Re: Herbs and/or antibiotics

[Guest guest]

My recall [i'd have to check the book to be sure] is that Buhner does not say it

is BEST to combine abx w/herbs, but that it is OK to.

In my case, for example, I had long-time Lyme which was vanished with herbs

alone. Many people, myself included, consider abx to be " weapons of mass

destruction " -

they kill everything, they reduce the ability of your own immune system to work.

Our immune systems are really all we have to protect us against all the toxic

stuff that's out there.

If you stay on a steady diet of abx, and put your immune system out of kilter,

then go into a hospital with all the infectious organisms like mrsa running

around, you are in deep trouble.

Most people I know who stay on a steady treatment of abx, have one

infection/cold/flu after the other, bec. their immune system is out of whack.

By contrast, Buhner's herbal protocol will build your immune system, thus making

you more able to resist all the other bad things out there.

My opinion. Each person will make their own decision.

Consider all the consequences though.

ellen

> >

> > Hi I am new to this site and just was diagnosed with cystic or chronic lyme,

this is after 2 years of having the diagnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome, I

have recently started antibiotic treatment and I am planning on using the buhner

protacol along with it,

> > Have any of you tried this combination????

>

>

> Buhner himself suggests that it is best to combine the herbs with antibiotics,

because with herbs alone it is difficult to eradicate the borrelia. Using just

herbs is an option if you have a low spirochete load (mild symptoms) or if your

body cannot handle the antibiotics.

>

> I think many people on this list tried antibiotics (with insufficient results,

or too much problems) before starting Buhner herbs.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> My recall [i'd have to check the book to be sure] is that Buhner does not say

it is BEST to combine abx w/herbs, but that it is OK to.

>

> In my case, for example, I had long-time Lyme which was vanished with herbs

alone. Many people, myself included, consider abx to be " weapons of mass

destruction " -

agree, but Buhner has repeatedly said that he thinks that chronic Lyme is very

difficult to eradicate, and because of that using ABX in addition to the herbs

may be necessary. If you can do it without ABX that is better obviously.

I think it depends on how well one can tolerate ABX; some people have very

little trouble with longterm ABX use (maybe they have a better gut microflora or

something?). I don't tolerate ABX well apparently so haven't used them since

starting Buhner protocol.

[Guest guest]

I have been tolerating 7 months of oral abxs (amoxicillin, then zithromax &

mepron, now ceftin & biaxin) well. I've seen slow improvements, some

backsliding. I went undiagnosed for 5 1/2 yrs, so will be going on IV abx

sometime in the near future. At some point, hopefully during a remission, I plan

to try herbs etc. to keep the infection(s) at bay.

Pamela Weintraub, former NY Times science journalist published a book called

Cure Unknown. She and her family all became infected with Lyme & Co-infections.

She did a lot of research for the book. In it she states that 15-20% of

patients on long term antibiotics continue to relapse off

antibiotics--suggesting for some patients antibiotics are not as effective.

There are probably a host of factors contributing to this failure rate: length

of time infected, patients general health & immune system,genetic make-up,

condition of gut flora, which strains of borrelia & co-infections are present

etc. Currently there are no definitive tests to prove one is cured. That

doesn't mean people don't get well, many do. The question is have all the

infectious organisms been irradicated.

There are definitely people who cannot tolerate long term antibiotics. You have

to take very good care of yourself whether you go the antibiotic route or not:

strict diet, exercise (when able), rest when needed, keep stress at bay,

supplements, and a high quality probiotic. I have found meditation and yoga

helpful.

Kim

[ ] Herbs and/or antibiotics

I disagree with the contention that long term antibiotic use destroys the immune

system. I have been treated with many antibiotics over the past four years,

both oral and IV. My immune system was in such a bad state that without the

antibiotics, I could have never managed to come back from Lyme and the four

co-infections I had.

I have had no colds and only one virus in all of this time so as long as your

doctor is supplementing your immune system with the proper supplementation,

there is a decent chance that you will eventually be fine. I am also using

Buhner's protocol along with some other herbs my doctor uses and for me, neither

is a panacea. However I have come along way and I could have never come this

far without the antibiotics.

Just another perspective.

