Re: New in here.request for help-

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi everybody,

> I am new in here. My name is and I come from Prague, Czech Republic.

Hi from the Netherlands,

> Right now I am searching on how to continue but I do not want to return back

to quinolones now and would like to try herbs. I was thinking on Buhner protocol

of chinese medicine of Dr. Zhang.

From what I remember, dr. Bozsik was treating patients with a combination of

Samento (catsclaw) and Rooibos tea some years ago, claiming huge success. Just

wondering ... did he switch completely to ABX treatment?

From what I know, Zhang protocol is far more expensive than Buhner and my

impression is that it is generally less effective (but maybe has more options

for finetuning).

> I would love to ask what is your experinces with BUhner protocol and how

effective it is and how strong JHR are on it.

> I would be greateful for any advice.

I was infected in 2004 and used IV and oral ABX for about a year in 2006/2007.

Had to stop ABX treatment because of liver damage, gut problems, gall stones.

After that I switched to a gluten free diet and Buhner herbs, and generally had

more improvement than in the previous year of ABX treatment.

I had very little herx reactions on Buhner protocol (maybe because the earlier

ABX removed most of the spirochetes?). Some of the Buhner herbs should make herx

reactions less severe. And with the ABX, you never know if these were 'herx

reactinos' or just bad side effects from the ABX. Make sure you use some kind of

detox (e.g. chlorella, but there are other options).

I stopped taking most of the Buhner herbs last year because I don't see much

benefit nowadays. My condition is more stable now, but certainly not 'cured'. I

don't know anyone who has been fully cured from chronic Lyme (either with ABX or

herbs), but I know a few who went back to fully working after some bad years. If

you have been ill for over 1-2 years before starting treatment, the chance of

full recovery seems to be very small. If you treated within about one year of

being infected, your prognosis is much better.

[Guest guest]

HI, thanks for your mail, althought not very positive. I do not know if Bela

Bozsik ver used samento and rooibos for treating lyme, its propably someone else

then this doctor

http://www.lyme.no/25-years-of-experience-with-lyme-borreliosis.

So youthink nothing can completely cure anybody? There are actually many people

who claim that were cured or at least they are in such a state that does ot

limit them at all in their daily life. At least that would be success...

Well,I remember clearly the tick which I think infected me,it was 2006 or 2007,

i had very minor problem and I would never thought it was lyme. I just thought I

work too much, just did not pay any attention to it untill 2009 when I had

terrible " flue'', left to India and when I reurned I had cosntant headache for 3

months without any effect of painkiller to it. Anyway...local doctors just had

no clue, thought its some exotic disease but then they decided I was just

pretending and I was depressed.

Anyway, now I am thinking to start BUhner ptotcol but was thinking on Zhangs too

as Schaller claims that its the only effective protcol against bartonella. DO

you know if there is any web page where I can buy all BUhner protcol herbs all

together?

You are right that its sometimes hard to distinguish what is side effect or what

is herx especially with fluoroquinolones. I have stopped it some 4 dayts ago and

now I am having flue like symptoms, terrible pain in joints,muscles, tinitus and

just feel terrible in general so am just able to stay in bed, nothing else.

Of course I do detox with comples of mushrooms, flavonoids, chlorella and

charcoal, but not much effect...

Anyway, thanks for your experience. I can hardly accept the fact that I will

remain in this state for long time...

M

[Guest guest]

Good luck to you and a wish for a return to health. I think since

antibiotics were not tolerable for you, maybe why not try Buhner's herb

protocol? Your body will tell you if it is right for you. Also, you might

consider using a rife machine if herbs are not the thing. I believe the

technology is readily available in Europe. My Mom has lyme but has not stayed

with anything long enough to make a difference so I don't have any personal

information to share. Best of luck and don't give up till you are well!

>

> Hi everybody,

> I am new in here. My name is and I come from Prague, Czech Republic. I

am not going to describe all the story which started in 2007 and I believe you

all can imagine visiting tens of doctors, being told all was in my mind,

prescribed AD and so on adn so on. Finally I was diagnosed lyme disease and

bartonella and babesia coinfections by Dr. BEla P. Bozsik in HUngary in

September 2010 when I was not able to function anymore. I underwent 8 weeks

treatment with his protocol based on 1000mg of cipro, 250 mg of minocyclin and

1500 of Tinidazol/or 2x200 plaquenyl. After 6th weeks I had terrible reactions

which I was not able to finish due to very heavy worsening the state and I ended

by 7 and half week. Right now I am searching on how to continue but I do not

want to return back to quinolones now and would like to try herbs. I was

thinking on Buhner protocol of chinese medicine of Dr. Zhang.

