Guest guest Posted October 22, 2010 Report Share Posted October 22, 2010 Unfortunately those are lab results and commonly presented to people as if it were factual in the real world. Infection can happen almost immediately if the tick is squeezes as it is removed and it empties it stomach into the host. I would never be too sure how people have removed it or handled it especially in a childs case where he might have tried to rub it off. Â Â Jeff From: knot_weed <tek0nik@...> Subject: [ ] Bb transmission etc. Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 4:21 PM Â > As I said, Borrelia CAN be transmitted within 15 minutes of engorgement (if it is not engorged infection is impossible!). There always is a risk when the tick has become engorged, but risk only becomes significant after several hours of attachment. There is some debate about the transmission time for Borrelia, most research suggests that the risk of transmission is very small until 24-48 hours after engorgement (depending on tick stage/species, Borrelia species, other factors maybe). Technically, the mouth parts (salivary glands) of the tick need to be infected with Borrelia for infection to occur quickly. This is normally not the case, or only in very small numbers because the Borrelia reside in the tick gut where they first have to change before they can effectively infect the human host. Borrelia that are present in the salivary glands are not geared for infecting humans and are very unlikely to cause infection. All this is just for judging the likelyhood of what has happened, there are no guarantees. Unlike Borrelia, some coinfections can be transmitted very quickly so with a 'short byte' they are probably the high risk factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2010 Report Share Posted October 22, 2010 **As I said, Borrelia CAN be transmitted within 15 minutes of engorgement (if it is not engorged infection is impossible!). ** Well, since the tick on my daughter was NOT engorged and attached for less than 4 hours, I would say that in our case that statement is false. In our firsthand experience, it is most definitely possible to have Borrelia transmitted (as well as many of the other co-infections) in a short amount of time without the tick ever becoming visibly engorged! Wish it weren't so...........would love to not be here.........no offense anyone! Mira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2010 Report Share Posted October 22, 2010 where do you get the info that a tick can only transmit lyme if engorged? i quickly googled a bit and only found a lyme website that said that but it also upheld the notion that chronic lyme doesn't exist and there is no support that long term antibiotics help anyone. so that is not credible to me. can you please point me to this info. On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Jeff Hickson <jeffreydhickson@...>wrote: > > > Unfortunately those are lab results and commonly presented to people as if > it were factual in the real world. Infection can happen almost immediately > if the tick is squeezes as it is removed and it empties it stomach into the > host. I would never be too sure how people have removed it or handled it > especially in a childs case where he might have tried to rub it off. > > Jeff > > > > From: knot_weed <tek0nik@... <tek0nik%40>> > Subject: [ ] Bb transmission etc. > < %40> > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 4:21 PM > > > > > > > > As I said, Borrelia CAN be transmitted within 15 minutes of engorgement (if > it is not engorged infection is impossible!). > > There always is a risk when the tick has become engorged, but risk only > becomes significant after several hours of attachment. There is some debate > about the transmission time for Borrelia, most research suggests that the > risk of transmission is very small until 24-48 hours after engorgement > (depending on tick stage/species, Borrelia species, other factors maybe). > > Technically, the mouth parts (salivary glands) of the tick need to be > infected with Borrelia for infection to occur quickly. This is normally not > the case, or only in very small numbers because the Borrelia reside in the > tick gut where they first have to change before they can effectively infect > the human host. Borrelia that are present in the salivary glands are not > geared for infecting humans and are very unlikely to cause infection. > > All this is just for judging the likelyhood of what has happened, there are > no guarantees. Unlike Borrelia, some coinfections can be transmitted very > quickly so with a 'short byte' they are probably the high risk factor. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2010 Report Share Posted October 22, 2010 it seems to not matter now anyway if the tick was engorged or not or if the possibility of lyme transmission is feasible. lyme is clinically diagnosed anyways in most cases and all the symptoms of this child point to lyme and possibly coinfections. i have read that rarely does one get a coinfection and not lyme, although possible. On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Jeff Hickson <jeffreydhickson@...