Would the Paleo Diet do good with LDN?

[Guest guest]

for the tingling check your B-12

[Guest guest]

>

> Hello...has anyone even tried it? I have been on LDN now for five

> months on 3 mg...for MS and following for the most part a no sugar,

> no meat or dairy diet...no wheat. I have had very good results for

> the most part...I have gotten a few new symptoms that are most

> likely MS related that are super mild, which I am sure if I wasn't

> on LDN, would have been alot more severe. (Very slight dizziness

> and very slight tingling in my hands, most likely because my MS is

> what I think they call TM?) Thank God for LDN. But...I want to

> ensure no new symptoms ever...which diet would be best?

There exists some body of data suggesting that a diet that restricts

carbohydrates may benefit MS- mainly a very scarce book by Dr. Wolfgang Lutz

called " Dismantling a myth: the role of fat and carbohydrates in our diet. " He

generally suggests a diet of <72 grams/day of carbohydrates- when most Americans

consume at least 4 times that- and reported among several of his patients with

MS that sometimes they had to drop below that to see good results. I would

recommend combining his diet with the " no grains " approach of the " Paleo " diet.

The only modifications I would make from the Paleo diet would be:

a) Fermented milk (in the fashion of Gottschall, from " Breaking the Vicious

Cycle " - stay away from bifidobacteria)

Go easy on the nuts. Almonds and pecans are best. Peanuts and cashews seem to

enhance inflammation in particular. Macadamias may be okay as well.

My personal angle on MS is that while there may be several " flavors " of disease,

the preponderance of cases are possibly caused by an organism called Chlamydia

pneumoniae. While the commonly-known chlamydia (Chlamydia trachomatis) is a

sexually transmitted disease, the organism C. pneumoniae is a lung infection. If

for some reason the organism makes its way into parts of the body it shouldn't,

there's this long-term issue with getting rid of it.

From this, I believe there are several components by which one may overcome the

infection:

1) Heal the gut. A low-carb diet can get rid of undesirable gut flora, allowing

the intestinal mucosa to heal. Once that happens, undesirable proteins that used

to cross the (damaged) gut will stop getting into the circulatory system. For

this, the <72 grams/day recommended by Lutz is a good starting place. Similarly,

up the consumption of fats- provided carbs are kept low, this is actually

healthier than what the American Heart Association recommends (i.e., low-fat,

high carb). Eat coconut oil (1-3 tablespoons/day).

2) Supplement with vitamin D (5,000 IU/day for several weeks, dropping back to

2,000 to 3,000 IU/day for maintenance). Supplement with fish oil (5 mL/day). Add

a zinc supplement and a selenium supplement (50-100 mg of zinc, 100 mcg of

selenium). Naltrexone as prescribed.

3) Yoga. Exercise will do you good on many levels: stress; physical

conditioning; muscle use; and balance/coordination.

If these do not stem the disease:

4) Minocycline as part of an antibiotic cocktail:

http://www.davidwheldon.co.uk/ms-treatment1.html

Read 's pages with great care. I sincerely believe he's onto something.

Failing that, the recommendations get weirder and more desperate: helminth

therapy (colonization of the gut with small numbers of worms), stem cell

therapies available outside the United States, etc. But, frankly,

recommendations 1 through 4 may be capable of arresting the progress of multiple

sclerosis for most people without having to use the expensive (and largely

ineffective) drugs commonly prescribed for multiple sclerosis.

[Guest guest]

There is more evidence for this, and the great offender is gluten:http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2009/06/gluten-coeliac-and-multiple-sclerosis.html

2010/2/14 ahicks51 <osp001@...>

 

There exists some body of data suggesting that a diet that restricts carbohydrates may benefit MS- mainly a very scarce book by Dr. Wolfgang Lutz called " Dismantling a myth: the role of fat and carbohydrates in our diet. " He generally suggests a diet of <72 grams/day of carbohydrates- when most Americans consume at least 4 times that- and reported among several of his patients with MS that sometimes they had to drop below that to see good results. I would recommend combining his diet with the " no grains " approach of the " Paleo " diet. The only modifications I would make from the Paleo diet would be:

[Guest guest]

Ahicks,

Do you have MS, has this approach worked for you?

