Smilax/Sarsaparilla

January 17, 2009

Also wanted to ask if anyone knows if the sarsaparilla recommended at Planet

Thrive - Nature's Way (label doesn't say that is standardized) is whole herb and

if it could be substituted with the ones sold at 1st Chinese Herb?

Would these be equivalent?

[ ] Smilax/Sarsaparilla

In Buhner's book, he says that smilax is anti spirochetal yet also

binds endotoxins and lessens herxheimer reactions. This almost seems

like a contradiction to me.

In trying to reconcile it, do you think maybe your herxing tipping

point would just be higher? Any comments appreciated.

Thanks

January 17, 2009

In my experience with several abx's, it not HERXing when it NEVER

ENDS, herxing being an overload of toxins due to die off or die off

in itself.. I spent six month on Flagyl in a so called Herx state,

not being aware of hardly anything around me .. I think rather its a

reaction to the infection. It did not help neuro, but bladder dx'd

as Interstialsistis ICS, and bowel called IBS, it cleared .. then

started coming back again lately, control it with Cranberry capsules

which create aciditic bladder which bacteria tend not to like. I

also use female suppositories used the way they are suppose to be

used and it crosses over to the bladder, so, if its a bacteria in my

bladder, how is it that an antifungal such as Miconazole helps it

when I take it fairly regulary...Difucon and Nizarole didnt do

anything for me .. my toenails fell off and my hair is falling out

with some kind of infection no one wants to pay any attention to.. I

think candida mutates and becomes reistant very easily .. or

something in that general area.

Herx has never made sense to me .. because the way its described

never fit what I experienced. IT never ended !!

OH, I was going to say, Smilax/Sarsaparilla is great stuff, gave me

natural energy .. made a lot of the tincture myself .. a lot better

than they sell for so much.. But, it being slightly stimulating in

nature .. I cant take it after my heart attack caused by lyme which

causes hypercoagulation (thick blood) make sure your doc tests for

this .. its not only common with lyme but any longer standing

infection and also as being exposed to so many varied things as we

age our immune system creats thick blood as well .. a lot of

misdiagnosed ALS cases out there, its so sad, they dont have to be in

that world .. if only the docs knew what they where doing..

I thought of any easy way to describe modern medicine as it

pertains to the typical doc, or to help someone get a clue of whats

going on in the typical medical arena. What are the basic needs for

or health? ... emmm... Nutrients, right .. most basic fundamental

things our body needs .. Yet, when was the last time you heard a

doctor mention them ??? .. Hmmm .. think pharm has a bit to much

influence in the way doctors practice today perhaps?? .. Todays

medicine has its place, but only when combined with Natural .. which

is called Integrative.

Ive been sick to long .. without healthcare, so Im a bit moody at

present..

January 18, 2009

Well, to give you some perspective, I've had lyme for 6 1/2 years. I

had it misdiagnosed and mistreated for 4, so you can only imagine how

very sick I was! Herxing is the reaction your body has to the die-off

of viruses/organisms and their toxins (a lot is ammonia, hence the

brain fog) that is released when they die in large amounts at once.

Specifically with Lyme it will mimic some of your Lyme symptoms,

increase brain-fog and ammonia-caused memory lapses, increased

inflammation, it can also cause insomnia and basically feeling like

you have the flu, hot flashes, mild fever, random pains, joint pain,

etc. They can be worse than your Lyme symptoms if you are just

beginning to treat your Lyme with Lyme-killers because the die-off

will be heavy, so GO SLOW AND EASY and start very gradually to gauge

your herx reaction. When you take Lyme-killers, you will almost

immediately feel the herx coming on with fatigue. Detoxing, hot baths,

sauna, at home enemas, tons of daily filtered water, fiber/stool

softener supplements to get the junk out asap, can all help lessen the

herx reaction.

Candida or yeast infections can also exacerbate herx reactions if you

take yeast killers and candida killers at the same time. Usually

candida die-off is nausea, headaches, blurry vision, floaty/spacey

head from ammonia released by the yeast, and stomach cramps. Just like

with Lyme die-off detoxing is the best thing to help. Also using

Activated Charcoal capsules with stop the nausea. I would take 6

capsules at once when it was bad or the herxing was too heavy, it

absorbs a bunch of the bad stuff floating around and will make you

feel better.

Nanotek Chitosan is another herx-minimizer but cannot be taken for

long-term use, just short term.

The guidelines for herxing are this: You MUST herx to kill the lyme,

and you always want to seek Lyme treatments that cause you to herx,

not just suppress the Lyme.. for late-stage antibiotics do not always

go deep enough and can then just suppress the infection so you feel

better, but are not cured. Generally herxing will be pronounced for

2-7 days, then will noticeably ease off and you will feel the Lyme

symptoms be more pronounced again instead of the herx reaction

feelings being more pronounced.