[Guest guest]

HI, well I have been having challenges taking abx. I was on oral doxy for 2

months in the fall; relapsed during the 2nd month on it. Now I'm on IV Rocephin

for 6 weeks [10 days to go]. Was doing well but symptoms re-emerged again this

week. Feeling discouraged. My diet's been good; I've practically gone gluten

and processed sugar-free. Hard to reduce stress with small children at home but

I've tried. I only got lyme last spring -- misdiagnosed 'till October --

suppose that was long enough to make this very difficult to treat. I know of

someone else who had it for over a year, went on IV Rocephin and recovered

completely.

I haven't taken Buhner's herbs yet [except for Resveratol] because the

contraindications said not to take while taking blood thinners. On this IV, I

give myself heparin flushes during the day --- when I do the infusion and there

are times during the day when blood backs up into the tube and I need to flush

it out again with heparin. So I'm waiting 'till off the treatment to do the

cat's claw and the androphagis. Feeling discouraged today; this is hard

sometimes.

[ ] Herbs and/or antibiotics

I disagree with the contention that long term antibiotic use destroys the immune

system. I have been treated with many antibiotics over the past four years, both

oral and IV. My immune system was in such a bad state that without the

antibiotics, I could have never managed to come back from Lyme and the four

co-infections I had.

I have had no colds and only one virus in all of this time so as long as your

doctor is supplementing your immune system with the proper supplementation,

there is a decent chance that you will eventually be fine. I am also using

Buhner's protocol along with some other herbs my doctor uses and for me, neither

is a panacea. However I have come along way and I could have never come this far

without the antibiotics.

Just another perspective.

[Guest guest]

Hi Kate,

I'm in the same boat as you, did the doxy, then the Rocephrin IV and

Bicillin shots, good diet, etc., took a break from the abx's and now I

feel worse. I am going to start doing salt/c or buhner, I wish I had been

doing something all along in conjunction with the abx's. I think you have

to be hitting them with something all along so when you stop the abx's,

there's something there to still battle the lyme. Some people can put

lyme in remission with just abx's, and others like myself who have

lyme/coinfections, the abx's don't seem to work so easily.

On Monday, I found that after taking a hot sauna and then a hot bath

w/epson salts, for 2 days I felt pretty good, today I feel all the

symptons coming back. I think heat has something to do w/it. My temp is

always low now, usually in the 95.5 - 96 range/ cold fingers/cold toes,

and I think the bugs like it cold. So heating them up seems to push them

back a bit.

I would get blood backing up in the iv line as well, I would let a little

suction in and that caused the backup, clamp it quickly after you clean

the line and don't pull back on the syringe, this creates suction.

Hopefully that'll help.

Make sure you're taking a good probiotic throughout the day as well.

All the best!

From:

Katenyc5@...

To:

Date:

01/22/2010 02:03 PM

Subject:

Re: [ ] Herbs and/or antibiotics

Sent by:

HI, well I have been having challenges taking abx. I was on oral doxy for

2 months in the fall; relapsed during the 2nd month on it. Now I'm on IV

Rocephin for 6 weeks [10 days to go]. Was doing well but symptoms

re-emerged again this week. Feeling discouraged. My diet's been good; I've

practically gone gluten and processed sugar-free. Hard to reduce stress

with small children at home but I've tried. I only got lyme last spring --

misdiagnosed 'till October -- suppose that was long enough to make this

very difficult to treat. I know of someone else who had it for over a

year, went on IV Rocephin and recovered completely.

I haven't taken Buhner's herbs yet [except for Resveratol] because the

contraindications said not to take while taking blood thinners. On this

IV, I give myself heparin flushes during the day --- when I do the

infusion and there are times during the day when blood backs up into the

tube and I need to flush it out again with heparin. So I'm waiting 'till

off the treatment to do the cat's claw and the androphagis. Feeling

discouraged today; this is hard sometimes.

[ ] Herbs and/or antibiotics

I disagree with the contention that long term antibiotic use destroys the

immune system. I have been treated with many antibiotics over the past

four years, both oral and IV. My immune system was in such a bad state

that without the antibiotics, I could have never managed to come back from

Lyme and the four co-infections I had.

I have had no colds and only one virus in all of this time so as long as

your doctor is supplementing your immune system with the proper

supplementation, there is a decent chance that you will eventually be

fine. I am also using Buhner's protocol along with some other herbs my

doctor uses and for me, neither is a panacea. However I have come along

way and I could have never come this far without the antibiotics.

Just another perspective.

[Guest guest]

Hi. I've been on the Buhner protocol for 8 months. I feel good,

though I have

no idea when I come off them whether the symptoms will return. I'll

let you know.

