Re: Not a tick borne infection

[Guest guest]

>

> I have stopped all treatments, allopathic and alternative, for now. I have

been reading the work of Dr Yannick, and he says even alternative things

like Oregano Oil and Colloidal Silver, as well as many herbs, destroy our

commensal (good bacteria. The trick is.....you can't just take a probiotic to

fix it. It would be nice if probiotics fixed everything, but they don't.

I agree; there are over a thousand different bacteria in the gut alone, and

hundreds of other ones in/on the skin, all kinds of body cavities (including

bacteria and fungi that make antibiotics to protect you!). They are not

'infections', we need many of them.

Just replacing a few common gut bacteria with probiotics will not undo all the

damage. And even if we could replace hundreds of different species, many of the

species are different on an individual basis, matched to your genetics, health

condition, the food you take etc.

IMHO herbs are usually not as bad for your system as ABX, because they don't

kill blindly, so they will only damage part of your 'microbiome' at most.

Because of this I am against 'preemptive' use of antibiotics, like using ABX

after any tick byte even if there is no sign of infection. Taking ABX in the

very early stage of Borrelia infection can prevent the buildup of any immune

response and help the infection (it will proceed silently, under the radar)

instead of stopping it. Unfortunately very little is known about this (e.g. in

what time after tick bite ABX is safe, and when it is not such a good idea).

Of course, everyone has to make their own decision depending on the actual risk

that you see in the situation, and the ability of your body to handle ABX etc.

> Last question: does anyone here have bad reactions to all kinds of ABX?

I don't, but after one year of ABX I had so much problems (liver, gut etc.) that

I had to stop. Since then I have only used herbs, at least my liver and

galbladder are grateful for that

I have heard of people who are allergic to almost every type of ABX (the same

could happen with herbs I guess). On the other side, some people seem to have no

problem at all with taking high doses of ABX. Maybe they have more resiliant

bacteria, or a stronger immune system etc.?

[Guest guest]

Knotweed,

What is current state of your health?

With all your experience and scientific background..as of today what have you

found most helpful?

Jazzman

[ ] Re: Not a tick borne infection

>

> I have stopped all treatments, allopathic and alternative, for now. I have

been reading the work of Dr Yannick, and he says even alternative things

like Oregano Oil and Colloidal Silver, as well as many herbs, destroy our

commensal (good bacteria. The trick is.....you can't just take a probiotic to

fix it. It would be nice if probiotics fixed everything, but they don't.

I agree; there are over a thousand different bacteria in the gut alone, and

hundreds of other ones in/on the skin, all kinds of body cavities (including

bacteria and fungi that make antibiotics to protect you!). They are not

'infections', we need many of them.

Just replacing a few common gut bacteria with probiotics will not undo all the

damage. And even if we could replace hundreds of different species, many of the

species are different on an individual basis, matched to your genetics, health

condition, the food you take etc.

IMHO herbs are usually not as bad for your system as ABX, because they don't

kill blindly, so they will only damage part of your 'microbiome' at most.

Because of this I am against 'preemptive' use of antibiotics, like using ABX

after any tick byte even if there is no sign of infection. Taking ABX in the

very early stage of Borrelia infection can prevent the buildup of any immune

response and help the infection (it will proceed silently, under the radar)

instead of stopping it. Unfortunately very little is known about this (e.g. in

what time after tick bite ABX is safe, and when it is not such a good idea).

Of course, everyone has to make their own decision depending on the actual risk

that you see in the situation, and the ability of your body to handle ABX etc.

> Last question: does anyone here have bad reactions to all kinds of ABX?

I don't, but after one year of ABX I had so much problems (liver, gut etc.) that

I had to stop. Since then I have only used herbs, at least my liver and

galbladder are grateful for that

I have heard of people who are allergic to almost every type of ABX (the same

could happen with herbs I guess). On the other side, some people seem to have no

problem at all with taking high doses of ABX. Maybe they have more resiliant

bacteria, or a stronger immune system etc.?

[Guest guest]

When I was first told I might have Lyme, I googled for its symptoms, as well as

the major co-infections (babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia) and saw that I matched

the majority of Lyme symptoms. So that's a simple check you could do. Google for

Burrascano Lyme symptoms list - he's a doctor who treated it early on and

developed diagnostic and treatment guidelines.

Second, if you feel like testing for it, the IgM and IgG Western blot antibody

tests via the IGeneX lab are the usual tests to do. Only 60-70% show positive,

though, who actually have the illness. 27 reasons for testing negative are

listed at: www.canlyme.com/seronegreasons.html. Same with the other infections -

they may or may not test positive.