You don't want your body herxing too severely. If you are herxing

severely on antibiotics and feel no " lighter " days when the die-off

subsides, then are likely hitting it way too hard too fast and need to

lighten up the lyme killing. When you herx too severely for too long

without giving your body any break days, it is tough on your immune

system, liver, etc and may encourage the development of allergies due

to your supressed immune system being extremely stressed with no

breaks to detox your system.

I personally was on the Buhner herbal protocol at max dose for 6

months straight.. took me a number of months to work up to that too,

so total probably 1 year. But since my Lyme was late-stage, Buhner

herbs were not going to cure me, simply lighten my spirochete load a

bunch... but I still had limiting Lyme symptoms all the time. I then

switched to the sea salt & vitamin c protocol (take 1 gram or 2 " OO "

size capsules of each, 5 times a day, but start with 1 capsule of each

and work up the dose slowly) and also 500mg of magnesium malate 6

times a day. These made me fell hugely better even than the herbs had.

To actually get really huge steps in beating lyme and getting better

though, I bought a GB4000 Rife machine for $2400 and rifed with codes

from Rosner's site www.lymecommunity.com.. I use all the lyme

and co-infection codes in the manual that comes with the machine and

they have been hands-down the biggest, lasting thing that has brought

my health back with beating my Lyme as well as constant good

supplements, no sugar/no carb diet (very very important), high vitamin

Bs and B12, high Omega 3,6,9, sticking with the anti-inflammatory

diet, sea salt/c and magnesium etc.

I've never been on pharmaceutical antibiotics for my Lyme. They only

make me sicker and my immune system weaker because I'd had my Lyme for

too long.

I can't recommend more highly purchasing a Doug or GB4000 rife machine

and following the advice of Rosner's online site

www.lymecommunity.com and the wonderful group lyme-and-rife.

Hope you feel better, it takes time, but you will feel better.

For the Smilax question.. Buhner is basically saying that Smilax kills

spirochetes and also helps your body safely detox the ammonia and

other toxic residues that concentrate in your blood when you kill off

large amounts of pathogens (harmful bacteria/organisms), When you kill

pathogens, they release endotoxins when they die in your body.. so

detoxing in every and any possible safe way to help your body get them

out will make you feel MUCH better. Also be sure to support your liver

with additional Milk Thistle, Dandelion root, or Liver complex

supplement, tons of water, tons of fiber and fiber supplements to get

out the die-off remains.

If you have late-stage Lyme disease, you will likely herx quite a lot

for a few months before it will be lighter. With my rife machine, I

herx for about 4-5 days straight with tons of inflammation, hot

flashes, fatigue, flu-sypmtoms and won't get out of bed. But when the

herx goes away I feel WAY better because less Lyme load.

January 18, 2009

I only used the 1stchineseherbs.com source for Smilax.. never any

other. I didn't see the point since it was the correct concentration

and was the least $$ for 1 LB of bulk ground whole herb. I bought my

empty OO capsules through Vitacost.com because they were the best

quality for the least money.

January 18, 2009

I don't understand why you would think this is a contradiction. Spirochetes

are not toxins, they release toxins. I can easily picture a substance making

the surroundings unpleasant for a bacteria (kind of like dear repellent keeps

the deer out off a garden), but also have chemical properties that bind toxins

released by the dying germs (picture it like something that neutralizes bad

odor and makes it go away). Unless you thought it was a contradiction because

it is both supposed to chase them away and absorb toxins from their death.

Keep in mind they do not die from the substance, just do not have a happy

breeding ground. Like animals in the wild, they may not replicate as much in a

hostile environment. So the spirochetes will not magically run away from taking

smilax, just stop reproducing fast and then die when their lifespan is up,

maybe faster then in a great breeding ground. At least that is how I picture it

scientifically and it does not seem like a contradiction to me. Correct me if

you think I am wrong.

Dagmar

January 18, 2009

We took Smilax. It was one of the best things I took as far as resulting in

shrinking a Bartonella rash. It did also appear to help reduce symptoms in

general. I would definitely recommend it. Many herbs both kill and mop up;

its the beautiful thing about them. That is why I use them and not

antibiotics.

Heidi N

In Buhner's book, he says that smilax is anti spirochetal yet also

binds endotoxins and lessens herxheimer reactions. This almost seems

like a contradiction to me.

In trying to reconcile it, do you think maybe your herxing tipping

point would just be higher? Any comments appreciated.

Thanks

**************Inauguration '09: Get complete coverage from the nation's

capital.(http://www.aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000027)

January 18, 2009

Yes, it is whole herb. I used the Nature's Way during my time with the

protocol and I still take it sometimes now.

>

> Also wanted to ask if anyone knows if the sarsaparilla recommended

at Planet Thrive - Nature's Way (label doesn't say that is

standardized) is whole herb and if it could be substituted with the

ones sold at 1st Chinese Herb?

>

> Would these be equivalent?

>

> [ ] Smilax/Sarsaparilla

>

> In Buhner's book, he says that smilax is anti spirochetal yet also

> binds endotoxins and lessens herxheimer reactions. This almost seems

> like a contradiction to me.