>wrote: > > > Unfortunately those are lab results and commonly presented to people as if > it were factual in the real world. Infection can happen almost immediately > if the tick is squeezes as it is removed and it empties it stomach into the > host. I would never be too sure how people have removed it or handled it > especially in a childs case where he might have tried to rub it off. > > Jeff > > > > From: knot_weed <tek0nik@... <tek0nik%40>> > Subject: [ ] Bb transmission etc. > < %40> > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 4:21 PM > > > > > > > > As I said, Borrelia CAN be transmitted within 15 minutes of engorgement (if > it is not engorged infection is impossible!). > > There always is a risk when the tick has become engorged, but risk only > becomes significant after several hours of attachment. There is some debate > about the transmission time for Borrelia, most research suggests that the > risk of transmission is very small until 24-48 hours after engorgement > (depending on tick stage/species, Borrelia species, other factors maybe). > > Technically, the mouth parts (salivary glands) of the tick need to be > infected with Borrelia for infection to occur quickly. This is normally not > the case, or only in very small numbers because the Borrelia reside in the > tick gut where they first have to change before they can effectively infect > the human host. Borrelia that are present in the salivary glands are not > geared for infecting humans and are very unlikely to cause infection. > > All this is just for judging the likelyhood of what has happened, there are > no guarantees. Unlike Borrelia, some coinfections can be transmitted very > quickly so with a 'short byte' they are probably the high risk factor. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 Yes, transmission DOES occur quickly on occasion. My tick was attached about 6 hours, a nymph, definitely not engorged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 > > **As I said, Borrelia CAN be transmitted within 15 minutes of engorgement (if it is not engorged infection is impossible!). ** > > Well, since the tick on my daughter was NOT engorged and attached for less than 4 hours, I would say that in our case that statement is false. In our firsthand experience, it is most definitely possible to have Borrelia transmitted (as well as many of the other co-infections) in a short amount of time without the tick ever becoming visibly engorged! Wish it weren't so...........would love to not be here.........no offense anyone! sorry, I think this may be a language problem. What I meant is that for infection to occur, the tick needs to make blood contact with the host, by penetrating the skin with its mouth parts and hitting a small blood vessel. Borrelia is unable to penetrate intact skin. I use 'engorged' when there is blood contact, but maybe this is the wrong word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 > > Unfortunately those are lab results and commonly presented to people as if it were factual in the real world. Infection can happen almost immediately if the tick is squeezes as it is removed and it empties it stomach into the host. I would never be too sure how people have removed it or handled it especially in a childs case where he might have tried to rub it off. true, rubbing or wrong removal procedure strongly increases the risk. But if people say the tick was not engorged (attached with the mouth parts) and they are sure about this, there is no risk of infection. I know a few people who did a long ABX course for nothing, because they found a walking tick on their skin, panicked and convinced the docter that they needed ABX (who probably thought that an ABX prescription was the easiest way to get rid of the problem). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 > > where do you get the info that a tick can only transmit lyme if engorged? i > quickly googled a bit and only found a lyme website that said that but it > also upheld the notion that chronic lyme doesn't exist and there is no > support that long term antibiotics help anyone. so that is not credible to > me. can you please point me to this info. again, this may be a language problem (I'm not from an english speaking country). With engorged I mean the technical fact that the tick has its mouth part buried in the skin and has made contact with a small blood vessel. It is irrelevant if the tick is visibly 'swollen'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 > i have read that rarely does one get a coinfection > and not lyme, although possible. NOT true. The problem is that most people are not tested for coinfections anyway, even more so if there is no EM after the tick byte. And most coinfection blood tests are even more unreliable (insensitive) than those for Bb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 Okay, the confusion does seem to be with language. Usually the word " engorged " is in reference to the tick having feasted for awhile, is embedded, and is swollen. I think the word you are actually meaning is " attached " --meaning the tick's mouth is embedded and/or buried in the skin--in which case, yes, I agree, the tick has to be attached and/or embedded yet not engorged to transmit its infections. Sorry for not understanding your original statements. Mira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 where I grew up " engorged " meant the body is swollen. I read that the tick needs to be attached 36 hours before it can pass the bacteria? Who knows, but I do know that our son has never reacted to a tick bite like this before and has NEVER had a reaction at the bite site before. I did get the entire tick out too and quickly. : ) > again, this may be a language problem (I'm not from an english speaking country). With engorged I mean the technical fact that the tick has its mouth part buried in the skin and has made contact with a small blood vessel. It is irrelevant if the tick is visibly 'swollen'. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 > > Okay, the confusion does seem to be with language. Usually the word " engorged " is in reference to the tick having feasted for awhile, is embedded, and is swollen. I think the word you are actually meaning is " attached " --meaning the tick's mouth is embedded and/or buried in the skin--in which case, yes, I agree, the tick has to be attached and/or embedded yet not engorged to transmit its infections. > > Sorry for not understanding your original statements. my fault, will try to improve my english ;( Our Dutch translations for attached and engorged have a bit different meaning than in English ... e.g. for us attached means the tick is still fully on the 'outside', so not (partly) 'embedded' or 'buried'. I'm still puzzled why scientists sometimes use 'engorged' when talking about Bb transmission risk, while in hindsight they probably mean embedded or something similar. IMHO you cannot always see on the outside how much/long the tick has been feasting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 if one were to see a lyme literate doctor they would definitely be told to test for coinfections. again, can you please point me to where you get the info you are referring to in your posts? ILIADS, books, a lyme literate doctor? On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 3:15 AM, knot_weed <tek0nik@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > i have read that rarely does one get a coinfection > > and not lyme, although possible. > > NOT true. The problem is that most people are not tested for coinfections > anyway, even more so if there is no EM after the tick byte. And most > coinfection blood tests are even more unreliable (insensitive) than those > for Bb. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 forget my previous post as i just read thru the others and it seems that you are in a different country? all know is that here in the u.s. pretty much all the lyme literate dr.'s tell their patients to get tested for coinfections and lyme in addition to detailing the patients symptoms history to make a clinical diagnosis of both. On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 7:48 AM, le Handy <kndplus2@...> wrote: > if one were to see a lyme literate doctor they would definitely be told to > test for coinfections. again, can you please point me to where you get the > info you are referring to in your posts? ILIADS, books, a lyme literate > doctor? > > > On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 3:15 AM, knot_weed <tek0nik@...> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> i have read that rarely does one get a coinfection >> > and not lyme, although possible. >> >> NOT true. The problem is that most people are not tested for coinfections >> anyway, even more so if there is no EM after the tick byte. And most >> coinfection blood tests are even more unreliable (insensitive) than those >> for Bb. >> >> >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 Buhner, in a workshop I listened to mentioned a case of lyme being transmitted by a black fly or mosquito bite (can't remember which as its been a couple of years since I listened to that CD). Just to reinforce the idea that it doesn't take a lot of time to transmit the infection. As others have said, even Buhner believes in the use of ABX for lyme. Best wishes, jo > > **As I said, Borrelia CAN be transmitted within 15 minutes of engorgement (if it is not engorged infection is impossible!). ** > > Well, since the tick on my daughter was NOT engorged and attached for less than 4 hours, I would say that in our case that statement is false. In our firsthand experience, it is most definitely possible to have Borrelia transmitted (as well as many of the other co-infections) in a short amount of time without the tick ever becoming visibly engorged! Wish it weren't so...........would love to not be here.........no offense anyone! > > Mira > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 i have read that in a scientific experiment they put one Bb infected mouse with an non infected mouse and after a certain amount of time the other one showed infection. they both were female! On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 9:19 AM, judyjo27 <judyjo44@...