I do know that my tests have improved 60% since I was first diagnosed.

On Jan 22, 2010, at 2:30 PM, alicia.colon@... wrote:

> Hi Kate,

>

> I'm in the same boat as you, did the doxy, then the Rocephrin IV and

> Bicillin shots, good diet, etc., took a break from the abx's and now I

> feel worse. I am going to start doing salt/c or buhner, I wish I

> had been

> doing something all along in conjunction with the abx's. I think

> you have

> to be hitting them with something all along so when you stop the

> abx's,

> there's something there to still battle the lyme. Some people can put

> lyme in remission with just abx's, and others like myself who have

> lyme/coinfections, the abx's don't seem to work so easily.

>

> On Monday, I found that after taking a hot sauna and then a hot bath

> w/epson salts, for 2 days I felt pretty good, today I feel all the

> symptons coming back. I think heat has something to do w/it. My

> temp is

> always low now, usually in the 95.5 - 96 range/ cold fingers/cold

> toes,

> and I think the bugs like it cold. So heating them up seems to push

> them

> back a bit.

>

> I would get blood backing up in the iv line as well, I would let a

> little

> suction in and that caused the backup, clamp it quickly after you

> clean

> the line and don't pull back on the syringe, this creates suction.

> Hopefully that'll help.

>

> Make sure you're taking a good probiotic throughout the day as well.

>

> All the best!

>

> From:

> Katenyc5@...

> To:

>

> Date:

> 01/22/2010 02:03 PM

> Subject:

> Re: [ ] Herbs and/or antibiotics

> Sent by:

>

>

> HI, well I have been having challenges taking abx. I was on oral

> doxy for

> 2 months in the fall; relapsed during the 2nd month on it. Now I'm

> on IV

> Rocephin for 6 weeks [10 days to go]. Was doing well but symptoms

> re-emerged again this week. Feeling discouraged. My diet's been

> good; I've

> practically gone gluten and processed sugar-free. Hard to reduce

> stress

> with small children at home but I've tried. I only got lyme last

> spring --

> misdiagnosed 'till October -- suppose that was long enough to make

> this

> very difficult to treat. I know of someone else who had it for over a

> year, went on IV Rocephin and recovered completely.

>

> I haven't taken Buhner's herbs yet [except for Resveratol] because the

> contraindications said not to take while taking blood thinners. On

> this

> IV, I give myself heparin flushes during the day --- when I do the

> infusion and there are times during the day when blood backs up

> into the

> tube and I need to flush it out again with heparin. So I'm waiting

> 'till

> off the treatment to do the cat's claw and the androphagis. Feeling

> discouraged today; this is hard sometimes.

>

> [ ] Herbs and/or antibiotics

>

> I disagree with the contention that long term antibiotic use

> destroys the

> immune system. I have been treated with many antibiotics over the past

> four years, both oral and IV. My immune system was in such a bad state

> that without the antibiotics, I could have never managed to come

> back from

> Lyme and the four co-infections I had.

>

> I have had no colds and only one virus in all of this time so as

> long as

> your doctor is supplementing your immune system with the proper

> supplementation, there is a decent chance that you will eventually be

> fine. I am also using Buhner's protocol along with some other herbs my

> doctor uses and for me, neither is a panacea. However I have come

> along

> way and I could have never come this far without the antibiotics.

>

> Just another perspective.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

- can you let us know what your history and abx treatment was.. what kind of

improvements you saw? Are you off abx now successfully and maintaining with

herbs? I'm struggling- after crashing big time on first pharmecuticals ( 1

week flagyl, diflucan- was fungal/treatment), I was functioning before but now

sicker/almost feel like dieting with all kinds of new neuro symptoms and totally

stopped sleeping ( 2 hrs /night with medication).. so now terrrified of abx

treatment. I also crashed 2 years ago on buhners herbs when ramping up ,but this

is worse/feel like dieing right now/totally nonfunctional now.

>

> I disagree with the contention that long term antibiotic use destroys the

immune system.  I have been treated with many antibiotics over the past four

years, both oral and IV.  My immune  system was in such a bad state that without

the antibiotics, I could have never managed to come back from Lyme and the four

co-infections I had. 

>

> I have had no colds and only one virus in all of this time so as long as your

doctor is supplementing your immune system with the proper supplementation,

there is a decent chance that you will eventually be fine.  I am also using

Buhner's protocol along with some other herbs my doctor uses and for me, neither

is a panacea.  However I have come along way and I could have never come this

far without the antibiotics.

