Re: not victims

[Guest guest]

Ellen, just tell me what you tought about 's film. I don't like

him as a film-maker (he's very bad on technics), but I like his

choice of themes, at least, no one stays impassive.

Nice to know that there are still medical doctors that are human!

They are rare though!!!

Have you also seen Super Size Me? It's scary what a bad diet can do

to even a healthy guy!

I also wonder if many of the CFS people were not lyme sufferers...

Selma

>

> well said Selma.

>

> I see us as pioneers and trail-blazers. [albeit unwilling ones.]

> I see the Lyme community being today where the Chronic Fatigue

> community was perhaps 10 years ago.

>

> I remember reading and hearing people in that community who were

> trying to convince others that they were indeed sick. That it wasn't

> 'all in their head'.

>

> It was due to these brave patients and a few good doctors that today

> CFS is recognized (mostly) as a disease. It's a shame when the

medical

> establishment (led by the insurance industry) becomes the enemy,

when

> patients have to fight not just the disease, but also their doctor.

>

> Speaking of which tonite I'm going to see " Sicko " 's

> movie. I heard so much of it already on TV talk shows and on the

> radio, and so many interviews with . Nevertheless it will be

good

> to see the whole thing as a piece. I learned something I hadn't

known

> about - that his father had been a doctor, but a doctor who

> went into it for the healing, not for the $. His father used to get

> paid in chickens etc, and never turned anyone away for lack of

funds.

>

>

> ellen

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Guys, wonderful posts, I hope Jim will read them all. Not a

single lyme

> > patient has scaped the stigma of being lazy, or incapable, or

unstable,

> > or even 'impotent/ undersexed' (is this English?) and so on.

> >

> > I dont' see us only as victims though, as I'm pretty sure that

many of

> > us would have reacted similar if the situation was inverse (our

loved

> > ones being the sick ones with a mistery disease and we

the 'healthy'

> > ones).

> >

> > Sad to say that, but at least it makes me feel better as I'm

tired to

> > see myself as victim ONLY...

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Selma,

I do think he is a great film-maker. I thought Columbine was rather

slow, I preferred Farenheit 911. I thought the latter was brilliant.

In one scene in 911 he ambushes a group of US senators and asks, " How

many of you have a son or daughter serving in Iraq? "

Of course, none did. This carries more of a wallop than reading the fact.

What I like about SICKO:

-*not* the title!

Example - I know that the US is the only industrialized country that

does not offer universal health care.

Knowing that does not have the impact of watching in a cafe with

about 10 or 12 French people, and in response to his questions, they

describe the medical care they get for Free! And they take it for granted.

To a US person this is astounding.

Even tho I knew the abstract fact, I never really took it in the way I

did hearing it from the people. And the people are so common-place

about it. As if, of course this is how things are and how they should be.

He interviews a former Insurance company employee who describes how

she got a bonus and advanced in her job based on how many people she

could deny benefits to. She wept as she confessed that her actions had

resulted in people's deaths.

He interviews a young woman who took her 18-month old to a hospital

for high fever. The hospital recommended a certain procedure for the

child, the mother's insurance carrier would not approve the procedure.

End result - the child died.

Just a few examples.

It's quite a compelling movie.

Maybe if I was a film-maker I could find fault with his techiques, but

if so, that would pale compared to the truths he lays bare.

let me know what you think if you see it.

best,

ellen

>

> Ellen, just tell me what you tought about 's film.

[Guest guest]

Yes, the French take it for granted, because they don't have to put up with a

government that sends our money up to the moon, or puts it into insurance

company or petroleum companies pockets.

AND we could ADD, doctors, lawyers, dentists, politicians, etc., etc., etc..

Jim.

###

rasheedaas <rasheedaas@...> wrote:

Hi Selma,

I do think he is a great film-maker. I thought Columbine was rather

slow, I preferred Farenheit 911. I thought the latter was brilliant.

In one scene in 911 he ambushes a group of US senators and asks, " How

many of you have a son or daughter serving in Iraq? "

Of course, none did. This carries more of a wallop than reading the fact.

What I like about SICKO:

-*not* the title!

Example - I know that the US is the only industrialized country that

does not offer universal health care.