> I would love to ask what is your experinces with BUhner protocol and how

effective it is and how strong JHR are on it.

> I would be greateful for any advice.

> Thanks.

>

>

[Guest guest]

most propably I will try it, just need to figure out where to order all the

herbs. Is there a single address where they sell all necessary herbs? Anybdy

knows?

I also want to discuss all with my TCM specialist who can be helpful too. I just

wonder if anyone completely recovered from lyme and coinfections as Buhner says

in his book that they have 95% success in the treatment.

I am just searching for possibilities. Despite I finished ATB 4 days ago, I had

very strong flue like symptoms today, terrible pain all over the body, pain of

the heart and anxiety...

Hope all will calm down at least a little so that I can exist normally, or at

least like before treatment.

Thanks to all for any comments...

[Guest guest]

Detox takes years sally forth. Lymeover see my posts on

lyme_rife

Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T

Re: [ ] Re: New in here.request for help-

HI, thanks for your mail, althought not very positive. I do not know if Bela

Bozsik ver used samento and rooibos for treating lyme, its propably someone else

then this doctor

http://www.lyme.no/25-years-of-experience-with-lyme-borreliosis.

So youthink nothing can completely cure anybody? There are actually many people

who claim that were cured or at least they are in such a state that does ot

limit them at all in their daily life. At least that would be success...

Well,I remember clearly the tick which I think infected me,it was 2006 or 2007,

i had very minor problem and I would never thought it was lyme. I just thought I

work too much, just did not pay any attention to it untill 2009 when I had

terrible " flue'', left to India and when I reurned I had cosntant headache for 3

months without any effect of painkiller to it. Anyway...local doctors just had

no clue, thought its some exotic disease but then they decided I was just

pretending and I was depressed.

Anyway, now I am thinking to start BUhner ptotcol but was thinking on Zhangs too

as Schaller claims that its the only effective protcol against bartonella. DO

you know if there is any web page where I can buy all BUhner protcol herbs all

together?

You are right that its sometimes hard to distinguish what is side effect or what

is herx especially with fluoroquinolones. I have stopped it some 4 dayts ago and

now I am having flue like symptoms, terrible pain in joints,muscles, tinitus and

just feel terrible in general so am just able to stay in bed, nothing else.

Of course I do detox with comples of mushrooms, flavonoids, chlorella and

charcoal, but not much effect...

Anyway, thanks for your experience. I can hardly accept the fact that I will

remain in this state for long time...

M

[Guest guest]

>

> HI, thanks for your mail, althought not very positive. I do not know if Bela

> Bozsik ver used samento and rooibos for treating lyme, its propably someone

else

> then this doctor

> http://www.lyme.no/25-years-of-experience-with-lyme-borreliosis.

I'm pretty sure, but it's some years ago that I heard this. From what I remember

he had a private clinic that was visited by many patients from other countries

as well.

> So youthink nothing can completely cure anybody? There are actually many

people

> who claim that were cured or at least they are in such a state that does ot

> limit them at all in their daily life. At least that would be success...

depends on how you define 'cure'. I think you cannot fully eradicate Borrelia,

once it has established itself in the body. But you can probably regain some

fragile equilibrium.

I have heard many times of people who thought they were cured, and after a few

years or so they fell back (usually as a result of an episode of stress, other

disease etc.), and had to start treatment again.

> Anyway, now I am thinking to start BUhner ptotcol but was thinking on Zhangs

too

> as Schaller claims that its the only effective protcol against bartonella.

I have my reservations about Schaller, after some things that I read. Like many

LLMD's, he seems to have too much commercial interest in the story that he is

'selling' to patients. If you are sure you have Bartonella then you probably

have to treat the Bart first.

