Re: Bartonella - VEGF

December 4, 2010

,

Thanks for such a detailed information on VEGF and its relationship to

Bartonella and cancer.

Do you see the link between cancer and Bartonella? Can Bartonella trigger

cancer?

Mei

December 4, 2010

Bartonella causes an upregulation of VEGF.

Certain cancer tumor cells also do this.

There are different VEGF's - VEGF-1, VEGF-2, etc.

so I wouldn't rush to any conclusions.

I want to be very clear that I never said Bartonella causes cancer, and I

frankly have no clue about cancer-anything, other than that I have found a lot

of information about reducing VEGF levels within some various cancer research,

with regard to managing tumors, etc.

IF there is one person you might try reaching out to, if this

is a special issue for you ? - I would suggest Dr. Eva Sapi at Univ. of New

Haven - who is now resarching Lyme, but was a well published Cancer researcher

at Yale for 20 years prior to getting the same run-around most of us have gotten

when she was infected with Lyme.

I have never spoken to her, and am not sure how well equiped she might be to

even respond to such an inquiry ? - it is just a thought.

>

> ,

>

> Thanks for such a detailed information on VEGF and its relationship to

Bartonella and cancer.

>

> Do you see the link between cancer and Bartonella? Can Bartonella trigger

cancer?

>

> Mei

>

December 6, 2010

Dear ,

Just peeking in tonight to read some posts and I want to thank you sincerely

for all that you are sharing here!

Lots of new and interesting research.....very helpful.

Also, I just love your comments about your experience with goldenrod.

I've also been adding goldenrod to my mix of herbs....mine i purchased (herb

pharm).....and it's great to have other herbalists here in the forum.

Much peace and ease....

yarrow

>

> Being new to the forum -I hope that my brand of research (of which I have

piles to share) is agree-able:

>

> I am not sure how many people here who Bart. - have ever had their Bartonella

virulence/treatment progress monitored via " Vascular Endothelial Growth

Factor " (VEGF) testing?

>

> If one is to look at Buhner's book - specifically the detail regarding

the up-regulation of VEGF by Bartonella (pg. 200)- it explains it pretty well.

>

December 6, 2010

>

just for the record, there are several studies that suggest Lyme patients have

LESS than average cancer risk because of the way Bb messes with our immune

system.

I don't know if the same applies for Bartonella, but you cannot judge cancer

risk from just one factor like VEGF.

December 6, 2010

Before I write a bunch more on this --- I have a question for the forum.

Does anyone know if there can be a parallel drawn with Lyme and Bartonella with

regard to HEAT ! -- it's pretty clear from all that

i've read that Bb hates heat, but I cannot find similar such information for

Bartonella (Henselae in particular). - thanks.

I do know Bart is different than Bb also in that it LIKES oxygen.

Now back to this topic...

VEGF is not " causing " cancer from what I have seen - rather it is the other way

around - certain types of cancer cells are upregulating VEGF.

Thus evevated VEGF is NOT a risk factor -- rather it is a SYMPTOM.

Both Cancer and Bartonella engage in some similar behavior - which is the

re-routing of blood vessels to feed it's colonies (or tumor masses) and

angiogenisis.

VEGF is very-crudely analogous to " miracle-grow/fertilizer " in promoting the

growth of blood vessel tissue in the garden of what is your body.

Bartonella wants more endothelial tissue to make it's home there so the extended

family can move in, and so it manipulates your body chemically to get what it

wants, and starts building the urban Apartment High-Rises side-by side, as new

real-estate become available.

This is also why you can find images of the skin features which present with

Bartonella all over the internet of outward symptoms which look like stretch

marks, or ruptured vessels on the skin of bartonella patients.

The scary thing is, however -- that Bartonella can do this same thing also on

the inside of your body where you cannot see it (some Bartonella species - more

than others).

This however in no way relates Bartonella to Cancer - and further it might even

be argued (but I wouldn't know with any certainty) that since the chemical

building blocks within the body are of a " finite " quantity at any given moment

that Cancer and Bartonella just might instead actually compete with one another

for the building blocks required to make VEGF.

> >

>

> just for the record, there are several studies that suggest Lyme patients have

LESS than average cancer risk because of the way Bb messes with our immune

system.

>

> I don't know if the same applies for Bartonella, but you cannot judge cancer

risk from just one factor like VEGF.

>

December 6, 2010

Once you block the VEGF response does it seemingly EXPOSE Bartonella to your

immune system?

What does the actual killing?

>

> Being new to the forum -I hope that my brand of research (of which I have

piles to share) is agree-able:

>

> I am not sure how many people here who Bart. - have ever had their Bartonella

virulence/treatment progress monitored via " Vascular Endothelial Growth

Factor " (VEGF) testing?