> >

> > Hello...has anyone even tried it? I have been on LDN now for five

> > months on 3 mg...for MS and following for the most part a no sugar,

> > no meat or dairy diet...no wheat. I have had very good results for

> > the most part...I have gotten a few new symptoms that are most

> > likely MS related that are super mild, which I am sure if I wasn't

> > on LDN, would have been alot more severe. (Very slight dizziness

> > and very slight tingling in my hands, most likely because my MS is

> > what I think they call TM?) Thank God for LDN. But...I want to

> > ensure no new symptoms ever...which diet would be best?

>

> There exists some body of data suggesting that a diet that restricts

carbohydrates may benefit MS- mainly a very scarce book by Dr. Wolfgang Lutz

called " Dismantling a myth: the role of fat and carbohydrates in our diet. " He

generally suggests a diet of <72 grams/day of carbohydrates- when most Americans

consume at least 4 times that- and reported among several of his patients with

MS that sometimes they had to drop below that to see good results. I would

recommend combining his diet with the " no grains " approach of the " Paleo " diet.

The only modifications I would make from the Paleo diet would be:

>

> a) Fermented milk (in the fashion of Gottschall, from " Breaking the Vicious

Cycle " - stay away from bifidobacteria)

> Go easy on the nuts. Almonds and pecans are best. Peanuts and cashews seem

to enhance inflammation in particular. Macadamias may be okay as well.

>

> My personal angle on MS is that while there may be several " flavors " of

disease, the preponderance of cases are possibly caused by an organism called

Chlamydia pneumoniae. While the commonly-known chlamydia (Chlamydia trachomatis)

is a sexually transmitted disease, the organism C. pneumoniae is a lung

infection. If for some reason the organism makes its way into parts of the body

it shouldn't, there's this long-term issue with getting rid of it.

>

> From this, I believe there are several components by which one may overcome

the infection:

>

> 1) Heal the gut. A low-carb diet can get rid of undesirable gut flora,

allowing the intestinal mucosa to heal. Once that happens, undesirable proteins

that used to cross the (damaged) gut will stop getting into the circulatory

system. For this, the <72 grams/day recommended by Lutz is a good starting

place. Similarly, up the consumption of fats- provided carbs are kept low, this

is actually healthier than what the American Heart Association recommends (i.e.,

low-fat, high carb). Eat coconut oil (1-3 tablespoons/day).

>

> 2) Supplement with vitamin D (5,000 IU/day for several weeks, dropping back to

2,000 to 3,000 IU/day for maintenance). Supplement with fish oil (5 mL/day). Add

a zinc supplement and a selenium supplement (50-100 mg of zinc, 100 mcg of

selenium). Naltrexone as prescribed.

>

> 3) Yoga. Exercise will do you good on many levels: stress; physical

conditioning; muscle use; and balance/coordination.

>

> If these do not stem the disease:

>

> 4) Minocycline as part of an antibiotic cocktail:

>

> http://www.davidwheldon.co.uk/ms-treatment1.html

>

> Read 's pages with great care. I sincerely believe he's onto something.

>

> Failing that, the recommendations get weirder and more desperate: helminth

therapy (colonization of the gut with small numbers of worms), stem cell

therapies available outside the United States, etc. But, frankly,

recommendations 1 through 4 may be capable of arresting the progress of multiple

sclerosis for most people without having to use the expensive (and largely

ineffective) drugs commonly prescribed for multiple sclerosis.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> There is more evidence for this, and the great offender is gluten:

>

>

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2009/06/gluten-coeliac-and-multiple-scler\

osis.html

While I consider gluten to be a " bad actor, " I think that pinning the entire

disease on gluten is a bit unfair. First off, when eliminating gluten, people

eliminate a lot of other stuff- the lectins and all that starch provided by

bread, for example. Don't forget Saccharomyces cerevisiae, the yeast used to

produce most breads; Crohn's patients frequently (50-60%) have

anti-Saccharomyces cerevisiae antibodies, which is so common it's given an

acronym: ASCA. Interestingly, I've never heard of a doctor telling a patient

with Crohn's to lay off the bread and/or beer fermented with S. cerevisiae

despite how frequent this condition is.

