Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Maybe a vaccination can come from research into properties in the deer that make them immune? Spoken like a true non-scientist. . . . On Mar 29, 2010, at 9:16 AM, KTOvrutsky@... wrote: > > The deer do not carry the infection, they are a source of a blood > meal for the deer ticks which can greatly increase their numbers. > But the ticks don't get infected from the deer, nor do the deer get > Lyme disease. Which is strange because horses get very sick from > Lyme. Rodents, birds, & lizards (in California) carry the > infectious organisms. The ticks get infected from these sources-- > and probably potentially other animals. Our best hope is scientific > research to get more accurate testing since so many of us go > undiagnosed or misdiagnosed for years. Once tick-borne infections > can be accurately diagnosed, then more money will flow into > research for better treatments and vaccines. > > [ ] Re:ecology & Lyme > > > The over population of deer in rural suburban New York & New > Jersey is a > disaster. In addition to contributing the proliferation of deer ticks, > they cause thousands of serious traffic accidents. > > > > I loved seeing the deer in our neighborhood but lived in fear of > hitting > one while driving. > > yes, traffic is an issue close to where I live. Or more > importantly, the > fact that the deer eat garden plants from some of the wealthy > people (you > have to be wealthy over here to live close to nature). > > the number of deer are pretty small, a few hundred; numbers > fluctuate but > are not really bigger compared to 50 or 100 years ago. But lately > they are > driven out from the small forest, because there is a huge increase in > mountain biking, horse riding and even people testing the 4WD's there. > > So the deer try to find more quiet places, and as a result they > sometimes > bump into unsuspecting car drivers. Many deer were killed, but no > human > casualties yet. > > This could be solved with some fences, telling the drivers to slow > down on > a few roads (just 10-20 km of small roads, at most), and most > importantly > keeping part of the forest reserved for the deer. But authorities > prefer to > have the deer shot > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Just think of the magnanimity of Jonas Salk who GAVE AWAY his vaccine. The privatization of information has made this world a less kind and livable place and made others stinking rich. . . On Mar 29, 2010, at 10:00 AM, knot_weed wrote: > > > > > > > Maybe a vaccination can come from research into properties in the > > deer that make them immune? Spoken like a true non-scientist. . . . > > that is a good suggestion, they tried this with the lizzards (the > idea is that they have some protection). But I haven't heard about > that, so probably it wasn't as simple as they hoped. > > I think deer carry the Bb infection, they just aren't very > vulnerable for it. > > Some scientists are working on vaccines for rodents; one IDSA- > associated guy has been working on this for many years, with > government money. Just imagine how much money you can make if your > vaccine is selected to vaccinate all the rodents in a big area! > Yummy!! I think this is a stupid idea ... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 I heard there were no Lyme ticks on Nantucket Island Mass. until they decided to import deer from the mainland to add to the bucolic atmosphere. Might just be a rumor. The over population of deer in rural suburban New York & New Jersey is a disaster. In addition to contributing the proliferation of deer ticks, they cause thousands of serious traffic accidents. I loved seeing the deer in our neighborhood but lived in fear of hitting one while driving. Re: [ ] Re: tick repellant nontoxic If you want a really fun read about how we manage to screw things up by intervening into ecosystems with the aim to solve a problem (such as infestation), read this classic article from the Rocky Mountain Institute: How Not to Parachute More Cats. On Mar 28, 2010, at 12:04 PM, knot_weed wrote: > > > > > > > We are so screwed-- meaning the human race. I always thought > since we > > have no > > more large predators, the micro organisms are going to reduce our > > numbers, and > > maybe we'll learn how to live in harmony with the Earth once again. > > yes, studies in some EU countries show that - contrary to what is > often said in US publications - having deer and other 'large > grazing animals' in the neigborhood will REDUCE the risk for humans > of getting bitten by a tick and getting lyme disease. If there are > no deer, sheep, cattle etc. the ticks will choose humans or their > pets. > > Shooting deer as a preventive measure against Lyme disease is only > effective in stricly isolated places like small islands. In most > situations it will make things worse, usually with a 2-3 year lag > though - so sometimes it seems to be effective the next year. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 why cant the gov give them food with advantix or something that will kill them without killing the animal , and it just does not make sense to eat venison isnt the infection in there blood and organs HMMMM , I seen a road kill of a bobcat in NH and I sat with it till it died it had a necklace 3 inches wide all around neck with ticks it looked like fish scales , so I am aware that other animals carry it but why cant they do this , esp, with small populations on islands . In a message dated 3/29/2010 7:39:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, KTOvrutsky@... writes: In Westchester County where I lived with my family for 13 years (and where I was infected) the deer population is about 25,000 v.s. humans 750,000. The only hunting allowed there is for about 6 weeks in the fall and only with high powered bows & arrows! Most people love the deer, some hate them for eating up everything in sight. We used to have to put netting around all the shrubs in front of the house from Nov. to May. I did love to watch them forage on our land, and a doe and her young would spend much of the winter there as well. And to catch sight of a stag is a thrilling sight. Nature is not the enemy. If I ever get enough energy again, I'll be out enjoying it--just taking extra