So the illness is treated clinically, by history and symptoms. A good LLMD could

listen and have that discussion with you.

Some of us get an experiential confirmation when we start treating with

something, usually antibiotics first. For me, all my fibromyalgia pain of 25

years duration went away in a week's time upon treating with clindamycin

antibiotics.

We're all different when it comes to antibiotics. That's the one that works for

me, but it may not work at all for someone else. Part of the reason for that is

that there are 100+ strains in the US and 300 worldwide, so we all have

different strains, and even genospecies.

All of us, I presume, could have trouble with some particular antibiotic. The

trick, as always, is to see what each of us responds well to. I knew about

clinda since I had already passed it for a prior use. I do have trouble with

most antibiotics.

And everyone should be taking good probiotics while taking antibiotics.

Hope that answers some of your questions. - Robin

[ ] Not a tick borne infection

Hi all,

For years I thought I had Lymes, but now I think it was infections caused by

surgery, plus all the ABX I have taken strengthened the infection.

How do you differentiate infections? Is it important to?

I had ear infections growing up and the " treatment " set me up for physical

fragility later on. Anyone have similar story?

I have stopped all treatments, allopathic and alternative, for now. I have been

reading the work of Dr Yannick, and he says even alternative things like

Oregano Oil and Colloidal Silver, as well as many herbs, destroy our commensal

(good bacteria. The trick is.....you can't just take a probiotic to fix it. It

would be nice if probiotics fixed everything, but they don't.

Last question: does anyone here have bad reactions to all kinds of ABX?

Regards,

Tom in Atlanta

[Guest guest]

>

> Knotweed,

>

> What is current state of your health?

> With all your experience and scientific background..as of today what have you

found most helpful?

My treatment started four years ago with one year of ABX. My neurologist thinks

I have improved tremendously in the last three years (after the ABX, using only

Buhner herbs). But my health is still far from what it was before I got Lyme

(over 6 years ago now).

IMHO the basic Buhner protocol was the most important help. Probably diet

changes (low gluten diet) and detox (chlorella) have helped a bit as well. The

ABX I used before that (especially rocephin) helped well for my acute neurologic

symptoms, but not for many other lyme issues; I stopped ABX because they caused

too many problems for me.

I tried some other things like specific supplements and homeopathic treatment,

but none of those did produce obvious results.

[Guest guest]

Knotweed,

I was officially diagnosed 10+ years ago, but was dealing with symptoms for many

years before......did as many ABX with Burrascano as my gut would tolerate but

never responded at all. Tried Buhner (concurrently with Allimax) but was never

able to increase Raintree Cat's Claw above 500 MG/ Day. Tried substituting

Stephania, Cryptolepsis, but to no avail. After rifing, colloidal

silver,Ambrotose etc, I am now working with an ND who uses her own herbal

remedies (plus Pekan detox formulas) that have been successful with others

including her family. So far I can only increase to a certain level and

struggling, but her testing is show large metabolic improvements, so I am

hoping.

Luckily I can still go to work etc. but a big struggle. I never know if my

issues are the bugs, detox or that my body is so depleted nutritionally.

Jazzman

[ ] Re: Not a tick borne infection

>

> Knotweed,

>

> What is current state of your health?

> With all your experience and scientific background..as of today what have you

found most helpful?

My treatment started four years ago with one year of ABX. My neurologist thinks

I have improved tremendously in the last three years (after the ABX, using only

Buhner herbs). But my health is still far from what it was before I got Lyme

(over 6 years ago now).

IMHO the basic Buhner protocol was the most important help. Probably diet

changes (low gluten diet) and detox (chlorella) have helped a bit as well. The

ABX I used before that (especially rocephin) helped well for my acute neurologic

symptoms, but not for many other lyme issues; I stopped ABX because they caused

too many problems for me.

I tried some other things like specific supplements and homeopathic treatment,

but none of those did produce obvious results.

[Guest guest]

>

> Luckily I can still go to work etc. but a big struggle.

I'm no longer working. I'm self-employed and decided to close down my company

two years ago because I was unable to keep things going well enough. I currently

do some unpaid scientific work related to lyme. The good thing of unpaid is that

I have no official obligations, I can work when I feel good enough.

I guess I could work in a basic low-stress job most of the days, but don't think

that would benefit my health.

> I never know if my issues are the bugs, detox or that my body is so depleted

nutritionally.

yes; I guess that applies for many chronic lyme patients.

