Re: Lyme and Metals and biofilms

[Guest guest]

Good Point...about folks getting off........

[ ] Lyme and Metals and biofilms

I don't know if this is just a small subset of sick folks, but it seems to me

that many people could be dealing with heavy metal issues (and not necessarily

mercury) as well as Lyme....at the same time. They work off of each other.

So you can kill bad bugs, but they will come right back if your body has metals.

I don't see much mentioned here about metals. Rosner talks about this.

To me, healing would be getting on a protocol and at some point being able to

get off of it, and feel healthy. Does anyone here know one person that has been

able to do that?

Lastly, I am no expert, but it seems that understanding biofilms is the cutting

edge of getting at tenacious physical problems. Anyone know much about biofilms?

[Guest guest]

I think this is a great question and very relevant. I would like to know

the answer to this as well. From what I am reading, some people (myself

included) seem to be unable to get better, despite numerous years of

antibiotics, herbals, etc. I am looking for the missing link to my

treatment so that I can have my life back and eventually not have to take

all these antibiotics/supplements.

[Guest guest]

>

> I don't know if this is just a small subset of sick folks, but it seems to me

that many people could be dealing with heavy metal issues (and not necessarily

mercury) as well as Lyme....at the same time. They work off of each other.

In general I agree, but it is not just about heavy metals. There are loads of

other issues that can cause similar problems.

I think Lyme is similar to many so called 'auto-immune' diseases where people

develop all kinds of problems (often very similar to Lyme disease) as a result

of environmental factors (toxins, heavily processed or GMO food, radiation,

whatever ...). These issues accumulate for a long time until suddenly some

trigger activates the full blown disease. The trigger dan be infection (virus,

bacteria) but also an accident or severe psychological stress.

I recommend reading 'The Autoimmune Epidemic'. It is not about Lyme, and I don't

want to suggest that Lyme is 'auto-immune' like the Steere/Wormser clan suggest.

But there are MANY similarities.

I think 'environmental disease' as used by Buhner and some others in the field

is an excellent discription.

> To me, healing would be getting on a protocol and at some point being able to

get off of it, and feel healthy. Does anyone here know one person that has been

able to do that?

yes, they exist but everyone is different. People who started treatment

relatively early (instead of those starting while they already have chronic

deisease) and those who have just one infection (instead of multiple Bb

varieties or coinfection) have a better chance of full recovery.

There are probably other factors involved that we don't know yet, certainly the

strength of your immune system and probably your faith in recovery (those are

tied) are important.

> Lastly, I am no expert, but it seems that understanding biofilms is the

cutting edge of getting at tenacious physical problems. Anyone know much about

biofilms?

I'm a biochemist, so I know a bit about biofilms. Biofilm is not specific for

Bb, it is quite common. They are important in most infections because they allow

the pathogen to persist and often require far higher loads of ABX to kill all

the pathogens.

There are some novel treatments that could help to get rid of biofilms, but most

of that is still experimental. Some are based on quorum sensing (e.g. use of

garlic with ABX) or use of uncommon amina acid varieties. Other options are

using bacteriophages (virus) to dissolve the biofilm. There is a lot of research

in this area, we should know a lot more in a few years.

For most of the common 'biofilm busters' that are sold as supplements (e.g.

nattokinase, lumbrokinase, etc) I really doubt that they work - they will work

in the gut, maybe a bit in the bloodstream but probably not in the tissues where

most of the Bb biofilms are.

[Guest guest]

Zinc, detoxers and digestive aids are often needed. There are gobs of

little things not working throughout the body. It is important that

cells be healthy in general, so they are not prey to pathogens. The

immune system has to be rebuilt, which means ridding toxins and organ

support. Everything has to be working well in addition to killing the

Lyme. What I have found is that we have to do gobs of things together,

and at the higher doses. We can't just try this than this. We have to

do all kinds of things at the same time, plus a scrupulous diet:

organic, no wheat, no dairy.

Love and prayers,

Heidi N

I think this is a great question and very relevant. I would like to know

the answer to this as well. From what I am reading, some people (myself

included) seem to be unable to get better, despite numerous years of

antibiotics, herbals, etc. I am looking for the missing link to my

treatment so that I can have my life back and eventually not have to take

all these antibiotics/

supplements.

[Guest guest]

Anita, I know that we are supposed to remove irrelevant material from our

messages, but it is not clear which question you are referring to. Is it

whether Lyme sufferers should also deal with mercury and other toxic metals?