>

> If one is to look at Buhner's book - specifically the detail regarding

the up-regulation of VEGF by Bartonella (pg. 200)- it explains it pretty well.

>

> It's easy enough to find information regarding the reduction/down-regulation

of VEGF.

>

> In addition to Bartonella upregulating it, VEGF is a normally occurring

bio-chemical in the human body (with established clinical serum ranges) and

which coincidently plays a key role being upregulated also in Cancer tumor

growth.

>

> There is a treasure-trove of Cancer associated VEGF research (since

> Pharmaceutical companies foretell big profits in cancer drugs ~but

unfortunately not for us!) - I decided a while ago that i'll take the damn

information where-ever the hell I can get it !

>

> Accordingly – since VEGF plays such a critical role in Bartonella's survival

mechanisms and it's ability to colonize I've compiled the following

(partial)list of foods, supplements, and pharmaceuticals, etc. which have all

been clinically and/or scientifically supported to demonstrate the reduction of

VEGF levels(albeit - during various circumstances and thru various mechanisms):

>

> LIST OF VEGF REDUCING HERBS, SUPPLEMENTS, AND PHARMACEUTICALS

> -------------------------------------------------------------

>

> *Avastin – " the chemo drug WORKS ON VEGF – if your tumor markers are

expressing a high VEGF ask your oncologist about Avastin even if it isn't

regularly prescribed for your type of cancer. VEGF levels can be checked by

blood work..... " – quoted from Roche (mfr. webpage)

>

> *Allicin (garlic, Allium sativum) ICAM-1, FGF2, VEGF

> [also listed -Alliin (sp – error ?) - INHIBITED VEGF SECRETION from human

fibrosarcoma cells.]

>

> *AITC - Exhibited potent antiangiogenic activity associated with a SIGNIFICANT

REDUCTION IN VEGF EXPRESSION in a mice model bearing EAT cells.

>

> *Apigenin (parsley, Petroselinum crispum) - INHIBITED EXPRESSION OF VEGF in

cancer cells associated with a significant inhibition in tumor angiogenesis.

>

> *Bilberry.

>

> *Caffeic acid (Coffee) - SUPPRESSED VEGF, inhibited vascularization and

angiogenesis in mice bearing Caki-I human renal carcinoma cell line. ( " Yeah

COFFEE " !!! – my edit)

>

> *Capsaicin (chili pepper, Capsicum) - INHIBITED VEGF-induced p38 MAPK,

p125(FAK), and AKT activation, and capillary-like tube formation in human ECs.

>

> *Chinese baical skullcap – 95% baicalin

>

> *Chinese Wormwood –artemesia annua –95% artemisinin: Artemisiean - REMARKABLY

LOWERED VEGF EXPRESSION on tumor cells and KDR/flk-1 expression on endothelial

cells as well as tumor cells.

>

> *Curcumin (turmeric, Curcuma longa) - INHIBITED INDUCTION OF VEGF synthesis in

microvascular ECs through downregulation of NF-êB and AP-1 activity.

>

> *Diallyl sulfide - REDUCED SERUM LEVEL OF VEGF in B16-F10 melanoma bearing

C57BL/6 mice

>

> *Dong quai, extract –hydroxyderricin

>

> *EGCG (green tea, Camellia sinensis) - INHIBITED VEGF PRODUCTION through

inhibition of ERK-1 and ERK-2 kinases in human colon cancer cells.

>

> *Elderberry

>

> *EPA

>

> *Flavopiridol(Dysoxylum binectariferum) - Inhibited hypoxia-mediated HIF-1á

expression, VEGF SECRETION, and tumor cell migration in human U87MG and T98G

glioma cell lines.

>

> *Gambogic acid (gamboge tree, Garcinia hanburyi) - INHIBITED ACTIVATION OF

VEGFR2, c-Src, FAK, and AKT and angiogenesis in HUVEC and human prostate cancer

cells (PC3)

>

> *Genistein (soybeans, Glycine max) - SUPPRESSED VEGF and FGF-2 expression;

inhibited tyrosine kinase and activation of NF-êB and AKT; inhibited

angiogenesis in renal cell carcinoma

>

> *Gingerol Inhibited VEGF-induced capillary-like tube formation and sprouting

in ECs in the rat aorta and new blood vessel formation

> in the mouse cornea

>

> *Ginkgo

>

> *Grape Seed

>

> *Luteolin - INHIBITED VEGF induced survival and proliferation of HUVECs

through PI3K/AKT-dependent pathways

>

> *Magnolia seed cones 90% honokiol

>

> *Naringin - " ...Naringin, followed by rutin, was the MOST POTENT FLAVONOID

INHIBITOR OF VEGF RELEASE, which causes angiogenesis, out of 21

flavonoids.... " (source: wiki)

