CNN article

August 6, 2003

How extremely sad.........I wish she could have found all of us for support.

There is still so much work to be done educating and helping those who feel so

alone. If only she would have realized how much joy her child could have given

her....

Jackie, Mom to 15ds, 12, and Bradley 9

August 6, 2003

Jackie, that is so true. The support I received after was born from

other parents was wonderful, and then finding this group goes without

saying.

Sharon H.

Mom to , (11, DS) and , (8)

South Carolina

Re: CNN article

>

> How extremely sad.........I wish she could have found all of us for

support.

> There is still so much work to be done educating and helping those who

feel so

> alone. If only she would have realized how much joy her child could have

given

> her....

>

> Jackie, Mom to 15ds, 12, and Bradley 9

>

August 6, 2003

yes this sad about the 38 yr old Mother on the Faculty at Villanova that

killed her infant we live about an hour and half from Villanova and My brother

Class of 1983 and my Late Father Class of 1955 are Alumni from Villanova; we

are in shock from this tragic event Di Dad to

Jeanna and Jr from Mays Landing NJ

August 7, 2003

>> How extremely sad.........I wish she could have found all of us for

support.

There is still so much work to be done educating and helping those who feel

so

alone. If only she would have realized how much joy her child could have

given

her.... <<

When Sheila was born my husband was affected differently than I was. He told

me that he just never expected be father a child with mental retardation. He

has a post doctorate in physics, is brother has a doctorate in meteorology, his

dad was a chemist, both of his younger brothers are college grads. On some

level he felt it couldn't happen to him--he was somehow protected because of the

academic strengths both of our families have. He made the adjustment and he

did it with more ease than I expected given his initial reaction, but a support

group couldn't (and didn't) help him with his struggle. Postpartum

depressions can be horrible to live through--and a baby doesn't necessarily have

to have

anything wrong with it to be killed by a mother in one. I saw it happen when

I was working in a hospital more than once. We can't possibly know what kind

of info/support/help this mom did or did not have. It is truly a sad thing, but

we may not have been able to reach her.

hug all your babies and say a prayer for this woman, nancy

August 7, 2003

What you say is so true, . Everyone has their own coping mechanisms and

we don't always know what our limits are until we are faced with things. All

you hear are stories of what mothers do to their children due to postpartum

depression. I cannot imagine what that kind of depression is like, although a

couple of my closest friends have claimed to have had it. At the risk of

sounded weird here, I just hope she didn't do it just because the baby had DS.

Jackie, Mom to 15ds, 12, and Bradley.

August 8, 2003

In a message dated 8/8/2003 6:15:40 AM US Mountain Standard Time,

drf218@... writes:

> I cannot imagine what that kind of depression is like

I SUFFERFROM PPD, I HAVE SINCE MY FIRST ONE & EVEY TIME WE THINK I CAN STOP

MY MEDS I GET PREGGO AGAIN & IT RELAPSES. PPD IS DIFFERENT FROM PPS{POST PARDOM

PSHYCOS}. THE PPS IS THE ONE WHERE MOMS HURT THEIR KIDS. I COULDN'T IMAGINE

THAT. EITHER WAY NOT MATTER WHAT HTE EXCUSE IT IS UNTHINKABLE TO HURT KIDS. I

AM ON MEDS & HEVEN TAKE THEM DURING PREGNANCY ETC & I FEEL FINE NOW. THE

PROBLEM I THINK IWS WHEN THE MOMS DON' SEEK TREATMENT. IT'S MORE COMMOMN THEN

PEOPLE THINK.

DeStefano

mommy to 5, ny 29 months & Isabella {newbie as of 5/20/03!!!!

August 8, 2003

EVERYONE ALWAYS WANTS THE EASY ANSWERS. WHY BOTHER TAKING THE TIME TO FIGURE

IT OUT. IT'S SO FRUSTRATING.

DeStefano

mommy to 5, ny 29 months & Isabella {newbie as of 5/20/03!!!!

August 8, 2003

On the local news last night, the reporter said " the mother did it because the

baby had Down Syndrome. " (Philly area where Villanova is). So sad.

Di

Re: Re: CNN article

What you say is so true, . Everyone has their own coping mechanisms and

we don't always know what our limits are until we are faced with things. All

you hear are stories of what mothers do to their children due to postpartum

depression. I cannot imagine what that kind of depression is like, although a

couple of my closest friends have claimed to have had it. At the risk of

sounded weird here, I just hope she didn't do it just because the baby had DS.

Jackie, Mom to 15ds, 12, and Bradley.

August 8, 2003

I agree people want the easy answer but i believe with the psychosis variety of

depression, it is no more understandable when they claim that they wanted the

children to be in heaven like that woman who drowned her 5 children, then saying

it was because the baby " suffered " from down syndrome..... in the local article

i read it did say sufferred which usually i take offense to but it seemed to be

quoting a police report about the explanation offered by the mom.... which if it

is what she said it was properly quoted.....