If so, I can share experience on this.

I suffered from increasing joint, muscle, and tendon pain for several years,

really intensifying around 2005. I never saw a tic bite or a rash, and so

did not know I had Lyme until 2009. But I was tested for heavy metals and

came out sky-high on mercury. This was after having all of my amalgam

fillings replaced with composite ones. By that time the mercury was in my

bones. I went through several rounds of DMSA chelation over the course of a

year, and the pain only got worse. The challenge tests to diagnose the

problem also made me worse. Then I discovered a product called Chelorex,

developed by a doctor who also provides a link for hair analysis. I have

finally gotten the heavy metals (both mercury and lead) down below the

reference point. In the mean time, I tested positive for Lyme and learned

that Lyme and mercury toxicity reinforce each other. So it is difficult to

get rid of one without the other. Apparently the clever little spirochetes

cling to mercury. So people who test positive for both need to work on both.

I don't know whether we are supposed to avoid promoting products on this

list, so I would simply suggest that if you are concerned about heavy metals

you could Google " Chelorex. " Whatever you do, avoid DMSA or other

pharmaceutical forms of chelation.

Madeleine

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Anita Pelligra

Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 6:44 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Lyme and Metals and biofilms

I think this is a great question and very relevant. I would like to know

the answer to this as well. From what I am reading, some people (myself

included) seem to be unable to get better, despite numerous years of

antibiotics, herbals, etc. I am looking for the missing link to my

treatment so that I can have my life back and eventually not have to take

all these antibiotics/supplements.

[Guest guest]

Heidi wrote:

>We have to

>do all kinds of things at the same time, plus a scrupulous diet:

>organic, no wheat, no dairy

Heidi, thank you for bringing up the " no dairy. " Could you please explain

why? It does not seem to be in Buhner's book. My test results for food

allergies turned up wheat and soy, but not dairy.

I had read elsewhere that one should also be on a low-carb diet because the

spirochetes do not thrive well in a slightly acid environment. So I am now

on low-carb (for three months only, because it's not healthy as a long-term

diet) and have tried to eliminate dairy as well, but found it difficult to

do so simultaneously with low-carb. I do not have the financial means to eat

fish or poultry three times a day, and so fall back on small amounts of

low-fat cheese. Also, because I am hypoglycemic and allergic to soy, I

cannot drink rice milk, almond milk, or soy milk. So if I need to take some

supplements between meals, I take them with a few ounces of milk to avoid

stomach upset.

So I am asking two things: (1) What is the reason for avoiding dairy when

healing from Lyme? (2) Do you have any suggestions for how to avoid dairy

when following a low-carb, no-soy diet?

Madeleine

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

Can you please give more info on the diet part?

I'm lactose intolerant, so I don't do much dairy. I buy organic eggs and some

fruits/veggies, but I don't think I have celiac disease.

More info, please.

-Kathy

Zinc, detoxers and digestive aids are often needed. There are gobs of

little things not working throughout the body. It is important that

cells be healthy in general, so they are not prey to pathogens. The

immune system has to be rebuilt, which means ridding toxins and organ

support. Everything has to be working well in addition to killing the

Lyme. What I have found is that we have to do gobs of things together,

and at the higher doses. We can't just try this than this. We have to

do all kinds of things at the same time, plus a scrupulous diet:

organic, no wheat, no dairy.

Love and prayers,

Heidi N

___

[Guest guest]

My doctor has me on a product called Interfase (yes that's the correct

spelling); used for biofilms. Anyone else trying it? jo

> >

> > I don't know if this is just a small subset of sick folks, but it seems to

me that many people could be dealing with heavy metal issues (and not

necessarily mercury) as well as Lyme....at the same time. They work off of each

other.

>

> In general I agree, but it is not just about heavy metals. There are loads of

other issues that can cause similar problems.

>

> I think Lyme is similar to many so called 'auto-immune' diseases where people

develop all kinds of problems (often very similar to Lyme disease) as a result

of environmental factors (toxins, heavily processed or GMO food, radiation,

whatever ...). These issues accumulate for a long time until suddenly some

trigger activates the full blown disease. The trigger dan be infection (virus,

bacteria) but also an accident or severe psychological stress.

>

> I recommend reading 'The Autoimmune Epidemic'. It is not about Lyme, and I

don't want to suggest that Lyme is 'auto-immune' like the Steere/Wormser clan

suggest. But there are MANY similarities.