Knowing that does not have the impact of watching in a cafe with

about 10 or 12 French people, and in response to his questions, they

describe the medical care they get for Free! And they take it for granted.

To a US person this is astounding.

Even tho I knew the abstract fact, I never really took it in the way I

did hearing it from the people. And the people are so common-place

about it. As if, of course this is how things are and how they should be.

He interviews a former Insurance company employee who describes how

she got a bonus and advanced in her job based on how many people she

could deny benefits to. She wept as she confessed that her actions had

resulted in people's deaths.

He interviews a young woman who took her 18-month old to a hospital

for high fever. The hospital recommended a certain procedure for the

child, the mother's insurance carrier would not approve the procedure.

End result - the child died.

Just a few examples.

It's quite a compelling movie.

Maybe if I was a film-maker I could find fault with his techiques, but

if so, that would pale compared to the truths he lays bare.

let me know what you think if you see it.

best,

ellen

>

> Ellen, just tell me what you tought about 's film.

---------------------------------

Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join 's user panel and

lay it on us.

[Guest guest]

hi

i haven't seen this film but health care is not free in france, you pay about

30% of the cost so people take out insurnance to cover this in us dollars

around$1,000 a year and quality of services varies. i also saw a clip about the

uk system. in the uk it's free but quality can be very poor and with long

waiting lists many people choose to go private. however in both these countires

you wouldn't be refused care if you couldn't pay as far as i know so more

civilised than usa in this sense, but conversely in usa easier to take acton

against negligent doctors it seems. if you have lyme overall you'd be a lot

better of in usa than uk or france at the moment though from what i can see. of

course tricky to go into detail in a 2hr film.

jaco

Re: [ ] Re: not victims

Yes, the French take it for granted, because they don't have to put up with a

government that sends our money up to the moon, or puts it into insurance

company or petroleum companies pockets.

AND we could ADD, doctors, lawyers, dentists, politicians, etc., etc., etc..

Jim.

[Guest guest]

Ellen, Jim, Jaco and all,

Add Irak, Jim, what the hell are these soldiers still doing there

with the money of you tax payers ?? But as the guy is re-elected, it

means that's what you guys chose ??

Yes chooses his topics well, no doubt!! I did film school too,

that's why I'm a bit more difficult than others... I always go see

his films, can't wait to see this one. I see it for the content, not

for the format!!!

It wouldn't make a difference to see his films on TV or on big

screen, if you see what I mean. That's why I think he's not a good

film maker!!

JACO, but there's a difference, for sure. See guys in Belgium that

are unemployed, they ALL have right to get the same (or very similar)

treatment than others, and Belgium has one of the top health system

in the world (while the UK has got one of the worst in the developed

world...).

In Belgium, I complained I had to pay also about 20-30% of costs (if

I remember well) for my dentist, medicine, doctors. But this has

nothing to do with the US system!!! It's uncomparable!

My parents live in Brazil that had borrowed the damm US system of

health insurances. You have to pay the state health insurance

(obligatory but it means death sentence if you need it), then still

private insurances (very expensive and will not get everybody, and if

you're in bad shape you have to pay much more, the older you get, you

pay more).

My parents are 68-70 years old, they receive almost nothing from the

social security having worked their whole lives. Well, the retirement

fee my father receives a month can't pay even HIS private health

insurance. And he still has to pay my moms' insurance plus life

costs. And he's an engineer who had worked for international car

companies all his life!! This is unthinkable here in Europe. I can't

even explain that to people here, they just don't understand that

that's possible.

What I'm living here with lyme in Switzerland is a shame though,

because lyme is not recognized/ difficult to get a diagnosis. So I

have to go with parallel treatment TOO. But even so, my doctor is

paid by the insurance.

I have to pay homeopathy 100% that he prescribes though, but it's not

that much. Dentists I pay private too, but in Belgium, they're in

included. People receive less money (net salaries are lower in

Belgium) than in Switzerland, so it's all balanced somehow. For sick

guys, it's better to be in Belgium (pay lots of taxes, but health

system covers everything including dentists), but for healthy guys,

much better in Switzerland (as you pay less taxes).