> Do you know if there is any web page where I can buy all BUhner protcol herbs

all

> together?

you can check the Planet Health pages for recommended sources for the herbs. I

have mostly used bulk herbs from 1st Chinese Herbs; they have everything and

have excellent service/advice. But if you prefer ready made pills there are

sometimes cheaper suppliers (especially for small shipments to Europe).

http://www.1stchineseherbs.com/lyme_disease.html

I don't think any of the protocols provides a guarantee for recovery. For many

Buhner works well, for some it does not work at all or very little - in such a

case one should try another protocol. Maybe it depends on the Bb strain, the

coinfections, personal genetics and disease history etc.

> Anyway, thanks for your experience. I can hardly accept the fact that I will

> remain in this state for long time...

I didn't say that ... you can improve, maybe get 50 or 75% better. But that is

something else than full cure.

It often takes a lot of time to see improvement, that makes it difficult to say

what was causing the 'cure'. Some symptoms will probably decrease over time

whatever you do, you just have to wait long enough for it to happen ...

[Guest guest]

knot_weed <tek0nik@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>>

>> Hi everybody,

>> I am new in here. My name is and I come from Prague, Czech Republic.

>

>Hi from the Netherlands,

>

>> Right now I am searching on how to continue but I do not want to return back

to quinolones now and would like to try herbs. I was thinking on Buhner protocol

of chinese medicine of Dr. Zhang.

>

>From what I remember, dr. Bozsik was treating patients with a combination of

Samento (catsclaw) and Rooibos tea some years ago, claiming huge success. Just

wondering ... did he switch completely to ABX treatment?

>

>From what I know, Zhang protocol is far more expensive than Buhner and my

impression is that it is generally less effective (but maybe has more options

for finetuning).

>

>

>> I would love to ask what is your experinces with BUhner protocol and how

effective it is and how strong JHR are on it.

>> I would be greateful for any advice.

>

>I was infected in 2004 and used IV and oral ABX for about a year in 2006/2007.

Had to stop ABX treatment because of liver damage, gut problems, gall stones.

After that I switched to a gluten free diet and Buhner herbs, and generally had

more improvement than in the previous year of ABX treatment.

>

>I had very little herx reactions on Buhner protocol (maybe because the earlier

ABX removed most of the spirochetes?). Some of the Buhner herbs should make herx

reactions less severe. And with the ABX, you never know if these were 'herx

reactinos' or just bad side effects from the ABX. Make sure you use some kind of

detox (e.g. chlorella, but there are other options).

>

>I stopped taking most of the Buhner herbs last year because I don't see much

benefit nowadays. My condition is more stable now, but certainly not 'cured'. I

don't know anyone who has been fully cured from chronic Lyme (either with ABX or

herbs), but I know a few who went back to fully working after some bad years. If

you have been ill for over 1-2 years before starting treatment, the chance of

full recovery seems to be very small. If you treated within about one year of

being infected, your prognosis is much better.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

martin spimr <spimar75@...> wrote:

>HI, thanks for your mail, althought not very positive. I do not know if Bela

>Bozsik ver used samento and rooibos for treating lyme, its propably someone

else

>then this doctor

>http://www.lyme.no/25-years-of-experience-with-lyme-borreliosis.

>So youthink nothing can completely cure anybody? There are actually many people

>who claim that were cured or at least they are in such a state that does ot

>limit them at all in their daily life. At least that would be success...

>Well,I remember clearly the tick which I think infected me,it was 2006 or 2007,

>i had very minor problem and I would never thought it was lyme. I just thought

I

>work too much, just did not pay any attention to it untill 2009 when I had

>terrible " flue'', left to India and when I reurned I had cosntant headache for

3

>months without any effect of painkiller to it. Anyway...local doctors just had

>no clue, thought its some exotic disease but then they decided I was just

>pretending and I was depressed.

>

>Anyway, now I am thinking to start BUhner ptotcol but was thinking on Zhangs

too

>as Schaller claims that its the only effective protcol against bartonella. DO

>you know if there is any web page where I can buy all BUhner protcol herbs all

>together?

>You are right that its sometimes hard to distinguish what is side effect or

what

>is herx especially with fluoroquinolones. I have stopped it some 4 dayts ago

and

>now I am having flue like symptoms, terrible pain in joints,muscles, tinitus

and

>just feel terrible in general so am just able to stay in bed, nothing else.

>Of course I do detox with comples of mushrooms, flavonoids, chlorella and

>charcoal, but not much effect...

>Anyway, thanks for your experience. I can hardly accept the fact that I will

>remain in this state for long time...

>M

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Many VERY ill folks have become 85%+ functional!!