>

> I think 'environmental disease' as used by Buhner and some others in the field

is an excellent discription.

>

>

> > To me, healing would be getting on a protocol and at some point being able

to get off of it, and feel healthy. Does anyone here know one person that has

been able to do that?

>

> yes, they exist but everyone is different. People who started treatment

relatively early (instead of those starting while they already have chronic

deisease) and those who have just one infection (instead of multiple Bb

varieties or coinfection) have a better chance of full recovery.

>

> There are probably other factors involved that we don't know yet, certainly

the strength of your immune system and probably your faith in recovery (those

are tied) are important.

>

>

> > Lastly, I am no expert, but it seems that understanding biofilms is the

cutting edge of getting at tenacious physical problems. Anyone know much about

biofilms?

>

> I'm a biochemist, so I know a bit about biofilms. Biofilm is not specific for

Bb, it is quite common. They are important in most infections because they allow

the pathogen to persist and often require far higher loads of ABX to kill all

the pathogens.

>

> There are some novel treatments that could help to get rid of biofilms, but

most of that is still experimental. Some are based on quorum sensing (e.g. use

of garlic with ABX) or use of uncommon amina acid varieties. Other options are

using bacteriophages (virus) to dissolve the biofilm. There is a lot of research

in this area, we should know a lot more in a few years.

>

> For most of the common 'biofilm busters' that are sold as supplements (e.g.

nattokinase, lumbrokinase, etc) I really doubt that they work - they will work

in the gut, maybe a bit in the bloodstream but probably not in the tissues where

most of the Bb biofilms are.

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> My doctor has me on a product called Interfase (yes that's the correct

spelling); used for biofilms. Anyone else trying it?

haven't used it, but reading the info from the manufacturer it seems to be a mix

of some general digestive (proteolytic) enzymes. I don't think it will do much

outside the gut, making it pretty useless against Borrelia (Bb is mostly in the

tissues or even intracellular).

Like many other products it might help with certain gut infections, but I guess

it could also disturb the existing balance in the gut.

[Guest guest]

> In the mean time, I tested positive for Lyme and learned

> that Lyme and mercury toxicity reinforce each other. So it is difficult to

> get rid of one without the other. Apparently the clever little spirochetes

> cling to mercury. So people who test positive for both need to work on both.

yes, these problems reinforce each other, just like many other issues can

(toxins, diet/food problems, stress etc.). The spirochetes don't cling to

mercury, it is just that both are a heavy burden on the immune system (and detox

system etc.).

[Guest guest]

I forgot to mention in my message about mercury testing and mercury

chelation that you should never undergo either one if you have " silver "

fillings in your teeth. Those fillings contain mercury and using a chelation

agent could release the mercury all over your body and cause severe

problems. The fillings first need to be removed by a dentist who knows the

safe protocol for doing so.

Madeleine

[Guest guest]

Thanks Madeline. I was referring to any information regarding what

additional actions we need to take to get better when antibiotic treatment

does not work. Your information was very helpful.

Anita Pelligra

(732) 928-1747 (h)

(732) 598-0358 (cell)

(732) 643-5229 (direct line at work)

[Guest guest]

There is an intolerance to wheat, mostly because of the gluten in it.

Plus all that processed bread at the store is full of junk. There is

something about grains in general that fosters pathogen growth. I have

heard that you can get recipes concerning soaking grains to make them

healthy. But, in general, eating wheat and dairy makes the immune

system all that more dysfunctional. It is all over the Internet,

connected with many various diagnoses, autism, MS, Lyme, etc. Removing

wheat was very big for us. Once again there is lots of science, but I

rely mostly on reports from results. I have been researching for 4

years, and it is very prevalent that removing wheat and dairy has helped

gobs of those on the forums, so that is why I did it. If it didn't

work, I wouldn't do it. I miss the wheat and dairy, but would rather

keep my health.

Love and prayers,

Heidi N

Heidi-

Can you please give more info on the diet part?

I'm lactose intolerant, so I don't do much dairy. I buy organic eggs and

some fruits/veggies, but I don't think I have celiac disease.

More info, please.

-Kathy

Zinc, detoxers and digestive aids are often needed. There are gobs of

little things not working throughout the body. It is important that

cells be healthy in general, so they are not prey to pathogens. The

immune system has to be rebuilt, which means ridding toxins and organ

support. Everything has to be working well in addition to killing the

Lyme. What I have found is that we have to do gobs of things together,

and at the higher doses. We can't just try this than this. We have to

do all kinds of things at the same time, plus a scrupulous diet:

organic, no wheat, no dairy.