I know there are problems in all the state or private health systems

in Europe, but there's no comparison to what I see that goes on in

Brazil (that copied the US system!!). I hear people paying 800

dollars to one single consultation with a LLMD for a few minutes in

the US???? Prices are absurd there, no matter who pays what

(insurance or private)!!!

The difference of treatments from who has more money and less money

here in Europe is not that big as in the US and in Brazil. The UK is

a horrible example, I don't consider the UK very European in this

sense...

Let's just put numbers here: how much you guys pay a year for your

health insurance? How much of the treatment it covers?

I pay 3,915 dollars a year for my semi-private insurance here in

Switzerland (this doesn't make even a salary's net month for us). I

chose the lowest franchise these last 2 years because of lyme.

Every time I go see a doctor, I'll pay 10 % then for medicine and

treatment during the whole year. A LLMD (or the lyme ILLITERATE

doctor) I saw costed me: 411 dollars with Western blot and many blood

exams. It was damm expensive already, of which I paid everything as I

was with highest franchise that time (as I never went to doctors

before I caught lyme)...

But today, as I got the lowest franchise, it would have costed me 41

dollars.

Now I pay 32 dollars for a 2 HOUR consultation with my actual LLMD.

My homeopathics cost me more, about 60 dollars because it's not

covered by the insurance!!!

I go see a naturopath though, and I pay her 100%, because I go abroad

for treatmetn and I don't have insurance for alternative treatment.

She charges 80 euro/ hour. She's the right hand of Dr. K. here in

Europe.

In Belgium, the more you earn, the more you pay a month for health

system. Who earns less, pay less. My family doctor there who's an

homeopath charges 25 euro/ hour!!!

He teaches at the university too and is (or was?) the president of

the homeopathic society there. Have you ever seen a doctor who

charges 25 euro AN HOUR in the US (full price)???

Selma

>

> hi

>

> i haven't seen this film but health care is not free in france, you

pay about 30% of the cost so people take out insurnance to cover this

in us dollars around$1,000 a year and quality of services varies. i

also saw a clip about the uk system. in the uk it's free but quality

can be very poor and with long waiting lists many people choose to go

private. however in both these countires you wouldn't be refused care

if you couldn't pay as far as i know so more civilised than usa in

this sense, but conversely in usa easier to take acton against

negligent doctors it seems. if you have lyme overall you'd be a lot

better of in usa than uk or france at the moment though from what i

can see. of course tricky to go into detail in a 2hr film.

>

> jaco

>

[Guest guest]

Selma:

First off, I don't know WHAT 25 Euro an hour is. WHAT it equates in US

dollars.

Second: " I " did NOT choose the current President and HIS regime. I do not

CHOOSE ANY man ruled regime. IF I did vote here, I definitely would NOT have

voted for him, to be sure. He is probably the worst president we have ever had

and his popularity rating is showing it. He has the lowest popularity of any

president, ever right now.

ALSO, people here in Wisconsin did NOT vote him in. They voted for his

opponent. IT is the same in the northeast of the country where Lyme is so

endemic. THEY as a majority voted democrat. IT was the BIBLE BELT mainly that

voted Republican and got him elected. I HOPE they are happy.

BUT Politics is politics and I doubt very much if anyone would do much good in

there now. Everyone has to pat the back of the others IF they want to get

anything voted in.

I am wondering WHY Brazil adopted the US insurance plans? Do the oil

companies own Brazil? Or some US industries? I don't follow the news that

much so don't know, and don't too much care, as it is all going down the tubes

anyway. Some may not agree with me, but it is exactly what is happening.

I won't comment much any further, as I try to stay out of this systems

politics. You probably won't get much farther than discussing Religion.

take care,

Jim.

###

selmanaka <hardynaka@...> wrote:

Ellen, Jim, Jaco and all,

Add Irak, Jim, what the hell are these soldiers still doing there

with the money of you tax payers ?? But as the guy is re-elected, it

means that's what you guys chose ??

Yes chooses his topics well, no doubt!! I did film school too,

that's why I'm a bit more difficult than others... I always go see

his films, can't wait to see this one. I see it for the content, not

for the format!!!

It wouldn't make a difference to see his films on TV or on big

screen, if you see what I mean. That's why I think he's not a good

film maker!!

