Re: Hepatitis C Lab Results after being on LDN since ...

[Guest guest]

Hi Bob,

Shortly after I started the 3 mg. LDN, I got the great book, The Promise of Low Dose Naltrexone" and in it, I read about the different theories of dosing, ie. Zahavi and Zagon. Dr. Berkson says that his patients either stay on 3 mg. or "if they can handle it" go on to 4.5. I also read that it can be good to take some time off of the LDN to give it a chance to leave your system. So, I'd take it for a week and then off for a couple of days.

Since that time, Zagon has spoken about how "less is more" and that it might accumulate in one's liver. But when I spoke to Dr. Zihari's assistant, he pooh-poohed the idea and said that all of Zihari's patients are all on 4.5, every night.

After I finished my first 3 mg. three month prescription (which lasted me almost 5 months) and had the great first post LDN lab work, I spoke with Skip Lenz, the pharmacist about upping my dose and he told me, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", so I stayed on the 3 mg. On my second labs, my viral load went down even more on the 3 mg. with every other night dosing. Then, there was a discussion on the Hepatitis Cam group that it might be dangerous to skip doses with a virus such as hepatitis as it can replicate so quickly. And I was finding that I was feeling better if I took the LDN every night - so I started taking it almost every night. My viral load did go up a tad but it was still lower than it had been for my initial post LDN labs.

I am going to increase it to 3.5 for now - and see what happens on my next labs. At 107 pounds, I believe that even such a small increase might make a difference. One of my models is Joyce's daughter, who at the age of 8 or 9, seroconverted her Hepatitis B virus when her dose was slightly increased.

Of course, this is all guess work as there are no studies regarding Hepatitis C (or any other kind of hepatitis) and LDN. Another reason we desperately need a clinical trial for it. No one really knows what the "correct" dose is for Hepatitis C and LDN.

I would love to get Dr. Berkson's advice on this but unfortunately, unless I go back to New Mexico, he will not give out medical info on the phone. He probably wouldn't approve of skipping doses either. So, I will just have to be a guinea pig and find out on my own.

The sleep issues do pass - I sleep like a baby now with the LDN and I had a very hard time in the beginning. Just stick with it and don't be in a hurry to up your dosage. Let your lab results be your guide.

As for the lymphocytes, I read or heard somewhere that Bihari said that the LDN really doesn't increase them - I believe that with hiv/aids, it keeps one's CD4 or T4 cells from decreasing - don't quote me on that though.

Ribavirin and LDN - hmm - seems that the LDN pretty much does a better job just on it's own - but it could be interesting.

"Possible mechanisms include depletion of the intracellular triphosphate pools through the direct inhibition of inosine monophosphate dehydrogenase, inhibition of the S'-cap structure of viral mRNA, and inhibition of the viral dependent RNA polymerases. Moreover, it has recently been proposed that ribavirin does not act as an antiviral drug, but rather as an inhibitor of macrophage pro-inflammatory cytokines and as an immune modulator preserving the Th 1 and reducing the Th2 cytokine production."

Recently, two randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled ribavirin trials were reported.l¡ ll The results were consistent with previous uncontrolled studies. Thus, a biochemical response with reduction of transaminase levels during treatment was seen in ribavirin treated patients, whereas no virological eradication was achieved (table 1). However, a slight but significant decline of serum HCV RNA levels during treatment as measured by branched DNA assay was seen in the ribavirin group.ll After treatment, rebound to pretreatment levels was noted. The necro-inflammatory activity, particularly periportal and intralobular inflammation, was significantly reduced for patients treated with ribavirin when liver biopsies from before and at the end of treatment were compared. The predominant adverse events noted were hemolysis (necessitating a dose reduction in 13 percent of patients), nervous system disorders (fatigue, depression, insomnia, and vertigo), gastrointestinal disorders (anorexia and nausea), and skin disorders (pruritus, rash, and eczema).

http://www.hepatitis-central.com/hcv/ribavirin/ribaifn.html

For me, using LDN and the IV ALA treatments resulted in an abdominal ultrasound that showed "normal liver function" after having 7 consecutive ones that had "steatosis" on every single one - and no side effects. Think I'll stick with that instead of any of the Big Pharma crap.

Have your labs done - I hate it too - but for me, the LDN worked in a matter of months. LFT's and viral load if you can get your doc to run it.

Good luck!