Jazzman

Re: [ ] Re: New in here.request for help-

martin spimr <spimar75@...> wrote:

>HI, thanks for your mail, althought not very positive. I do not know if Bela

>Bozsik ver used samento and rooibos for treating lyme, its propably someone

else

>then this doctor

>http://www.lyme.no/25-years-of-experience-with-lyme-borreliosis.

>So youthink nothing can completely cure anybody? There are actually many people

>who claim that were cured or at least they are in such a state that does ot

>limit them at all in their daily life. At least that would be success...

>Well,I remember clearly the tick which I think infected me,it was 2006 or 2007,

>i had very minor problem and I would never thought it was lyme. I just thought

I

>work too much, just did not pay any attention to it untill 2009 when I had

>terrible " flue'', left to India and when I reurned I had cosntant headache for

3

>months without any effect of painkiller to it. Anyway...local doctors just had

>no clue, thought its some exotic disease but then they decided I was just

>pretending and I was depressed.

>

>Anyway, now I am thinking to start BUhner ptotcol but was thinking on Zhangs

too

>as Schaller claims that its the only effective protcol against bartonella. DO

>you know if there is any web page where I can buy all BUhner protcol herbs all

>together?

>You are right that its sometimes hard to distinguish what is side effect or

what

>is herx especially with fluoroquinolones. I have stopped it some 4 dayts ago

and

>now I am having flue like symptoms, terrible pain in joints,muscles, tinitus

and

>just feel terrible in general so am just able to stay in bed, nothing else.

>Of course I do detox with comples of mushrooms, flavonoids, chlorella and

>charcoal, but not much effect...

>Anyway, thanks for your experience. I can hardly accept the fact that I will

>remain in this state for long time...

>M

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

you are right, he was founder of some clinic in BUdapest, or lab. It still works

but I was at his private house. he is retired already and time to time accepts

people.

I know you can not 100% cure or eradicate bugs but thatstate of equilibrium is

important. MAny peole live with lyme and the symptoms never progress. I think

this state is possible to achive.

I was also doubtful about Schaller althought he seems to know a lot about

bartonella.

I know about my bartonella from BElla Bozsik, he did hids Dual dur dark field

Microscope and I have video from it where he indicated bart and babesia.

The protocol which I used was cipro and mino, which is believe to be effective

against bartonella too, But hard to say what was hit by ATB. I just feel worse

then before I started actually but Dr. Bozsik said that clinical improvement

comes sometimes after 2-4 months with his protocol. HE said that herx can come

even after 10-20 days after the end of cure.

But BUhner does not say that you should treat bartonela first, he says to fight

all agents together...

How di you use the bulk herbs?

I che & #269;cked 1st chinese herbs lready, they seem fine but do you know any

european suppliers. At least it will be easier for me as it will not have to go

through customs. I am 100% sure it will be stopped at customs when it will come

from US, especially bulk herbs.

I agree with you that no protocol is guaranteed for everybody. I knw I have

afzelii and garinii strains od borelia and have it maybe for couple of years. I

have had ticks since I was child as most of people in Czech as we have cottages

in forests as weekend houses.

I know it can take tome to see imrpovement but sometimes one feels very down and

hopes improvement comes soon. Its so tiring and frustrating to use the

treatment, become worse, herxing as mad and the effect somewhere behind the

horizon.

m

[Guest guest]

I hope so. 85% will be very good. Now i am at 25...

[Guest guest]

>

> as Buhner says in his book that they have 95% success in the treatment.

success in this case is 'improvement', NOT cure. Read what he has said about

this on the Planet Health pages and elsewhere. The 5% with no success are people

who do worse on the protocol. Even someone who sees a very small benefit is

counted as 'success'. I don't object to that because if you are very ill, every

small improvement is good.

I have read elsewhere that about 25% are supposed to be cured completely with

Buhner protocol (my guess is that most of these are people who were ill for

shorter period, and probably a significant group who did not have Borrelia

infection at all), about 50% show good improvement but no full cure (e.g. have

to stay on the protocol) and about 25% have little or no improvement or adverse

outcome.

These success numbers are similar to those from many other treatments (e.g.

ABX).