Btw, I'm not convinced that Borrelia itself is THE problem in LD; it might be

something loosely associated with Borrelia. Which means that even if you finally

get rid of Borrelia (which is very difficult after 1-2 years) the disease

process might continue.

I'm pretty sure there is a second factor involved that we cannot pin down yet,

probably something that damages the immune system and makes one vulnerable to Bb

(or other) infection. If you don't know what is wrong, you can't correct it and

'heal'. There is probably going to be longterm damage that cannot be undone with

current medical treatments.

You can see a similar pattern in many 'auto-immune diseases', where a

combination of environmental factors (chemical poisoning, processed food,

radiation, stress, etc. etc.) plus a 'trigger' (bacteria, fungi, viruses) starts

the actual disease process; you need both factors for disease to occur.

My neurologist is unsure if my current issues are LD related; I also have an old

chemical poisoning problem that might be at play (stirred up by the Lyme

disease?). And maybe like others some problems due to the ABX treatment ...

The only thing the docs can measure is that I have damaged sensor neurons, even

more than four years ago. My blood tests all look fine. Two years ago I still

had a positive Bb Western Blot and visible spirochetes in the blood, I haven't

checked recently but guess the 'chetes are still there if you look for them.

[Guest guest]

Knotweed,

My virus scores via MDL are in skyrocket territory for EPV, Herpes 6 along with

Myco, borderline Babesia.

Are you on full doseage (8000MG) of Buhner? Is Cat's Claw an absolute essential

component?

Have you ever worked with Mushroom products from Mushroom Harvest, Reischi,

Blend of 14?

Jay

[ ] Re: Not a tick borne infection

>

> Luckily I can still go to work etc. but a big struggle.

I'm no longer working. I'm self-employed and decided to close down my company

two years ago because I was unable to keep things going well enough. I currently

do some unpaid scientific work related to lyme. The good thing of unpaid is that

I have no official obligations, I can work when I feel good enough.

I guess I could work in a basic low-stress job most of the days, but don't think

that would benefit my health.

> I never know if my issues are the bugs, detox or that my body is so depleted

nutritionally.

yes; I guess that applies for many chronic lyme patients.

Btw, I'm not convinced that Borrelia itself is THE problem in LD; it might be

something loosely associated with Borrelia. Which means that even if you finally

get rid of Borrelia (which is very difficult after 1-2 years) the disease

process might continue.

I'm pretty sure there is a second factor involved that we cannot pin down yet,

probably something that damages the immune system and makes one vulnerable to Bb

(or other) infection. If you don't know what is wrong, you can't correct it and

'heal'. There is probably going to be longterm damage that cannot be undone with

current medical treatments.

You can see a similar pattern in many 'auto-immune diseases', where a

combination of environmental factors (chemical poisoning, processed food,

radiation, stress, etc. etc.) plus a 'trigger' (bacteria, fungi, viruses) starts

the actual disease process; you need both factors for disease to occur.

My neurologist is unsure if my current issues are LD related; I also have an old

chemical poisoning problem that might be at play (stirred up by the Lyme

disease?). And maybe like others some problems due to the ABX treatment ...

The only thing the docs can measure is that I have damaged sensor neurons, even

more than four years ago. My blood tests all look fine. Two years ago I still

had a positive Bb Western Blot and visible spirochetes in the blood, I haven't

checked recently but guess the 'chetes are still there if you look for them.

[Guest guest]

>

> My virus scores via MDL are in skyrocket territory for EPV, Herpes 6 along

with Myco, borderline Babesia.

EBV and herpes are very common viruses, I think most people have them but they

cause now harm for them; difficult to say why it is causing trouble for some of

us (this can include many Lyme-like symptoms).

I was recently checked for some viruses like CMV that can cause neuropathy, but

nothing was found. I have been checked for coinfections two times with nothing

found (but the tests are probably very unreliable, so you never know).

If you don't know what really is the core of the problem then 'healthy

lifestyle' is probably the best thing to start with. As they say, Lyme is like

an onion where you peel down the layers and keep solving / finding new problems.

This shows that we don't really understand the problem.

> Are you on full doseage (8000MG) of Buhner? Is Cat's Claw an absolute

essential component?

I have used the full Buhner protocol dosage for about three months, after that

about half the dosage for a year. Currenly I don't use anything except maybe two

1-gram knotweed pills daily. I'm planning to use Eleuthero again next month.

If you have many viruses that suggests your immune system is disfunctional, and

Catsclaw would be the first herb to use. But I think everyone is different, also

for Buhner treatment. I didn't notice much effect from catsclaw myself, while

knotweed worked very well (maybe because I had more neuro-related problems).