> wrote: > > > > Buhner, in a workshop I listened to mentioned a case of lyme being > transmitted by a black fly or mosquito bite (can't remember which as its > been a couple of years since I listened to that CD). Just to reinforce the > idea that it doesn't take a lot of time to transmit the infection. > > As others have said, even Buhner believes in the use of ABX for lyme. > > Best wishes, jo > > > > > **As I said, Borrelia CAN be transmitted within 15 minutes of engorgement > (if it is not engorged infection is impossible!). ** > > > > Well, since the tick on my daughter was NOT engorged and attached for > less than 4 hours, I would say that in our case that statement is false. In > our firsthand experience, it is most definitely possible to have Borrelia > transmitted (as well as many of the other co-infections) in a short amount > of time without the tick ever becoming visibly engorged! Wish it weren't > so...........would love to not be here.........no offense anyone! > > > > Mira > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 > > if one were to see a lyme literate doctor they would definitely be told to > test for coinfections. again, can you please point me to where you get the > info you are referring to in your posts? ILIADS, books, a lyme literate > doctor? from the scientific literature, e.g. PubMed (I'm a biochemist). In Europe testing for tick coinfections is almost non-existent, according to polls from patients groups maybe 10-20% of LD patients has ever been tested for coinfections. Maybe the US is different but I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 > > all the lyme literate dr.'s tell their patients to get tested for > coinfections and lyme in addition to detailing the patients symptoms history > to make a clinical diagnosis of both. yes, but that's only those LLMD's unfortunately, and I was talking about all Lyme patients. Most of them will never see a LLMD. How many average MD's know about tick coinfections and test for them? In most of Europe there are no LLMD's (ILADS docs) and just a small number of MD's who will check for coinfections after a tick byte. The average MD doesn't know anything about the subject, you are lucky if they have a vague idea about Borrelia to start with In my country the guidelines are probably going to change, and recommend additional coinfection testing for everyone with confirmed Borrelia infection. But that's for the future ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 > > > Buhner, in a workshop I listened to mentioned a case of lyme being transmitted by a black fly or mosquito bite (can't remember which as its been a couple of years since I listened to that CD). Just to reinforce the idea that it doesn't take a lot of time to transmit the infection. There is no 'transmission time' with mosquito bites, the mechanism of transmission is different as they only suck blood and do not spit something in the wound. Technically you cannot be infected from a mosquito sting. There are very few (1-2) cases of proven Borrelia infection through mosquito sting, and it is thought that in those cases the infection occurred because the bug was fiercely 'squashed' in the bite wound. Probably this is a very unlikely way of getting infected with Borrelia. Stinging flies are a risk, although relatively small compared to ticks (e.g. in German Black Forest, and some neighbour countries). At least you will know when they bite you, unlike with the average tick ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 > > i have read that in a scientific experiment they put one Bb infected mouse > with an non infected mouse and after a certain amount of time the other one > showed infection. they both were female! mice can transmit Borrelia through their urine, so this does not require blood contact. Probably the urine has to make contact with the eye or other mucous areas, because Borrelia cannot survice on the skin or penetrate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 let me ask you this question please. at the height of my lyme symptoms (before i knew i had it) and i would say i was about 2 yrs. into the infection, my husband had a stuffy nose and used my nose spray. from there his stuffy nose became chronic and then started to hurt, then started to bleed and feel like there is alot of tissue or scabbing. the only thing the dr. offered was to do surgery because by then he had a hole in his septum and they repeatedly asked him if he did cocaine (which is a no) they did the surgery and took a sample of the tissue and tested it for everything according to the dr. the surgery did not help anything and they did not find any infections or molds and he still now 2-3 yrs. later every morning cleans his nose and lots of blood comes out and it is still blocked and he cannot breath thru his nose. around the same time but gradually he also started getting dizzy, vision problems, chronic headaches, on and off stomach problems, and lost hearing in one ear, is disturbed and startled by loud noises, has difficulty sleeping every night and says his ears always ring. i wrote all of this to say that i believe that he got lyme from me thru my nasal spray because up until that point he was normal and healthy. what are your thoughts on that? On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 10:53 AM, knot_weed <tek0nik@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > i have read that in a scientific experiment they put one Bb infected > mouse > > with an non infected mouse and after a certain amount of time the other > one > > showed infection. they both were female! > > mice can transmit Borrelia through their urine, so this does not require > blood contact. Probably the urine has to make contact with the eye or other > mucous areas, because Borrelia cannot survice on the skin or penetrate it. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 I recall they think it was transmitted through urine exposure. Re: [ ] Re: Bb transmission etc. i have read that in a scientific experiment they put one Bb infected mouse with an non infected mouse and after a certain amount of time the other one showed infection. they both were female! On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 9:19 AM, judyjo27 <judyjo44@...