>

> *Perillyl alcohol - DECREASED VEGF RELEASE from cancer cells and stimulated

the expression of Ang2 by ECs

>

> *Phenolic-rich herbs

>

> *Propolis (CAPE)

>

> *PSK(Coriolus)

>

> *Quercetin (parsley, Petroselinum crispum) - INHIBITED HYPOXIA-INDUCED VEGF

EXPRESSION in NCI-H157 cells through suppression of STAT-3 tyrosine

phosphorylation

>

> *Resveratrol (Jananese knotweed, red grapes, Vitis vinifera) - BLOCKS VEGF-

and FGF-receptor-mediated angiogenic responses through inhibition of MAPK

phosphorylation in ECs

>

> *Rosmarinic acid - INHIBITED ANGIOGENESIS, VEGF EXPRESSION, and IL-8 release

in ECs

>

> *Rutin (wiki)

>

> *Sanguinarine (bloodroot, Sanguinaria canadensis) - Exhibited antiangiogenic

activity through SUPPRESSION OF VEGF-induced proliferation and AKT activation in

EC

>

> *Selenium

>

> *Silibinin(milk thistle plant, Silybum marianum) - Exhibited antiangiogenic

activities against human CRC HT29 xenograft growth in mice associated with

DOWNREGULATION OF NOS, COX, HIF-1Á, AND VEGF EXPRESSION

>

> *Taxol (Pacific yew, Taxus brevifolia) - INHIBITED VEGF production in human

leukemic cell lines

>

> *ã-Tocotrienol (Palm, Nigella sativa) - Inhibited cobalt(II) chloride-induced

accumulation of HIF-1á and the paracrine SECRETION OF VEGF in human gastric

adenocarcinoma SGC-7901 cell line through downregulation of ERK-1/2 pathway

>

> *Ursolic acid(rosemary, Rosmarinus officinalis)-Inhibited capillary

formation,reduced SERUM LEVEL OF VEGF, NO, and proinflammatory cytokines in

C57BL/6 mice bearing B16-F10 melanoma cells

>

> *Vanillin(vanilla bean) - Suppressed HGF-induced tumor cell angiogenesis in a

mouse model through inhibition of PI3K/AKT signaling and VEGF EXPRESSION

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

> I CAUTION – THAT A LOT MORE RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE DONE ON ALL OF THE ABOVE,

BEFORE SOME WISE-GUY " ENTREPENEUR " GOES AND CREATES THE NEW " BARTONELLA

WONDERDRUG " CONCOCTION TO MARKET TO ALL OF US BASED ON THE ABOVE LIST WHICH I

SPENT HOURS PUTTING TOGETHER. – I think the best practical thing one can take

from this list is that among those items which are listed above which are common

foods,and spices, beverages, etc that these might be considered for inclusion in

ones diet (they are " normal " edible spices, foods, and beverages).

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

> SOURCES:

> 1.http://www.wpb-radon.com/pdf/Brodhead%20cancer%20recommendations.pdf

>

2.http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/23540717/1801748182/name/RegulationAngiogenesisNu\

\

> triceuticals.pdf

> 3.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naringin

>

> FURTHER READING:

> This article may be about as detailed as it get's in describing the role of

VEGF in Bartonella: http://edoc.unibas.ch/968/1/PhD_thesis_FS.pdf

>

> Another very recent (2009), and extremely technical article which evaluates

and assesses a sort of the " state of the state " regarding Bartonella (compiled

from various research sources) and which contemplates the " unanswered questions "

and makes some " recommendations for future study " – surprisingly funded by the

NIH and self-admitting from within it's title " persistence " .

>

http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/medicine/units/medical_microbiology/courses/Mi\

\croPath97.705/PDF/Bartonella_ref2.pdf

>

> Further reading - VEGF:

>

http://www.zellbiologie.uni-bonn.de/Haas/Publications/2005%20-%20CellMB%20-%20Ky\

\me.pdf

>

> Additional information regarding prescription Pharmaceutical VEGF

inhibitors(cancer research):

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2711630/?tool=pubmed

>

December 7, 2010

I guess it would be relatively easy for researchers to check if Bartonella

(directly) upregulates VEGF in an animal model, e.g. checking the mRNA or actual

VEGF levels. You need to know if it is the bug causing it, or one of the many

'countermeasures' that our body uses to fight infection.

more blood flow = more building blocks and energy, but also more blood cells

(e.g. NK cells) that will reach this part of the body and maybe fight the

infection.

December 7, 2010

Knot...

This has already been established...

Harrod Buhner " Healing Lyme " - page 200, 6 lines down.

Also...