Only a few alternative treatments claim close to 100% cure rate (for those who

believe in magic, IMHO). E.g. in my country bioresonance practitioners (a bit

similar to Rife in the US) claim 100% cure rate from Lyme. Despite this claim, I

haven't been able to find ONE example of someone with proven Borrelia infection

who was fully cured with this treatment. Often it works like this: the patient

gets ten very expensive sessions, and if they don't return after that they are

assumed to be 100% cured. It's that easy ...

P.S.: I know that a large chunk of the 'ABX cure for Lyme' stories are similar,

the docs use the standard treatment and never check the condition of their

patients in 1, 2, 5 years. And if they still have problems after a year, it

cannot be Lyme - by definition. Even a lot of the official medical research

works like that.

> Hope all will calm down at least a little so that I can exist normally, or at

least like before treatment.

Don't get me wrong. You CAN improve a lot, things can calm down. But if you have

been ill for 1-2 years (in your case this is not too obvious to me, as most of

your earlier symptoms are not necessarily due to Bb or Bart) getting back to

your condition before you got infected is a stretch. If only because treatments

tend to take years, and during these treatments you age, which statistically

introduces new problems.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I hope so. 85% will be very good. Now i am at 25...

Your age should work to your advantage. From what I know, for children full cure

from Lyme is far more common than for older people. Maybe because they have a

stronger immune system, or maybe because some of the Bb damage is (epi)genetic

and needs to be 'cured' by the bodies stem cells.

[Guest guest]

you maybe right in many things.

I am 36 years old now and I am sure that I have been ill since 2007 but that

time I had minor problems only but very specific to bart or lyme, painful soles,

especially in the morning, profound fatigue, sleep disorders and so on.

I was thinking to try zapper too but am a bit sceptical to all these special

machines.

Anyway, I think its important to try all ways to find what works best.

[Guest guest]

>

> I know you can not 100% cure or eradicate bugs but thatstate of equilibrium is

important. MAny peole live with lyme and the symptoms never progress. I think

this state is possible to achive.

yes, that is what you can aim for.

> But BUhner does not say that you should treat bartonela first, he says to

fight all agents together...

I think this is because the Buhner protocol does not try to eradicate the bugs.

BP tries to strengthen the body, repair the damage (and probably keep the bugs

quiet, more friendly).

> How di you use the bulk herbs?

I make my own pills, using gelatin capsules and a digital scale to check the

amount. Others just make a small slurry of the various herbs that they swallow,

or put in their smoothy or yoghurt (you need something with some fat in it,

otherwise the herbs will not mix).

> I am 100% sure it will be stopped at customs when it will come from US,

especially bulk herbs.

don't know about your country, but I guess it is the same as over here: as long

as it is below 4 pounds, customs does not check. If it is over 3-4 pounds they

can check and this can cause over a month delay (maybe longer for you).

The only thing I'm not sure of is what happens after April 1st. Some people say

thay due to new EU regulations, importing herbs will become impossible. Anybody

who knows for sure? Just in case, hurry to get the shipment in before end of

March, still possible if you order this week ;(

There are some suppliers in the EU, e.g. these companies in Netherlands/Belgium.

A few people on the forum have experience with them, but I have never used them

(only in Dutch I'm afraid):

http://www.kruidenpakhuis.nl/index1.html

http://www.gekruid.be/geneeskrachtig/

> I agree with you that no protocol is guaranteed for everybody. I knw I have

afzelii and garinii strains od borelia and have it maybe for couple of years. I

have had ticks since I was child as most of people in Czech as we have cottages

in forests as weekend houses.

yes, Czech country is a known Lyme hotspot. Multiple strains is a risk factor

(usually more ill and more difficult to get better).

> I know it can take tome to see imrpovement but sometimes one feels very down

and hopes improvement comes soon. Its so tiring and frustrating to use the

treatment, become worse, herxing as mad and the effect somewhere behind the

horizon.

yes, you have to get worse before you can get better ;(

I used Flagyl (among other things) and thought I was dying, ended up in the ER

room. Now I know why flagyl is nicknamed 'the Gates of Hell'.

[Guest guest]

> But BUhner does not say that you should treat bartonela first, he says to

fight

>all agents together...

-I think this is because the Buhner protocol does not try to eradicate the bugs.

BP tries to strengthen the body, repair the damage (and probably keep the bugs

quiet, more friendly).

I do not think so, he very often mentions in his book, that herbs are

antibacterial and so on, I think he tries to eradicate, but more slowly...