" Gluten-free " has become a frequent battle cry, and while there is one clear-cut

example of gluten (more precisely, the gliadin proteins found within gluten)

causing disease- celiac sprue- we should not be so quick to absolve the starch,

ASCA, and lectins that come with wheat, if for no better reason than that all

three components are found in other food products. In particular, perhaps

eliminating ALL grains to start would be a good idea.

Anyway- an interesting anecdote from the playwright MacDougall that should

be read by everyone with MS, just in case:

http://www.direct-ms.org/rogermcdougall.html

[Guest guest]

>

> Ahicks,

>

> Do you have MS, has this approach worked for you?

I do not. My postulates are based on extensive readings of diet, MS, and other

autoimmune disorders. What MacDougall wrote on the subject is very interesting,

as I have mentioned:

http://web.archive.org/web/20041103093349/http://www.direct-ms.org/roger.html

I do not believe " his " diet is a cure-all for MS; however, even if some

relatively small proportion of those suffering MS are to benefit by his diet, it

is worth exploration.

It would be an interesting experiment to place a relatively small number of MS

sufferers on an extremely low-carb diet (perhaps something like properly

prepared pemmican, supplemented with a small amount of vitamin C so as to assure

sufficiency of that vitamin) to see if the disease process can be halted.

One interesting note: MS was unknown in a population of some 20 million African

Bantu until the early 1970s when two serologically positive cases were

identified (cite: Refined Carbohydrate Foods and Disease: Some Implications of

Dietary Fibre, Editors DP Burkitt and Trowell). Burkitt and Trowell were very

happy to place the blame on a panoply of disorders in an absence of dietary

fiber. We now know, of course, that the only malady managed by fiber is

constipation; all those claims about " heart health " and cancer- pfft. A waste of

research dollars.

So- B & T's postulate that not enough fiber causes MS: what about that?

Interestingly, they seemed to have missed a couple of points. First off, the

Bantu didn't get many of their calories from wheat before the 1970s. Secondly,

while they did consume considerable quantities of grain- mainly corn- it was

fermented before consumption, sometimes twice. (Cite: Steinkraus, H, ed,

Handbook of Indigenous Fermented Foods, Marcel Dekker, Inc., New York, 189-198.)

Moreover, it was sieved to remove the fiber! (ibid) One wonders whether B & T

actually ever saw an African eat by the time they finished writing their book-

which I would consider extreme as the doctors did some excellent work on the

continent.

Of course, fermentation " burns up " carbohydrates, so the corn they were eating

was relatively high in protein, low in carbohydrates. From this, we have a huge

population that had almost no multiple sclerosis that was eating little wheat,

relatively few carbs, and got plenty of sunshine (vitamin D), presumably in

conjunction with a relatively high concentration of intestinal parasites-

helminths.

Now, that's a mighty big leap of faith, saying any one of these- or a

combination thereof- will help manage MS. But there are drips and drabs here and

there, a bit of data or an anecdote that leads one to believe that- heck, maybe

there's something to this, ya know? Worst case scenario: your brainular [sic]

problem continues, but you eat better by getting rid of stuff you shouldn't be

eating in the first place- grains, sugars, unfermented foods, etc., possibly

preventing degeneration from diabetes, heart disease, celiac disease, or other

autoimmune disorders that might be precipitated by poor diet. Bummer, right?

