Re: New to Forum - Chronic Bartonella Relapse Issues

November 27, 2010

,

My doctor in Manhattan used Byron White's A-BAB with good success on a patient

of his. The patient takes a high dose and apparently is much better as long as

she continues taking it. The products are only distributed through health care

practitioners. Here is the link.

http://www.bioresourceinc.com/bwherbal/

>

> Hi - my name is , and I live in Southern NJ.

>

> I am a huge fan of Buhner and have owned many

> of his books (in addition to the Healing Lyme book) for

> a few years now.

>

> I just started the specific protocol for Bartonella outlined in the book,

after having gone thru a full year of convention medical treatment, which

consisted of 12 months of antibiotics (8 mo's of which

> was via IV).

>

> This treatment was stopped only when tests turned negative - and then a period

of no treatment ensued for roughly 6 months (although symptoms had hardly

improved).

>

> However - just about 3 weeks ago I tested positive again via an Igenix

Bartonella-FISH test (which is only a newly available test, but is stated to be

a direct detection of the rod shaped organisms via a blood smear, but is non

specific in term of which of 4 types of Bartonella species I could have).

>

> Needless to say - after 10 montsh of antibiotic treatment - the new positive

test was rather devastating news to receive, but at the same time now does give

me something to re-focus treatment on to deal with all of these symptoms.

>

> Additionally - I have blood currently being cultured at the Intracellular

Pathogens Research Lab - NC State University; College

> of Veterinary Medicine, which should yield results in early December.

>

> Since beginning the Buhner protocol roughly 3 weeks ago I am really happy to

report that certain nagging symptoms have improved - specifically chronic IBS

wich has plagued me for the past 5 years.

> I am working my way up dosage and am roughly at 1/2 dose - with the whole-herb

Knotweed, Red Root, and Boneset. - I have never used these herbs before this.

>

> It is not entirely clear that I obtained the infection from

> a tick - but I suspect so.

>

> However - if the above is not enough on it's own - about 10 days ago I found a

fully engorged male Lonestar Tick embedded near my ankle. This tick is currently

being analyzed - and we are awaiting results (upon finding this I immediately

proceeded with the " early bite " protocol from the Buhner text) and as a

preventative am now also taking 150mg of Doryx 2x/day.

>

> My interest in joining the forum here has to do with that I would be

especially appreciate input if anyone has dealt with chronic or relapsing

Bartonella with any success ??? - and also if there are additional herbs that

have been helpful beyond the core protocol in the book.

>

> I suspect I will probably be maintaining the protocol, and also resuming with

a new anti-biotic (which my LLMD is researching for me) for the Bartonella, the

current Doryx is simply for preventative reasons for this recent Lonestar tick

bite, considering that I am already immuno-suppressed, and can't afford to be

taking any risks.

> I am freankly terrified at the prospects of Bartonella infecting my heart

vavles if I were to become even more ill with any new TBI's.

>

> Thanks much for reading all of this - and I hope I can add some positive

things, become an asset to what appears to be a really wonderful forum here.

>

> Regards

>

November 27, 2010

,

Thank you for the response - I jsut want to clarify tho, that you aren't meaning

to suggest the " A-Bab " product for Bartonella ?...and that you indeed are

speaking of a person who has been dealing with a relapsing or chronic Bartonella

infection? Because, I can see on the website you linked to that there is also a

seperate product which appears to be specialized for Bartonella.

I'll take a look at all of this - but do have some initial concerns -given that

I have a lot of sensitivities, and this a product that has a bit of a " shotgun "

approach with so many active ingredients, and without any quantitative info or

proportions that I can see ?

I think tho - that i'll look over each listed ingredient, and will probably do

some searching for clinical studies supporting the ingredients as active against

Bartonella (and/or for down-regulating " Vascular Endothelial Growth Factor " [see

VEGF - pg 200, Healing Lyme] -my VEGF diagnostics have been thru-the-ceiling,

abnormally-high for multiple and consectutive months now - it, frankly worries

me from time to time that the Bartonella could just be part of the story with

this).

Within this " Bart-A " product - I do know that Grapefuit Seed Extract can be

particularly brutal on gut flora. It literally kills EVERYTHING !

Grape seed " alcohol " is new to me - but I do know that grapefruit seed " extract "

does help with down-regulating VEGF. (in fact I have a list of foods and

supplements which down-regulate VEGF from some cancer research publications,

which I should post on the forum here for the benefit of anyone else who might

be struggling with Bart. - i'll dig it up and post it)

I guess the remaining balance of ingredients if not specific for " Bartonellae,

et. al. " pathogen might be for Lymph support ?(but please note: another one of

the contents listed for this " A-Bart " product - called Pokeweed (or Poke " root " )

as indicated on the link can also be a dangerous herb - FOSTER/DUKE state that

it " can damage chromosomes " , and that " all parts are poisonous " - and I suspect

specifically recommends Red Root for lymph support instead for some good

reasons). Probably the remaining balance of ingredients are generally designed

for common symptoms ?

The wonderful thing about 's book (I feel) - is that there are individual

herbs, and recommended dosages which allow a person to try one at a time - to

test for reactions, plus there also are 34 pages of referenced supporting

studies in the back of the book. ---- as opposed to experimenting with a sort of

" black box " proprietary formula ?

That said - I have not looked at some of these ingeredients individually before

as potentially helpful things, and I certainly appreciate the tip ~ I'll look at

it closely and let you know what I conclude.

Probably should have joined this forum a long time ago.

-

> >

> > Hi - my name is , and I live in Southern NJ.