MOLECULAR AND CELLULAR BASIS

OF BARTONELLA PATHOGENESIS

Christoph Dehio

Division of Molecular Microbiology, Biozentrum, University of Basel,

4056 Basel, Switzerland

" ...Two independent reports support such a paracrine loop model for

Bartonella-triggered vasoproliferation (62, 98). Both vascular endothelial

growth factor (VEGF), one of the most potent inducers of angiogenesis, and

IL-1â, a potentiator of VEGF, are released from the human macrophage cell line

THP-1 in response to infection with B. henselae. Importantly, such a conditioned

culture medium was able to trigger proliferation of HMEC-1 (98). Likewise, B.

henselae infection of Ea.hy 926 cells (a fusion clone of HUVEC and the lung

carcinoma cell line A549) triggers secretion of VEGF at levels supporting HUVEC

proliferation, while neutralizing anti-VEGF antibody blocked most of Annu. Rev.

Microbiol. 2004.58:365-390. BARTONELLA PATHOGENESIS 375 the angiogenic activity

contained in the conditioned culture medium (62). These data are in favor of a

paracrine angiogenic loop with VEGF representing the major vasoproliferative

substance released by macrophages in response to B. henselae infection... "

(note: the above is from an older paper - this is just one source among many

from whence I am grabbing this to demonstrate the point)

If the " countermeasure " as you call it is coming from the body " to fight

infection " , then I would clearly argue that this is circular logic - and indeed

that the bug IS " causing it " .

Albeit Bartonella IS NOT directly creating VEGF but rather manipulating the body

to do so.

Specifically (from above):

" VEGF (is)...released from the human macrophage cell line THP-1 in response to

infection with B. henselae "

2nd point...

It is important to remember that Bartonella is specifically " intracellular " once

colonizing and reproducing - whether within blood cells or the endothelial cells

(and also potentially bone marrow as some research shows - and which is

terrifying in terms of effective treatment).

So what you are describing Knotweed - then in your response when you state....

" ...more blood flow = more building blocks and energy, but also more blood cells

(e.g. NK cells) that will reach this part of the body and maybe fight the

infection... "

....would be a rather " suicidal " pathology mechanism by the organism, and I think

frankly challenges the laws of nature. (...and this is the part where

reads and then posts - Does Bartonella cause auto-immune diseases ?)

(Ironically - however, I have seen it written in many places that acute Cat

Scratch Disease is self limiting without treatment ).

It is important to have a mental image of the relative size of the components

which are involved.

-R!

>

> I guess it would be relatively easy for researchers to check if Bartonella

(directly) upregulates VEGF in an animal model, e.g. checking the mRNA or actual

VEGF levels. You need to know if it is the bug causing it, or one of the many

'countermeasures' that our body uses to fight infection.

>

> more blood flow = more building blocks and energy, but also more blood cells

(e.g. NK cells) that will reach this part of the body and maybe fight the

infection.

>

December 9, 2010

>

> If the " countermeasure " as you call it is coming from the body " to fight

infection " , then I would clearly argue that this is circular logic - and indeed

that the bug IS " causing it " .

>

> Albeit Bartonella IS NOT directly creating VEGF but rather manipulating the

body to do so.

No, this is NOT circular reasoning. The body has many countermeasures against

parasites, that will activate when a parasite is detected. Some of them may fail

in a specific case for various reasons, depending on environmental factors,

genetic factors of the host or the bug etc.

If the countermeasure fails this doesn't mean that the bug is manipulating the

body to do something stupid, it just means that one of the defense lines is not

effective.

Only if the bug causes a very unusual body action that actively helps the bugs,

maybe you could state that the bug is causing this action.

December 9, 2010

I have confirmed Bartonella as well. Although I am using the Lymes Protocol to

attempt to rid my body of the evil little spirochetes I have found great success

with the following regimen, if anyone is interested. It has helped incredibly

with pain and fatigue.

Tea: Knotweed, Cats Claw, Red Root, Stephania, Smilex (3 oz 3x per day) with

Holy Basil for anxiety

Boluoke (2 x per day)

Green Super Food (1 x per day)

Vitamin C (2,000 mg per day)

Cod Liver Oil (1 tbs liquid per day)

Flax Oil (1 tsp per day)

Multivitamin

B-Complex

A-F Betafood (for liver)

Two months ago I didn't have the energy to get out of bed and my joints were

killing me. This past week I played two competetive ice hockey games Sat. and

Sun. and snowboarded all day on Mon., Tues., and Wed.,. I would not have been

able to do that 2 months ago. I think the focus on building on the immune system

has made the biggest difference.

PRIVACY &

December 9, 2010

You listed knotweed, cats claw, red root, stephania, smilex under

Tea....is it a tea you are drinking or the tincture 3x per day?