The only thing I'm not sure of is what happens after April 1st. Some people say

thay due to new EU regulations, importing herbs will become impossible. Anybody

who knows for sure? Just in case, hurry to get the shipment in before end of

March, still possible if you order this week ;(

-Well, that maybe a problem, I wil try to order it now otherwise I am not sure

what will happen after 1st. That regulation is silly (like many other EU

regulations)

There are some suppliers in the EU, e.g. these companies in Netherlands/Belgium.

A few people on the forum have experience with them, but I have never used them

(only in Dutch I'm afraid):

http://www.kruidenpakhuis.nl/index1.html

http://www.gekruid.be/geneeskrachtig/

-may try in case that it will be impossible to receive herbs from US. but dutch

will be a problem :-)

yes, you have to get worse before you can get better ;(

..thats the hardest. to face all this worsening with possible hope it will

help...but we have to try to fight it...otherwise there is no hope ...

I used Flagyl (among other things) and thought I was dying, ended up in the ER

room. Now I know why flagyl is nicknamed 'the Gates of Hell'.

- Ialso used it but just for few days, it made me really bad so I switched to

plaquenyl as cyst buster. BUt am affraid that all these quinolone type medicine

makes me really sick by its side effect, hrad to distinquish what is herx and

hwat is side effect.

M

[Guest guest]

You can get all the Buhner herbs prepackaged together at:

www.GreenDragonBotanicals.com

They are sold by Tim who apprenticed under Buhner.

Hope this helps!

Nicolle

>

> most propably I will try it, just need to figure out where to order all the

herbs. Is there a single address where they sell all necessary herbs? Anybdy

knows?

> I also want to discuss all with my TCM specialist who can be helpful too. I

just wonder if anyone completely recovered from lyme and coinfections as Buhner

says in his book that they have 95% success in the treatment.

> I am just searching for possibilities. Despite I finished ATB 4 days ago, I

had very strong flue like symptoms today, terrible pain all over the body, pain

of the heart and anxiety...

> Hope all will calm down at least a little so that I can exist normally, or at

least like before treatment.

> Thanks to all for any comments...

>

[Guest guest]

, Do you mean you are 25 years old or that your health is at 25% of

normal? Don't give up hope. I know how hard it is to live this way--but with

time and treatment you can get better. The hard part is finding what works for

your situation. It can take a lot of trial and error.

Wishing you better days ahead.

Kim

[ ] Re: New in here.request for help-

>

>

> I hope so. 85% will be very good. Now i am at 25...

Your age should work to your advantage. From what I know, for children full cure

from Lyme is far more common than for older people. Maybe because they have a

stronger immune system, or maybe because some of the Bb damage is (epi)genetic

and needs to be 'cured' by the bodies stem cells.

[Guest guest]

I get all my supplements at www.swansonvitamins.com

I get the Planetary Herbals brand of andrographis-- and Swanson's brand for the

Cat's claw, Knotweed (ie. Resveratrol), sarsaparilla (smilax), eleuthero, etc.

etc.  Their prices are a LOT better than those advertised on any other site--

and works for me....

Donna

From: nmlongman <nicolle@...>

Subject: [ ] Re: New in here.request for help-

Date: Thursday, March 10, 2011, 8:31 AM

 

You can get all the Buhner herbs prepackaged together at:

www.GreenDragonBotanicals.com

They are sold by Tim who apprenticed under Buhner.

Hope this helps!

Nicolle

>

> most propably I will try it, just need to figure out where to order all the

herbs. Is there a single address where they sell all necessary herbs? Anybdy

knows?

> I also want to discuss all with my TCM specialist who can be helpful too. I

just wonder if anyone completely recovered from lyme and coinfections as Buhner

says in his book that they have 95% success in the treatment.

> I am just searching for possibilities. Despite I finished ATB 4 days ago, I

had very strong flue like symptoms today, terrible pain all over the body, pain

of the heart and anxiety...

> Hope all will calm down at least a little so that I can exist normally, or at

least like before treatment.

> Thanks to all for any comments...

>

[Guest guest]

>

>> -I think this is because the Buhner protocol does not try to eradicate the

bugs.

>> BP tries to strengthen the body, repair the damage (and probably keep the

bugs

>> quiet, more friendly).

> I do not think so, he very often mentions in his book, that herbs are

> antibacterial and so on, I think he tries to eradicate, but more slowly...