Nola Chris

In a message dated 1/7/2010 7:44:12 P.M. Central Standard Time, yunnokoslo@... writes:

Hi Chris.Bob , here in Houston Thanks for the good news report. As you saidthinks look stable , yes it would have been nice to see the virus down to a very low number or even gone but that may be to much to ask,although I do have that in the back of my mind. Miracles do happen, as you know some people clear it on their own, so it is possible, not likely but possible. I even mentioned to my hepatologist a LDN treatment program with some ribavirin to stop replication and skip the interferon, who knows it might clear it without all the side effects. So your back to daily, okay, and thinking about 4.5 I guess. I am still on 3 about 1 month and I do see it wakes me up still around 3 or 4 and somehow it is effecting my total sleep/energy cycle. Its hard to explain because I have other issues so again who knows, more time will tell. I have taken a night off like you and did seem to sleep better the night off, kinda like catching up on some shut-eye. Was that you rationale for doing it like that?. Has Berkson had any opinion on every other day or even taking breaks? How does one know 4.5mg is better, lab work or just how one feels?I need to study your blood work some more to understand the white blood cell count, the problem with ranges are their is to much of a wide window like Absolute Natural Killer Cells NK range 70-760, that is to wide a range, we need to know what is optimal! this is where Brekson comes in. I am due for lab work but am tired of getting poked and prodded by amateur phlebotomist, but need to go in, soon. I'll let you know, and the group. Sincerely Bob K. >> Hi,> > I've been using 3 mg. LDN for my Hepatitis C since I saw Dr. Berkson at his > clinic in New Mexico early last year. I've had great results with it > reducing my HCV viral load, as well as stabilizing my liver enzymes.> > I'm posting here as my lab work also includes levels for my Sjogren's and > RA, as well as my lymphocytes.> > > I was a bit apprehensive as I didn't feel too well on the morning of my > labwork - I had that "virusey" feeling and was also a bit stressed as they > couldn't find the tests that they needed to run in the Quest Lab computer - > so I sat for 45 minutes fuming. I had been feeling great except for that > day (of course).> > My HCV viral load crept up a bit from 18,729 in September to 34,524 - not > too bad considering how I felt that day. Last January, prior to going on > LDN, it was 1,280,000 and had dropped to 49,400 in June after being on LDN > for 3 months. So I'm staying pretty stable - better than skyrocketing back > up but not going down as I had hoped. For awhile, I was taking the 3 mg. > LDN every other night, but for the last month or so, I went back to every > night dosing. I will discuss with my doctor about possibly increasing the > LDN dosage.> > My ALT/AST were back to normal range though they weren't that high last > time. In January last year, my ALT was 174, in May it dropped to 23, in > Sept. it was 36 (range 6-40) and now is 34. My AST was 99 in January, 30 in > May, 37 in Sept.(range 10-35) and 31 now.> > Albumin (range 3.6 - 5.1) 4.8 - was 4.9 - it was 5.2 last January> > Globulin (range 2.2 - 3.9) 2.9 from 3.0 - it was 3.7 last January> > Bilirubin total (range 0.2 - 1.2) 0.7 from 1.1> > Alkaline Phosphatase (range 33-130) 66 from 57> > Total Protein - (range 6.2 - 8.3) 7.7 from 7.9 - it was 8.9 last January> > Alpha Fetoprotein - 5.0 same as last time - was 6.1 which was high earlier > last year.> > My ferritin dropped from 80 to 38 which might be pushing it a bit - I'd > been religiously taking IP-6 along with a product called Chelaco (which my doc > sells). Folks with Hep C (and other disorders) often have very high iron

[Guest guest]

Zahavi is a member of this group and his wife uses LDN.

You meant to write Dr. Bihari.

Art

--

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > I've been using 3 mg. LDN for my Hepatitis C since I saw Dr. Berkson at

> his

> > clinic in New Mexico early last year. I've had great results with it

> > reducing my HCV viral load, as well as stabilizing my liver enzymes.

> >

> > I'm posting here as my lab work also includes levels for my Sjogren's

> and

> > RA, as well as my lymphocytes.

> >

> >

> > I was a bit apprehensive as I didn't feel too well on the morning of my

> > labwork - I had that " virusey " feeling and was also a bit stressed as

> they

> > couldn't find the tests that they needed to run in the Quest Lab

> computer -

> > so I sat for 45 minutes fuming. I had been feeling great except for that

> > day (of course).

> >

> > My HCV viral load crept up a bit from 18,729 in September to 34,524 -

> not

> > too bad considering how I felt that day. Last January, prior to going on

> > LDN, it was 1,280,000 and had dropped to 49,400 in June after being on

> LDN

> > for 3 months. So I'm staying pretty stable - better than skyrocketing

> back

> > up but not going down as I had hoped. For awhile, I was taking the 3 mg.

>

> > LDN every other night, but for the last month or so, I went back to

> every

> > night dosing. I will discuss with my doctor about possibly increasing

> the

> > LDN dosage.