In a message dated 12/9/2010 4:40:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

snowgirlvt@... writes:

I have confirmed Bartonella as well. Although I am using the Lymes Protocol

to

attempt to rid my body of the evil little spirochetes I have found great

success

with the following regimen, if anyone is interested. It has helped

incredibly

with pain and fatigue.

Tea: Knotweed, Cats Claw, Red Root, Stephania, Smilex (3 oz 3x per day)

with

Holy Basil for anxiety

Boluoke (2 x per day)

Green Super Food (1 x per day)

Vitamin C (2,000 mg per day)

Cod Liver Oil (1 tbs liquid per day)

Flax Oil (1 tsp per day)

Multivitamin

B-Complex

A-F Betafood (for liver)

Two months ago I didn't have the energy to get out of bed and my joints

were

killing me. This past week I played two competetive ice hockey games Sat.

and

Sun. and snowboarded all day on Mon., Tues., and Wed.,. I would not have

been

able to do that 2 months ago. I think the focus on building on the immune

system

has made the biggest difference.

PRIVACY &

December 9, 2010

Knot...

I am not sure if we are arguing, or having a great discussion on a (welcoming)

high technical level ?

I pointed out in my prior post (with references) that ....

" VEGF (is)...released from the human macrophage cell line THP-1 in response to

infection with B. henselae "

If you want some real guts on this - go down to the bottom of this post, a brand

new paper from Nov.

What else can I say (except for, lets find some more resarch about it) ? - I

actually have tons, but just haven't disected it all. A lot of people doing this

cubby-holed/reductionist research haven't even looked at what the " other guy "

has done - it's maddening.

Nothing " stupid " about it either - a well evolved organism which has been on the

planet for millions (maybe ?) of years before human beings has a will to

survive, and thrive - a basic law of nature, and it has developed cunning ways

to manipulate hosts, and host's innate immune system intelligence.

Think about what would be involved with humans adapting to survive a killer

strain of Bartonella ? --- all humans die, except for 2 who survive and

reproduce. Hmmm ?

On the micro-scopic level it's pretty damn smart, but us humans have all that

innate immune system intelligence, and alot more, plus the ability to harmonize

with nature, and to even call on spiritual assistance in our plight (if you go

there? - I do).

And so - yes Humans however have developed some cunningness as well - so, eh -

isn't it time we apply ourselves and figure the damn things out, and in an

ecologically responsible manner ???

There's more than one way to do this too, teaches at least 2.

But I doubt most people are ready for the 1st method, but you can go and read

his amazing writings on heart based cognition in indigenous herbalism - I did.

The second method---Using the brain (in an intellectually honest, and

ecologically non-reductionist and aware manner):

As said himself in some interviews regarding his (then new) book

Healing Lyme - (paraphrasing) " there really is TONS of good information out

there, but no one has collated it " (tho i've been collecting alot of it).

If you look at any single study they are nearly all looking at a snap-shot, or

some miniscule little aspect of the pathology of the organism. There is very

little which includes a solid inclusive, politically unbiased overview.

Again I provide this article (an informed/well referenced overview):

http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/medicine/units/medical_microbiology/courses/Mi\

croPath97.705/PDF/Bartonella_ref2.pdf

There are a lot of people on forum(s) either looking for help, or just hobbying

who appear to me are trying to take short-cuts " just tell me what

works " .... tried to answer that question.

Then I am also seeing people who are interested and/or dabbling with some of the

Buhner protocol, but not even reading the explicit detail he provides in the

book.

You all realize that he also provides some excellent further reading in his own

words here don't you:

http://planetthrive.com/category/experts/buhner/

I think some of it can be disected even further, and I think he taught us how to

do that just by a good look at how he put his book together - And I think the

same logic can be applied to go further beyond what he offers in the book - but

i'll be damned if I am going to invest time in it with a bunch of unreferenced,

ill-informed theories, and quests for miracle cures.

I also have reservations about bothering - because I haven't been on his

full-blown Bartonella protocol for much more than 2 months. He talks about

expecting results after 6 months.

This is not some game or hobby for me -- My family has a history of heart valve

damage, and I am having some cardiac presentations, in addition to having

unequivecal chronic Bartonella. Ok, yeah maybe there is " no such thing as

chronic Bartonella " -but the only way I see how, is because we just we haven't

found how to reliably keep it from being chronic. The above NIH funded research

article admits directly within it's own title the word " persistence " .

You can re-read the above paragraph and fill in the blanks as to why I am so

interested, it hardly a " hobby " for me -- if you don't get it the first time

around. This is also why I am so highly intollerant of unreferenced information,

and wild theories being tossed around ad nauseum - put yourself in my shoes with

2 immediate family members who have required heart valve surgery.