Actually even though Vickie has down syndrome the only thing she seems to suffer

with is not getting her own way.... but i think that is pretty much typical with

any 3 year old out there... special needs or not

Re: Re: CNN article

EVERYONE ALWAYS WANTS THE EASY ANSWERS. WHY BOTHER TAKING THE TIME TO FIGURE

IT OUT. IT'S SO FRUSTRATING.

DeStefano

mommy to 5, ny 29 months & Isabella {newbie as of 5/20/03!!!!

August 8, 2003

I find it hard to believe what the media puts out in cases like this. I think

they are looking for an answer because this type of thing is so bizarre. The

world does not understand and cannot even imagine if it was their child what

they would do, so ds is an easy blame.

JMHO

mom to Bridget 10

Re: Re: CNN article

What you say is so true, . Everyone has their own coping mechanisms

and

we don't always know what our limits are until we are faced with things.

All

you hear are stories of what mothers do to their children due to postpartum

depression. I cannot imagine what that kind of depression is like, although

a

couple of my closest friends have claimed to have had it. At the risk of

sounded weird here, I just hope she didn't do it just because the baby had

DS.

Jackie, Mom to 15ds, 12, and Bradley.

August 8, 2003

In a message dated 8/8/2003 12:06:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time,

annshelley@... writes:

> is not getting her own way....

oh how true!!! ny is 2 & wowhoo boy is he a fiesty one.

i don't like the term suffer either. it seems like we here that used alot

describing our kids. that woman who drowned her 5 kids, she needs help. i don't

care what goes on in your head that is just wrong. the other thing is people

around the depressed person need to open their mouths. if the person won't seek

help seek it for them. who knows when i'll ever be myself again, but my hubby

is along for the ride & helps me every step of the way. that andrea yates'

hubby knew she was sick, he knew of her depression. he cjose to not think it was

so bad & ignored it. she was medicated to i believe. she should not have been

left with those kids.

DeStefano

mommy to 5, ny 29 months & Isabella {newbie as of 5/20/03!!!!

August 9, 2003

I believe the news report also said the baby had medical problems (not that I'm

defending the woman). Who knows, maybe the baby had severe medical issues which

were terminal. Again, I'm not condoning what she did but who are we to judge.

Di

Re: Re: CNN article

I agree people want the easy answer but i believe with the psychosis variety

of depression, it is no more understandable when they claim that they wanted the

children to be in heaven like that woman who drowned her 5 children, then saying

it was because the baby " suffered " from down syndrome..... in the local article

i read it did say sufferred which usually i take offense to but it seemed to be

quoting a police report about the explanation offered by the mom.... which if it

is what she said it was properly quoted.....

Actually even though Vickie has down syndrome the only thing she seems to

suffer with is not getting her own way.... but i think that is pretty much

typical with any 3 year old out there... special needs or not

August 11, 2003

In a message dated 8/11/2003 8:34:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

dbonorato4@... writes:

> I believe the news report also said the baby had medical problems (not

> that I'm defending the woman). Who knows, maybe the baby had severe medical

> issues which were terminal. Again, I'm not condoning what she did but who are

we

> to judge.

> Di

>

You may wish to consider the source. When Baby Jane Doe was being

starved to death in the 80s, her disabilities were portrayed in an awful way.

Hmmm,

they said she was hopelessly and severely retarded, would be unable to do

anything. Turned out she had DS and a lot of what they said was misrepresented.

The medical problems this child had could have been feeding issues and that's

all.

Cheryl in VA

People with disabilities are here today to remind us that equal justice under

the law is not a privilege but a fundamental birthright in America.

Senator Ted Kennedy, during the Senate's passage

of ADA-July 13, 1990

August 11, 2003

Saying " who are we to judge " means that you do not believe that anyone has a

right to judge her. I believe that those of us who live with this day in and

day out and have been through MUCH worse can truly say that we wouldn't do what

she did and I hope the law gives her the stiffest penalty known. We live this

and we don't kill our kids. MHO

Elaine

Re: Re: CNN article

I agree people want the easy answer but i believe with the psychosis variety

of depression, it is no more understandable when they claim that they wanted the

children to be in heaven like that woman who drowned her 5 children, then saying

it was because the baby " suffered " from down syndrome..... in the local article

i read it did say sufferred which usually i take offense to but it seemed to be

quoting a police report about the explanation offered by the mom.... which if it

is what she said it was properly quoted.....

Actually even though Vickie has down syndrome the only thing she seems to

suffer with is not getting her own way.... but i think that is pretty much

typical with any 3 year old out there... special needs or not

August 11, 2003

Seems to me there is not much of a judgment call to state that her actions

were wrong. Period.