precautions. [ ] Re:ecology & Lyme > The over population of deer in rural suburban New York & New Jersey is a disaster. In addition to contributing the proliferation of deer ticks, they cause thousands of serious traffic accidents. > > I loved seeing the deer in our neighborhood but lived in fear of hitting one while driving. yes, traffic is an issue close to where I live. Or more importantly, the fact that the deer eat garden plants from some of the wealthy people (you have to be wealthy over here to live close to nature). the number of deer are pretty small, a few hundred; numbers fluctuate but are not really bigger compared to 50 or 100 years ago. But lately they are driven out from the small forest, because there is a huge increase in mountain biking, horse riding and even people testing the 4WD's there. So the deer try to find more quiet places, and as a result they sometimes bump into unsuspecting car drivers. Many deer were killed, but no human casualties yet. This could be solved with some fences, telling the drivers to slow down on a few roads (just 10-20 km of small roads, at most), and most importantly keeping part of the forest reserved for the deer. But authorities prefer to have the deer shot [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 I wasn't advocating eating the meat after treatment , but I was not aware that deer are just hosts , what I dont understand is what about the other infective organisms can they be passed to them , it has to be in the blood somewhere ?? I am a vegitarian too used to be macrobiotic for ten years , but now do dairy again , also have organic gardens In a message dated 3/29/2010 9:50:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tek0nik@... writes: --- In _ @Lyme_Aid_BuhLym_ (mailto: ) , lizzianthus007@, lizz > > why cant the gov give them food with advantix or something that will kill > them without killing the animal , and it just does not make sense to eat > venison isnt the infection in there blood and organs HMMMM , I don't think it is safe to eat the animal meat when they are giving toxins to get rid of the ticks; you would need high dose for that, I don't think that would be safe for humans as none of these toxins are 100% selective. And the ticks would simply choose another host, it will not really reduce Lyme disease risk. In my area dead deer are usually covered with hundreds of ticks, so it is easy to see why there are blamed for Lyme disease. I think it is safe to eat the meat though, if it is prepared correctly 9I'm mostly vegetarian, so don't worry about it anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 > > I heard there were no Lyme ticks on Nantucket Island Mass. until they decided to import deer from the mainland to add to the bucolic atmosphere. Might just be a rumor. not likely, but who knows; small islands are a special case. But normally ticks would get there with rodents that can swim to the island and always carry ticks. > The over population of deer in rural suburban New York & New Jersey is a disaster. In addition to contributing the proliferation of deer ticks, they cause thousands of serious traffic accidents. > > I loved seeing the deer in our neighborhood but lived in fear of hitting one while driving. yes, traffic is an issue close to where I live. Or more importantly, the fact that the deer eat garden plants from some of the wealthy people (you have to be wealthy over here to live close to nature). the number of deer are pretty small, a few hundred; numbers fluctuate but are not really bigger compared to 50 or 100 years ago. But lately they are driven out from the small forest, because there is a huge increase in mountain biking, horse riding and even people testing the 4WD's there. So the deer try to find more quiet places, and as a result they sometimes bump into unsuspecting car drivers. Many deer were killed, but no human casualties yet. This could be solved with some fences, telling the drivers to slow down on a few roads (just 10-20 km of small roads, at most), and most importantly keeping part of the forest reserved for the deer. But authorities prefer to have the deer shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 In Westchester County where I lived with my family for 13 years (and where I was infected) the deer population is about 25,000 v.s. humans 750,000. The only hunting allowed there is for about 6 weeks in the fall and only with high powered bows & arrows! Most people love the deer, some hate them for eating up everything in sight. We used to have to put netting around all the shrubs in front of the house from Nov. to May. I did love to watch them forage on our land, and a doe and her young would spend much of the winter there as well. And to catch sight of a stag is a thrilling sight. Nature is not the enemy. If I ever get enough energy again, I'll be out enjoying it--just taking extra precautions. [ ] Re:ecology & Lyme > The over population of deer in rural suburban New York & New Jersey is a disaster. In addition to contributing the proliferation of deer ticks, they cause thousands of serious traffic accidents. > > I loved seeing the deer in our neighborhood but lived in fear of hitting one while driving. yes, traffic is an issue close to where I live. Or more importantly, the fact that the deer eat garden plants from some of the wealthy people (you have to be wealthy over here to live close to nature). the number of deer are pretty small, a few hundred; numbers fluctuate but are not really bigger compared to 50 or 100 years ago. But lately they are driven out from the small forest, because there is a huge increase in mountain biking, horse riding and even people testing the 4WD's there. So the deer try to find more quiet places, and as a result they sometimes bump into unsuspecting car drivers. Many deer were killed, but no human casualties yet. This could be solved with some fences, telling the drivers to slow down on a few roads (just 10-20 km of small roads, at most), and most importantly keeping part of the forest reserved for the deer. But authorities prefer to have the deer shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 The deer do not carry the infection, they are a source of a blood meal for the deer ticks which can greatly increase their numbers. But