Re: anyone recommend antibiotics w/Buhner?

[Guest guest]

it probably depends on the person what is best ...

I had over a year of AB treatment for confirmed Bb infection, mostly

neurolyme (6 weeks IV rocephin and over a year several oral AB / cyst

buster combinations). Had to stop because of liver damage and severe

gut problems. I got gallstones from the rocephin as well, and I

suspect some other new problems were also caused by prolonged AB use.

Maybe some of these adverse effects could have been prevented by a

more knowledgeable docter, but there are few of those in Europe.

For me the AB was effective especially for the neuro problems, but

within some weeks-months of stopping the AB, many Lyme symptoms

returned. Ultimately I got the adverse AB effects added to the Lyme.

After that I did a year of Buhner which improved my condition within

a few weeks already, without any adverse effects. But during the rest

of the Buhner year there was little further improvement, and now that

I stopped the herbs the problems are back

If your body can take longterm AB it probably is the fastest way to

restore (some) health. If you can take the Buhner herbs at the same

time probably even better. That said, my impression is that most

chronic lymies never fully recover.

[Guest guest]

Hi knot_weed,

 

Thanks for the reply. 

 

How long did you have lyme when you started the antibiotics?

Did you take probiotics while you were taking the antibiotics? or any liver or

blood cleansers?  ie, milk thistle, smilax, coffee enemas, etc

 

Are you back on the herbs now?

Are you planning to ever go back on antibiotics?

 

Thanks,

Roxanne

From: knot_weed <tek0nik@...>

Subject: [ ] Re: anyone recommend antibiotics w/Buhner?

Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 9:55 AM

it probably depends on the person what is best ...

I had over a year of AB treatment for confirmed Bb infection, mostly

neurolyme (6 weeks IV rocephin and over a year several oral AB / cyst

buster combinations) . Had to stop because of liver damage and severe

gut problems. I got gallstones from the rocephin as well, and I

suspect some other new problems were also caused by prolonged AB use.

Maybe some of these adverse effects could have been prevented by a

more knowledgeable docter, but there are few of those in Europe.

For me the AB was effective especially for the neuro problems, but

within some weeks-months of stopping the AB, many Lyme symptoms

returned. Ultimately I got the adverse AB effects added to the Lyme.

After that I did a year of Buhner which improved my condition within

a few weeks already, without any adverse effects. But during the rest

of the Buhner year there was little further improvement, and now that

I stopped the herbs the problems are back

If your body can take longterm AB it probably is the fastest way to

restore (some) health. If you can take the Buhner herbs at the same

time probably even better. That said, my impression is that most

chronic lymies never fully recover.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for the reply.  I'm wondering if anyone has tried taking alot of

probiotics and liver cleansers while they are taking the antibiotics and if that

would help prevent the adverse affects from the antibiotics.  I guess I could

search lymnet to see if I can find an answer.  Have you taken any probiotics

while taking the antibiotics?  and if yes, did you find it helped?

Thanks,

Roxanne

From: Runyan <monandreamichelle@...>

Subject: Re: [ ] anyone recommend antibiotics w/Buhner?

esprit1122@...

Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 7:10 AM

I see a Lyme-literate naturopathic doctor. He says that the herbs are good, but

many people also need antibiotics. The way I see it, it takes some effort

rebuild your gut/flora after using antibiotics, but it takes vastly more effort

to get rid of Lyme disease. The latter is my first priority right now, so I'm

using antibiotics+herbs.

I used antibiotics for 4 months, then used herbs for 3 months, then had to get

back on antibiotics. While I was on herbs alone, my floaters increased, and I

developed interstitial cystitis, maybe from not having enough Lyme control going

on. The floaters are going away now that I'm back on antibiotics.

Even besides the herbs and antibiotics, I think it's good to use garlic (has

good anti-Lyme activity) and immune support (e.g. medicinal mushrooms). It's not

just about using one chemical, since Lyme mutates often and can get around

antibiotics. Garlic is good because it has so many different antibiotic

components, and in the end, the immune system needs to kick in.

[Guest guest]

> How long did you have lyme when you started the antibiotics?

nearly 2 years (tick byte, quickly followed by EM and severe neuro

problems - but my doc refused to act, and I didn't know much then).

It was possibly my second Bb infection: had two insect bites about 5

years earlier (no idea what bit me, but I live in tick country).

These bites were followed - in hindsight - by early lyme symptoms

like fatigue, mild recurring fevers, gut problems, joint problems

etc.

> Did you take probiotics while you were taking the antibiotics? or

any liver or blood cleansers?  ie, milk thistle, smilax, coffee

enemas, etc

I started with AB in hospital where they used none of this: no

actigall, no probiotics / vitamin B / cleansers etc. I started with

that later on after reading about it, but that was probably too late

for my gut (and certainly too late for the gall bladder). After the

AB I also had gluten allergy and yeast problems (common problems I

think ...).