BTW - yesterday I spent at the hosptial ER and am battling a nasty systemic

yeast infection (digestive, rash, and some mild CNS presentations as well) from

having resumed Doxycycline for this recent/seperate Lonestar tick bite (which I

discovered JUST today tested postive for Rocky Mtn. spotted fever) which

destroyed my gut flora and allowed this nasty yeast to throw an orgy at my

expense. Then after 36 hours on now sleep.

ttToday, I was awoken with a phone call and rushed and took my Mom to the

emergency room for her own issues (and conveniently dropped off my stool sample

and said Merry Christmas to everyone at the lab) --- god bless Harrod

Buhner that I was able to do so - he is the reason I was, 24 hours prior I was

in sad-ass shape, tho I do think he maybe has a mis-spelling on pg 174 where he

says " undecenoic acid " .

Further (and very very recent) reading on Bartonella and VEGF:

-------------------------------------------------------

Cell Microbiol. 2010 Nov 2; [Epub ahead of print]

The Bartonella henselae VirB/Bep System Interferes with Vascular Endothelial

Cell Growth Factor (VEGF) Signalling in Human Vascular Endothelial Cells.

Scheidegger F, Quebatte M, Mistl C, Dehio C.

Focal Area Infection Biology, Biozentrum, University of Basel,

Klingelbergstrasse 70, CH-4056 Basel, Switzerland.

The vasculotropic pathogen Bartonella henselae (Bh) intimately interacts with

human endothelial cells (ECs) and subverts multiple cellular functions. Here we

report that Bh specifically interferes with vascular endothelial growth

factor(VEGF) signalling in ECs. Bh infection abrogated VEGF-induced

proliferation and wound closure of EC monolayers as well as the capillary-like

sprouting of EC spheroids. On the molecular level, Bh infection did not alter

VEGF-receptor-2 (VEGFR2) expression or cell surface localization, but impeded

VEGF-stimulated phosphorylation of VEGFR2 at tyrosine(1175) . Consistently, we

observed that Bh infection diminished downstream events of the tyrosine(1175)

-dependent VEGFR2-signalling pathway leading to EC proliferation, i.e.

phospholipase-Cgamma activation, cytosolic calcium fluxes, and mitogen-activated

protein kinase ERK1/2 phosphorylation. Pervanadate-treatment neutralized the

inhibitory activity of Bh on VEGF signalling, suggesting that Bh infection may

activate a phosphatase that alleviates VEGFR2 phosphorylation. Inhibition of

VEGFR2 signalling by Bh infection was strictly dependent on a functional VirB

type IV secretion system and thereby translocated Bep effector proteins. The

data presented in this study underscore the role of the VirB/Bep system as

important factor controlling EC proliferation in response to Bh infection; not

only as previously reported by counter-acting an intrinsic bacterial mitogenic

stimulus,but also by restricting the exogenous angiogenic stimulation by

copyright's - I have a heart valve at stake here)

SOURCE:

http://eutils.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/eutils/elink.fcgi?dbfrom=pubmed & id=2104423\

8 & retmode=ref & cmd=prlinks

PMID: 21044238 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

----------------------------------------------------------------

Now - if someone can take the list I posted of the foods, spices, herbs, meds,

and beverages and compare it to the information in the brand new study above -

then that would seriously be worth reading !

-

" ...If the countermeasure fails this doesn't mean that the bug is manipulating

the body to do something stupid (I NEVER SAID IT WAS), it just means that one of

the defense lines is not effective.

Only if the bug causes a very unusual body action that actively helps the bugs,

maybe you could state that the bug is causing this action.(THEY DO - SEE

ABOVE)... "

December 10, 2010

Do you buy herbs in bulk to make this tea or do you have a source?

deb

>

> I have confirmed Bartonella as well. Although I am using the Lymes Protocol to

> attempt to rid my body of the evil little spirochetes I have found great

success

> with the following regimen, if anyone is interested. It has helped incredibly

> with pain and fatigue.

>

> Tea: Knotweed, Cats Claw, Red Root, Stephania, Smilex (3 oz 3x per day) with

> Holy Basil for anxiety

> Boluoke (2 x per day)

> Green Super Food (1 x per day)

> Vitamin C (2,000 mg per day)

> Cod Liver Oil (1 tbs liquid per day)

> Flax Oil (1 tsp per day)

> Multivitamin

> B-Complex

> A-F Betafood (for liver)

>

> Two months ago I didn't have the energy to get out of bed and my joints were

> killing me. This past week I played two competetive ice hockey games Sat. and

> Sun. and snowboarded all day on Mon., Tues., and Wed.,. I would not have been

> able to do that 2 months ago. I think the focus on building on the immune

system

> has made the biggest difference.

