Herx and liver enzymes

[Guest guest]

I've been wanting to respond for awhile. Received some info that might be

helpful.

I have accidentally overdone both the cat's claw and rifing/coiling at

different times. Same agonizing herx till the toxin level declined.

What I discovered is - over Rifed on Friday, within 2 days was herxing

badly, had a blood test the following Thursday which ended up showing high

liver enzymes.

Therefore ??? does the way you feel when you over kill - ie herxing -

related to high liver enzymes? In other words you feel like crap until the

liver detoxing you down to a tolerable level?

Is this true?

W.

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of knot_weed

Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 8:28 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Is " Herx " an over used term ?

> I am not trying to initiate a war or anything with this question, but

would genuinely like to hear specific (and scientific) input from others

regarding the actual mechanism for a true incidence of a herxheimer

reaction.

>

> I ultimately am concerned that a potentially over-used term may cause a

dumbing down of a well under-researched field of medicine, replaing good

science with easy answers from stressed-out and over worked lyme literate

Doctors.

you raise some good questions and others already provided good answers.

I'm a biochemist, and have asked myself some of the same questions. I don't

have definite answers either. I think the term 'herxheimer reaction' is

indeed used too easily in Lyme, because officially it is considered a

reaction in the blood to (excess) die-off of bacteria. I don't know if there

is any official definition, I don't think the wiki description that you

cited is authoritative.

I don't have a problem with using the word in the general sense for what

many Lymies experience, as it seems related to the classical 'herx' as

described for syphilis treatment. We just don't know what exactly is going

on. I had plenty of 'herxes' myself during my one year of antibiotics, and

very little when using Buhner (a few times during detox procedures).

As you probably know, in later stages of Lyme most of the spirochetes are in

the tissues and not in the blood or other body fluids. So, massive killing

of bacteria in the blood due to antibiotics is unlikely. Some of the

compartments where Bb hides are not easily accessible for the body fluids,

so it probably takes time for the ABX to do their work (if at all, all

animal tests shows that even after many months of high concentration ABX,

there are still live spirochetes present).

Just ask the people developing Bb PCR tests etc., the spiro numbers in body

fluids are relavitely small. Also, if there is massive die-off due to

antibiotics, it should probably stop within a few days. However, Lyme

patients experience that the herxes can continue for months, often changing

slightly every few days.

'Herx' reactions seem to vary depending on the ABX that are used; that could

be the result of differences in ABX sensitivity (which probably vary

strongly amoung Bb strains) but also due to side effects of the medication,

or indirect effects on the bugs (other than die-off).

We know that Bb causes reactions like cytokine storms (mostly in tissue

IMHO) that can cause (most of) these 'herx' feelings (a bit similar to

symptoms of the common flu). I imagine that killing Bb will increase this,

as part of the cytokine activation is due to contact of Bb antigens with our

cells / immune system. But I have never seen anything like that measured in

the blood of patients.

One of the problems with 'testing' is that the vast majority of the Bb genes

and proteins that they code for are unknown. Some of these might cause

severe symptoms, either when the Bb is active or when it dies and proteins

and other stuff are released. But I'm not aware of any Bb product that has

been proven to be very toxic (including the proposed Bbtox-1 gene found by

Sam Donta c.s., that seems similar to the dangerous botulinus toxin. AFAIK

no one has proven that this protein is really produced in vivo). On the

other side, I don't doubt some toxic products will be discovered once the

severe tunnel vision of the medical researchers clears.

At this stage, there is nothing definite that can be 'monitored' for

occurence during herx reactions. Even if we knew what to look for the

concentrations might be too small for current technology or never end up in

the blood stream at all (many nerve toxins have high affinity for

fat/lipids, you won't easily find them in blood etc.). Some bacterial toxins

have huge effects in extremely low quantities, it can have huge effects

without us being able to measure the cause.

I'm guessing that at this moment the best 'check' would be to perform daily

Bb PCR tests e.g. on urine during ABX treatment, and see if the measured

level of Bb DNA changes. This is too expensive for normal monitoring

nowadays, but would be interesting as a research product. I think there were

some studies, but it it difficult to interpret (e.g. often it is not clear

if the PCR test is detecting Bb DNA in intact bacteria, or just DNA

fragments from dead Bb's).

One thing that I noticed while in hospital is that many lymies had a

peculiar smell in their urine during the first severe herx reactions,

usually after starting IV ceftriaxon. The smell is very specific, a bit

'selenium-like', reminded me of the smell of certain rare lab bacteria. In

my case this started about a week before the ABX (so it is not a breakdown

product of the ABX) while I had severe meningitis; I had the impression that

my body was starting to fight the infection at that time.

I think this must be a die-off product. If I (and others) can smell it, I

guess it can be measured.

> It has been reported that Herheimer reactions only occur for a small

number of organisms, hasn't it ?....has this been studied ?

I don't think this has been systematically studied.

it is just a phenomenon that is obvious with a few infections.

> Why isn't everyone told to try do such things by their Doctors as part of

initiating a treatment protocol ?...especially if the Doctor's beleive so

much herxing is going on all of the time, and cuasing so many people so much

discomfort....or do they really beleive it all themselves ?

I think Buhner and others have some suggestions for lessening herx reactions

(whatever they are), e.g. Smilax is supposed to help.

> Why couldn't a " questionable " Lyme patient, or an otherwise sero-negative

achy person be given a blood test for certain endotoxin levels as follows:

> 1. control - before treatment begins.

> 2. test - during treatment

again, we don't know what to look for and the quantities are so small that

doing a Bb PCR (DNA) or some other established test is probably a better

idea.

> I know there are other sources of Lyme pain, but has anyone really

carefully broken down one sort of discomfort from the other ?

> It's would be awfully nice to know these things, so we could understand

what is really going on inside of our own bodies.

I don't think we know, and at the current stage of knowledge and technology

it is probably impossible to find out.

For sure, better knowledge starts with asking the right questions!

just for the record: I'm working on a recommendation (that goes to our

government later on) for better Lyme tests, and research that is needed. Any

suggestions welcome!

[Guest guest]

>

> I have accidentally overdone both the cat's claw and rifing/coiling at

> different times. Same agonizing herx till the toxin level declined.

>

> What I discovered is - over Rifed on Friday, within 2 days was herxing

> badly, had a blood test the following Thursday which ended up showing high

> liver enzymes.

did you have liver enzyme tests before, so you know for sure this developed

after the catsclaw/Rife 'overdose'? Lyme itself (while untreated) can probably

cause increased liver enzymes, maybe because the bugs cause some liver damage.

It is known that catsclaw can increase liver enzymes, but only after prolonged

use I guess. With the high dose that is recommending (about 8 grams per

day) an 'overdose' seems unlikely.

For rifing I have my doubts (if it can do anything at all). It would probably be

best to ask on a group specific to rifing if others have experienced increased

liver enzymes.

> Therefore ??? does the way you feel when you over kill - ie herxing -

> related to high liver enzymes? In other words you feel like crap until the

> liver detoxing you down to a tolerable level?

If your liver enzymes are really too high, you will feel like crap (like

something is very very wrong inside). I know from experience

I don't know why, probably because toxins are piling up in the blood as a result

of the liver not working properly.

I don't think the 'herx' reaction is related to liver enzymes, it is primarily

related to reactions of the innate immune system (like cytokine action) and

toxin release (which could get worse if the liver is stressed out). I'm sure you

can feel like crap from this but again, it does not have to be related to your

liver function.