> >

> > I am a huge fan of Buhner and have owned many

> > of his books (in addition to the Healing Lyme book) for

> > a few years now.

> >

> > I just started the specific protocol for Bartonella outlined in the book,

after having gone thru a full year of convention medical treatment, which

consisted of 12 months of antibiotics (8 mo's of which

> > was via IV).

> >

> > This treatment was stopped only when tests turned negative - and then a

period of no treatment ensued for roughly 6 months (although symptoms had hardly

improved).

> >

> > However - just about 3 weeks ago I tested positive again via an Igenix

Bartonella-FISH test (which is only a newly available test, but is stated to be

a direct detection of the rod shaped organisms via a blood smear, but is non

specific in term of which of 4 types of Bartonella species I could have).

> >

> > Needless to say - after 10 montsh of antibiotic treatment - the new positive

test was rather devastating news to receive, but at the same time now does give

me something to re-focus treatment on to deal with all of these symptoms.

> >

> > Additionally - I have blood currently being cultured at the Intracellular

Pathogens Research Lab - NC State University; College

> > of Veterinary Medicine, which should yield results in early December.

> >

> > Since beginning the Buhner protocol roughly 3 weeks ago I am really happy to

report that certain nagging symptoms have improved - specifically chronic IBS

wich has plagued me for the past 5 years.

> > I am working my way up dosage and am roughly at 1/2 dose - with the

whole-herb Knotweed, Red Root, and Boneset. - I have never used these herbs

before this.

> >

> > It is not entirely clear that I obtained the infection from

> > a tick - but I suspect so.

> >

> > However - if the above is not enough on it's own - about 10 days ago I found

a fully engorged male Lonestar Tick embedded near my ankle. This tick is

currently being analyzed - and we are awaiting results (upon finding this I

immediately proceeded with the " early bite " protocol from the Buhner text) and

as a preventative am now also taking 150mg of Doryx 2x/day.

> >

> > My interest in joining the forum here has to do with that I would be

especially appreciate input if anyone has dealt with chronic or relapsing

Bartonella with any success ??? - and also if there are additional herbs that

have been helpful beyond the core protocol in the book.

> >

> > I suspect I will probably be maintaining the protocol, and also resuming

with a new anti-biotic (which my LLMD is researching for me) for the Bartonella,

the current Doryx is simply for preventative reasons for this recent Lonestar

tick bite, considering that I am already immuno-suppressed, and can't afford to

be taking any risks.

> > I am freankly terrified at the prospects of Bartonella infecting my heart

vavles if I were to become even more ill with any new TBI's.

> >

> > Thanks much for reading all of this - and I hope I can add some positive

things, become an asset to what appears to be a really wonderful forum here.

> >

> > Regards

> >

>

November 28, 2010

>

> The wonderful thing about 's book (I feel) - is that there are

individual herbs, and recommended dosages which allow a person to try one at a

time - to test for reactions, plus there also are 34 pages of referenced

supporting studies in the back of the book. ---- as opposed to experimenting

with a sort of " black box " proprietary formula ?

Definitely, the Buhner protocol is well researched and the herbs have a long

history of use, so they must be relatively safe. There are good arguments for

using these herbs in a spirochete infection. It hasn't really been tested, but

you could say the same about antibiotics treatment (almost every study that was

published is rubbish or at least severely flawed) or most of the recent 'miracle

cures' (most of them have no proven track record of safety or proven action).

Probably with Bartonella (like with Borrelia), one of the problems is that there

are many (sub)species, and we know little about most of them. The tests are

unreliable, and some of the treatments may work against only some of the

subspecies - but we don't know which ones.

P.S.: I also have some symptoms that are typical of Bartonella like the

recurring foot(pad) pains, but in two tests nothing was found.

November 28, 2010

,

I have been taking A-BAB at 15 drops twice a day. Do you know your doctor

considers a 'high dose?' Thanks, jo

>

> ,

>

> My doctor in Manhattan used Byron White's A-BAB with good success on a patient

of his. The patient takes a high dose and apparently is much better as long as

she continues taking it. The products are only distributed through health care

practitioners. Here is the link.

November 28, 2010

Hi ,

Does anyone know if the knotweed, stephania, and red root actually kill the

bartonella? It seems that in the book they are just for lymphatic drainage.

This has never been clear to me.

>

> Hi - my name is , and I live in Southern NJ.

>

> I am a huge fan of Buhner and have owned many

> of his books (in addition to the Healing Lyme book) for

> a few years now.

>

> I just started the specific protocol for Bartonella outlined in the book,

after having gone thru a full year of convention medical treatment, which

consisted of 12 months of antibiotics (8 mo's of which

> was via IV).

>

> This treatment was stopped only when tests turned negative - and then a period

of no treatment ensued for roughly 6 months (although symptoms had hardly

improved).

>

> However - just about 3 weeks ago I tested positive again via an Igenix

Bartonella-FISH test (which is only a newly available test, but is stated to be

a direct detection of the rod shaped organisms via a blood smear, but is non

specific in term of which of 4 types of Bartonella species I could have).

>

> Needless to say - after 10 montsh of antibiotic treatment - the new positive

test was rather devastating news to receive, but at the same time now does give

me something to re-focus treatment on to deal with all of these symptoms.

>

> Additionally - I have blood currently being cultured at the Intracellular

Pathogens Research Lab - NC State University; College

> of Veterinary Medicine, which should yield results in early December.

>

> Since beginning the Buhner protocol roughly 3 weeks ago I am really happy to

report that certain nagging symptoms have improved - specifically chronic IBS

wich has plagued me for the past 5 years.

> I am working my way up dosage and am roughly at 1/2 dose - with the whole-herb

Knotweed, Red Root, and Boneset. - I have never used these herbs before this.