JACO, but there's a difference, for sure. See guys in Belgium that

are unemployed, they ALL have right to get the same (or very similar)

treatment than others, and Belgium has one of the top health system

in the world (while the UK has got one of the worst in the developed

world...).

In Belgium, I complained I had to pay also about 20-30% of costs (if

I remember well) for my dentist, medicine, doctors. But this has

nothing to do with the US system!!! It's uncomparable!

My parents live in Brazil that had borrowed the damm US system of

health insurances. You have to pay the state health insurance

(obligatory but it means death sentence if you need it), then still

private insurances (very expensive and will not get everybody, and if

you're in bad shape you have to pay much more, the older you get, you

pay more).

My parents are 68-70 years old, they receive almost nothing from the

social security having worked their whole lives. Well, the retirement

fee my father receives a month can't pay even HIS private health

insurance. And he still has to pay my moms' insurance plus life

costs. And he's an engineer who had worked for international car

companies all his life!! This is unthinkable here in Europe. I can't

even explain that to people here, they just don't understand that

that's possible.

What I'm living here with lyme in Switzerland is a shame though,

because lyme is not recognized/ difficult to get a diagnosis. So I

have to go with parallel treatment TOO. But even so, my doctor is

paid by the insurance.

I have to pay homeopathy 100% that he prescribes though, but it's not

that much. Dentists I pay private too, but in Belgium, they're in

included. People receive less money (net salaries are lower in

Belgium) than in Switzerland, so it's all balanced somehow. For sick

guys, it's better to be in Belgium (pay lots of taxes, but health

system covers everything including dentists), but for healthy guys,

much better in Switzerland (as you pay less taxes).

I know there are problems in all the state or private health systems

in Europe, but there's no comparison to what I see that goes on in

Brazil (that copied the US system!!). I hear people paying 800

dollars to one single consultation with a LLMD for a few minutes in

the US???? Prices are absurd there, no matter who pays what

(insurance or private)!!!

The difference of treatments from who has more money and less money

here in Europe is not that big as in the US and in Brazil. The UK is

a horrible example, I don't consider the UK very European in this

sense...

Let's just put numbers here: how much you guys pay a year for your

health insurance? How much of the treatment it covers?

I pay 3,915 dollars a year for my semi-private insurance here in

Switzerland (this doesn't make even a salary's net month for us). I

chose the lowest franchise these last 2 years because of lyme.

Every time I go see a doctor, I'll pay 10 % then for medicine and

treatment during the whole year. A LLMD (or the lyme ILLITERATE

doctor) I saw costed me: 411 dollars with Western blot and many blood

exams. It was damm expensive already, of which I paid everything as I

was with highest franchise that time (as I never went to doctors

before I caught lyme)...

But today, as I got the lowest franchise, it would have costed me 41

dollars.

Now I pay 32 dollars for a 2 HOUR consultation with my actual LLMD.

My homeopathics cost me more, about 60 dollars because it's not

covered by the insurance!!!

I go see a naturopath though, and I pay her 100%, because I go abroad

for treatmetn and I don't have insurance for alternative treatment.

She charges 80 euro/ hour. She's the right hand of Dr. K. here in

Europe.

In Belgium, the more you earn, the more you pay a month for health

system. Who earns less, pay less. My family doctor there who's an

homeopath charges 25 euro/ hour!!!

He teaches at the university too and is (or was?) the president of

the homeopathic society there. Have you ever seen a doctor who

charges 25 euro AN HOUR in the US (full price)???

Selma

[Guest guest]

Hi Jaco,

I disagree with this:

" in usa easier to take acton against negligent doctors it seems. " ---

As far as Lyme goes it seems that the situation could not be worse in

so far as people with Lyme and sympathetic doctors, who are charged

and tried to be driven out of practice.

As far as long waiting times, we always hear a lot about this, some of

what we hear is certainly AMA propaganda.

I have a friend (in America) who has gastro disturbances so great they

keep her up at night, and she has to wait a month just to get an

appointment with a doctor. Same for my sister-in-law.

ellen

[Guest guest]

I think it is obscene that life and death matters, like your health,

are governed by how much money you have.

