGF - diminish cell proliferation - and these include cells of the immune system (e.g., T cells, B cells). In fact, we are coming out with a series of papers showing how this entire show is working because of the confusion on the part of some erroneous experiments leading to the wrong conclusion. As always, there are rumors and anecdotal information - and the web is filled with it - and then there is science. You are putting far to much confidence on the web. Anyone can say anything - that is why I never bother reading this.>> Dr. Zagon

[Guest guest]

I got he first 5 sentences in the first paragraph, but could you clarify

the

rest in that paragraph.

Thanks.

Celia wrote:

> You actually can use more than 10mgs of pred with LDN - Dr Zagon says

> to say otherwise is an urban myth, here is part of his mail to me - It

> would be good if we could clear things up on this once and for all.......

> Celia

>

> Dear Celia:

>

> Prednisone is an anti-inflammatory agent. What you are

> saying is that these folks on the web believe the nonsense that

> LDN is a stimulator of immunity, and that prednisone would

> counteract this. Well, now the news. LDN - like OGF - is an anti-

> inflammatory agent as well!! Yes, all of these rumors by non-

> scientists - and some poor science - are in error. LDN works as an

> anti-inflammatory as well, and the mechanism is targeting the

> cyclin-dependent inhibitory kinase pathway of the cell cycle -

> specifically p16 and p21 - those are the very details you may

> want. An increase in p16/p21 depresses the G1/S interface of the

> cell cycle, causing cells to slow down in cell replication, with

> the net result of suppressing the immune system. So, LDN - like

> OGF - diminish cell proliferation - and these include cells of the

> immune system (e.g., T cells, B cells). In fact, we are coming

> out with a series of papers showing how this entire show is

> working because of the confusion on the part of some erroneous

> experiments leading to the wrong conclusion.

> As always, there are rumors and anecdotal information

> - and the web is filled with it - and then there is science. You

> are putting far to much confidence on the web. Anyone can say

> anything - that is why I never bother reading this.

> >> Dr. Zagon

>

>

[Guest guest]

It seems that Dr. Zagon disagrees with much that is written in

www.low dose naltrexone.org website owned by the Gluck's. Dosage amounts, time to

take it, how often, etc. Everything being taught about LDN is an urban myth

according to the reseacher. If the website and what's being passed around the

internet is so wrong why hasn't Dr. Zagon taken the time to read the site and

emailed the Gluck's with his corrections so he too can help people get better? I

don't want to read he doesn't have time because he seems to have plenty of time

answering private emails filled with serious questions from total strangers. I

have heard there is a professional jealousy invloving he and Dr. Bhari. I really

hope that is not true. The one time I emailed him with a question and comment I

found his reply curt and defensive.

Art

---

>

> You actually can use more than 10mgs of pred with LDN - Dr Zagon says to say

otherwise is an urban myth, here is part of his mail to me - It would be good if

we could clear things up on this once and for all.......

> Celia

>

[Guest guest]

imho. Here we go AGAIN. The he said she said argument. This is what I say, give it a break. We would be no place without Zagon or Bihari or Lawrence, these were the early guys. Likewise we wouldn't be anyplace without Dr. Tom, or Boyle, or Sullivan or . Each one has provided unique advice and input to this whole process. Sometimes the clinicans will have the answer and sometimes the scientist will have the answer and sometimes even boneheads like me have the answer. We are all coming from a different perspective, each valid and correct in the context we practice in.

I too feel that except for some noted exceptions that the internet has done more to hurt the use of LDN, as it has help it. I tell people that the internet is not peer reviewed, so you gets what you gets. As for personal communicatino with these guys, well its funny how an "expert" is quoted and it is all out of context, or even the quoter is full of equine fecal material. I'll wait for the paper.

I believe that Zagon does has a innovative perspective on the drug. I know that I have been on the immune-modulator side of the argument. for a while now and everything I see seems to be leading me in the correct direction. As for Dr. Lawrences approach with pred, he sees it from a clinical perspective. He takes a history, prescribes something and waits for effect. Much different from proposing an hypothesis, testing that hypothesis and coming up with an answer. Can both of them be right, sure, they are both making observations, subjective and objective. Dr. Lawrence found that his patients who were not prednisone naive responded less than pred naive patients. Okay what does that mean? I don't know, maybe Zagon and Lawrence could get together and work it out. Maybe its the time lag, paptient population, drugs used, etc, etc.

So everybody is wonderful and lets continue a proper scientific conversation. I disagree with Dr. Zagon, regarding the insight that the individuals provide on the internet.

Dr.Skip

[Guest guest]

Here is an interesting report that seems relevant to this issue:

" K. is an 82-year-old woman who, over a period of three months, developed

blisters on her ankles, the soles of her feet, her arms and her neck, which on

biopsy proved to be pemphigoid. She was referred to a dermatologist specializing

in this disease who treated her with prednisone 40 mg/day, which slowed disease

progression but did not clear her blisters. When LDN was added by Dr. Bihari,

her blisters cleared and slowly healed over a 6-week period, during which time

she slowly tapered her prednisone. On her last visit, she was on both LDN each

night and prednisone 5mg every other day with no exacerbation. "

Source:

http://www.low dose naltrexone.org/ldn_and_ai.htm

If it were true that the immmunosuppressive effect of prednisone blocks the

action of LDN and prevents it from working, then Dr. Bihari's treatment of that

lady with pemphigoid should not have worked. But it did. It looks like Dr. Zagon

may be right about this.

Phil

>

> You actually can use more than 10mgs of pred with LDN - Dr Zagon says

> to say otherwise is an urban myth, here is part of his mail to me - It

> would be good if we could clear things up on this once and for all.......

> Celia

>

>

>> Dear Celia:

>>

>> Prednisone is an anti-inflammatory agent. What you are

>> saying is that these folks on the web believe the nonsense that

>> LDN is a stimulator of immunity, and that prednisone would

>> counteract this. Well, now the news. LDN - like OGF - is an anti-

>> inflammatory agent as well!! Yes, all of these rumors by non-

>> scientists - and some poor science - are in error. LDN works as an

>> anti-inflammatory as well, and the mechanism is targeting the

>> cyclin-dependent inhibitory kinase pathway of the cell cycle -

>> specifically p16 and p21 - those are the very details you may

>> want. An increase in p16/p21 depresses the G1/S interface of the

>> cell cycle, causing cells to slow down in cell replication, with

>> the net result of suppressing the immune system. So, LDN - like

>> OGF - diminish cell proliferation - and these include cells of the

>> immune system (e.g., T cells, B cells). In fact, we are coming

>> out with a series of papers showing how this entire show is

>> working because of the confusion on the part of some erroneous

>> experiments leading to the wrong conclusion.

>> As always, there are rumors and anecdotal information

>> - and the web is filled with it - and then there is science. You

>> are putting far to much confidence on the web. Anyone can say

>> anything - that is why I never bother reading this.

>> Dr. Zagon

>>