>

> It is not entirely clear that I obtained the infection from

> a tick - but I suspect so.

>

> However - if the above is not enough on it's own - about 10 days ago I found a

fully engorged male Lonestar Tick embedded near my ankle. This tick is currently

being analyzed - and we are awaiting results (upon finding this I immediately

proceeded with the " early bite " protocol from the Buhner text) and as a

preventative am now also taking 150mg of Doryx 2x/day.

>

> My interest in joining the forum here has to do with that I would be

especially appreciate input if anyone has dealt with chronic or relapsing

Bartonella with any success ??? - and also if there are additional herbs that

have been helpful beyond the core protocol in the book.

>

> I suspect I will probably be maintaining the protocol, and also resuming with

a new anti-biotic (which my LLMD is researching for me) for the Bartonella, the

current Doryx is simply for preventative reasons for this recent Lonestar tick

bite, considering that I am already immuno-suppressed, and can't afford to be

taking any risks.

> I am freankly terrified at the prospects of Bartonella infecting my heart

vavles if I were to become even more ill with any new TBI's.

>

> Thanks much for reading all of this - and I hope I can add some positive

things, become an asset to what appears to be a really wonderful forum here.

>

> Regards

>

November 28, 2010

Does anyone know if the knotweed, stephania, and red root actually kill the

bartonella? It seems that in the book they are just for lymphatic drainage.

This has never been clear to me.

>

> Hi - my name is , and I live in Southern NJ.

>

> I am a huge fan of Buhner and have owned many

> of his books (in addition to the Healing Lyme book) for

> a few years now.

>

> I just started the specific protocol for Bartonella outlined in the book,

after having gone thru a full year of convention medical treatment, which

consisted of 12 months of antibiotics (8 mo's of which

> was via IV).

>

> This treatment was stopped only when tests turned negative - and then a period

of no treatment ensued for roughly 6 months (although symptoms had hardly

improved).

>

> However - just about 3 weeks ago I tested positive again via an Igenix

Bartonella-FISH test (which is only a newly available test, but is stated to be

a direct detection of the rod shaped organisms via a blood smear, but is non

specific in term of which of 4 types of Bartonella species I could have).

>

> Needless to say - after 10 montsh of antibiotic treatment - the new positive

test was rather devastating news to receive, but at the same time now does give

me something to re-focus treatment on to deal with all of these symptoms.

>

> Additionally - I have blood currently being cultured at the Intracellular

Pathogens Research Lab - NC State University; College

> of Veterinary Medicine, which should yield results in early December.

>

> Since beginning the Buhner protocol roughly 3 weeks ago I am really happy to

report that certain nagging symptoms have improved - specifically chronic IBS

wich has plagued me for the past 5 years.

> I am working my way up dosage and am roughly at 1/2 dose - with the whole-herb

Knotweed, Red Root, and Boneset. - I have never used these herbs before this.

>

> It is not entirely clear that I obtained the infection from

> a tick - but I suspect so.

>

> However - if the above is not enough on it's own - about 10 days ago I found a

fully engorged male Lonestar Tick embedded near my ankle. This tick is currently

being analyzed - and we are awaiting results (upon finding this I immediately

proceeded with the " early bite " protocol from the Buhner text) and as a

preventative am now also taking 150mg of Doryx 2x/day.

>

> My interest in joining the forum here has to do with that I would be

especially appreciate input if anyone has dealt with chronic or relapsing

Bartonella with any success ??? - and also if there are additional herbs that

have been helpful beyond the core protocol in the book.

>

> I suspect I will probably be maintaining the protocol, and also resuming with

a new anti-biotic (which my LLMD is researching for me) for the Bartonella, the

current Doryx is simply for preventative reasons for this recent Lonestar tick

bite, considering that I am already immuno-suppressed, and can't afford to be

taking any risks.

> I am freankly terrified at the prospects of Bartonella infecting my heart

vavles if I were to become even more ill with any new TBI's.

>

> Thanks much for reading all of this - and I hope I can add some positive

things, become an asset to what appears to be a really wonderful forum here.

>

> Regards

>

November 28, 2010

,

Forgive me, I meant A-Bart.

> > >

> > > Hi - my name is , and I live in Southern NJ.

> > >

> > > I am a huge fan of Buhner and have owned many

> > > of his books (in addition to the Healing Lyme book) for

> > > a few years now.

> > >

> > > I just started the specific protocol for Bartonella outlined in the book,

after having gone thru a full year of convention medical treatment, which

consisted of 12 months of antibiotics (8 mo's of which

> > > was via IV).

> > >

> > > This treatment was stopped only when tests turned negative - and then a

period of no treatment ensued for roughly 6 months (although symptoms had hardly

improved).

> > >

> > > However - just about 3 weeks ago I tested positive again via an Igenix

Bartonella-FISH test (which is only a newly available test, but is stated to be

a direct detection of the rod shaped organisms via a blood smear, but is non

specific in term of which of 4 types of Bartonella species I could have).

> > >

> > > Needless to say - after 10 montsh of antibiotic treatment - the new

positive test was rather devastating news to receive, but at the same time now

does give me something to re-focus treatment on to deal with all of these

symptoms.

> > >

> > > Additionally - I have blood currently being cultured at the Intracellular

Pathogens Research Lab - NC State University; College

> > > of Veterinary Medicine, which should yield results in early December.

> > >

> > > Since beginning the Buhner protocol roughly 3 weeks ago I am really happy

to report that certain nagging symptoms have improved - specifically chronic IBS

wich has plagued me for the past 5 years.