What if you called 911 for a fire-fighter or a police-officer because

your life was in danger, and the first question was, " What kind of

insurance do you have? "

That is what every doctor and medical office in the US asks before

they ask, " What is the matter with you? "

What if you called a fire-fighter to fight your house on fire, and the

response was, 'show me the insurance or show me $7000 in cash and I

will fight the fire, otherwise, it can burn to the ground.'

What if you are being robbed at gunpoint or being raped, and the

police says, 'show me insurance or $20,000 in cash or you are on your

own.'

That's what our 'health care' system in US is.

Many people think well, you can go to the emergency room. It is true

that many emergency rooms provide excellent care to auto accident

victims for example. It is also true that some emergency rooms let

people die, like that woman in a LA hospital who recently died.

I was in an emergency room with a friend, a bicyclist, who had been

hit by a car and had several bones broken. He waited several hours.

Also waiting several hours was a Vietnamese man who appeared to be in

terrible agony, he moaned continually. I'll never forget sitting there

for several hours listening to him moan. He was totally unattended.

If I needed eye surgery I am plum out of luck. It would cost several

thousand dollars. My early Lyme test cost $500. Recently my doctor

said there was some test which was more accurate, but it was 'very

expensive'. What is 'very expensive'?

When your income is $500 a week, $500 for that first Lyme test which

came out of my pocket, is expensive enough.

'Very expensive' must mean a couple of thousand dollars.

Believe me, you do not want to be poor and sick in US.

ellen

[Guest guest]

HEY Ellen:

WHAT IF, you only get about $125.00 a week like me?

Jim

###

rasheedaas <rasheedaas@...> wrote:

I think it is obscene that life and death matters, like your health,

are governed by how much money you have.

What if you called 911 for a fire-fighter or a police-officer because

your life was in danger, and the first question was, " What kind of

insurance do you have? "

That is what every doctor and medical office in the US asks before

they ask, " What is the matter with you? "

What if you called a fire-fighter to fight your house on fire, and the

response was, 'show me the insurance or show me $7000 in cash and I

will fight the fire, otherwise, it can burn to the ground.'

What if you are being robbed at gunpoint or being raped, and the

police says, 'show me insurance or $20,000 in cash or you are on your

own.'

That's what our 'health care' system in US is.

Many people think well, you can go to the emergency room. It is true

that many emergency rooms provide excellent care to auto accident

victims for example. It is also true that some emergency rooms let

people die, like that woman in a LA hospital who recently died.

I was in an emergency room with a friend, a bicyclist, who had been

hit by a car and had several bones broken. He waited several hours.

Also waiting several hours was a Vietnamese man who appeared to be in

terrible agony, he moaned continually. I'll never forget sitting there

for several hours listening to him moan. He was totally unattended.

If I needed eye surgery I am plum out of luck. It would cost several

thousand dollars. My early Lyme test cost $500. Recently my doctor

said there was some test which was more accurate, but it was 'very

expensive'. What is 'very expensive'?

When your income is $500 a week, $500 for that first Lyme test which

came out of my pocket, is expensive enough.

'Very expensive' must mean a couple of thousand dollars.

Believe me, you do not want to be poor and sick in US.

ellen

---------------------------------

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Guest guest]

I would love to buy insurance for 1000 a year. When my hospital job

terminated my job and insurance I was offered cobra coverage for over 1100 a

month.

France is cheap.

Dagmar

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

hi Ellen

if you speak to a medical negligence lawyer they will be able to explain the

reason for the amount of cases in europe and the states. It's just not been part

of the culture here although in my opinion people are beginning to try and hold

doctors more accountable. also people with lyme travel to america not vice-versa

as far as i am aware because it is easier to get long term abx and see an

expert. waiting times are better in england now to see an infectious disease

consultant maybe 3months (used to be about a year) in france i think it is about

a month

Anyway the moore film is about access issues and excluding people who can't pay

which is clearly barbaric in America and not such an issue in western Europe.

Like most things if you could take the good aspects from all countries you'd

have the more ideal system lets hope one day this happens, lets hope the moore

film has a positive impact.

Jaco

[ ] Re: not victims

Hi Jaco,

I disagree with this:

" in usa easier to take acton against negligent doctors it seems. " ---

As far as Lyme goes it seems that the situation could not be worse in

so far as people with Lyme and sympathetic doctors, who are charged

and tried to be driven out of practice.