>

> PRIVACY &

December 10, 2010

, I'm interested in your protocol. who prescribed this? any

particular brands that you use??? how long did it take you to feel better?

thanks

Re: [ ] Re: Bartonella - VEGF

I have confirmed Bartonella as well. Although I am using the Lymes Protocol to

attempt to rid my body of the evil little spirochetes I have found great

success

with the following regimen, if anyone is interested. It has helped incredibly

with pain and fatigue.

Tea: Knotweed, Cats Claw, Red Root, Stephania, Smilex (3 oz 3x per day) with

Holy Basil for anxiety

Boluoke (2 x per day)

Green Super Food (1 x per day)

Vitamin C (2,000 mg per day)

Cod Liver Oil (1 tbs liquid per day)

Flax Oil (1 tsp per day)

Multivitamin

B-Complex

A-F Betafood (for liver)

Two months ago I didn't have the energy to get out of bed and my joints were

killing me. This past week I played two competetive ice hockey games Sat. and

Sun. and snowboarded all day on Mon., Tues., and Wed.,. I would not have been

able to do that 2 months ago. I think the focus on building on the immune

system

has made the biggest difference.

PRIVACY &

December 10, 2010

>

> What else can I say (except for, lets find some more resarch about it) ? - I

actually have tons, but just haven't disected it all. A lot of people doing this

cubby-holed/reductionist research haven't even looked at what the " other guy "

has done - it's maddening.

I haven't read that much about Bart, first of all because I haven't been

diagnosed with Bart myself.

Reading almost everything that comes out on Bb and some related subjects, I

usually get the impression that most researchers are focusing on the trees and

not seeing the forest. Most of the current science seems to be getting nowhere

for treatment. We need new approaches ...

> If you look at any single study they are nearly all looking at a snap-shot, or

some miniscule little aspect of the pathology of the organism. There is very

little which includes a solid inclusive, politically unbiased overview.

yes, fully agree.

> Again I provide this article (an informed/well referenced overview):

>

http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/medicine/units/medical_microbiology/courses/Mi\

croPath97.705/PDF/Bartonella_ref2.pdf

OK, I will check that one out

> You all realize that he also provides some excellent further reading in his

own words here don't you:

> http://planetthrive.com/category/experts/buhner/

I know, I have three Buhner books and really appreciate them; although part of

that conflicts with my scientific background...

I think is spoton with many observations, and IMHO LD and similar

diseases are more about a disturbed balance in nature than about 'new' diseases

for which we need new treatments. I guess that if somehow we can restore the

balance, the disease problem would go away, mostly. But probably there is more

money to be made in keeping disease and fighting it with medicines and vaccines

> You can re-read the above paragraph and fill in the blanks as to why I am so

interested, it hardly a " hobby " for me -- if you don't get it the first time

around.

keep in mind I'm foreign, so I have some problems 'reading between the lines'

....

> The data presented in this study underscore the role of the VirB/Bep system as

important factor controlling EC proliferation in response to Bh infection; not

only as previously reported by counter-acting an intrinsic bacterial mitogenic

stimulus,but also by restricting the exogenous angiogenic stimulation by

Bh-induced VEGF.

my impression from this article is that Bh not simply stimulates VEGF, but

messes with its signaling which (because of feedback loops) can increase VEGF

(which doesn't work like that for some other Bart species). And VEGF is part of

the body's defenses, so you can see this in two different ways.

December 10, 2010

Knot,

I overlooked the fact that you do not even have Bartonella.

If you would like to share (privately or otherwise) your own personal

issues/symptoms, etc. - I would be more than happy to see what I can come up

with - in exchange for this generous discussion regarding Bartonella (which has

been the best technical dialog I have had with any non-professional, and for

which I quickly learning to cherish).

Translation - I don't want to be all take and no give, since you don't even have

Bartonella.

The " between the lines " issue for me (from my prior post) - regarding " where I

am coming from " with my personal approach to figuring out what I can with

Bartonella(and my distaste for unreferenced/miracle cure type information) is

specifically the history of heart-valve destruction in my family, and my own

cardio issues which are getting worse.--So It's a potential life and death issue

for me, not just one of some troubling symptoms. Further, I have the ear of the

Texas Heart Institute (World renouned Heart Surgeon - Denton Cooley's primary

assistant and I converse 2 or 3 times weekly) - I can't send " crap " to those

people, it's life and death for me to deal exclusively in good-science, or I

will fall on deaf ares, and in effect lose this resource.

I don't know what to say about your " conflicts " with Buhner's spiritualinsights

versus your science background. I think he's right about a lot of the

short-falls of science -- in essence the rigid digitization of a very analog

world. - I suppose I would try to work within frameworks that promote the least

conflict, yet with the greatest inclusiveness.