I explained that a bit clumsy: I think Buhner does not try to directly kill the

bugs, he tries to make the environment less favourable for them. This means that

the bugs will gradually die off, but there is no massive kill like with some

types of ABX.

There is a philosophy behind this use of herbal medicine, but it is not really

discussed in the Healing Lyme book, only in his other books like 'the lost

language of plants'. And I think it has some scientific truth behind it: several

of the Buhner herbs are proven agents that disrupt quorum sensing (QS), the

language that many pathogenic bacteria (including probably Bb) use to coordinate

their actions.

Without QS, most of these pathogens are far less aggressive: they cannot attack

the immune system, make biofilms, produce toxins etc. So even if the bugs are

not killed, disrupting QS with herbs may be sufficient to get rid of most of the

problem. Btw, some antibiotics like Clarithromycine (Klacid) also block QS,

which could be a reason that they seem more effective for treating chronic lyme

than other ABX.

[Guest guest]

Could you please tell me what QS is?

Clarithromycin sounds like it would be a good abx to take.

Thanks for the info.

Also, are you familiar with Chlorella??

What is your opinion of that?

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 12:48 PM, knot_weed <tek0nik@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

> >

>

> >> -I think this is because the Buhner protocol does not try to eradicate

> the bugs.

> >> BP tries to strengthen the body, repair the damage (and probably keep

> the bugs

> >> quiet, more friendly).

> > I do not think so, he very often mentions in his book, that herbs are

> > antibacterial and so on, I think he tries to eradicate, but more

> slowly...

>

> I explained that a bit clumsy: I think Buhner does not try to directly kill

> the bugs, he tries to make the environment less favourable for them. This

> means that the bugs will gradually die off, but there is no massive kill

> like with some types of ABX.

>

> There is a philosophy behind this use of herbal medicine, but it is not

> really discussed in the Healing Lyme book, only in his other books like 'the

> lost language of plants'. And I think it has some scientific truth behind

> it: several of the Buhner herbs are proven agents that disrupt quorum

> sensing (QS), the language that many pathogenic bacteria (including probably

> Bb) use to coordinate their actions.

>

> Without QS, most of these pathogens are far less aggressive: they cannot

> attack the immune system, make biofilms, produce toxins etc. So even if the

> bugs are not killed, disrupting QS with herbs may be sufficient to get rid

> of most of the problem. Btw, some antibiotics like Clarithromycine (Klacid)

> also block QS, which could be a reason that they seem more effective for

> treating chronic lyme than other ABX.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I mean my health is at 25%. Today went to see my chimese docotr to discuss what

to use now to get the body in some balance and half an hour trip there and back

ruined me totally, after that I fell aspeel and was totally exhausted. NOw I

will atek acupuncture for some 4 weeks and she will study both BUhner and Zhang

rptocol and see what we can do. But I am really for Buhners protcol, somehow I

have sympathy and trust in it.

Maybe after I forget last experince with ATb I will agaon try it but definitelly

not now.

Or there is specialized clinic in GErmany in Augsburg where they treat lyme

acording to ILADS and holistic system, they use both ABX and herbs so maybe I

will stay there. It costs momey but ...

Thanks for support Kim.

M

________________________________

From: Kim Ovrutsky <KTOvrutsky@...>

Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 2:44:59 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: New in here.request for help-

, Do you mean you are 25 years old or that your health is at 25% of

normal? Don't give up hope. I know how hard it is to live this way--but with

time and treatment you can get better. The hard part is finding what works for

your situation. It can take a lot of trial and error.

Wishing you better days ahead.

Kim

[ ] Re: New in here.request for help-

>

>

> I hope so. 85% will be very good. Now i am at 25...

Your age should work to your advantage. From what I know, for children full cure

from Lyme is far more common than for older people. Maybe because they have a

stronger immune system, or maybe because some of the Bb damage is (epi)genetic

and needs to be 'cured' by the bodies stem cells.

[Guest guest]

thanks for explanation, I shall order also his other books t get more deeper in

his way of understanding lyme. BUt still, plants likeartemisa are directky

killing the bugs as well as cats claw, which was proven by E.Sapi...