> > > I am working my way up dosage and am roughly at 1/2 dose - with the

whole-herb Knotweed, Red Root, and Boneset. - I have never used these herbs

before this.

> > >

> > > It is not entirely clear that I obtained the infection from

> > > a tick - but I suspect so.

> > >

> > > However - if the above is not enough on it's own - about 10 days ago I

found a fully engorged male Lonestar Tick embedded near my ankle. This tick is

currently being analyzed - and we are awaiting results (upon finding this I

immediately proceeded with the " early bite " protocol from the Buhner text) and

as a preventative am now also taking 150mg of Doryx 2x/day.

> > >

> > > My interest in joining the forum here has to do with that I would be

especially appreciate input if anyone has dealt with chronic or relapsing

Bartonella with any success ??? - and also if there are additional herbs that

have been helpful beyond the core protocol in the book.

> > >

> > > I suspect I will probably be maintaining the protocol, and also resuming

with a new anti-biotic (which my LLMD is researching for me) for the Bartonella,

the current Doryx is simply for preventative reasons for this recent Lonestar

tick bite, considering that I am already immuno-suppressed, and can't afford to

be taking any risks.

> > > I am freankly terrified at the prospects of Bartonella infecting my heart

vavles if I were to become even more ill with any new TBI's.

> > >

> > > Thanks much for reading all of this - and I hope I can add some positive

things, become an asset to what appears to be a really wonderful forum here.

> > >

> > > Regards

> > >

> >

>

November 29, 2010

>

> Does anyone know if the knotweed, stephania, and red root actually kill the

bartonella? It seems that in the book they are just for lymphatic drainage.

kill: unlikely IMHO. I think knotweed and stephania make the environment less

friendly for bartonella, and red rood is for drainage (I guess it stimulates the

lymph nodes, which causes toxins and debris to be flushed and hopefully takes

some bugs with it, or at least helps the immune system to deal with existing

infections).

November 29, 2010

Jo,

I inadvertently wrote A-BAB in response to ' post and meant A-BART.

Here is what the product sheet for A-BAB states:

Target dose: 15 drops twice daily.

Challenge dose: 20 or more drops in relation to the patient's response.

My doctor is using doses of 30 drops twice per day for his patient on A-BART

that is doing well. I am on A-BAB and have been on A-L and must take very small

doses, and increase very slowly because I am very sensitive to both.

> >

> > ,

> >

> > My doctor in Manhattan used Byron White's A-BAB with good success on a

patient of his. The patient takes a high dose and apparently is much better as

long as she continues taking it. The products are only distributed through

health care practitioners. Here is the link.

>

November 29, 2010

As the Red Root, Stephania and Knotweed works on lymphatic drainage does it also

effect the liver and gallbladder? I have been having terrible gallbladder and

liver pain and have contemplated the need to go to the doctor vs thinking it's

just part of the die off process.

Cassano

VT PBiS Coach

802-236-6637

snowgirlvt@...

PRIVACY &

November 29, 2010

So toxins from lyme collect in the lymph nodes, I thought they collected in the

liver? ...from Dr Shoemaker's book on Biotoxin pathways.

From: knot_weed <tek0nik@...>

Subject: [ ] Re: New to Forum - Chronic Bartonella Relapse Issues

Date: Monday, November 29, 2010, 5:43 AM

Â

>

> Does anyone know if the knotweed, stephania, and red root actually kill the

bartonella? It seems that in the book they are just for lymphatic drainage.

kill: unlikely IMHO. I think knotweed and stephania make the environment less

friendly for bartonella, and red rood is for drainage (I guess it stimulates the

lymph nodes, which causes toxins and debris to be flushed and hopefully takes

some bugs with it, or at least helps the immune system to deal with existing

infections).

November 29, 2010

>

> So toxins from lyme collect in the lymph nodes, I thought they collected in

the liver? ...from Dr Shoemaker's book on Biotoxin pathways.

that depends on the kind of 'toxins'. The lymph nodes will probably accumulate

most of the bacterial debris, while certain toxins could accumulate in other

organs (depending on if they can be chemically processed, if they are

fat-soluble etc.).

biotoxins is a nice word but it is ill-defined and IMHO there is no proof at all

that Borrelia produces really nasty biotoxins. It probably has a lot of cellular

components that are 'strange' for us and that could cause reactions, but the

same goes for many other bacteria. I would not call those 'toxins' because in

that case almost everything that you eat, drink or inhale contains 'biotoxins'.

November 30, 2010

hi roger-i am in brick and doing B herbs for over a year after abx tx. i have

been trying to find a support group here without any luck. no lyme or buhner

support. do you know of any? thanks. lp

> >

> > Hi - my name is , and I live in Southern NJ.

> >

> > I am a huge fan of Buhner and have owned many

> > of his books (in addition to the Healing Lyme book) for

> > a few years now.

> >

> > I just started the specific protocol for Bartonella outlined in the book,

after having gone thru a full year of convention medical treatment, which

consisted of 12 months of antibiotics (8 mo's of which

> > was via IV).

> >

> > This treatment was stopped only when tests turned negative - and then a

period of no treatment ensued for roughly 6 months (although symptoms had hardly

improved).

> >

> > However - just about 3 weeks ago I tested positive again via an Igenix

Bartonella-FISH test (which is only a newly available test, but is stated to be

a direct detection of the rod shaped organisms via a blood smear, but is non

specific in term of which of 4 types of Bartonella species I could have).

> >

> > Needless to say - after 10 montsh of antibiotic treatment - the new positive

test was rather devastating news to receive, but at the same time now does give

me something to re-focus treatment on to deal with all of these symptoms.