>

> Just another perspective.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, I'm so glad you are doing better. It's very encouraging. Can you share

exactly what herbs you are taking?

[ ] Herbs and/or antibiotics

>

> I disagree with the contention that long term antibiotic use

> destroys the

> immune system. I have been treated with many antibiotics over the past

> four years, both oral and IV. My immune system was in such a bad state

> that without the antibiotics, I could have never managed to come

> back from

> Lyme and the four co-infections I had.

>

> I have had no colds and only one virus in all of this time so as

> long as

> your doctor is supplementing your immune system with the proper

> supplementation, there is a decent chance that you will eventually be

> fine. I am also using Buhner's protocol along with some other herbs my

> doctor uses and for me, neither is a panacea. However I have come

> along

> way and I could have never come this far without the antibiotics.

>

> Just another perspective.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear y093666,

The Diflucan treatement has been suggested by a german physician as a very

effective treatment against Borrelia. He, Dr. Schardt, claimed curing a lot of

people with this protocole. He suggested cycling bewteen :

i) Diflucan (fluconazole) 200mg : 20 to 50 days

ii) and then an abx, typically Biaxin (500mgx2 plus plaquenil 200x2)

In my French hospital they gave me the protocol. It is really effective in

eradicating borrelia, but you have to cycle a lot. After two years of that

treatment, I almost recover. Be sure that under Diflucan (fluconazole) I had

terrible herxheimer reactions. Unfortunatelly, during the summer I had a major

herx on diflucan, and then was put amoxy+griseofuline, which also an (old)

antifungal drug, and now biaxin+plaquenil, because too many bacteria were

released. My physician said that Diflucan had attacked a main reservoir of the

bactery. I'm to start again diflucan in few weeks. So, I think that if you react

so strong it is just because it's working. Honestly, at the beginning, I wasn't

able to have dose more than 50mg.

Here are two references:

the article :

http://www.neuroborreliose.net/veroeffentlichungenpublications/index.html

and the protocol :

http://www.neuroborreliose.net/informationen/therapievorschlaege/index.html

It's in german but you can translate with google.

Honestly, this is the best protocole I had, hard to tolerate. By far best than

cyclines and macrolides, even IV ceftriaxone. Moreover, fluconazole crosses the

brain blood barrier. I don't know what diflucan real does, but it does

something, I can ensure you.

Philippe

> >

> > I disagree with the contention that long term antibiotic use destroys the

immune system.  I have been treated with many antibiotics over the past four

years, both oral and IV.  My immune  system was in such a bad state that without

the antibiotics, I could have never managed to come back from Lyme and the four

co-infections I had. 

> >

> > I have had no colds and only one virus in all of this time so as long as

your doctor is supplementing your immune system with the proper supplementation,

there is a decent chance that you will eventually be fine.  I am also using

Buhner's protocol along with some other herbs my doctor uses and for me, neither

is a panacea.  However I have come along way and I could have never come this

far without the antibiotics.

> >

> > Just another perspective.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Sure:

Andrographis, sarsaparilla, cat's claw and Japanese knotweed.

The sarsaparilla is for mitigating the herx response. The others are

antibacterial, anti-spirochetal and

immune boosters.

Hope this helps.

On Jan 22, 2010, at 4:44 PM, Katenyc5@... wrote:

> , I'm so glad you are doing better. It's very encouraging.

> Can you share exactly what herbs you are taking?

>

> [ ] Herbs and/or antibiotics

> >

> > I disagree with the contention that long term antibiotic use

> > destroys the

> > immune system. I have been treated with many antibiotics over the

> past

> > four years, both oral and IV. My immune system was in such a bad

> state

> > that without the antibiotics, I could have never managed to come

> > back from

> > Lyme and the four co-infections I had.

> >

> > I have had no colds and only one virus in all of this time so as

> > long as

> > your doctor is supplementing your immune system with the proper

> > supplementation, there is a decent chance that you will

> eventually be

> > fine. I am also using Buhner's protocol along with some other

> herbs my

> > doctor uses and for me, neither is a panacea. However I have come

> > along

> > way and I could have never come this far without the antibiotics.

> >

> > Just another perspective.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I have opted not to take abx for Lyme although I did a 6 week protocol (called

the Jemsek protocol) for Babesia. It was very rough, combining 3 abx (Zithro,

Mepron, and Flagyl) plus artemesinin, causing major herxes.

