spirochete / endosymbiont ?

[Guest guest]

>

> Yes, it should be mutually beneficial. In case of a spirochete endosymbiont

the advantage for us is clear: if they gave us our brains and muscles, they gave

us some of the biggest evolutionairy advantages ever. If true, this would put

the 'auto-immune' hypothesis of Lyme in an entirely different light.

P.S.: obviously this is all in hindsight, and it does not apply at the moment

the symbiosis starts, or it only worked in a very weak form. Maybe the

spirochete contributed something that was the first spark of a nervous system.

Maybe the symbiosis started as some kind of parasitism that got gradually more

beneficial. The assumption is that if the symbiosis works for both parties, the

combination will be evolutionairy favored. Some people assume that there is

purpose in evolution (e.g. that is working in steps towards some goal) but that

is a complicated discussion and mostly outside the realm of science.

[Guest guest]

This is all a bit new to me. How do we know that there was mutual benefit? What

if one got something from the other but the other didn't benefit? Like the

spirochete got something out of it, but the entity it latched onto didn't. That

would be more of a parasitic relationship then, I guess.

What's the possible link to our nerves and muscles? I thought they take

advantage of us, not give us anything.

I read a little about organism biology last night. Spirochetes are prokaryotic

and our cells are eukaryotic.

[ ] spirochete / endosymbiont ?

>

> Yes, it should be mutually beneficial. In case of a spirochete endosymbiont

the advantage for us is clear: if they gave us our brains and muscles, they gave

us some of the biggest evolutionairy advantages ever. If true, this would put

the 'auto-immune' hypothesis of Lyme in an entirely different light.

P.S.: obviously this is all in hindsight, and it does not apply at the moment

the symbiosis starts, or it only worked in a very weak form. Maybe the

spirochete contributed something that was the first spark of a nervous system.

Maybe the symbiosis started as some kind of parasitism that got gradually more

beneficial. The assumption is that if the symbiosis works for both parties, the

combination will be evolutionairy favored. Some people assume that there is

purpose in evolution (e.g. that is working in steps towards some goal) but that

is a complicated discussion and mostly outside the realm of science.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> This is all a bit new to me. How do we know that there was mutual benefit?

What if one got something from the other but the other didn't benefit?

we don't know what the initial situation was and there is discussion if these

are just random events that turned out into something useful, or some kind of

'directed' evolution.

if the relationship was strictly parasitic, one would normally expect it to

disappear in the course of evolution, depending on how aggressive the parasite

is. The most effective parasites are those that provide an advantage to the

host, so the host has evolutionairy advantage despite the parasite.

> What's the possible link to our nerves and muscles? I thought they take

advantage of us, not give us anything.

our nerves and muscles are built from material that is very similar to the

tubular structures in the spirochete (e.g. the flagella). It could be that the

similarity is caused because there is only one optimal mechanical structure for

nerve or muscle fibers in nature, but that sounds like a stretch to me. More

likely is that these structures have a common ancestor and the spirochete is the

most likely one.

> I read a little about organism biology last night. Spirochetes are prokaryotic

and our cells are eukaryotic.

prokaryotic / eukaryotic division is very simplistic, reality is much more

colorful. Spirochetes are not simple prokaryotes, in some ways they are very

different from other prokaryotes (bacteria).

One of the things that sets eukaryotes apart from prokaryotes is that they have

a nucleus and other specialised compartments like mitochondria and chloroplasts,

while in prokaryotes everything just kind of drifts in the cell protoplasm. The

specialised compartments are probably the remains of endosymbiosis (also the

nucleus, although like with nerve/muscle cells that is scientifically more

controversial).

[Guest guest]

>

P.S.: if you are interested in the subject, I suggest you read something about

the work of Lynn Margulis. She is the one who developed the 'serial

endosymbiosis' hypothesis for the origin of eukaryotic cells. Margulis is a

colorful (and often controversial) person, former wife of Carl Sagan and a

member of the US Academy of Sciences.

She is also involved with Gaia theory, a theory that at the spiritual level is

very similar to what Buhner is thinking.

Gaia theory (there are many flavors of it) suggests a connection between all

life on earth that is much deeper than what current science tells us. You will

not read anythying about that in 'Healing Lyme', but it is obvious in some other

Buhner books. My guess is that Buhner and Margulis know each other, or at least

have some of the same friends.