> >

> > Additionally - I have blood currently being cultured at the Intracellular

Pathogens Research Lab - NC State University; College

> > of Veterinary Medicine, which should yield results in early December.

> >

> > Since beginning the Buhner protocol roughly 3 weeks ago I am really happy to

report that certain nagging symptoms have improved - specifically chronic IBS

wich has plagued me for the past 5 years.

> > I am working my way up dosage and am roughly at 1/2 dose - with the

whole-herb Knotweed, Red Root, and Boneset. - I have never used these herbs

before this.

> >

> > It is not entirely clear that I obtained the infection from

> > a tick - but I suspect so.

> >

> > However - if the above is not enough on it's own - about 10 days ago I found

a fully engorged male Lonestar Tick embedded near my ankle. This tick is

currently being analyzed - and we are awaiting results (upon finding this I

immediately proceeded with the " early bite " protocol from the Buhner text) and

as a preventative am now also taking 150mg of Doryx 2x/day.

> >

> > My interest in joining the forum here has to do with that I would be

especially appreciate input if anyone has dealt with chronic or relapsing

Bartonella with any success ??? - and also if there are additional herbs that

have been helpful beyond the core protocol in the book.

> >

> > I suspect I will probably be maintaining the protocol, and also resuming

with a new anti-biotic (which my LLMD is researching for me) for the Bartonella,

the current Doryx is simply for preventative reasons for this recent Lonestar

tick bite, considering that I am already immuno-suppressed, and can't afford to

be taking any risks.

> > I am freankly terrified at the prospects of Bartonella infecting my heart

vavles if I were to become even more ill with any new TBI's.

> >

> > Thanks much for reading all of this - and I hope I can add some positive

things, become an asset to what appears to be a really wonderful forum here.

> >

> > Regards

> >

>

December 1, 2010

Thanks for the info- sent it on to my ND. Am also having liver and gall bladder

problems and am on Hepasan or Iberogast drops. Works fantastic!

> >

> > ,

> >

> > My doctor in Manhattan used Byron White's A-BAB with good success on a

patient of his. The patient takes a high dose and apparently is much better as

long as she continues taking it. The products are only distributed through

health care practitioners. Here is the link.

>

December 1, 2010

,

Have you heard of A-Bart? I have heard some people talk about this product (and

it supposedly causes major herxing). I know you need a provider to get it.

deb

> > >

> > > Hi - my name is , and I live in Southern NJ.

> > >

> > > I am a huge fan of Buhner and have owned many

> > > of his books (in addition to the Healing Lyme book) for

> > > a few years now.

> > >

> > > I just started the specific protocol for Bartonella outlined in the book,

after having gone thru a full year of convention medical treatment, which

consisted of 12 months of antibiotics (8 mo's of which

> > > was via IV).

> > >

> > > This treatment was stopped only when tests turned negative - and then a

period of no treatment ensued for roughly 6 months (although symptoms had hardly

improved).

> > >

> > > However - just about 3 weeks ago I tested positive again via an Igenix

Bartonella-FISH test (which is only a newly available test, but is stated to be

a direct detection of the rod shaped organisms via a blood smear, but is non

specific in term of which of 4 types of Bartonella species I could have).

> > >

> > > Needless to say - after 10 montsh of antibiotic treatment - the new

positive test was rather devastating news to receive, but at the same time now

does give me something to re-focus treatment on to deal with all of these

symptoms.

> > >

> > > Additionally - I have blood currently being cultured at the Intracellular

Pathogens Research Lab - NC State University; College

> > > of Veterinary Medicine, which should yield results in early December.

> > >

> > > Since beginning the Buhner protocol roughly 3 weeks ago I am really happy

to report that certain nagging symptoms have improved - specifically chronic IBS

wich has plagued me for the past 5 years.

> > > I am working my way up dosage and am roughly at 1/2 dose - with the

whole-herb Knotweed, Red Root, and Boneset. - I have never used these herbs

before this.

> > >

> > > It is not entirely clear that I obtained the infection from

> > > a tick - but I suspect so.

> > >

> > > However - if the above is not enough on it's own - about 10 days ago I

found a fully engorged male Lonestar Tick embedded near my ankle. This tick is

currently being analyzed - and we are awaiting results (upon finding this I

immediately proceeded with the " early bite " protocol from the Buhner text) and

as a preventative am now also taking 150mg of Doryx 2x/day.

> > >

> > > My interest in joining the forum here has to do with that I would be

especially appreciate input if anyone has dealt with chronic or relapsing

Bartonella with any success ??? - and also if there are additional herbs that

have been helpful beyond the core protocol in the book.

> > >

> > > I suspect I will probably be maintaining the protocol, and also resuming

with a new anti-biotic (which my LLMD is researching for me) for the Bartonella,

the current Doryx is simply for preventative reasons for this recent Lonestar

tick bite, considering that I am already immuno-suppressed, and can't afford to

be taking any risks.

> > > I am freankly terrified at the prospects of Bartonella infecting my heart

vavles if I were to become even more ill with any new TBI's.

> > >

> > > Thanks much for reading all of this - and I hope I can add some positive

things, become an asset to what appears to be a really wonderful forum here.

> > >

> > > Regards

> > >

> >

>

December 2, 2010

Woods recommends Blue Vervain for co-infections.

Which is interesting because Blue Vervain and Boneset are very similar.

I will say I LOVE boneset infusions.

At the very least they help with symptoms.

I too am looking for something more specific to it Bart.

Bart is my biggest enemy right now.

> > > >

> > > > Hi - my name is , and I live in Southern NJ.