> >

> > My ALT/AST were back to normal range though they weren't that high last

> > time. In January last year, my ALT was 174, in May it dropped to 23, in

> > Sept. it was 36 (range 6-40) and now is 34. My AST was 99 in January, 30

> in

> > May, 37 in Sept.(range 10-35) and 31 now.

> >

> > Albumin (range 3.6 - 5.1) 4.8 - was 4.9 - it was 5.2 last January

> >

> > Globulin (range 2.2 - 3.9) 2.9 from 3.0 - it was 3.7 last January

> >

> > Bilirubin total (range 0.2 - 1.2) 0.7 from 1.1

> >

> > Alkaline Phosphatase (range 33-130) 66 from 57

> >

> > Total Protein - (range 6.2 - 8.3) 7.7 from 7.9 - it was 8.9 last January

> >

> > Alpha Fetoprotein - 5.0 same as last time - was 6.1 which was high

> earlier

> > last year.

> >

> > My ferritin dropped from 80 to 38 which might be pushing it a bit - I'd

> > been religiously taking IP-6 along with a product called Chelaco (which

> my doc

> > sells). Folks with Hep C (and other disorders) often have very high iron

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry Zahavi - mixed you up with Dr. Bihari in my post, lol. Bob and others - replace Zahavi's name with Bihari. Too much typing last night......

Nola Chris

In a message dated 1/8/2010 12:21:20 A.M. Central Standard Time, Smalk50 writes:

Hi Bob,

Shortly after I started the 3 mg. LDN, I got the great book, The Promise of Low Dose Naltrexone" and in it, I read about the different theories of dosing, ie. Zahavi and Zagon. Dr. Berkson says that his patients either stay on 3 mg. or "if they can handle it" go on to 4.5. I also read that it can be good to take some time off of the LDN to give it a chance to leave your system. So, I'd take it for a week and then off for a couple of days.

Since that time, Zagon has spoken about how "less is more" and that it might accumulate in one's liver. But when I spoke to Dr. Zihari's assistant, he pooh-poohed the idea and said that all of Zihari's patients are all on 4.5, every night.

After I finished my first 3 mg. three month prescription (which lasted me almost 5 months) and had the great first post LDN lab work, I spoke with Skip Lenz, the pharmacist about upping my dose and he told me, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", so I stayed on the 3 mg. On my second labs, my viral load went down even more on the 3 mg. with every other night dosing. Then, there was a discussion on the Hepatitis Cam group that it might be dangerous to skip doses with a virus such as hepatitis as it can replicate so quickly. And I was finding that I was feeling better if I took the LDN every night - so I started taking it almost every night. My viral load did go up a tad but it was still lower than it had been for my initial post LDN labs.

I am going to increase it to 3.5 for now - and see what happens on my next labs. At 107 pounds, I believe that even such a small increase might make a difference. One of my models is Joyce's daughter, who at the age of 8 or 9, seroconverted her Hepatitis B virus when her dose was slightly increased.

Of course, this is all guess work as there are no studies regarding Hepatitis C (or any other kind of hepatitis) and LDN. Another reason we desperately need a clinical trial for it. No one really knows what the "correct" dose is for Hepatitis C and LDN.

I would love to get Dr. Berkson's advice on this but unfortunately, unless I go back to New Mexico, he will not give out medical info on the phone. He probably wouldn't approve of skipping doses either. So, I will just have to be a guinea pig and find out on my own.

The sleep issues do pass - I sleep like a baby now with the LDN and I had a very hard time in the beginning. Just stick with it and don't be in a hurry to up your dosage. Let your lab results be your guide.

As for the lymphocytes, I read or heard somewhere that Bihari said that the LDN really doesn't increase them - I believe that with hiv/aids, it keeps one's CD4 or T4 cells from decreasing - don't quote me on that though.

Ribavirin and LDN - hmm - seems that the LDN pretty much does a better job just on it's own - but it could be interesting.

"Possible mechanisms include depletion of the intracellular triphosphate pools through the direct inhibition of inosine monophosphate dehydrogenase, inhibition of the S'-cap structure of viral mRNA, and inhibition of the viral dependent RNA polymerases. Moreover, it has recently been proposed that ribavirin does not act as an antiviral drug, but rather as an inhibitor of macrophage pro-inflammatory cytokines and as an immune modulator preserving the Th 1 and reducing the Th2 cytokine production."