I have been using colloidal silver (which I make with my own CS generator), and

started with Japanese knotweed (resveratrol) which I didn't tolerate well in the

GI tract (has anyone had this issue?). Yesterday I decided to try teasel.

I too suffer from low body temp. I heard a teleseminar on teasel by herbalist

Wood (you can hear the replay by going to www.lymehope.com, then

choosing Audio - there are two on the topic of teasel). said that

teasel warms the body and is thought to drive the spirochetes out of the tissues

and joints. This is similar I believe to the concept of rifing. I also have a

rife machine that I have been using since late November.

The body temp is an issue that probably needs to be addressed as part of

therapy. Some use far infrared saunas, some use steam (my temp goes up 3 to 4

degrees after 15 min in a hot steam bath although it doesn't stay up for long),

some take hot baths, and obviously exercise will raise temps. I've also read

about the Amethyst biomat which is suggested to sleep on to raise core body temp

although I haven't researched this yet.

I think the trick is to flush the bugs from their cozy hiding places and then

hit them with antibacterials. People using the Buhner herbs although I am

adding these slowly since I started with the CS and now just added the teasel.

I recently added grapefruit seed extract. An article recently circulated that

GSE doesn't really work but some people swear by it so it's worth a try.

I am glad to have found these groups because I can identify with people's

comments about their discouragement and the cyclical nature of hope and despair.

We at least understand and help each other in that regard!

By the way, I have seen a huge improvement in my energy level and brain fog. I

wish I knew for sure why. Could be the CS and rife, could be one of my many

supplements. I think it could be the acetyl-l-carnitine (1500 mg) and SAMe (I

think it's 400 mg) combination. Just thought I'd mention that in case people

want to try it.

deb

>

>

> HI, well I have been having challenges taking abx. I was on oral doxy for 2

months in the fall; relapsed during the 2nd month on it. Now I'm on IV Rocephin

for 6 weeks [10 days to go]. Was doing well but symptoms re-emerged again this

week. Feeling discouraged. My diet's been good; I've practically gone gluten

and processed sugar-free. Hard to reduce stress with small children at home but

I've tried. I only got lyme last spring -- misdiagnosed 'till October --

suppose that was long enough to make this very difficult to treat. I know of

someone else who had it for over a year, went on IV Rocephin and recovered

completely.

>

> I haven't taken Buhner's herbs yet [except for Resveratol] because the

contraindications said not to take while taking blood thinners. On this IV, I

give myself heparin flushes during the day --- when I do the infusion and there

are times during the day when blood backs up into the tube and I need to flush

it out again with heparin. So I'm waiting 'till off the treatment to do the

cat's claw and the androphagis. Feeling discouraged today; this is hard

sometimes.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [ ] Herbs and/or antibiotics

>

> I disagree with the contention that long term antibiotic use destroys the

immune system. I have been treated with many antibiotics over the past four

years, both oral and IV. My immune system was in such a bad state that without

the antibiotics, I could have never managed to come back from Lyme and the four

co-infections I had.

>

> I have had no colds and only one virus in all of this time so as long as your

doctor is supplementing your immune system with the proper supplementation,

there is a decent chance that you will eventually be fine. I am also using

Buhner's protocol along with some other herbs my doctor uses and for me, neither

is a panacea. However I have come along way and I could have never come this far

without the antibiotics.

>

> Just another perspective.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

A naturopath/nurse practitioner I recently saw about my healh who has lyme

herself prefers herbs/but does prescribe abx as well if necessary. She prefers

she said the " old " drugs and bicillin shots . She said she worries about where

people are 10 years down the road who have done extensive abx.... has anyone

seen any data on info on that? I hate the dark black hole lyme disease and

treatment is!

> >

> > My recall [i'd have to check the book to be sure] is that Buhner does not

say it is BEST to combine abx w/herbs, but that it is OK to.

> >

> > In my case, for example, I had long-time Lyme which was vanished with herbs

alone. Many people, myself included, consider abx to be " weapons of mass

destruction " -

>

> agree, but Buhner has repeatedly said that he thinks that chronic Lyme is very

difficult to eradicate, and because of that using ABX in addition to the herbs

may be necessary. If you can do it without ABX that is better obviously.

>

> I think it depends on how well one can tolerate ABX; some people have very

little trouble with longterm ABX use (maybe they have a better gut microflora or

something?). I don't tolerate ABX well apparently so haven't used them since

starting Buhner protocol.