I do know of one person following a low-carb, grain-free diet in order to stave

off the disease, but they have been on this diet for only a few short months,

and while there have been no new attacks, it is too short a period of time to

determine whether diet is responsible. Similarly, other modalities (exercise,

naltrexone, supplementation) are simultaneously employed, as this is not an

experiment in which a single factor is varied: it is a lifestyle change in an

effort to cease progress of the disorder.

Simply put, the drugs for this disorder are largely ineffective at long-term

management. Symptoms may be improved in the short run, but the long-term

benefits are non-existent for all but a couple of drugs. I hesitate to even

mention it, as I believe there may be some placebo effect for those afflicted

with MS who take these medications. But the financial impact is huge, with very

few gaining benefit from such medications.

Moreover, the data supporting the concept that a cryptic little organism-

Chlamydia pneumoniae- may be responsible for at least a proportion of the cases

of MS is pretty good. The drug companies don't care- they'll continue to crank

out all kinds of esoteric and toxic biochemicals to regulate this system or hack

away at that system, none of which get to the root of the problem- the

infectious disease. And then you say- but what if a few factors (a diet low in

sugar and carbohydrates, high in vitamin D, heavy in fats with plenty of

protein, in conjunction with immuno-stimulating factors like vitamins and

naltrexone) can put the kibosh on Chla. pneumoniae? What if you're actually

getting to the *root* of the disease instead of trying to downregulate cryptic

biochemical pathways that do nothing but mask the symptoms- and even then, they

don't do a good job.

The problem with at least some autoimmune diseases is not that the immune system

is too " sharp, " it's that it's not sharp enough. If this is why naltrexone works

so well, I think we have another tool in the toolbox, folks.

[Guest guest]

Could you point me in the direction of a list of foods with ASCA? and the relative amounts? On Feb 15, 2010, at 10:43 AM, ahicks51 wrote:>> There is more evidence for this, and the great offender is gluten:> > http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2009/06/gluten-coeliac-and-multiple-sclerosis.htmlWhile I consider gluten to be a "bad actor," I think that pinning the entire disease on gluten is a bit unfair. First off, when eliminating gluten, people eliminate a lot of other stuff- the lectins and all that starch provided by bread, for example. Don't forget Saccharomyces cerevisiae, the yeast used to produce most breads; Crohn's patients frequently (50-60%) have anti-Saccharomyces cerevisiae antibodies, which is so common it's given an acronym: ASCA. Interestingly, I've never heard of a doctor telling a patient with Crohn's to lay off the bread and/or beer fermented with S. cerevisiae despite how frequent this condition is."Gluten-free" has become a frequent battle cry, and while there is one clear-cut example of gluten (more precisely, the gliadin proteins found within gluten) causing disease- celiac sprue- we should not be so quick to absolve the starch, ASCA, and lectins that come with wheat, if for no better reason than that all three components are found in other food products. In particular, perhaps eliminating ALL grains to start would be a good idea.Anyway- an interesting anecdote from the playwright MacDougall that should be read by everyone with MS, just in case:http://www.direct-ms.org/rogermcdougall.html

[Guest guest]

>

> Could you point me in the direction of a list of foods with ASCA? and

> the relative amounts?

Foods do not contain ASCA; your body produces antibodies to Saccharomyces

cerevisiae (the " SC " in ASCA), meaning that there is a sensitivity to foods

containing the yeast. Unfortunately, S. cerevisiae is the yeast used most

commonly to ferment bread and produce alcohol. From this, those with Crohn's who

have ASCA should presumably not consume breads or beverages produced with this

yeast. Of course, you need a blood test to see if you have antibodies to S.

cerevisiae, but with a better-than-even chance as a Crohnie that you have them,

you could safely cut out yeast and see if you feel better.

Interestingly, an allied organism- Saccharomyces boulardii- has been used as a

probiotic for Crohn's and colitis; I've not tried it, but there are a couple of

studies saying it works. Similarly, it is possible to make bread and beer with

S. boulardii, although it apparently tastes a bit differently- and one would

have to make such products on their own as only one or two are commercially

available:

http://www.byo.com/stories/article/indices/36-homebrew-stories/1751-pharmacy-bre\

wing-last-call

Probably not the kind of thing to purchase unless you're in their backyard. I've

emailed the pharmacist behind it, and never got a reply.