 

> Are you back on the herbs now?

> Are you planning to ever go back on antibiotics?

currently using low dose Buhner herbs. One month ago I suddenly got

severe gut problems and a bit later a hard swollen lymph node in the

groin. My doc says the lymph node could be a sign something else is

wrong, and he suggests it has to be surgically removed to check if it

doesn't disappear soon. I'm not sure if it is Lyme or another

problem

I think I first have to sort out this problem, and after that start a

new course of herbs or AB. My doc will prescribe AB if I want to, but

after the first bad AB experiences I'm not looking forward to that.

[Guest guest]

Where are you in Europe? - Robin

In a message dated 3/3/2009 1:37:32 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

tek0nik@... writes:

>Its so unfortunate that hospital people and MDs don't understand the

importance of clearing toxins from the body while herxing or even the

importance of probiotics while taking AB. It boggles the mind, really.

yes, really sad. I'm beginning to think that these basics may be more

important for restoring health than the actual 'bug killing' with

antibiotics. In Europe it is probably worse than in the US, LLMD's are

close to nonexistent here (my longterm AB treatment was an exception to

the rule, obviously). So very little progress.

> Good luck with your swollen lymph problem. I would have it looked

at carefully (biopsy) before removing anything. MDs are notorious for

removing parts that we really need.

thanks, I sure prefer to stay intact if possible. I guess removing

parts makes the docs more money than prescribing some (preventive)

antibiotics

**************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a

recession.

(http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002)

[Guest guest]

thanks for the info.  the more I learn about lyme treatments the more I realize

how important it is to keep the liver healthy.  I read today that some people do

the coffee enemas 2x/day while herxing.  I was surprised to see that.  Its so

unfortunate that hospital people and MDs don't understand the importance of

clearing toxins from the body while herxing or even the importance of probiotics

while taking AB.  It boggles the mind, really.

 

Good luck with your swollen lymph problem.   I would have it looked at carefully

(biopsy) before removing anything.  MDs are notorious for removing parts that we

really need.

 

Roxanne

From: knot_weed <tek0nik@...>

Subject: [ ] Re: anyone recommend antibiotics w/Buhner?

Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 8:19 PM

> How long did you have lyme when you started the antibiotics?

nearly 2 years (tick byte, quickly followed by EM and severe neuro

problems - but my doc refused to act, and I didn't know much then).

It was possibly my second Bb infection: had two insect bites about 5

years earlier (no idea what bit me, but I live in tick country).

These bites were followed - in hindsight - by early lyme symptoms

like fatigue, mild recurring fevers, gut problems, joint problems

etc.

> Did you take probiotics while you were taking the antibiotics? or

any liver or blood cleansers?  ie, milk thistle, smilax, coffee

enemas, etc

I started with AB in hospital where they used none of this: no

actigall, no probiotics / vitamin B / cleansers etc. I started with

that later on after reading about it, but that was probably too late

for my gut (and certainly too late for the gall bladder). After the

AB I also had gluten allergy and yeast problems (common problems I

think ...).

 

> Are you back on the herbs now?

> Are you planning to ever go back on antibiotics?

currently using low dose Buhner herbs. One month ago I suddenly got

severe gut problems and a bit later a hard swollen lymph node in the

groin. My doc says the lymph node could be a sign something else is

wrong, and he suggests it has to be surgically removed to check if it

doesn't disappear soon. I'm not sure if it is Lyme or another

problem

I think I first have to sort out this problem, and after that start a

new course of herbs or AB. My doc will prescribe AB if I want to, but

after the first bad AB experiences I'm not looking forward to that.

[Guest guest]

>Its so unfortunate that hospital people and MDs don't understand the

importance of clearing toxins from the body while herxing or even the

importance of probiotics while taking AB.  It boggles the mind, really.

yes, really sad. I'm beginning to think that these basics may be more

important for restoring health than the actual 'bug killing' with

antibiotics. In Europe it is probably worse than in the US, LLMD's are

close to nonexistent here (my longterm AB treatment was an exception to

the rule, obviously). So very little progress.

 

> Good luck with your swollen lymph problem.   I would have it looked

at carefully (biopsy) before removing anything.  MDs are notorious for

removing parts that we really need.

thanks, I sure prefer to stay intact if possible. I guess removing

parts makes the docs more money than prescribing some (preventive)

antibiotics

[Guest guest]

Hi Roxanne,

I did a 28-day course of abx when I was first diagnosed, bec. I was

freaked out by the diag. and didn't do any research, just followed the

doctor's rec.