I have not used klacid as Dr. Bozsik aims directly to substrain as he had some

evidence from in vitro tets that certain ABX are more efficient to certain

strains of borelia. for BB ss makrolides (azi, klacid), for garinii penicilin

and its derivates, cephalosporins and afzelii reacts with tetracyclins. HE uses

cipro as he again proved in in vitro test that synergistic efect with doxycyclin

is 100x then doxycyclin itself, he claims that using minocyclin and cipro is 500

more effective then doxy itself. MAybe thats wahy I had such strong reactions.

Also the tretament was effective against bartonell as cipro and mino have effect

and adding plaquenyl toit was hitting babesia too. no wonder that one gets so

misarable :-)

BUt I think I would like to go more calm now ...

M

________________________________

From: knot_weed <tek0nik@...>

Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 7:48:53 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: New in here.request for help-

>

>> -I think this is because the Buhner protocol does not try to eradicate the

>>bugs.

>>

>> BP tries to strengthen the body, repair the damage (and probably keep the

bugs

>

>> quiet, more friendly).

> I do not think so, he very often mentions in his book, that herbs are

> antibacterial and so on, I think he tries to eradicate, but more slowly...

I explained that a bit clumsy: I think Buhner does not try to directly kill the

bugs, he tries to make the environment less favourable for them. This means that

the bugs will gradually die off, but there is no massive kill like with some

types of ABX.

There is a philosophy behind this use of herbal medicine, but it is not really

discussed in the Healing Lyme book, only in his other books like 'the lost

language of plants'. And I think it has some scientific truth behind it: several

of the Buhner herbs are proven agents that disrupt quorum sensing (QS), the

language that many pathogenic bacteria (including probably Bb) use to coordinate

their actions.

Without QS, most of these pathogens are far less aggressive: they cannot attack

the immune system, make biofilms, produce toxins etc. So even if the bugs are

not killed, disrupting QS with herbs may be sufficient to get rid of most of the

problem. Btw, some antibiotics like Clarithromycine (Klacid) also block QS,

which could be a reason that they seem more effective for treating chronic lyme

than other ABX.

[Guest guest]

>

> Could you please tell me what QS is?

QS is short for Quorum Sensing. Short introduction:

http://www.ted.com/talks/bonnie_bassler_on_how_bacteria_communicate.html

Borrelia seems to have the Lux-S/AI2 QS system (an 'Esperanto' version of QS

that works for communication between very different species).

> Also, are you familiar with Chlorella??

> What is your opinion of that?

I have used it an think it works, a bit. It also seems relatively safe to me and

probably works a bit better than alternatives like spirulina, and much safer

than chemical alternatives like Questran (Cholestyramine). Some people cannot

tolerate chlorella though, they get some kind of nausea / allergic reaction (?).

You need a reliable supplier, because chlorella can accumulate endotoxins (e.g.

with wrong growing conditions). Prices often seem outrageous to me, there is

like 10x or even 50x price difference between various products on a weight

basis, and the most expensive ones are not necessarily the best. I'm now using

Yaeyama chlorella from Jarrow, good price and seems OK.

[Guest guest]

knot weed,

thank you so much for your information.

you sound so knowledgeable.

it is very confusing to me, as to what to take when,

with food/without food, etc.

and my hubby has a paralyzed diaphragm so i have

to be even more careful with him.

thanks,

dixie

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 3:06 PM, knot_weed <tek0nik@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Could you please tell me what QS is?

>

> QS is short for Quorum Sensing. Short introduction:

>

> http://www.ted.com/talks/bonnie_bassler_on_how_bacteria_communicate.html

>

> Borrelia seems to have the Lux-S/AI2 QS system (an 'Esperanto' version of

> QS that works for communication between very different species).

>

>

> > Also, are you familiar with Chlorella??

> > What is your opinion of that?

>

> I have used it an think it works, a bit. It also seems relatively safe to

> me and probably works a bit better than alternatives like spirulina, and

> much safer than chemical alternatives like Questran (Cholestyramine). Some

> people cannot tolerate chlorella though, they get some kind of nausea /

> allergic reaction (?).

>

> You need a reliable supplier, because chlorella can accumulate endotoxins

> (e.g. with wrong growing conditions). Prices often seem outrageous to me,

> there is like 10x or even 50x price difference between various products on a

> weight basis, and the most expensive ones are not necessarily the best. I'm

> now using Yaeyama chlorella from Jarrow, good price and seems OK.

>

>

>