> wrote: > > > > Buhner, in a workshop I listened to mentioned a case of lyme being > transmitted by a black fly or mosquito bite (can't remember which as its > been a couple of years since I listened to that CD). Just to reinforce the > idea that it doesn't take a lot of time to transmit the infection. > > As others have said, even Buhner believes in the use of ABX for lyme. > > Best wishes, jo > > > > > **As I said, Borrelia CAN be transmitted within 15 minutes of engorgement > (if it is not engorged infection is impossible!). ** > > > > Well, since the tick on my daughter was NOT engorged and attached for > less than 4 hours, I would say that in our case that statement is false. In > our firsthand experience, it is most definitely possible to have Borrelia > transmitted (as well as many of the other co-infections) in a short amount > of time without the tick ever becoming visibly engorged! Wish it weren't > so...........would love to not be here.........no offense anyone! > > > > Mira > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 Very interesting. Sounds possible. Did you know that the discoverer of Lyme, Willie Burgdorfer, got it when he was splashed in the eye by an infected specimen? Just thinking outloud here about other possibilities for your husband, like he got his own separate exposure to the illness somehow. Or he got it from you other ways, since the borrelia is in all tissues and fluids. So I think it's going to be hard to pinpoint exactly what the transmission route was. Is he treating now? Re: [ ] Re: Bb transmission etc. let me ask you this question please. at the height of my lyme symptoms (before i knew i had it) and i would say i was about 2 yrs. into the infection, my husband had a stuffy nose and used my nose spray. from there his stuffy nose became chronic and then started to hurt, then started to bleed and feel like there is alot of tissue or scabbing. the only thing the dr. offered was to do surgery because by then he had a hole in his septum and they repeatedly asked him if he did cocaine (which is a no) they did the surgery and took a sample of the tissue and tested it for everything according to the dr. the surgery did not help anything and they did not find any infections or molds and he still now 2-3 yrs. later every morning cleans his nose and lots of blood comes out and it is still blocked and he cannot breath thru his nose. around the same time but gradually he also started getting dizzy, vision problems, chronic headaches, on and off stomach problems, and lost hearing in one ear, is disturbed and startled by loud noises, has difficulty sleeping every night and says his ears always ring. i wrote all of this to say that i believe that he got lyme from me thru my nasal spray because up until that point he was normal and healthy. what are your thoughts on that? On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 10:53 AM, knot_weed <tek0nik@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > i have read that in a scientific experiment they put one Bb infected > mouse > > with an non infected mouse and after a certain amount of time the other > one > > showed infection. they both were female! > > mice can transmit Borrelia through their urine, so this does not require > blood contact. Probably the urine has to make contact with the eye or other > mucous areas, because Borrelia cannot survice on the skin or penetrate it. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 That makes more sense now! Thanks for the clarification. In English we would say " attached " instead of engorged. Engorged means " full beyond limit " . www.lyme-resource.com You can lead a person to a fact, but you can't make them think! - [ ] Re: Bb transmission etc. > > where do you get the info that a tick can only transmit lyme if > engorged? i quickly googled a bit and only found a lyme website that > said that but it also upheld the notion that chronic lyme doesn't > exist and there is no support that long term antibiotics help anyone. > so that is not credible to me. can you please point me to this info. again, this may be a language problem (I'm not from an english speaking country). With engorged I mean the technical fact that the tick has its mouth part buried in the skin and has made contact with a small blood vessel. It is irrelevant if the tick is visibly 'swollen'. ------------------------------------ Buy Healing Lyme: Natural Healing And Prevention of Lyme Borreliosis And Its Coinfections by Buhner at one of these locations: http://tinyurl.com/3bgm5d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 Their are studies now in progress to see if Lyme is transmittted sexually, much like its cousin Syphillis. This information came from my LLD. Jeff > > > > > > > > > i have read that in a scientific experiment they put one Bb infected > mouse > > with an non infected mouse and after a certain amount of time the other > one > > showed infection. they both were female! > > mice can transmit Borrelia through their urine, so this does not require > blood contact. Probably the urine has to make contact with the eye or other > mucous areas, because Borrelia cannot survice on the skin or penetrate it. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.