the ticks don't get infected from the deer, nor do the deer get Lyme disease. Which is strange because horses get very sick from Lyme. Rodents, birds, & lizards (in California) carry the infectious organisms. The ticks get infected from these sources--and probably potentially other animals. Our best hope is scientific research to get more accurate testing since so many of us go undiagnosed or misdiagnosed for years. Once tick-borne infections can be accurately diagnosed, then more money will flow into research for better treatments and vaccines. [ ] Re:ecology & Lyme > The over population of deer in rural suburban New York & New Jersey is a disaster. In addition to contributing the proliferation of deer ticks, they cause thousands of serious traffic accidents. > > I loved seeing the deer in our neighborhood but lived in fear of hitting one while driving. yes, traffic is an issue close to where I live. Or more importantly, the fact that the deer eat garden plants from some of the wealthy people (you have to be wealthy over here to live close to nature). the number of deer are pretty small, a few hundred; numbers fluctuate but are not really bigger compared to 50 or 100 years ago. But lately they are driven out from the small forest, because there is a huge increase in mountain biking, horse riding and even people testing the 4WD's there. So the deer try to find more quiet places, and as a result they sometimes bump into unsuspecting car drivers. Many deer were killed, but no human casualties yet. This could be solved with some fences, telling the drivers to slow down on a few roads (just 10-20 km of small roads, at most), and most importantly keeping part of the forest reserved for the deer. But authorities prefer to have the deer shot [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 > > > The only hunting allowed there is for about 6 weeks in the fall and only with high powered bows & arrows! wow ... I don't think any of our hunters would be interested in hunting that way. It's mostly wealthy people (medics etc., a few farmers) who shoot wildlife. They use rifles, and sometimes (not legal ...) machine guns, plus car headlights to blind the wildlife. Of course, our 'nature' is nothing compared to that in the US, it is small patches of forest, maybe 20 sq miles at most. The deer do not have the slightest chance against the hunters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 > > why cant the gov give them food with advantix or something that will kill > them without killing the animal , and it just does not make sense to eat > venison isnt the infection in there blood and organs HMMMM , I don't think it is safe to eat the animal meat when they are giving toxins to get rid of the ticks; you would need high dose for that, I don't think that would be safe for humans as none of these toxins are 100% selective. And the ticks would simply choose another host, it will not really reduce Lyme disease risk. In my area dead deer are usually covered with hundreds of ticks, so it is easy to see why there are blamed for Lyme disease. I think it is safe to eat the meat though, if it is prepared correctly 9I'm mostly vegetarian, so don't worry about it anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 > > > The deer do not carry the infection, they are a source of a blood meal for the deer ticks which can greatly increase their numbers. But the ticks don't get infected from the deer, nor do the deer get Lyme disease. are you sure the ticks cannot be infected from the deer? You are correct the deer don't get sick (at least not like humans) but I think the Borrelia spread in their blood anyway after tick byte (not sure though ...). So they can spread to other ticks, if they are not infected yet. > Which is strange because horses get very sick from Lyme. Rodents, birds, & lizards (in California) carry the infectious organisms. rodents don't get really sick either. All the lyme studies with mice etc. are done with inbred strains that easily develop arthritic problems, have weak immune systems etc. Only rhesus monkeys get LD like humans do (well, maybe they do because they first of all get severely stressed from being in a cage ...). > The ticks get infected from these sources--and probably potentially other animals. yes, they (usually rodents) are the main reservoir. Most infections happen in the larva/nymph stage when they feed on small animals. But there are probably things we don't know, e.g. mosquitos also carry large numbers or Borreliae, that wouldn't happen if it didn't have a function. So the disease is probably spread in other ways as well. > Our best hope is scientific research to get more accurate testing since so many of us go undiagnosed or misdiagnosed for years. Once tick-borne infections can be accurately diagnosed, then more money will flow into research for better treatments and vaccines. yes, I'm trying to improve this in my country. It is a long process, and up to now (like in the US) the medical and scientific authorities are suggesting that there is no real problem, that testing is fine etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 > > Maybe a vaccination can come from research into properties in the > deer that make them immune? Spoken like a true non-scientist. . . . that is a good suggestion, they tried this with the lizzards (the idea is that they have some protection). But I haven't heard about that, so probably it wasn't as simple as they hoped. I think deer carry the Bb infection, they just aren't very vulnerable for it. Some scientists are working on vaccines for rodents; one IDSA-associated guy has been working on this for many years, with government money. Just imagine how much money you can make if your vaccine is selected to vaccinate all the rodents in a big area! Yummy!! I think this is a stupid idea ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 > > what I dont understand is what about the other > infective organisms can they be passed to them , it has to be in the blood > somewhere ?? These parasites are in the tissues, some mostly in the blood. not all of them are dangerous for humans, but eating raw meet (or blood) is very dangerous for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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