> > > >

> > > > I am a huge fan of Buhner and have owned many

> > > > of his books (in addition to the Healing Lyme book) for

> > > > a few years now.

> > > >

> > > > I just started the specific protocol for Bartonella outlined in the

book, after having gone thru a full year of convention medical treatment, which

consisted of 12 months of antibiotics (8 mo's of which

> > > > was via IV).

> > > >

> > > > This treatment was stopped only when tests turned negative - and then a

period of no treatment ensued for roughly 6 months (although symptoms had hardly

improved).

> > > >

> > > > However - just about 3 weeks ago I tested positive again via an Igenix

Bartonella-FISH test (which is only a newly available test, but is stated to be

a direct detection of the rod shaped organisms via a blood smear, but is non

specific in term of which of 4 types of Bartonella species I could have).

> > > >

> > > > Needless to say - after 10 montsh of antibiotic treatment - the new

positive test was rather devastating news to receive, but at the same time now

does give me something to re-focus treatment on to deal with all of these

symptoms.

> > > >

> > > > Additionally - I have blood currently being cultured at the

Intracellular Pathogens Research Lab - NC State University; College

> > > > of Veterinary Medicine, which should yield results in early December.

> > > >

> > > > Since beginning the Buhner protocol roughly 3 weeks ago I am really

happy to report that certain nagging symptoms have improved - specifically

chronic IBS wich has plagued me for the past 5 years.

> > > > I am working my way up dosage and am roughly at 1/2 dose - with the

whole-herb Knotweed, Red Root, and Boneset. - I have never used these herbs

before this.

> > > >

> > > > It is not entirely clear that I obtained the infection from

> > > > a tick - but I suspect so.

> > > >

> > > > However - if the above is not enough on it's own - about 10 days ago I

found a fully engorged male Lonestar Tick embedded near my ankle. This tick is

currently being analyzed - and we are awaiting results (upon finding this I

immediately proceeded with the " early bite " protocol from the Buhner text) and

as a preventative am now also taking 150mg of Doryx 2x/day.

> > > >

> > > > My interest in joining the forum here has to do with that I would be

especially appreciate input if anyone has dealt with chronic or relapsing

Bartonella with any success ??? - and also if there are additional herbs that

have been helpful beyond the core protocol in the book.

> > > >

> > > > I suspect I will probably be maintaining the protocol, and also

resuming with a new anti-biotic (which my LLMD is researching for me) for the

Bartonella, the current Doryx is simply for preventative reasons for this recent

Lonestar tick bite, considering that I am already immuno-suppressed, and can't

afford to be taking any risks.

> > > > I am freankly terrified at the prospects of Bartonella infecting my

heart vavles if I were to become even more ill with any new TBI's.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks much for reading all of this - and I hope I can add some positive

things, become an asset to what appears to be a really wonderful forum here.

> > > >

> > > > Regards

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

December 3, 2010

,

In response to your question -

" ...if the knotweed, stephania, and red root actually kill the bartonella? It

seems that in the book they are just for lymphatic drainage. This has never

been clear to me.... "

The short answer, according to his book (on page 197) is " no they are not all

just for lymphatic drainage " - only the Red-Root is indicated specifically for

lymph support (and also for use if there is liver or spleen inflamation). - If

the other indicated herbs also help with lypmh support I am not aware of that.

What I have a difficult time finding in the book is details of the actions

involved with the secondary recommendation for the use of Stephania Root for

Bartonella. - It is included within it's " Actions " (top of page 148) as an

" anti-parasitic,antibacterial, and an angiogenisis modulator " . The third of

which is a big issue with managing Bartonella pathology. But something which

also concerns me there a little-bit is that Stephania is noted to be " used with

caution with Lyme-carditis " . - I can only assume that this sort of heart

inflammation is a different phenomenon than the endocarditis which can be so

deadly in the destruction of heart-vales with Bartonella.

I can try to answer more of this for you - but am basically refering back to

's book to do so, his writings are generalized enough for me to readily

understand, and also one of the very " few " commercially printed texts which I

inherently trust without cross-referencing back to other source materal to make

sure it's not B.S. - but it's a great excercise for me to review it and try to

explain it.

The notion that some people have of a " silver-bullet " which simply " wipes-out "

the organism is just not really the way it works.

Hardly ever with any pathogen.

basically says elsewhere in his writings, etc. (and I agree)that the

modern-medicine paradigm of " over-simplification " (and " reductionism " - a word

he uses a ton) the whole issue of Lyme is really just wrong, if not arrogant.

Particualarly because these organisms have so many survival mechanisms and got a

few million years head start before humans to develop these adaptations. They

are in fact a lot more complex than some other infectious-diseases, a small

minority of which could simply be wiped out with a dose of penicillin.

In fact - this is part of the same problem with the model of " this anti-biotic

kills this bug in this petri-dish....and therefore.. " , and such similar

thinking. In fact people have rushed to market with " Lyme-products " based on

such experiments (and some with even less data) which I am always very leary of

- but I still try to explore all of it, and to get to the bottom of the science

behind it. Even the alternative health industry has some issues thinking

reductionist like this -For example I had a hell of a time finding " whole-herb "

knotweed, among hundreds of reduced Resveratrol products. Everyone wants the

mega-super-ultra highpowered silver bullet magin, and overlooks the synergistic

properties of the vast constiuents within a plant as nature created it

I'll resume the guts of this response by saying that ultimately it is your own

immune system which has to do the finishing job of erradicating any infection:

(the very crude analogy I ususually use [unfortunately] - is a " war " analogy

-and that bascially your immune system are your " ground troops " and anything you

take is either akin to bringing in " air support " or adding more/or enhancing

" ground-troops " -- and you'll probably recall how it's been said in recent

history, that " you can't win a war from 40,000 feet " - and that it's ultimately

going to require troops on the ground) - but I digress (a lot):

says specifically regarding KNOTWEED in BARTONELLA that it:

1. Inhibits NF-kB (nuclear factor kappa-alpha)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NF-%CE%BAB

which is an inflammatory cellular protein upregulated by Bartonella which allows

itself to penetrate into the endothelial cells (cells which line the inside of

blood vessels)where it likes to colonize.