As far as long waiting times, we always hear a lot about this, some of

what we hear is certainly AMA propaganda.

I have a friend (in America) who has gastro disturbances so great they

keep her up at night, and she has to wait a month just to get an

appointment with a doctor. Same for my sister-in-law.

ellen

[Guest guest]

Jim, glad you didn't vote for this guy!! I just say 'you' for you

guys in the US in general, (not for you Jim!) because he won this

election again! Bad hit for healht system and education, social

security etc ....

I won't go on here, as this is no political forum!

1 euro = 1.4 us dollars

25 euro= 34 us dollars

I hope you ARE feeling a bit better (emotionally). It's such a

stress. Sorry I didn't answer your email yet....

I'm just HERXING LOADS HERE, as I stopped artemisinin and added a

herb that never tested good for me before and is testing good now (an

Amazonian herb called AMARGO, anti malarial).

I also found another rub-on mix of oils (Living Young brand, I think)

that removes heavy metals, fungi, and even kill many tick co-

infections (according to my muscle tests) and started rubbing all

over (more herxes!!!).

I'm a bit out of circuit today, full of arthritic herxes even in my

left wrist.... Or it's the heavy metal pulling, not sure...

My skin got soo soft exactly when I take stronger metal detox

products, so I guess it IS moving metals! I'll post about that later!

Take care!

Selma

>

> Selma:

> First off, I don't know WHAT 25 Euro an hour is. WHAT it

equates in US dollars.

>

> Second: " I " did NOT choose the current President and HIS

regime. I do not CHOOSE ANY man ruled regime. IF I did vote here, I

definitely would NOT have voted for him, to be sure. He is probably

the worst president we have ever had and his popularity rating is

showing it. He has the lowest popularity of any president, ever

right now.

>

> ALSO, people here in Wisconsin did NOT vote him in. They voted

for his opponent. IT is the same in the northeast of the country

where Lyme is so endemic. THEY as a majority voted democrat. IT was

the BIBLE BELT mainly that voted Republican and got him elected. I

HOPE they are happy.

>

> BUT Politics is politics and I doubt very much if anyone would do

much good in there now. Everyone has to pat the back of the others

IF they want to get anything voted in.

>

> I am wondering WHY Brazil adopted the US insurance plans? Do

the oil companies own Brazil? Or some US industries? I don't

follow the news that much so don't know, and don't too much care, as

it is all going down the tubes anyway. Some may not agree with me,

but it is exactly what is happening.

>

> I won't comment much any further, as I try to stay out of this

systems politics. You probably won't get much farther than

discussing Religion.

>

> take care,

> Jim.

> ###

>

[Guest guest]

Selma:

Yes, a little better emotionally. Time is a great healer. However I got food

poisoning a few days ago, and had a tough time with that and diarrhea etc.. It

is better now, but I am having some of my early Lyme symptoms, like pain behind

the knees in tendons, which I have not had for over a year. Also brain fog

yesterday. A little better today.

Jim.

###

selmanaka <hardynaka@...> wrote:

Jim, glad you didn't vote for this guy!! I just say 'you' for you

guys in the US in general, (not for you Jim!) because he won this

election again! Bad hit for healht system and education, social

security etc ....

I won't go on here, as this is no political forum!

1 euro = 1.4 us dollars

25 euro= 34 us dollars

I hope you ARE feeling a bit better (emotionally). It's such a

stress. Sorry I didn't answer your email yet....

I'm just HERXING LOADS HERE, as I stopped artemisinin and added a

herb that never tested good for me before and is testing good now (an

Amazonian herb called AMARGO, anti malarial).

I also found another rub-on mix of oils (Living Young brand, I think)

that removes heavy metals, fungi, and even kill many tick co-

infections (according to my muscle tests) and started rubbing all

over (more herxes!!!).

I'm a bit out of circuit today, full of arthritic herxes even in my

left wrist.... Or it's the heavy metal pulling, not sure...

My skin got soo soft exactly when I take stronger metal detox

products, so I guess it IS moving metals! I'll post about that later!

Take care!

Selma