All it did for me was give me thrush, which took a month to get rid of.

I didn't see any improvement until I started the herbs.

ellen

[Guest guest]

Netherlands

> Where are you in Europe? - Robin

[Guest guest]

Definitely, taking probiotics (good quality!high doses!) and liver

protective herbs helped me - I have been on antibiotics for years and

never yet had a problem; also a good quality vitamin-mineral

supplement.

Without the ABX I would be unable to function; I went to an LLMD for

a while, in Hyde Park, NY, and took vast amounts of ABX for 2 years

until I could no longer afford it - still, never had a problem.

I was " well enough " to be able to rotate Buhner and ABX this Fall,

and hoping this will lead to cutting back on ABX even more this year.

I have also taken the 2 together, tho' that was an awful lot of pills

to swallow!

Watching your diet can help - try to eat healthier & cleaner foods.

But I still consume sugar & yeasty bread.

Edith

> Thanks for the reply.  I'm wondering if anyone has tried taking

alot of probiotics and liver cleansers while they are taking the

antibiotics and if that would help prevent the adverse affects from

the antibiotics.  I guess I could search lymnet to see if I can find

an answer.  Have you taken any probiotics while taking the

antibiotics?  and if yes, did you find it helped?

>

> Thanks,

> Roxanne

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, that gives me some hope wrt to antibiotics.  I've heard so many awful

things about them, I wasn't sure if I should try them.   so i guess if you take

probiotics and take herbs to clean the liver/blood then the AB may be a good

thing.

 

Roxanne

From: laofopar <laofopar@...>

Subject: [ ] Re: anyone recommend antibiotics w/Buhner?

Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:27 PM

Definitely, taking probiotics (good quality!high doses!) and liver protective

herbs helped me - I have been on antibiotics for years and

never yet had a problem; also a good quality vitamin-mineral

supplement.

Without the ABX I would be unable to function; I went to an LLMD for

a while, in Hyde Park, NY, and took vast amounts of ABX for 2 years

until I could no longer afford it - still, never had a problem.

I was " well enough " to be able to rotate Buhner and ABX this Fall,

and hoping this will lead to cutting back on ABX even more this year.

I have also taken the 2 together, tho' that was an awful lot of pills

to swallow!

Watching your diet can help - try to eat healthier & cleaner foods.

But I still consume sugar & yeasty bread.

Edith

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I've been gone for a while - just checking in.

I had Lyme for maybe 15 years before being diagnosed, so I was pretty sick. I

took antibiotics for 18 months. During that time, I tried combining herbs with

the antibiotics, and my liver couldn't handle it. So I didn't begin Buhner's

protocol until I stopped the antibiotics.

I believe Dr Burrascano discovered that it is the cat's claw that is a problem

when used alongside antibiotics, so the rest of the protocol may be OK. Just

make sure to do frequent liver enzyme tests. Everyone is different.

I personally had very few problems with antibiotics. Minor yeast infections,

occasional nausea, and of course sun sensitivity with doxy. And after 18

months, I did start throwing them up. But by then the Lyme was pretty well

controlled, so I decided to stop. And the herbs alone have kept it at bay for

over two years now.

I always took Theralac along with antibiotics, to keep my gut healthy. It's a

very good probiotic. You take it an hour or two after the antibiotic, to

re-populate your gut flora.

I also use heat therapy. Every day I get into a bath and drive my temperature

up to at least 102 degrees - usually closer to 103. I've been doing this for 3

years now. When I started, it was a big turning point for me - huge strides,

very quickly.

And I stick to a low-carb diet - no starches or sugars. If I cheat, I start to

feel Lymie. And I exercise every day, usually a 1 or 2-mile walk, sometimes up

to 4 miles jogging. I'm working at finally getting fit this year. We'll see

how I do.

That's about it for me. I'm mostly symptom-free these days. I get some sweats,

but they aren't like they used to be and may just be menopausal. Over all, I

feel good.

>

> I've not yet started antibiotics but plan to start in about a month

> after my next LLMD appt.

>

> I've heard alot of bad things about antibiotics, ie, candida, GI flora

> imbalances, they weakened the body, etc, but I was wondering if anyone

> (who's also done Buhner) actually experienced some benefit from taking

> antibiotics. Do you think it's a good idea to do both Buhner and

> antibiotics? do you recommend doing them at the same time? How long

> did you do the antibiotics?

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

 

Thank you for your reply.  I had these questions:

 

did you do oral or IV antibiotics?

which herbs do you do currently?

How long do you usually stay in the bath?

 

Thank you,

Roxanne

 

From: DeMarco <@...>

Subject: [ ] Re: anyone recommend antibiotics w/Buhner?

Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 4:12 AM

I've been gone for a while - just checking in.

I had Lyme for maybe 15 years before being diagnosed, so I was pretty sick. I

took antibiotics for 18 months. During that time, I tried combining herbs with

the antibiotics, and my liver couldn't handle it. So I didn't begin Buhner's

protocol until I stopped the antibiotics.

I believe Dr Burrascano discovered that it is the cat's claw that is a problem

when used alongside antibiotics, so the rest of the protocol may be OK. Just

make sure to do frequent liver enzyme tests. Everyone is different.

I personally had very few problems with antibiotics. Minor yeast infections,

occasional nausea, and of course sun sensitivity with doxy. And after 18 months,

I did start throwing them up. But by then the Lyme was pretty well controlled,

so I decided to stop. And the herbs alone have kept it at bay for over two years

now.

I always took Theralac along with antibiotics, to keep my gut healthy. It's a

very good probiotic. You take it an hour or two after the antibiotic, to

re-populate your gut flora.

I also use heat therapy. Every day I get into a bath and drive my temperature up

to at least 102 degrees - usually closer to 103. I've been doing this for 3

years now. When I started, it was a big turning point for me - huge strides,

very quickly.

And I stick to a low-carb diet - no starches or sugars. If I cheat, I start to

feel Lymie. And I exercise every day, usually a 1 or 2-mile walk, sometimes up

to 4 miles jogging. I'm working at finally getting fit this year. We'll see how

I do.

That's about it for me. I'm mostly symptom-free these days. I get some sweats,

but they aren't like they used to be and may just be menopausal. Over all, I

feel good.

>

> I've not yet started antibiotics but plan to start in about a month

> after my next LLMD appt.

>

> I've heard alot of bad things about antibiotics, ie, candida, GI flora

> imbalances, they weakened the body, etc, but I was wondering if anyone

> (who's also done Buhner) actually experienced some benefit from taking

> antibiotics. Do you think it's a good idea to do both Buhner and

> antibiotics? do you recommend doing them at the same time? How long

> did you do the antibiotics?

[Guest guest]

Roxanne <esprit1122@...> wrote:

>

> Hi ,

>  

> Thank you for your reply.  I had these questions:

>  

> did you do oral or IV antibiotics?

Oral. Mostly doxycycline, but in the summer I did amoxicillin because of the

sun sensitivity. I always did best on the doxy, probably because I have a

bartonella co-infection.

> which herbs do you do currently?

Cat's claw, japanese knotweed (Hu Zhang), Sarsaparilla (Tu Fu Ling) and

stephania (Han Fang Ji). I buy them all in bulk powder. The cat's claw is from

mountainroseherbs.com, because ya just can't beat $8/lb. My horses get it too,

so cheap is a big help.

The other three are from chineseherbsdirect.com, and I get them in 100-gram

containers, powdered extract. I have never bothered encapsulating them. I just

mix them with a teeny bit of water to form a thin paste, get all the lumps out,

then add water a little at a time to make a lump-free liquid. Usually I add a

little pure cocoa powder (no sugar) and a little stevia to make it taste better.

It's not exactly yummy, but it's drinkable.

These days I take them once or twice a day, for a total of 2 grams of each.

Sometimes I take the little cup of dissolved herbs and mix it into a 2-liter

bottle of water, and sip it throughout the day. I think that works best, but I

usually don't bother these days.

> How long do you usually stay in the bath?

As long as it takes to get my temp up. I'd say usually 20 to 30 minutes. I

shove a thermometer in my mouth and wait for it to pass 102. Then I stay there

a little while longer to cook.

Don't try it alone the first few times. You can have a drop in blood pressure,

which could cause you to faint and drown. Have someone there checking on you.

Quit if you get dizzy. You can work up to it slowly.

We lost our hot tub in the ice storm (I'm in New Hampshire, and we were without

power for two weeks - it froze). It takes longer in the bath tub, but I can do

it, mainly because I'm under 5'2 " ad I can get most of me under the water. I

kept the hot tub at 105, and I used to get in and close the cover over myself.

That worked fast. But it is risky.

You didn't ask about supplements, but I do think magnesium and vitamin C are

absolutely key. Beyond that, I took a ton of other things, and I can dig out a

list if you like. I don't take them any more.

And I did have all my amalgam fillings safely removed, and I chelated using Andy

Cutler's protocol. That helped too.

>  

> Thank you,

You're welcome. Good luck with the unwanted guests in your body. It helped me

to realize that we *always* have pathogens in our bodies, and our immune systems

are always fighting them off. We just have to get the numbers down to where our

immune systems can fight it out in the background without us being quite so

aware of it. We'll never kill them all, and that's OK. We just want to feel

well.

Take care,