Buhner versus Zhang protocol

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Has anyone tried both protocols to be able to compare them? I'd be

very interested to know. ANy differences between andrographis and HH.

I'm in the UK and originally had a diagnosis of ME/CFS (since early

90s)then found out I had borreliosis - not sure if its the Lyme

strain. I started with Samento as suggested by my LLMD which has

helped to a certain extent. I happen to have a very good chinese doc

(qualified in both TCM and Western medicine from the top TCM hospital

in China) on my doorstep and in the past when I took herbs for a few

weeks at a time when I got flu bugs etc they used to help quite a bit

but symptoms came back when I stopped (little did we know then what

the problem was).

So about 18 months ago I started a chinese herbal protocol based on

the Zhang protocol and tailored to me. Dr Zhang uses HH, garlic and

supporting herbs to help circulation etc. So I am on HH and

supporting herbs (some different to Dr Zs) and continued with

Samento. I needed chinese kidney tonic herbs to help brain during

herxes - Pueraria which Dr Z suggests for brain did not do so much.

I don't take Dr Z's extracts. Instead I boil up dried herbs and drink

it as a tea. So its difficult to know whether the dosage of HH I am

on. I have a 2 day break every fortnight.

I've just been looking at the herbs in the Zhang and Buhner protocols

and what I am actually on. Interestingly the supporting herbs I am

on include Smilax and astragalus - these are also 2 of Buhners

herbs. Also Dr Z has an alternative to garlic which is based on

Smilax. Another interesting discovery I made is that HH is in the

same group of chinese herbs as andrographis and has a similar action

(in chinese terms anyway).

So I am actually doing quite a few things similar to the Buhner

protocol. I asked my doc the other day if I could add in

Andrographis and Japanese knotweed to my mix at some point. She

didn't really see the need to start andrographis as it has a similar

action (chinese action anyway) to HH, but said I could try it

sometime if I wanted. I'm going to increase the dose of HH first.

She didn't think I'd be able to tolerate Japanese Knotweed though.

So I'd be very interested to know how people compare andrographis and

HH if they have tried both.

Another interesting point. Astragalus is my docs favourite herb for

treating ME/CFS. Its my favourite herb too when the symptoms are

right to take it - very good for low blood volume. But then I

probably don't have TH1 dominant symptoms. One thing that puzzles me

is that Buhner says that astragalus is not to be used in chronic

Lyme, yet my doc uses it for ME/CFS and many with ME/CFS are finding

they have borreliosis. My doc reckons its probably a modulator of

TH1 rather than a stimulant. I keep meaning to email Buhner and ask

him about this.

Anyway thats enough for now. My brain is going.

Cheers,

Carol

[Guest guest]

Hi Carol,

I've not done Zhang's complete protocol though I did adopt his allicin

and artemisia into my protocol. I felt that with Buhner's herbs and my

other stuff (Salt/C, Rifing) that I didn't need to do both protocol

full-on. As you mentioned HH being similar to andrographis, my gut

feeling would be not to do andrographis, at least not until you know

how your body reacts on HH.

As I read Zhang's and Buhner's books, I realized there was some

overlap between the two protocols, as you mention. So it may not be

necessary to do the herbs that have a similar function on both

protocol (another example that comes to mind is Zhang's Circulation P.

It sounds as though it works similarly to Buhner's japanese knotweed.)

Dr. Zhang himself told me that there is some overlap, though he seemed

to also think it's probably OK to combine his protocol with Buhner's

(though i didn't give him details as to what I have been taking on

Buhner's).

I chose Zhang's artemisia over artemisinin as used on Buhner's

protocol b/c it's supposed to have a stronger action in the body.

As I mentioned, I have spoken with Dr. Zhang on the phone and, like

Buhner, he seems like a kind, caring, and intelligent man. Imagine,

how many docs will talk directly with a person who isn't even a

patient of theirs?

Buhner is likewise humble in this manner so if I were you, I'd go

ahead and email him with your questions or post them on

Planetthrive.com. He'll get back to you with some answers, though it

may take a few weeks. (but not always)

Hope this helps, Take care, Connie

>

> Hi,

>

> Has anyone tried both protocols to be able to compare them? I'd be

> very interested to know. ANy differences between andrographis and HH.

>

> I'm in the UK and originally had a diagnosis of ME/CFS (since early

> 90s)then found out I had borreliosis - not sure if its the Lyme

> strain. I started with Samento as suggested by my LLMD which has

> helped to a certain extent. I happen to have a very good chinese doc

> (qualified in both TCM and Western medicine from the top TCM hospital

> in China) on my doorstep and in the past when I took herbs for a few

> weeks at a time when I got flu bugs etc they used to help quite a bit

> but symptoms came back when I stopped (little did we know then what

> the problem was).

>

> So about 18 months ago I started a chinese herbal protocol based on

> the Zhang protocol and tailored to me. Dr Zhang uses HH, garlic and

> supporting herbs to help circulation etc. So I am on HH and

> supporting herbs (some different to Dr Zs) and continued with

> Samento. I needed chinese kidney tonic herbs to help brain during

> herxes - Pueraria which Dr Z suggests for brain did not do so much.

> I don't take Dr Z's extracts. Instead I boil up dried herbs and drink

> it as a tea. So its difficult to know whether the dosage of HH I am

> on. I have a 2 day break every fortnight.

>

> I've just been looking at the herbs in the Zhang and Buhner protocols

> and what I am actually on. Interestingly the supporting herbs I am

> on include Smilax and astragalus - these are also 2 of Buhners

> herbs. Also Dr Z has an alternative to garlic which is based on

> Smilax. Another interesting discovery I made is that HH is in the

> same group of chinese herbs as andrographis and has a similar action

> (in chinese terms anyway).

>

> So I am actually doing quite a few things similar to the Buhner

> protocol. I asked my doc the other day if I could add in

> Andrographis and Japanese knotweed to my mix at some point. She

> didn't really see the need to start andrographis as it has a similar

> action (chinese action anyway) to HH, but said I could try it

> sometime if I wanted. I'm going to increase the dose of HH first.

> She didn't think I'd be able to tolerate Japanese Knotweed though.

> So I'd be very interested to know how people compare andrographis and

> HH if they have tried both.

>

> Another interesting point. Astragalus is my docs favourite herb for

> treating ME/CFS. Its my favourite herb too when the symptoms are

> right to take it - very good for low blood volume. But then I

> probably don't have TH1 dominant symptoms. One thing that puzzles me

> is that Buhner says that astragalus is not to be used in chronic

> Lyme, yet my doc uses it for ME/CFS and many with ME/CFS are finding

> they have borreliosis. My doc reckons its probably a modulator of

> TH1 rather than a stimulant. I keep meaning to email Buhner and ask

> him about this.

>

> Anyway thats enough for now. My brain is going.

>

> Cheers,

> Carol

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Connie,

Thanks. Its interesting you taking bits from both too. Regarding

HH - I've been on it a while, but I had to increase very slowly. My

doc says it is safe for me to increase the dose further.

I'm not on circulation P at all, but I am some different herbs that

do a similar thing. I have a problem with one or two the herbs in

Circulation P so can't have them. Kidney channel tonic herbs have

been vital for me and htey don't seem to be mentioned in either

protocol.

Cheers,

Carol

>

> Hi Carol,

>

> I've not done Zhang's complete protocol though I did adopt his

allicin

> and artemisia into my protocol. I felt that with Buhner's herbs and

my

> other stuff (Salt/C, Rifing) that I didn't need to do both protocol

> full-on. As you mentioned HH being similar to andrographis, my gut

> feeling would be not to do andrographis, at least not until you know

> how your body reacts on HH.

> As I read Zhang's and Buhner's books, I realized there was some

> overlap between the two protocols, as you mention. So it may not be

> necessary to do the herbs that have a similar function on both

> protocol (another example that comes to mind is Zhang's Circulation

P.

> It sounds as though it works similarly to Buhner's japanese

knotweed.)

> Dr. Zhang himself told me that there is some overlap, though he

seemed

> to also think it's probably OK to combine his protocol with Buhner's

> (though i didn't give him details as to what I have been taking on

> Buhner's).

> I chose Zhang's artemisia over artemisinin as used on Buhner's

> protocol b/c it's supposed to have a stronger action in the body.

> As I mentioned, I have spoken with Dr. Zhang on the phone and, like

> Buhner, he seems like a kind, caring, and intelligent man. Imagine,

> how many docs will talk directly with a person who isn't even a

> patient of theirs?

> Buhner is likewise humble in this manner so if I were you, I'd go

> ahead and email him with your questions or post them on

> Planetthrive.com. He'll get back to you with some answers, though it

> may take a few weeks. (but not always)

> Hope this helps, Take care, Connie

>