Keep in mind that catsclaw can be hard on the liver, maybe that is why some

people cannot work up to full dose (probably depends on the brand that is used

as well ...)

> Have you ever worked with Mushroom products from Mushroom Harvest, Reischi,

Blend of 14?

no, but I know a few people who tried similar products (sometimes even on MD

prescription). I think they are also used to stimulate immune function?

[Guest guest]

thank you

[ ] Re: Not a tick borne infection

>

> My virus scores via MDL are in skyrocket territory for EPV, Herpes 6 along

with Myco, borderline Babesia.

EBV and herpes are very common viruses, I think most people have them but they

cause now harm for them; difficult to say why it is causing trouble for some of

us (this can include many Lyme-like symptoms).

I was recently checked for some viruses like CMV that can cause neuropathy, but

nothing was found. I have been checked for coinfections two times with nothing

found (but the tests are probably very unreliable, so you never know).

If you don't know what really is the core of the problem then 'healthy

lifestyle' is probably the best thing to start with. As they say, Lyme is like

an onion where you peel down the layers and keep solving / finding new problems.

This shows that we don't really understand the problem.

> Are you on full doseage (8000MG) of Buhner? Is Cat's Claw an absolute

essential component?

I have used the full Buhner protocol dosage for about three months, after that

about half the dosage for a year. Currenly I don't use anything except maybe two

1-gram knotweed pills daily. I'm planning to use Eleuthero again next month.

If you have many viruses that suggests your immune system is disfunctional, and

Catsclaw would be the first herb to use. But I think everyone is different, also

for Buhner treatment. I didn't notice much effect from catsclaw myself, while

knotweed worked very well (maybe because I had more neuro-related problems).

Keep in mind that catsclaw can be hard on the liver, maybe that is why some

people cannot work up to full dose (probably depends on the brand that is used

as well ...)

> Have you ever worked with Mushroom products from Mushroom Harvest, Reischi,

Blend of 14?

no, but I know a few people who tried similar products (sometimes even on MD

prescription). I think they are also used to stimulate immune function?

[Guest guest]

Ii have read that some who are sick with lyme and friends feel better after a

course of abx. I however, felt terrible after I began adding each abx

prescribed. By the time I was on doxy, amoxy and plaquinil I had diarhea so bad

and lost so much weight I had to stop. I felt like what chemo patients describe

what they go through. I'm now on the Zhang protocol and was doing very well

until I attempted to do IV EDTA. That made my symtoms increase. So I won't do

EDTA until after I am know that I'm in complete remission. Has anyone had this

experience with EDTA?

Vicki P

> >

> > I have stopped all treatments, allopathic and alternative, for now. I have

been reading the work of Dr Yannick, and he says even alternative things

like Oregano Oil and Colloidal Silver, as well as many herbs, destroy our

commensal (good bacteria. The trick is.....you can't just take a probiotic to

fix it. It would be nice if probiotics fixed everything, but they don't.

>

> I agree; there are over a thousand different bacteria in the gut alone, and

hundreds of other ones in/on the skin, all kinds of body cavities (including

bacteria and fungi that make antibiotics to protect you!). They are not

'infections', we need many of them.

>

> Just replacing a few common gut bacteria with probiotics will not undo all the

damage. And even if we could replace hundreds of different species, many of the

species are different on an individual basis, matched to your genetics, health

condition, the food you take etc.

>

> IMHO herbs are usually not as bad for your system as ABX, because they don't

kill blindly, so they will only damage part of your 'microbiome' at most.

>

> Because of this I am against 'preemptive' use of antibiotics, like using ABX

after any tick byte even if there is no sign of infection. Taking ABX in the

very early stage of Borrelia infection can prevent the buildup of any immune

response and help the infection (it will proceed silently, under the radar)

instead of stopping it. Unfortunately very little is known about this (e.g. in

what time after tick bite ABX is safe, and when it is not such a good idea).

>

> Of course, everyone has to make their own decision depending on the actual

risk that you see in the situation, and the ability of your body to handle ABX

etc.

>

>

> > Last question: does anyone here have bad reactions to all kinds of ABX?

>

> I don't, but after one year of ABX I had so much problems (liver, gut etc.)

that I had to stop. Since then I have only used herbs, at least my liver and

galbladder are grateful for that

>

> I have heard of people who are allergic to almost every type of ABX (the same

could happen with herbs I guess). On the other side, some people seem to have no

problem at all with taking high doses of ABX. Maybe they have more resiliant

bacteria, or a stronger immune system etc.?

>