>

[Guest guest]

-

Thanks for your sucess story! Did you have late stage lyme or neuro

lyme/symptoms? How long do you think you had lyme?

>

> > Hi Kate,

> >

> > I'm in the same boat as you, did the doxy, then the Rocephrin IV and

> > Bicillin shots, good diet, etc., took a break from the abx's and now I

> > feel worse. I am going to start doing salt/c or buhner, I wish I

> > had been

> > doing something all along in conjunction with the abx's. I think

> > you have

> > to be hitting them with something all along so when you stop the

> > abx's,

> > there's something there to still battle the lyme. Some people can put

> > lyme in remission with just abx's, and others like myself who have

> > lyme/coinfections, the abx's don't seem to work so easily.

> >

> > On Monday, I found that after taking a hot sauna and then a hot bath

> > w/epson salts, for 2 days I felt pretty good, today I feel all the

> > symptons coming back. I think heat has something to do w/it. My

> > temp is

> > always low now, usually in the 95.5 - 96 range/ cold fingers/cold

> > toes,

> > and I think the bugs like it cold. So heating them up seems to push

> > them

> > back a bit.

> >

> > I would get blood backing up in the iv line as well, I would let a

> > little

> > suction in and that caused the backup, clamp it quickly after you

> > clean

> > the line and don't pull back on the syringe, this creates suction.

> > Hopefully that'll help.

> >

> > Make sure you're taking a good probiotic throughout the day as well.

> >

> > All the best!

> >

> > From:

> > Katenyc5@...

> > To:

> >

> > Date:

> > 01/22/2010 02:03 PM

> > Subject:

> > Re: [ ] Herbs and/or antibiotics

> > Sent by:

> >

> >

> > HI, well I have been having challenges taking abx. I was on oral

> > doxy for

> > 2 months in the fall; relapsed during the 2nd month on it. Now I'm

> > on IV

> > Rocephin for 6 weeks [10 days to go]. Was doing well but symptoms

> > re-emerged again this week. Feeling discouraged. My diet's been

> > good; I've

> > practically gone gluten and processed sugar-free. Hard to reduce

> > stress

> > with small children at home but I've tried. I only got lyme last

> > spring --

> > misdiagnosed 'till October -- suppose that was long enough to make

> > this

> > very difficult to treat. I know of someone else who had it for over a

> > year, went on IV Rocephin and recovered completely.

> >

> > I haven't taken Buhner's herbs yet [except for Resveratol] because the

> > contraindications said not to take while taking blood thinners. On

> > this

> > IV, I give myself heparin flushes during the day --- when I do the

> > infusion and there are times during the day when blood backs up

> > into the

> > tube and I need to flush it out again with heparin. So I'm waiting

> > 'till

> > off the treatment to do the cat's claw and the androphagis. Feeling

> > discouraged today; this is hard sometimes.

> >

> > [ ] Herbs and/or antibiotics

> >

> > I disagree with the contention that long term antibiotic use

> > destroys the

> > immune system. I have been treated with many antibiotics over the past

> > four years, both oral and IV. My immune system was in such a bad state

> > that without the antibiotics, I could have never managed to come

> > back from

> > Lyme and the four co-infections I had.

> >

> > I have had no colds and only one virus in all of this time so as

> > long as

> > your doctor is supplementing your immune system with the proper

> > supplementation, there is a decent chance that you will eventually be

> > fine. I am also using Buhner's protocol along with some other herbs my

> > doctor uses and for me, neither is a panacea. However I have come

> > along

> > way and I could have never come this far without the antibiotics.

> >

> > Just another perspective.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

>

She said she worries about where people are 10 years down the road who have done

extensive abx.... has anyone seen any data on info on that? I hate the dark

black hole lyme disease and treatment is!

I don't know any reliable info on longterm ABX treatment results. The only

'broad' study (from Klempner) was seriously flawed and not worth the paper is

was written on.

ILADS docs often claim very high cure % for their patients, but reality is that

many Lymies go to other docs because apparently the treatment was NOT a success.

Several scientists have expressed their concern regarding potential problems

caused by longterm ABX treatment of this disease, e.g. in the Margulis article I

mentioned earlier. Just in case: Treponema pallidum is the spirochete that

causes syfilis, a disease that has many similarities with Lyme disease, although

the way it is transmitted is different.

" we caution that antibiotic treatment may be

effective only in the earliest stages of these spirochetoses.