(it's hard to raise a family when you don't have a home)

2. Stops the angiogenisis action of Bartonella

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angiogenesis

Bartonella induces the creation of additional/new endothelial cells to provide

itself additional neighboring colonization sites (more real-estate, to set up

camp for family and friends to live in)

3. Is a potent inhibitor of VEGF (vascular endothelial growth factor)- which is

involved in the processes explained above under my #2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vascular_endothelial_growth_factor

(I have a ton of information which I collated on reducing VEGF and tried to post

earlier this evening - but the post didnt go thru)

4. Is a potent anti-bacterial (analogy = air support) - this term is a

potentially loosely defined one - because it could be argued that my #'s - 1,2

and 3 above are all anti-bacterial actions as well. But not in the strict sense

as he writes about in his Herbal Anti-Biotic book about Grape-Fruit Seed

Extract.

5. Immune-system modulator (analog = ground-troop morale booster)

6. Addresses many Bartonella symptoms, including heart-inflammation.

It's probably worth pointing out - that Bartonella starts in the blood (where it

is essentially nomadic, and also an intracellular pathogen within red blood

cells, and as far as I know not-reproducing much there, except maybe in acute-

Cat Scratch Disease)but it then moves into the endothelial cells to set up camp

and start making a family, and then develops neighboring apartment complexes

-which I beleive is where the chronic-long term issues really begin.

It also drops bacteria back into the blood from the endothelial colonies

(analogy -the kids leaving home).

I've completely wiped myself out writing this - apologies, if this information

is redundant with prior information within the forum - i'm new here, but I hope

it at least helps maybe 1 person.

December 3, 2010

With Bartonella - the answer is yes to both - the liver and lymph system, and

the spleen also can become a problem and can be exceedlingly serious (all

filters and/or waste disposal systems). People who have had their spleens out

and then aquire Bartonella have especially had seriious problems (and i've had

some minor issues, enlargement, etc. and have it on my list to be researching

spleen support - but am not done yet).

Biotoxin Illness - as described by Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker (and only him) seems to

be an elaborate description for similar symptoms which occur and overlap with

various conditions.

http://www.biotoxin.info/biotoxinsources

I haven't read it all - but is he developing a strategy to just treat a bunch of

common symptoms with people ? - I look for clinical studies to support things.

This is a new concept to me - Buhner doesn't really use the word

bio-toxin in his (well referenced) book per-se. I have had a real hard time

finding anything proving the existence of pathogen originating toxins -

upregulation of inflamatory bio-chemicals yes, but most of these are already

naturally occuring chemicals within the body from what I have found. Again - I

am refering to clinical published information.

The ILAD's umbrella can be a rather large & nebulous one from what i've seen. I

think some of these people are simply creating " niches " for themselves. ---

Which leads me to a question, does anyone know of a list which you can access

that shows all of the members of ILADs ?

thanks

-

> >

>

> > Does anyone know if the knotweed, stephania, and red root actually kill the

bartonella? It seems that in the book they are just for lymphatic drainage.

>

> kill: unlikely IMHO. I think knotweed and stephania make the environment less

friendly for bartonella, and red rood is for drainage (I guess it stimulates the

lymph nodes, which causes toxins and debris to be flushed and hopefully takes

some bugs with it, or at least helps the immune system to deal with existing

infections).

>

December 3, 2010

Laurie,

I'm sorry, I don't know of any groups, but I did a quick google search for the

words " Lyme - support groups- NJ " and found this which lists some:

http://lymebook.com/blog/geographic-incidence/incidence-new-jersey-nj-county-sup\

port-group/

I'm assuming by no other responses on the forum that there aren't any Buhner

groups ?

This is not encouuraging to me that you have been doing Buhner herbs for this

long still - have you had any improvements ? - I have seen some changees in the

4 or 5 weeks now already (core protocol with precision)even though I re-tested

positive again with this new Igenix FISH-test.

-

> > >

> > > Hi - my name is , and I live in Southern NJ.

> > >

> > > I am a huge fan of Buhner and have owned many

> > > of his books (in addition to the Healing Lyme book) for

> > > a few years now.

> > >

> > > I just started the specific protocol for Bartonella outlined in the book,

after having gone thru a full year of convention medical treatment, which

consisted of 12 months of antibiotics (8 mo's of which

> > > was via IV).

> > >

> > > This treatment was stopped only when tests turned negative - and then a

period of no treatment ensued for roughly 6 months (although symptoms had hardly

improved).

> > >

> > > However - just about 3 weeks ago I tested positive again via an Igenix

Bartonella-FISH test (which is only a newly available test, but is stated to be

a direct detection of the rod shaped organisms via a blood smear, but is non

specific in term of which of 4 types of Bartonella species I could have).

> > >

> > > Needless to say - after 10 montsh of antibiotic treatment - the new

positive test was rather devastating news to receive, but at the same time now

does give me something to re-focus treatment on to deal with all of these

symptoms.

> > >

> > > Additionally - I have blood currently being cultured at the Intracellular

Pathogens Research Lab - NC State University; College

> > > of Veterinary Medicine, which should yield results in early December.