Love and prayers,

Heidi N

[Guest guest]

The technical term is that the spirochetes sequester mercury. (I prefer the

word " cling " because it is clearer.) It is not simply that both are a heavy

burden on the immune system. There is an actual synergism between Lyme

disease and mercury toxicity. That is why it is important to work on both

problems simultaneously or one will have difficulty healing from either.

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of knot_weed

Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 5:32 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Lyme and Metals and biofilms

yes, these problems reinforce each other, just like many other issues can

(toxins, diet/food problems, stress etc.). The spirochetes don't cling to

mercury, it is just that both are a heavy burden on the immune system (and

detox system etc.).

[Guest guest]

>

> But, in general, eating wheat and dairy makes the immune

> system all that more dysfunctional. It is all over the Internet,

> connected with many various diagnoses, autism, MS, Lyme, etc. Removing

> wheat was very big for us. Once again there is lots of science, but I

> rely mostly on reports from results.

I think that maybe it is more the other way round: some people have compromised

or over-active immune systems that have trouble dealing with the relatively

strong antigenic breakdown products from wheat, cow milk etc.

Many people develop these food tolerance problems (e.g. 'leaky gut') after they

get lyme or certain 'auto-immune' diseases. I don't doubt the connection, just

don't think there is a direct cause-and-effect relation here.

[Guest guest]

>

> The technical term is that the spirochetes sequester mercury. (I prefer the

> word " cling " because it is clearer.) It is not simply that both are a heavy

> burden on the immune system.

hmm ... I have never seen any scientific proof of that.

why would Borrelia sequester mercury??

[Guest guest]

I have seen reports that Borrelia is 50% by weight heavy metals. That

it actually coats itsself in mercury. What is more important though is

the many forum postings that I have seen that say, " treating Lyme caused

more mercury to spill out into the stools and urine than any other

treatment or chelation we tried. " These are from people who test their

urine and stools on a continuous basis for toxins. Anyhow, you can

Google " Lyme mercury 50% " and look for the reports or just Google " Lyme

mercury " and you will find all kinds of great info.

Love and prayers,

Heidi N

hmm ... I have never seen any scientific proof of that.

why would Borrelia sequester mercury??

[Guest guest]

Has anyone tried the Blood type diet or the Geno type diet? I think it helps me.

I've been eating this way for years, but just recently found out I have Lyme. So

it certainly hasn't kept my from getting Lyme, but maybe it will help with the

recovery. I recently (last year) gave up all wheat, most dairy, and all simple

sugars (on the Geno type diet). I got rid of my candida problem, but then

suddenly had huge symptoms (heart related) that ended up being Lyme.

Interesting...

Connie Blaze

[ ] Re: Lyme and Metals and biofilms

>

> But, in general, eating wheat and dairy makes the immune

> system all that more dysfunctional. It is all over the Internet,

> connected with many various diagnoses, autism, MS, Lyme, etc. Removing

> wheat was very big for us. Once again there is lots of science, but I

> rely mostly on reports from results.

I think that maybe it is more the other way round: some people have compromised

or over-active immune systems that have trouble dealing with the relatively

strong antigenic breakdown products from wheat, cow milk etc.

Many people develop these food tolerance problems (e.g. 'leaky gut') after they

get lyme or certain 'auto-immune' diseases. I don't doubt the connection, just

don't think there is a direct cause-and-effect relation here.

[Guest guest]

>

> I have seen reports that Borrelia is 50% by weight heavy metals. That

> it actually coats itsself in mercury.

I have done some searching in scientific articles and there is ZERO reports

about this. I have seen some stories in semi-scientific websites, but those

don't count. 50% heavy metals sounds totally impossible, biochemically. If that

were true, you could probably fish out the spirochetes by using a strong magnet

(maybe I should patent that before some alternative doc starts offering the

treatment ...).

> What is more important though is

> the many forum postings that I have seen that say, " treating Lyme caused

> more mercury to spill out into the stools and urine than any other

> treatment or chelation we tried. " These are from people who test their

> urine and stools on a continuous basis for toxins.

even if this is true, it doesn't mean the mercury or heavy metals are in/on the

Bb. It is far more likely they are mobilized by the treatment (e.g. chelating

agents), irrespective of the question if the patient has Lyme disease.