Indeed antibiotics such as penicillin and its derivatives

induce round body formation and quiescence of symptoms

rather than cure. "

" Russian research and that by Brorson and

Brorson (2004) on spirochetal life histories lead us to think

that both the presentation and the course of syphilis, Lyme

disease and other spirochetoses are altered by penicillin,

other antibiotics and possibly by " anti-retroviral " or

" protease inhibitor " drugs. Far from eradicating syphilis, antibiotics are

driving the disease underground and increasing

the difficulty of detection. "

" Contrary to the statements on many official government

and medical websites that " syphilis is easily curable by

antibiotics " , the disease is often refractory to antibiotic and

other treatments except perhaps in very early immunoresponsive

stages (Musher et al., 1990). It has not been

adequately shown that T. pallidum infection in its

secondary and later stages is curable after any therapy. "

[Guest guest]

I have have read of this protocol before but know no one doing it or with

success in the US.

I stopped the Flagyl after 1 week at end of November and Diflucan on Dec 12-- I

then through in a lyme herbal decoction (stopped that Dec 24)h....but have

continued to spiral downward into hell- major neuro symptoms which are not

subsiding.....head jerking, tight neck, dizzy sick feeling in head constantly,

jerking all over,coordinatin, swallowing tight, speaking troubles at tmes.

balance , coordination, total insomnia from pressure in head and eyes hurting.

Pretty much a nightmare. Can someone wake me up?

I was functional before starting the flagyl/diflucan.. but now totally non

functional and taking LOA from my job (which is work at home primarily)...and

totally homebound -total hell for the type A person I am. Before I had

increasing brain fog, disrupted sleep, a little eye pain , and some jerking--but

was functional before. Now I feel like dieing!

I was DX's fibro in 1998 , optic neuritis in 2006, and then neuro symptoms

began.. but my crash's have been once while ramping up on buhner combined with

zhang and now this one which is far worse and scared I cannot come out of it.

I know I have to get sleeping.

How can this be a herx? I stopped the drugs Dec 12 and herbs the week after but

still feeling like I am dieing and in autoimmune category? Could these

drugs/herbs triggered an AI reaction/flare in addition to a 'herx'?

I tested negative for MS 2 years ago after herbal crash- but have not done any

recent tests. I now wonder if I need to go back and get re-tested. Feeling like

I have every symptom since this crash/

So far treatements have made me frightenly worse with an explosion of non

tolerable neuro symptoms. I am also chemically sensitive so wondering if that is

a contributor.

I was able to take cats claw, devils claw, sarsparilla past year w/o issue.

(could not take knotweed-increase in neur)

Does anyone have any thoughts? I'm not seeing any improvement.. so very scared

right now. Saw a naturpath and she wanted me to stop ALL supplements and try to

get sleeping-she prescribes trazadone. but that 's not working either and I

wonder if it could be contributing to neuro issues ( I know it didn't cause,

them because I had all the symptoms in crash before the trazadone a week ago).

Sorry to unload. I know we are all dealing with health challenges.

> > >

> > > I disagree with the contention that long term antibiotic use destroys the

immune system.  I have been treated with many antibiotics over the past four

years, both oral and IV.  My immune  system was in such a bad state that without

the antibiotics, I could have never managed to come back from Lyme and the four

co-infections I had. 

> > >

> > > I have had no colds and only one virus in all of this time so as long as

your doctor is supplementing your immune system with the proper supplementation,

there is a decent chance that you will eventually be fine.  I am also using

Buhner's protocol along with some other herbs my doctor uses and for me, neither

is a panacea.  However I have come along way and I could have never come this

far without the antibiotics.

> > >

> > > Just another perspective.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

>

> So far treatements have made me frightenly worse with an explosion of non

tolerable neuro symptoms. I am also chemically sensitive so wondering if that is

a contributor.

I think that unfortunately this is 'normal' for some of us. Bad detox mechanisms

(chemical sensitivity) or high pathogen load could be factors.

I felt pretty good after my first treatment with some few weeks of IV rocephin,

no strong herx reactions. However I'm now suspecting that good effect was mostly

influence of rocephin on glutamate metabolism in the brain (which can be

disturbed in Lyme). The Lyme symptoms reappeared quickly after stopping the IV

ABX.

After one additional year of oral ABX I felt generally worse than before ABX

treatment, probably from toxin overload. My worst experience was right after

taking flagyl, I ended up in the emergency room (MRI showing lots of small

'white spots' and big areas with bad blood flow in lower parts of the brain).