Recently, two randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled ribavirin trials were reported.l¡ ll The results were consistent with previous uncontrolled studies. Thus, a biochemical response with reduction of transaminase levels during treatment was seen in ribavirin treated patients, whereas no virological eradication was achieved (table 1). However, a slight but significant decline of serum HCV RNA levels during treatment as measured by branched DNA assay was seen in the ribavirin group.ll After treatment, rebound to pretreatment levels was noted. The necro-inflammatory activity, particularly periportal and intralobular inflammation, was significantly reduced for patients treated with ribavirin when liver biopsies from before and at the end of treatment were compared. The predominant adverse events noted were hemolysis (necessitating a dose reduction in 13 percent of patients), nervous system disorders (fatigue, depression, insomnia, and vertigo), gastrointestinal disorders (anorexia and nausea), and skin disorders (pruritus, rash, and eczema).

http://www.hepatitis-central.com/hcv/ribavirin/ribaifn.html

For me, using LDN and the IV ALA treatments resulted in an abdominal ultrasound that showed "normal liver function" after having 7 consecutive ones that had "steatosis" on every single one - and no side effects. Think I'll stick with that instead of any of the Big Pharma crap.

Have your labs done - I hate it too - but for me, the LDN worked in a matter of months. LFT's and viral load if you can get your doc to run it.

Good luck!

Nola Chris

In a message dated 1/7/2010 7:44:12 P.M. Central Standard Time, yunnokoslo@... writes:

Hi Chris.Bob , here in Houston Thanks for the good news report. As you saidthinks look stable , yes it would have been nice to see the virus down to a very low number or even gone but that may be to much to ask,although I do have that in the back of my mind. Miracles do happen, as you know some people clear it on their own, so it is possible, not likely but possible. I even mentioned to my hepatologist a LDN treatment program with some ribavirin to stop replication and skip the interferon, who knows it might clear it without all the side effects. So your back to daily, okay, and thinking about 4.5 I guess. I am still on 3 about 1 month and I do see it wakes me up still around 3 or 4 and somehow it is effecting my total sleep/energy cycle. Its hard to explain because I have other issues so again who knows, more time will tell. I have taken a night off like you and did seem to sleep better the night off, kinda like catching up on some shut-eye. Was that you rationale for doing it like that?. Has Berkson had any opinion on every other day or even taking breaks? How does one know 4.5mg is better, lab work or just how one feels?I need to study your blood work some more to understand the white blood cell count, the problem with ranges are their is to much of a wide window like Absolute Natural Killer Cells NK range 70-760, that is to wide a range, we need to know what is optimal! this is where Brekson comes in. I am due for lab work but am tired of getting poked and prodded by amateur phlebotomist, but need to go in, soon. I'll let you know, and the group. Sincerely Bob K. >> Hi,> > I've been using 3 mg. LDN for my Hepatitis C since I saw Dr. Berkson at his > clinic in New Mexico early last year. I've had great results with it > reducing my HCV viral load, as well as stabilizing my liver enzymes.> > I'm posting here as my lab work also includes levels for my Sjogren's and > RA, as well as my lymphocytes.> > > I was a bit apprehensive as I didn't feel too well on the morning of my > labwork - I had that "virusey" feeling and was also a bit stressed as they > couldn't find the tests that they needed to run in the Quest Lab computer - > so I sat for 45 minutes fuming. I had been feeling great except for that > day (of course).> > My HCV viral load crept up a bit from 18,729 in September to 34,524 - not > too bad considering how I felt that day. Last January, prior to going on > LDN, it was 1,280,000 and had dropped to 49,400 in June after being on LDN > for 3 months. So I'm staying pretty stable - better than skyrocketing back > up but not going down as I had hoped. For awhile, I was taking the 3 mg. > LDN every other night, but for the last month or so, I went back to every > night dosing. I will discuss with my doctor about possibly increasing the > LDN dosage.> > My ALT/AST were back to normal range though they weren't that high last > time. In January last year, my ALT was 174, in May it dropped to 23, in > Sept. it was 36 (range 6-40) and now is 34. My AST was 99 in January, 30 in > May, 37 in Sept.(range 10-35) and 31 now.> > Albumin (range 3.6 - 5.1) 4.8 - was 4.9 - it was 5.2 last January> > Globulin (range 2.2 - 3.9) 2.9 from 3.0 - it was 3.7 last January> > Bilirubin total (range 0.2 - 1.2) 0.7 from 1.1> > Alkaline Phosphatase (range 33-130) 66 from 57> > Total Protein - (range 6.2 - 8.3) 7.7 from 7.9 - it was 8.9 last January> > Alpha Fetoprotein - 5.0 same as last time - was 6.1 which was high earlier > last year.> > My ferritin dropped from 80 to 38 which might be pushing it a bit - I'd > been religiously taking IP-6 along with a product called Chelaco (which my doc > sells). Folks with Hep C (and other disorders) often have very high iron

[Guest guest]

it is a great honor to be mixed with dr bihari