> > >

> > > Since beginning the Buhner protocol roughly 3 weeks ago I am really happy

to report that certain nagging symptoms have improved - specifically chronic IBS

wich has plagued me for the past 5 years.

> > > I am working my way up dosage and am roughly at 1/2 dose - with the

whole-herb Knotweed, Red Root, and Boneset. - I have never used these herbs

before this.

> > >

> > > It is not entirely clear that I obtained the infection from

> > > a tick - but I suspect so.

> > >

> > > However - if the above is not enough on it's own - about 10 days ago I

found a fully engorged male Lonestar Tick embedded near my ankle. This tick is

currently being analyzed - and we are awaiting results (upon finding this I

immediately proceeded with the " early bite " protocol from the Buhner text) and

as a preventative am now also taking 150mg of Doryx 2x/day.

> > >

> > > My interest in joining the forum here has to do with that I would be

especially appreciate input if anyone has dealt with chronic or relapsing

Bartonella with any success ??? - and also if there are additional herbs that

have been helpful beyond the core protocol in the book.

> > >

> > > I suspect I will probably be maintaining the protocol, and also resuming

with a new anti-biotic (which my LLMD is researching for me) for the Bartonella,

the current Doryx is simply for preventative reasons for this recent Lonestar

tick bite, considering that I am already immuno-suppressed, and can't afford to

be taking any risks.

> > > I am freankly terrified at the prospects of Bartonella infecting my heart

vavles if I were to become even more ill with any new TBI's.

> > >

> > > Thanks much for reading all of this - and I hope I can add some positive

things, become an asset to what appears to be a really wonderful forum here.

> > >

> > > Regards

> > >

> >

>

December 4, 2010

>

> Biotoxin Illness - as described by Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker (and only him) seems

to be an elaborate description for similar symptoms which occur and overlap with

various conditions.

> http://www.biotoxin.info/biotoxinsources

>

> I haven't read it all - but is he developing a strategy to just treat a bunch

of common symptoms with people ? - I look for clinical studies to support

things.

AFAIK there is NO clinical (or other scientific) support for his treatment. But

it does make some sense to me, as a part of the bigger puzzle.

> This is a new concept to me - Buhner doesn't really use the word

bio-toxin in his (well referenced) book per-se. I have had a real hard time

finding anything proving the existence of pathogen originating toxins -

upregulation of inflamatory bio-chemicals yes, but most of these are already

naturally occuring chemicals within the body from what I have found. Again - I

am refering to clinical published information.

Most of the Borrelia toxins are not naturally occuring in our body because they

have components that are very different from us and most other bacteria. e.g.

many of the Bb lipis, lipoproteins and lipopolysaccharides are 'foreign' to us.

To my surprise I heard Dr. Donta comment during the IOM hearings that nobody has

researched his Bbtox1 gene, the Borrelia gene that codes for a protein that is

very similar to botulinus toxin (one of the most potent toxins known). This is

REALLY weird, as his discovery is over 15 years old and seems important; highly

unlikely that no one has followed up on this. IMHO the research must be there,

but maybe we aren't allowed to know (because of Homeland Security etc.).

> The ILAD's umbrella can be a rather large & nebulous one from what i've seen.

I think some of these people are simply creating " niches " for themselves.

definitely; there is a lot of unproven and bogus treatment going on there, just

like in many other places in the medical community.

December 4, 2010

>

> The notion that some people have of a " silver-bullet " which simply " wipes-out "

the organism is just not really the way it works.

> Hardly ever with any pathogen.

>

exactly; good post

December 6, 2010

LOL @ the analogies. What a great read

>

> ,

>

> In response to your question -

>

> " ...if the knotweed, stephania, and red root actually kill the bartonella? It

seems that in the book they are just for lymphatic drainage. This has never

been clear to me.... "

>

> The short answer, according to his book (on page 197) is " no they are not all

just for lymphatic drainage " - only the Red-Root is indicated specifically for

lymph support (and also for use if there is liver or spleen inflamation). - If

the other indicated herbs also help with lypmh support I am not aware of that.

>

> What I have a difficult time finding in the book is details of the actions

involved with the secondary recommendation for the use of Stephania Root for

Bartonella. - It is included within it's " Actions " (top of page 148) as an

" anti-parasitic,antibacterial, and an angiogenisis modulator " . The third of

which is a big issue with managing Bartonella pathology. But something which

also concerns me there a little-bit is that Stephania is noted to be " used with

caution with Lyme-carditis " . - I can only assume that this sort of heart

inflammation is a different phenomenon than the endocarditis which can be so

deadly in the destruction of heart-vales with Bartonella.

>

> I can try to answer more of this for you - but am basically refering back to

's book to do so, his writings are generalized enough for me to readily

understand, and also one of the very " few " commercially printed texts which I

inherently trust without cross-referencing back to other source materal to make

sure it's not B.S. - but it's a great excercise for me to review it and try to

explain it.

>

> The notion that some people have of a " silver-bullet " which simply " wipes-out "

the organism is just not really the way it works.

> Hardly ever with any pathogen.

>

> basically says elsewhere in his writings, etc. (and I agree)that the

modern-medicine paradigm of " over-simplification " (and " reductionism " - a word

he uses a ton) the whole issue of Lyme is really just wrong, if not arrogant.

Particualarly because these organisms have so many survival mechanisms and got a

few million years head start before humans to develop these adaptations. They

are in fact a lot more complex than some other infectious-diseases, a small

minority of which could simply be wiped out with a dose of penicillin.

>

> In fact - this is part of the same problem with the model of " this anti-biotic