Some scientists think the bad blood flow (also seen frequently with MS) is

caused by the reaction in the brain to infection.

After I stopped ABX and started Buhner herbs, things gradually improved (but I'm

still far from fully recovered, and also not working).

If you haven't tried already I would suggest to increase detox by using products

like chlorella, glutathione, maybe questran (but for me the side effects sounded

too scary to try it).

[Guest guest]

Thank you Knotweed- yes I am chemically sensitive (which has gotten far worse

during this crash) and I do wonder if those of use who are chemically sensitive

can handle any abx protocol and many herbs/since we are so sensitive. Plus prior

to my FMS symptoms in 1998 I was having all kinds of allergies and the chemical

sensitivities. I spent a week in a toxic mobile trailer at a theme park/vacation

a couple of weeks before all my problems started.

My naturopath said I probably have detox/methylation issues and wanted to focus

on detox first. Right now I feel so bad neurologically and not functioning/not

improving- It makes me think well maybe I have to take abx to get out of

this-even though that's what put me here.

I do feel like the flagyl has fried my brain (and it was bad before the

flagyl!). Also wondering well maybe I do have AI issues and the some herbs/drugs

are causing flares/acclerating that?

It's all so confusing and scary/thx for your input.

> >

>

> > So far treatements have made me frightenly worse with an explosion of non

tolerable neuro symptoms. I am also chemically sensitive so wondering if that is

a contributor.

>

>

> I think that unfortunately this is 'normal' for some of us. Bad detox

mechanisms (chemical sensitivity) or high pathogen load could be factors.

>

> I felt pretty good after my first treatment with some few weeks of IV

rocephin, no strong herx reactions. However I'm now suspecting that good effect

was mostly influence of rocephin on glutamate metabolism in the brain (which can

be disturbed in Lyme). The Lyme symptoms reappeared quickly after stopping the

IV ABX.

>

> After one additional year of oral ABX I felt generally worse than before ABX

treatment, probably from toxin overload. My worst experience was right after

taking flagyl, I ended up in the emergency room (MRI showing lots of small

'white spots' and big areas with bad blood flow in lower parts of the brain).

Some scientists think the bad blood flow (also seen frequently with MS) is

caused by the reaction in the brain to infection.

>

> After I stopped ABX and started Buhner herbs, things gradually improved (but

I'm still far from fully recovered, and also not working).

>

> If you haven't tried already I would suggest to increase detox by using

products like chlorella, glutathione, maybe questran (but for me the side

effects sounded too scary to try it).

>

[Guest guest]

Can you give me a source for your quote? It's very interesting...

Thanks.

> >

> She said she worries about where people are 10 years down the road who have

done extensive abx.... has anyone seen any data on info on that? I hate the dark

black hole lyme disease and treatment is!

>

>

> I don't know any reliable info on longterm ABX treatment results. The only

'broad' study (from Klempner) was seriously flawed and not worth the paper is

was written on.

>

> ILADS docs often claim very high cure % for their patients, but reality is

that many Lymies go to other docs because apparently the treatment was NOT a

success.

>

> Several scientists have expressed their concern regarding potential problems

caused by longterm ABX treatment of this disease, e.g. in the Margulis article I

mentioned earlier. Just in case: Treponema pallidum is the spirochete that

causes syfilis, a disease that has many similarities with Lyme disease, although

the way it is transmitted is different.

>

> " we caution that antibiotic treatment may be

> effective only in the earliest stages of these spirochetoses.

> Indeed antibiotics such as penicillin and its derivatives

> induce round body formation and quiescence of symptoms

> rather than cure. "

>

> " Russian research and that by Brorson and

> Brorson (2004) on spirochetal life histories lead us to think

> that both the presentation and the course of syphilis, Lyme

> disease and other spirochetoses are altered by penicillin,

> other antibiotics and possibly by " anti-retroviral " or

> " protease inhibitor " drugs. Far from eradicating syphilis, antibiotics are

driving the disease underground and increasing

> the difficulty of detection. "

>

> " Contrary to the statements on many official government

> and medical websites that " syphilis is easily curable by

> antibiotics " , the disease is often refractory to antibiotic and

> other treatments except perhaps in very early immunoresponsive

> stages (Musher et al., 1990). It has not been

> adequately shown that T. pallidum infection in its

> secondary and later stages is curable after any therapy. "

>