Re: is buhner protocol ok if one also has autoimmune disease?

[Guest guest]

>

> I made an initial stab at treating it with resveratrol, but it worsened my

already chronic diarrhea, so I stopped immediately.

was that with the bulk herb or pills? Keep in mind that some of the resveratrol

(knotweed) pills have binders that can lead to gut problems.

> My initial diagnosis back in 93 was autoimmune disease, and I'm wondering now

if it wasn't the spirochete and/or its cohort(s) that triggered the autoimmune

response. So this is my question: is there any conflict with the herbs in the

core protocol for those of us who also have an autoimmune condition? Are there

any contraindications that anyone is aware of?

IMHO 'auto-immune' is usually a fancy word for 'don't know'.

It is not a valid diagnoses, as in many examples of 'auto-immune' disease

auto-immunity has not been proven at all. Over the last 1-2 generations

auto-immune diseases have increased strongly everywhere in the developed world.

Why would the immune system suddenly start attacking its own body? Nonsense

IMHO. For most auto-immune conditions the cause is unknown, although for many of

them infections have been suggested as a possible factor.

As you already suggest, spirochetes (and probably many other bacteria) can

trigger immune responses that can be confused with auto-immunity, e.g. because

the tests did not detect the micro-organism that the doc was looking for, so

they simply say it is 'auto-immune'.

However, one has to make a clear distinction between auto-immune (where the

immune system really targets body antigens) and cross-reactions (where the

immune system targets pathogen antigens that happen to be similar to human

antigens). With cross-reactions, the problem should disappear when the bugs are

gone. The problem in Lyme is that there is no sure way to get rid of Bb for

good, and no sure way of testing if it is gone.

My guess is that basic Buhners herbs like knotweed are beneficial for many so

called 'auto-immune diseases'. I'm not aware of contra-indications, however when

using antibiotics it is known that for some 'auto-immune' conditions this is a

risk (e.g. with ALS). Always build up slowly and 'listen to your body'.

[Guest guest]

> >

> > I made an initial stab at treating it with resveratrol, but it worsened my

already chronic diarrhea, so I stopped immediately.

>

> was that with the bulk herb or pills? Keep in mind that some of the

resveratrol (knotweed) pills have binders that can lead to gut problems.

>

it was capsules. i havent tried bulk herb. have you a recommendation?

thank you for your thoughtful reply. and yes, i am very suspicious of the

autoimmune diagnosis, too.

>

clarification, please: when you say:

The problem in Lyme is that there is no sure way to get rid of Bb for good, and

no sure way of testing if it is gone.

is this the consensus on this listserve and in other lyme support groups--than

one can never be free of the bug/s, that we have to keep battling them with

herbs or rife or abx for as long as we live?

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> it was capsules. i havent tried bulk herb. have you a recommendation?

I use bulk herbs from 1st Chinese Herbs and encapsulate them in 00 gelatin

capsules. Much cheaper than ready made pills, just a lot of work ...

> clarification, please: when you say:

>

> The problem in Lyme is that there is no sure way to get rid of Bb for good,

and no sure way of testing if it is gone.

>

> is this the consensus on this listserve and in other lyme support groups--than

one can never be free of the bug/s, that we have to keep battling them with

herbs or rife or abx for as long as we live?

> >

we know from animal studies that if they are 'saturated' with antibiotics for

several months most, but not ALL, spirochetes disappear. The animal looks

healthy for some time (e.g. in blood tests, immune response disappears) but

ultimately many relapse when the ABX treatment is stopped (sometimes takes a

year or so).

No matter what you try, there often remain live spirochetes and cysts in the

tissues. The cysts convert back to spirochetes when the ABX are gone.

With normal infections the remaining bacteria are cleared by the immune system,

with Lyme this does not seem to work. Maybe because the immune system cannot get

a grip on this 'shapeshifting' organism, so there is no aquired immunity and it

starts proliferating again.

I don't think it is necessary to get rid of the bugs to feel healthy, maybe you

can keep them in check by finding the right 'balance' in your body (immune

system etc.). However, I think it will often prove a delicate balance, as soon

as you have another serious condition you are at risk of a Lyme relapse.

We do not know if you can really get rid of Bb. Some research suggests that

there are differences between individual Bb strains, where some infections clear

automatically after some time, and other strains will cause persistent infection

no matter what you try. Maybe this also depends on your genetic makeup, e.g.

antigenic similarity between you and the Bb strain that you got from the tick.

So, if you are lucky you may have a non-persistent strain that disappears after

some months, even if you use a very 'silly' treatment. And if you have bad luck

maybe you can battle it forever without a chance of final victory. On the forums

you can find many examples of people who have been battling for years, either

with ABX or other treatments. At least in some cases it has been proven that

people where still infected with Bb after years of ABX treatment, similar to

what was seen in lab animals.