Where are you from, if you don't mind me asking ?

(more direct response below)

Regards

" .....my impression from this article is that Bh not simply stimulates VEGF, but

messes with its signaling which (because of feedback loops) can increase VEGF

(which doesn't work like that for some other Bart species). And VEGF is part of

the body's defenses, so you can see this in two different ways.... " - A

TERRIFYING TRICKY AND PARADOXICAL THING TO CONSIDER, AND HAS PREVIOUSLY LED ME

TO THINK:

1. THAT ULTIMATELY WHAT NEEDS TO BE DETERMINED IS A SPECIALIZED " OPTIMAL " SERUM

VEGF-RANGE FOR BARTONELLA PATIENTS (RATHER THAN A SCORCHED EARTH-TOTAL

DOWN-REGULATION).

2. TRIALS OF A PULSING OF MASSIVE VEGF-REDUCTION EXTENDING FOR A SHORT DURATIONS

BUT WHICH EXCEED THE REPLICATION/LIFE CYCLE OF THE ORGANISM. MIGHT BE SOMETHING

WORTHY.

3. YOUR POINT ALSO RAISES QUESTIONS OF JUST HOW EFFECTIVE VEGF REDUCTION

ULTIMATELY IS FOR BEATING BARTONELLA. -THERE ARE MANY OTHER AVENUES TO PURSUE,

THIS IS JUST ONE. I AM FOCUSED ON IT BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN MY REPEAT VEGF SERUM

DIAGNOSTICS FLUCTUATE IN DIRECT CORRESPONDENCE TO MY BARTONELLA DIAGNOSTICS.

THE SIDE-EFFECT STUDIES ON DRUGS LIKE AVASTIN (THE ANTI-TUMOUR/VEGF REDUCING

DRUG) DEMONSTRATE POTENTIAL ISSUES WITH REDUCING VEGF TOO MUCH (ALBEIT - SOME OR

EVEN MOST OF THESE SIDE EFFECTS MAY BE UNRELATED SPECIFICALLY TO THE VEGF

REGULATION ACTION OF THE DRUG, AND MIGHT INSTEAD BE FROM OTHER ACTIVITIES FROM

THE DRUG:

AVASTIN SIDE EFFECTS:

http://www.avastin.com/avastin/patient/gbm/sideeffects/serious/index.html

SOMETHING I INDEED NEED TO LOOK INTO FURTHER, AMONG MANY.

December 10, 2010

Anita,

I get my protocol from an herbalist in Vermont. It was prescribed by Dr. Wulfman

out of , Vermont. It took me 1 1/2 months to feel better. I had terrible

die off effects in the beginning but adding some of the other supplements helped

enormously.

Cassano

snowgirlvt@...

PRIVACY &

December 10, 2010

It is the tea that I am drinking. I order it through an herbalist in Vermont. I

am not sure if she ships out of state. It takes 2 hours to make the tea. I make

1 gallon at a time so it lasts about 10 days.

Cassano

snowgirlvt@...

PRIVACY &

December 10, 2010

CASE STUDY:

After 1 month of the Buhner protocol (the initial month of a planned 6 month

trial) and subsequently working up to full protocol dosage a patient's serum

VEGF has yielded the following:

BUHNER PROTOCOL DOSING TIMELINE DETAILS:

Initiated - Oct. 14 (3/4 strength whole herb Japanese Knotweed only)

Initiated - Red Root and Boneset approx. Nov. 10th,

Initiated - full strength protocol acheived on approx. Nov. 28.

LAB: Quest Diagnostics

VEGF REFERENCE RANGE:

normal serum level range = 31-86 pq/ml

_____________________________

DATE --- VEGF SERUM (pq/ml)

_____________________________

July 19--- 111 abn-high

Oct. 12--- 143 abn-high*

Nov. 22--- 98 abn-high (but a hell of a lot better)

_____________________________

*same date of blood drawn = Positive Igenix-FISH test.

Blood also drawn this date for Univ. of NC Vetr. Lab testing

culture pending, due Dec. 12.

note 1: prior postive Bartonella IgG/IgM tests throughout 2009 diminished to

normal ranges in early 2010 via Doxycyline treatment, accompanied by

corresponding fluctuations in VEGF levels. Treatment was ceased in Jan. 2010.

note 2: new tick bite - engorged male Lonestar tick discovered and removed on

Nov. 13, tick specimen tested positive for Rocky Mtn. Spotted Fever (only).

Initiated 8 week course of preventative Oral Doryx, and Buhner early tick bite

protocol for 3 days beginning on Nov. 22, continued uninterupted with Buhner

Bartonella protocol. Doryx treatment halted due to systemic candida infection

after 2.5 weeks.

Patient: ME

Useful ?

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