>

> In trying to reconcile it, do you think maybe your herxing tipping

> point would just be higher? Any comments appreciated.

>

> Thanks

>

January 18, 2009

Sarsaparilla allegedly binds " endotoxins " , which might theoretically

reduce herxing. I take everything with a grain of salt however.

Clearly though Smilax was used EXTENSIVELY in the treatment of

syphilis. My personal experience with it is that it has caused

intense and rapid herxing in the past. I count it as one of the

herbs that I'm pretty damn sure kills spirochetes...along with

japanese knotweed and cats claw. I'm iffy on the effectiveness of

andrographis and teasel but still take them. Also, it's good to

remember that everyone is different in regards to herxing. It seems

to me that it's largely an immune reaction, so it's not like what

causes it to start and stop is clear cut. Saunas have been immensely

useful in taming herxing and keeping me functioning. I take 2 or 3 a

week and probably should be doing 3 or 4. Killing stuff off is good,

but it's the saunas that keep me going through it all. I think

everyone should try sarsaparilla and am surprised with it's history

of use in syphilis that it is not used more. I just brewed up a

jar. I use the jamaican sarsaparilla. It's a lot cheaper to buy the

bulk herb and it seems to keep it's potency really well if stored

properly (personal experience). I don't use it everyday, more as an

occasional adjunct. My body doesn't like to use it a lot. I get to

where I find the smell repulsive if I use it too much. I figure I'm

trying to tell myself something, so I use it moderately. Brew it

with a lid on as the active ingredients are supposed to be volatile.

Steve e

January 18, 2009

Just thought to mention a natural supplement which also helps bladder

infections, called d-mannose. I first learned about this from a

health letter. There is a lot of info on the internet about this

product. Here is just one discussion:

http://www.tahoma-clinic.com/mannose.shtml

>

> In my experience with several abx's, it not HERXing when it NEVER

> ENDS, herxing being an overload of toxins due to die off or die off

> in itself.. I spent six month on Flagyl in a so called Herx state,

> not being aware of hardly anything around me .. I think rather its a

> reaction to the infection. It did not help neuro, but bladder dx'd

> as Interstialsistis ICS, and bowel called IBS, it cleared .. then

> started coming back again lately, control it with Cranberry capsules

> which create aciditic bladder which bacteria tend not to like. I

> also use female suppositories used the way they are suppose to be

> used and it crosses over to the bladder, so, if its a bacteria in my

> bladder, how is it that an antifungal such as Miconazole helps it

> when I take it fairly regulary...Difucon and Nizarole didnt do

> anything for me .. my toenails fell off and my hair is falling out

> with some kind of infection no one wants to pay any attention to.. I

> think candida mutates and becomes reistant very easily .. or

> something in that general area.

>

> Herx has never made sense to me .. because the way its described

> never fit what I experienced. IT never ended !!

>

> OH, I was going to say, Smilax/Sarsaparilla is great stuff, gave me

> natural energy .. made a lot of the tincture myself .. a lot better

> than they sell for so much.. But, it being slightly stimulating in

> nature .. I cant take it after my heart attack caused by lyme which

> causes hypercoagulation (thick blood) make sure your doc tests for

> this .. its not only common with lyme but any longer standing

> infection and also as being exposed to so many varied things as we

> age our immune system creats thick blood as well .. a lot of

> misdiagnosed ALS cases out there, its so sad, they dont have to be in

> that world .. if only the docs knew what they where doing..

>

> I thought of any easy way to describe modern medicine as it

> pertains to the typical doc, or to help someone get a clue of whats

> going on in the typical medical arena. What are the basic needs for

> or health? ... emmm... Nutrients, right .. most basic fundamental

> things our body needs .. Yet, when was the last time you heard a

> doctor mention them ??? .. Hmmm .. think pharm has a bit to much

> influence in the way doctors practice today perhaps?? .. Todays

> medicine has its place, but only when combined with Natural .. which

> is called Integrative.

>

> Ive been sick to long .. without healthcare, so Im a bit moody at

> present..

>

January 18, 2009

We've had toe nails falling off here in our family as well. We've been taking

Grapefruit Seed Extract for many months now and the nails are in much better

shape now - the new nail growth seems to be reattaching to the skin underneath.

Also, I notice our hair falls out more when we lessen our intact of milk thistle

- clogs the drains pretty badly at times. I'm guessing in our case, it could be

toxic overload.

That's interesting that you had good results using a tincture as I've read it's

not as effective using a tincture because the constituents are water soluble but

not alcohol soluble. I know Buhner suggests the tablet form or encapsulating

over tinctures. But I'm glad you got results with it.

Good point about vitamins but I think some of us have problems absorbing them

anyway due to our systems being so messed up with all of the infections. In our

home, I've found that as we clear some of our infectious load, our digestion

problems and IBS seems to have improved a bit.

Best Wishes on your journey.

[ ] Re: Smilax/Sarsaparilla