I just find it very odd- antibodies (meaning an allergy, or at least a

sensitivity) to a common yeast, but how many Crohnies are told " maybe you should

stay away from this " by their doctors? Best as I can tell, doctors haven't

recommended this, but it would seem to be blisteringly common-sense, ya know?

[Guest guest]

> Interestingly, an allied organism- Saccharomyces boulardii- has been used as a

probiotic for Crohn's and colitis; I've not tried it, but there are a couple of

studies saying it works. Similarly, it is possible to make bread and beer with

S. boulardii, although it apparently tastes a bit differently- and one would

have to make such products on their own as only one or two are commercially

available:

>

I'm actually on Sacro B. (Saccharmyces boulardii) as a treatment for C.

Difficile. It's one of very few organisms that seems to be effective against c.

difficile and explains why it's useful in some cases of crohn's and colitis. C.

Difficile is often behind colitis. I've had IBD, but more recently specifically

developed colitis because of c. diff. Doctors aren't sure how I contracted it -

I wasn't on antibiotics. I was taking oregano oil regularly though, so I'm

starting to wonder...

I'm on a raw vegan diet, which means no grains (if you can't cook them, they

aren't something you can eat). It helps my lupus sypmtoms.

Cami

http://healingfromlupus.blogspot.com

[Guest guest]

> I'm actually on Sacro B. (Saccharmyces boulardii) as a treatment for C.

Difficile. It's one of very few organisms that seems to be effective against c.

difficile and explains why it's useful in some cases of crohn's and colitis. C.

Difficile is often behind colitis. I've had IBD, but more recently specifically

developed colitis because of c. diff. Doctors aren't sure how I contracted it -

I wasn't on antibiotics. I was taking oregano oil regularly though, so I'm

starting to wonder...

Also note that Mutaflor (E. coli Nissle 1917 strain) as an enteric-coated form

of E. coli really seems to do a number for those with Crohn's. No idea if it'd

work on Cdiff. Also note there's only one vendor in the US; it's shipped in from

Germany- it costs about the same, from the vendor in the US or from Germany.

[Guest guest]

Thank you all for your information! It is greatly appreciated!

Yvette

> >

> > Could you point me in the direction of a list of foods with ASCA? and

> > the relative amounts?

>

> Foods do not contain ASCA; your body produces antibodies to Saccharomyces

cerevisiae (the " SC " in ASCA), meaning that there is a sensitivity to foods

containing the yeast. Unfortunately, S. cerevisiae is the yeast used most

commonly to ferment bread and produce alcohol. From this, those with Crohn's who

have ASCA should presumably not consume breads or beverages produced with this

yeast. Of course, you need a blood test to see if you have antibodies to S.

cerevisiae, but with a better-than-even chance as a Crohnie that you have them,

you could safely cut out yeast and see if you feel better.

>

> Interestingly, an allied organism- Saccharomyces boulardii- has been used as a

probiotic for Crohn's and colitis; I've not tried it, but there are a couple of

studies saying it works. Similarly, it is possible to make bread and beer with

S. boulardii, although it apparently tastes a bit differently- and one would

have to make such products on their own as only one or two are commercially

available:

>

>

http://www.byo.com/stories/article/indices/36-homebrew-stories/1751-pharmacy-bre\

wing-last-call

>

> Probably not the kind of thing to purchase unless you're in their backyard.

I've emailed the pharmacist behind it, and never got a reply.

>

> I just find it very odd- antibodies (meaning an allergy, or at least a

sensitivity) to a common yeast, but how many Crohnies are told " maybe you should

stay away from this " by their doctors? Best as I can tell, doctors haven't

recommended this, but it would seem to be blisteringly common-sense, ya know?

>