As for judging the mother herself, fortunately, we don't have to. The

information that has come out is not that complete or satisfactory and may

never be. Something that bothers me about the latest article is that the

" young graduate student " is actually 38 year old tenured professor--more

mature than the original reports implied. Something else that bothers me is

the information that the NG tube " had to be meticulously cleaned to prevent

infection. " Jess had an NG tube for several months before and after her

heart surgery and apart from rinsing it with each feeding and changing it

every so often (decidedly not a fun activity), I don't recall any meticulous

cleaning ritual being required. And I have to wonder why, if during a trip

to CA " Away from the support of her friends, Ener broke down, " her husband

and friend would conclude that sending her to MN alone with the baby would

be helpful. Family, especially family who have not been physically around

the situation, are not necessarily the best support for new parents anyway,

certainly not better than the friends and possibly medical professionals who

have proven supportive.

I have been reading the posts on this and the other list and it's clear that

this is a really painful topic for many parents. For me, that's first

because of the sheer savagery of the death. Cutting someone's throat,

especially an infant's, is a particularly brutal and dehumanizing method of

killing. Certainly not what comes to mind with " mercy killing. " Then on a

different level, there is a sense that if we all can do it (and some of us

have had to deal with medical stuff that's as bad or worse and also that our

children happen to have DS), she should have been able to do it too--without

resorting to killing her child at least. There's also a sense that she

broke a very big taboo in a parent community where parents protect their own

children and feel a protectiveness toward the children of others. Not only

did she fail to protect her baby--she actively and terminally harmed the

baby. Symbolically, she failed all of our children.

But the greatest fear and failing is that she made a statement that children

with DS are less valuable than children without DS, that their quality of

life is less, that they are somehow more disposable than other children. If

a jury seems to support that statement by anything less than the maximum

allowable sentence--regardless of the circumstances--then our children may

be automatically devalued as well and all the Singer utilitarian arguments

and misguided thinking of the past will be there to be refuted yet again. I

wonder if that's why so many of us are so angry with her.

To add to Cheryl's history lesson:

" Baby Doe " case, where an infant born April 9, 1982 in Bloomington with Down

syndrome and esophageal atresia was allowed to die by attending physicians

in accordance with parents wishes. The State of Indiana Supreme Court

upholds the parents' right to make this decision stating that a starvation

death was legal: Baby Boy Doe was placed in an isolation room where he died

without treatment or nourishment on April 16, 1982, seven days after his

birth, with willing couples to adopt on hand and an appeal to the United

States Supreme Court being pursued. President Reagan threatened to withdraw

federal funds from any hospital that ever did anything like that again.

Leads to a new application of §504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1983,

establishing the right of newborn children with Down syndrome to customary

medical care. [see: The Killing Will Not Stop.]

from " Down Syndrome Timeline, "

http://www.altonweb.com/cs/downsyndrome/index3.html

If you go to the above site and section, you find the active link to " The

Killing Will Not Stop, " by Will, 1982. The final paragraphs of that

article read:

" Will, 10, fourth-grader and Orioles fan (and the best Wiffle-ball

hitter in southern land), has Down's syndrome. He does not " suffer from "

(as newspapers are wont to say) Down's syndrome. He suffers from nothing,

except anxiety about the Orioles' lousy start.

He is doing nicely, thank you. But he is bound to have quite enough problems

dealing with society—receiving rights, let alone empathy. He can do without

people like Infant Doe's parents, and courts like Indiana's asserting by

their actions the principle that people like him are less than fully human.

On the evidence, Down's syndrome citizens have little to learn about being

human from the people responsible for the death of Infant Doe. "

Judi HL

Re: Re: CNN article

August 12, 2003

Sorry I pushed the button too soon there.

The Baby Doe case was horrible but that was just a case that got

publicity. It was a fairly common occurrence at that time. And you notice

Reagan

only " threatened " to withhold funding. I testified before a committee of

the Kansas legislature, a group of us were trying to get something passed to

prevent this but it was tabled. When I was teaching a class at KU med school, a

group of students and the doctor I was working with were discussing this. He

told us about a case he had where the parents wanted to let the baby die and

he said he was going to do whatever it took to prevent it. I knew the parents

and knew they resented him for something but they never said what. They had 2

pediatricians in the family who were urging they let him die too, which makes

you think. He did have the surgery and did fine. Anyway these med students

told us that they had seen this happen at KU too.. Which kind of floored the

doctor in our group was the doctor there was the one he had in mind to appeal

to in his case.

The trouble is,like you say, it diminishes all of our kids no matter

how well they do because those kind of cases get more publicity, and sympathy.

When they get rare news coverage about some accomplishment it's considered

rare, and look what THIS person did, not that most of them could do it.

GRRRRRR.

A minister that I know has an adult daughter with DS, who does very

well. He says sometimes someone asks him if he prays for her to be cured.

He always says " From what? " I'm with him. Jessie

August 13, 2003

I agree wholeheartedly with Judy. I also did a paper on the past treatment

of persons with Down syndrome and how we were not much more evolved with

regard to that than we were in the middle ages when it was considered

acceptable to smother the " changlings " in their beds. Baby Doe was the case

I used to illustrate my point. If this woman gets away with this ALL our

kids lose.

Elaine

Judi wrote: