Re: Weight loss and symptom flares

[Guest guest]

Hi Jim,

I did recall you warning people previously about mixing protocols.

I gave essential oils serious consideration before starting them, including

giving info on what cp herbals I take to the person who is guiding me on the

usage of the oils (not that she would know as much as Buhner about the herbals)

and waited until I felt the time was right to add them.

If there is an incompatibility issue, perhaps I need to adjust the amount of

herbals and/or oils I use. Or stop the oils for now.

Thanks for bringing this up again. For now I intend to proceed with extra

caution. Maybe I will ask Buhner this question, and hope he has time for

another question and some insight regarding this.

And thanks for the tip on Devils' Claw. I see in Healing Lyme it is

recommended for Lyme arthritis (is the the same thing as rheumatoid arthritis?).

I

wonder how it works in the body and, like in my previous post about Stephania,

is

this something that's safer to take if one has an autoimmune issue like

rheumatoid arthritis? (which I don't have - I seem to have another seasonal bug,

and

my immune system seems to be on the low side, as my CD57 test indicated).

Ann

In a message dated 1/10/07 1:19:09 PM, jbbigrod@... writes:

> Ann:

> You " might " re-think on taking those oils. THey COULD be interacting with

> Buhner's herbs. Many herbs and supplements are NOT compatible. I know, I

> learned the hard way. Buhner is a Master Herbalist. He has studied what IS and

what

> is NOT compatible for many, many years. It wasn't magic that he came up with

> his protocol. He spent countless hours, weeks and months educating himself

> to what will work and what won't. AND what is compatible and what isn't.

>

> I would be real careful adding ANYTHING to his protocols. He has plenty

> different things you can try, IF you feel you aren't getting enough results

with

> his core protocol. Have you tried Devil's Claw? THAT is MY magic herb. IF

> there IS such a thing.

>

> I added things in the past too, but have quit taking most of them. Maybe

> once I get to a point where I can go off Buhner's Protocol, I can try some of

> the others again. Until then, I a staying put.

>

> Jim

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Connie!

That's a comforting thought, about the weight loss. I'd rather be losing

weight and having symptoms due to a herx rather than a flare (though the weight

loss may just be from lesser appetite due to the seasonal bugs).

Since Lyme made me gain weight, maybe getting rid of Lyme makes the " Lyme

weight " leave, too. That would make sense, I think.

Like all of us I'm sure, I wish this were an easier and faster healing

process. This week I have been reminded yet again that I get impatient at times,

and

that cultivating patience with myself and my healing process can only affect

me and others in a more positive way.

Thanks for your suggestions on supplements, etc. I do have Epsom salts here,

and a product containing deglycerizinated licorice (which does not lower blood

pressure as regular licorice can). I'll ask my ND about the adrenal support

and detox supps, etc., as I see her in a few days and she probably has at

least some of them in stock.

I remembered this morning that one of my docs said I may need to lower my

thyroid meds when my body gets stressed due to herxes or flares (not sure if the

siberian ginseng would do the same as the thyroid meds and make me too hyper,

but will check my notes on that). I do take digestive enzymes, thanks! Btw,

I've been told these can also help some with joint inflammation.

Thanks for your support!

Blessings,

Ann

In a message dated 1/10/07 1:48:00 PM, conniekillbug@... writes:

> Hi Ann,

>

> I am sorry you are feeling so yucky!

> I wish I knew what to tell you about the weight loss, but I will tell you

> that every time I enter into a severe herx, I seem to lose weight.

> In November I dropped 10 pounds. With me, I think it is an essential oil of

> artemisia that does it--and not because it isn't " good " for me, but because

> it causes a lot of herxing, which wears on my adrenals, which screws up my

> digestion, thyroid, and overall metabolism.

> Back off a bit on your protocol, perhaps, make sure you are supporting your

> adrenals with siberian ginseng, licorice or another product, do enough detox

> (coffee enemas, chlorella, french green clay, epsom salt baths, etc), and

> consider enzymes and HCl with your food to aid in digestion if you aren't

> already taking these things.

>

> I really hope you feel better soon

> I know it can be really scary.

> Hang in there!

> Take care, Connie

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/10/07 3:20:29 PM, hardynaka@... writes:

> I only added the oils when I felt Buhner's CP was not working for me

> so well as before, when I felt my improvement was stuck for weeks/

> months(like knee pain, I was painless while on CP but when I stopped

> herbs, the pain re-started).

>

Selma, that's a really good point!

I *was* feeling like my improvement had stalled before I started the

essential oils. Maybe I just need to adjust thngs and take it a little easier.

And I appreciate your other thoughts, including " cleansing " oils verses

" killer " oils.

I did email Buhner about possible incompatibilities between the cp

herbs and essential oils. if I get a helpful response back, I'll let you know.

I think it's wonderful how you have adjusted your own protocols and used your

intuition and creativity to heal.

Your posts continue to be inspiring to me!

Ann

[Guest guest]

Ann:

You " might " re-think on taking those oils. THey COULD be interacting with

Buhner's herbs. Many herbs and supplements are NOT compatible. I know, I

learned the hard way. Buhner is a Master Herbalist. He has studied what IS and

what is NOT compatible for many, many years. It wasn't magic that he came up

with his protocol. He spent countless hours, weeks and months educating himself

to what will work and what won't. AND what is compatible and what isn't.

I would be real careful adding ANYTHING to his protocols. He has plenty

different things you can try, IF you feel you aren't getting enough results with

his core protocol. Have you tried Devil's Claw? THAT is MY magic herb. IF

there IS such a thing.

I added things in the past too, but have quit taking most of them. Maybe once

I get to a point where I can go off Buhner's Protocol, I can try some of the

others again. Until then, I a staying put.

Jim

###

Grpinfo@... wrote:

Hi,

*Has anyone experienced symptom flares after weight loss?*

I've lost about 15 pounds in a little over 2 weeks, due to " non-Lyme " illness

(recent seasonal bugs), and am now down to a weight I haven't been at in

years (I've been one of those supposed 80% who gain weight with Lyme). Even

though

I've been eating less and losing weight, I'm still eating quality food and

staying hydrated.

I wonder if there are spirochetes and associated toxins in fat cells being

released due to the weight loss, causing my recent symptom flares.

I seem to have gone into a big herx or flare in the past few days, including

being tired and shaky and then having a frightening emotional meltdown. I'm

still shaky and just feel kind of weird all over (like my body might collapse,

etc.).

Other things which could be contributing include adjusting Andrographis and

Cat's Claw back up after recent cardiac symptoms/skipped heartbeats calmed down

(I've stayed on the same dose of resveratrol and sarsparilla all along).

Maybe having decreased andro and cat's caused a flare, or adjusting them back up

is causing herxing. I also recently started working with essential oils for

immunity and healing (topical and inhaled). They have antibacterial properties

and they may be a lot more potent than I thought. I also have another thing

happening which may be a bigger life stress than I realized. It's always easier

to

have perspective on these things after the fact.

So, as usual, there could be many contributing factors, and there is the also

the " flare vs herx " question, which leaves me wondering whether to continue

adjusting andro and cat's.

Mainly I'm wondering if the somewhat rapid weight loss could be the tipping

factor here.

Any sharing of experience with this would be appreciated.

Ann

[Guest guest]

Hi Ann,

I am sorry you are feeling so yucky!

I wish I knew what to tell you about the weight loss, but I will tell you

that every time I enter into a severe herx, I seem to lose weight.

In November I dropped 10 pounds. With me, I think it is an essential oil of

artemisia that does it--and not because it isn't " good " for me, but because it

causes a lot of herxing, which wears on my adrenals, which screws up my

digestion, thyroid, and overall metabolism.

Back off a bit on your protocol, perhaps, make sure you are supporting your

adrenals with siberian ginseng, licorice or another product, do enough detox

(coffee enemas, chlorella, french green clay, epsom salt baths, etc), and

consider enzymes and HCl with your food to aid in digestion if you aren't

already taking these things.

I really hope you feel better soon

I know it can be really scary.

Hang in there!

Take care, Connie

" R. Bayliss " <jbbigrod@...> wrote:

Ann:

You " might " re-think on taking those oils. THey COULD be interacting with

Buhner's herbs. Many herbs and supplements are NOT compatible. I know, I

learned the hard way. Buhner is a Master Herbalist. He has studied what IS and

what is NOT compatible for many, many years. It wasn't magic that he came up

with his protocol. He spent countless hours, weeks and months educating himself

to what will work and what won't. AND what is compatible and what isn't.

I would be real careful adding ANYTHING to his protocols. He has plenty

different things you can try, IF you feel you aren't getting enough results

with his core protocol. Have you tried Devil's Claw? THAT is MY magic herb. IF

there IS such a thing.

I added things in the past too, but have quit taking most of them. Maybe once

I get to a point where I can go off Buhner's Protocol, I can try some of the

others again. Until then, I a staying put.

Jim

###

Grpinfo@... wrote:

Hi,

*Has anyone experienced symptom flares after weight loss?*

I've lost about 15 pounds in a little over 2 weeks, due to " non-Lyme " illness

(recent seasonal bugs), and am now down to a weight I haven't been at in

years (I've been one of those supposed 80% who gain weight with Lyme). Even

though

I've been eating less and losing weight, I'm still eating quality food and

staying hydrated.

I wonder if there are spirochetes and associated toxins in fat cells being

released due to the weight loss, causing my recent symptom flares.

I seem to have gone into a big herx or flare in the past few days, including

being tired and shaky and then having a frightening emotional meltdown. I'm

still shaky and just feel kind of weird all over (like my body might collapse,

etc.).

Other things which could be contributing include adjusting Andrographis and

Cat's Claw back up after recent cardiac symptoms/skipped heartbeats calmed

down

(I've stayed on the same dose of resveratrol and sarsparilla all along).

Maybe having decreased andro and cat's caused a flare, or adjusting them back

up

is causing herxing. I also recently started working with essential oils for

immunity and healing (topical and inhaled). They have antibacterial properties

and they may be a lot more potent than I thought. I also have another thing

happening which may be a bigger life stress than I realized. It's always

easier to

have perspective on these things after the fact.

So, as usual, there could be many contributing factors, and there is the also

the " flare vs herx " question, which leaves me wondering whether to continue

adjusting andro and cat's.

Mainly I'm wondering if the somewhat rapid weight loss could be the tipping

factor here.

Any sharing of experience with this would be appreciated.

Ann

[Guest guest]

Hi Ann, I didn't try the same herbs Jim did, but tried others AND

essential oils.

I'm still on essential oils, just rubbing. I know that they can cause

some herx because I clearly felt exhausted 30 minutes after rubbing

these (I didn't use them together with herbs, but in between herb

intake, so that I could control my reaction to the oils). After,

exhaustion lifted and I felt more energetic than before. That went on

for a few days, until the effect from oils diminished.

I rubbed them on knees, ankles, wrists, vertebral column, face and

then on all main lymphatic nodles (sp?). I felt that they either

killed some stuff that herbs dont' usually kill (because they maybe

don't reach the same cells/ parts of the body).

On the liver, the effect of oils is very clear. I don't know if it

kills something on the liver, but I do feel clear relief after

rubbing certain oils on it, I feel the bile moving. But I can't say

if it helps pancreas or kidneys, even though I rub them there too.

I only added the oils when I felt Buhner's CP was not working for me

so well as before, when I felt my improvement was stuck for weeks/

months(like knee pain, I was painless while on CP but when I stopped

herbs, the pain re-started).

So I knew I had borrelia there but I didn't herx there anymore for

months, nor improved. I haven't stopped CP's herbs ever since, but I

feel my knee is better (can't explain it in English, it's like I had

got oil on a rusty joint!). But I can't say it's DUE to these oils

for sure.

I love the smell of lemon + eucalyptus + thyme + rose geranium +

patchouli, the mix I did for me, so I continue using it. I use the

oils now less for killing, more for cleansing. I use the mix at least

once a day, before bedtime, specially on my liver. Or when I feel

some stress on liver or kidneys.

But if core protocol herbs were working for me, I would only use the

cleansers (oils), not killer oils and wait perhaps to introduce

killers when CP starts to loose effect... Just my own way of doing

things... Too much killing is bad, no body on earth can stand massive

killings!

On the head, the mix clearly causes something. I still had some brain

fatigue or brain fog, and rubbing the oils DID something there, like

a real feeling of awakening, clearness. I rubbed on top, back (upper

neck) and around the eyes. Again, I can't say if this is because of

the cleansing oils or because of killing oils (or both?).

My naturopath doesn't find borrelia in my knees either, just in my

brain (through ART). If she's right, the oils could have been

responsible for helping me there.

Selma

>

> Hi Jim,

>

> I did recall you warning people previously about mixing protocols.

>

> I gave essential oils serious consideration before starting them,

including

> giving info on what cp herbals I take to the person who is guiding

me on the

> usage of the oils (not that she would know as much as Buhner about

the herbals)

> and waited until I felt the time was right to add them.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Ann; yes, I got into trouble by mixing last summer. It was real scarey. I

am okay now, but was wondering IF I was going to make it for awhile. I mean

REALLY scarey.

I don't think I would adjust the herbals IF they were working okay for you

before you started the oils. I would lean more to reducing or quitting the

oils, until you find out IF they are compatible or not. I would ask

about them. If he doesn't recommend them in his book, you have to ask yourself

WHY?

He recommends things that are compatible with the other stuff he recommends.

I have two kinds of Arthritis. The Devils Claw helped tremendously with the

Lyme Arthritis. The regular Arthritis, I have had for many, many years, even

before I got Lyme D.. It seemed to go away, when the Lyme Arthritis took over.

Or maybe the Lyme Arthritis was just so much more painful I couldn't feel the

regular stuff. Now I feel the regular stuff, especially in my right knee. But

it is to be expected. I am 65 and many on my mothers side of the family were in

wheelchairs by this age. My mother also ended up in a wheel chair for many

years.

I also take Nettle Leaf for arthritis. I take anything I can from his book

for Arthritis and Vision problems and Asthma.

Jim.

###

Grpinfo@... wrote:

Hi Jim,

I did recall you warning people previously about mixing protocols.

I gave essential oils serious consideration before starting them, including

giving info on what cp herbals I take to the person who is guiding me on the

usage of the oils (not that she would know as much as Buhner about the herbals)

and waited until I felt the time was right to add them.

If there is an incompatibility issue, perhaps I need to adjust the amount of

herbals and/or oils I use. Or stop the oils for now.

Thanks for bringing this up again. For now I intend to proceed with extra

caution. Maybe I will ask Buhner this question, and hope he has time for

another question and some insight regarding this.

And thanks for the tip on Devils' Claw. I see in Healing Lyme it is

recommended for Lyme arthritis (is the the same thing as rheumatoid arthritis?).

I

wonder how it works in the body and, like in my previous post about Stephania,

is

this something that's safer to take if one has an autoimmune issue like

rheumatoid arthritis? (which I don't have - I seem to have another seasonal bug,

and

my immune system seems to be on the low side, as my CD57 test indicated).

Ann

In a message dated 1/10/07 1:19:09 PM, jbbigrod@... writes:

> Ann:

> You " might " re-think on taking those oils. THey COULD be interacting with

> Buhner's herbs. Many herbs and supplements are NOT compatible. I know, I

> learned the hard way. Buhner is a Master Herbalist. He has studied what IS and

what

> is NOT compatible for many, many years. It wasn't magic that he came up with

> his protocol. He spent countless hours, weeks and months educating himself

> to what will work and what won't. AND what is compatible and what isn't.

>

> I would be real careful adding ANYTHING to his protocols. He has plenty

> different things you can try, IF you feel you aren't getting enough results

with

> his core protocol. Have you tried Devil's Claw? THAT is MY magic herb. IF

> there IS such a thing.

>

> I added things in the past too, but have quit taking most of them. Maybe

> once I get to a point where I can go off Buhner's Protocol, I can try some of

> the others again. Until then, I a staying put.

>

> Jim

>

[Guest guest]

Not an expert in this at all, but just a thought...

I always worry about weight loss and metal toxicity.

Aren't heavy metals supposed to hang out in our

fat? Maybe they release with weight loss?

Amy

[Guest guest]

Buhner says the spirochetes love fat and sugar; a friend recently

told me that worse she ever felt with her Lyme was when she lost a lot

of weight: we assumed this meant the spirochetes were angry at having

to go hungry.

I often think about my body as being in a balanced state with the

spirochetes: if I don't attack them too harshly, they don't attack me

too harshly. Just putting a new spin on the idea of having a Herx., I

guess.

Edith