Re: Contagious within families???

[Guest guest]

Lyme disease is supposedly transmitted through direct human contact or by a

vector (in this case ticks). What this means is that blood or excretia has

to come directly into contact with the other person's blood stream. The only

aero-solized bacteria that i know of is Baccilus Anthracus(Anthrax) an that

is not communicable once the person is infected except contact with blood.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-02-10 22:10:06 EST, you write:

<< Hello,

I noticed some people on the list have multiple infected persons within

their immediate family. I am curious as to their thoughts regarding

communicability of Lyme's disease by non-tick born means. Does anyone have

any info, links or personal statements regarding this? I have never heard

anything one way or the other. Could Lyme's be passed through saliva or

genital contact? Or are the chances just very low for this (ie-as in HIV and

saliva)?

Thanks

>>

Hi,

Here is a link:

<A

HREF= " http://igm-02.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/IGM_robot.pl?search=Subject=chigger+OR

+Subject=chiggers+OR+Subject=flea+OR+Subject=fleas+OR+Subject=flea+OR+Subject=

fleas+OR+Subject=louse+NOT+relapsing+fever+OR+Subject=lice+NOT+relapsing+fever

+OR+Subject=mite+OR+Subject=mites+OR+Subject=mosquito+OR+Subject=mosquitoes+OR

+Subject=mosquitos+OR+Subject=spider+OR+Subject=spiders+AND+Subject=lyme+OR+Su

bject=burgdorferi+OR+Subject=Erythema+Chronicum+Migrans+OR+Subject=borreli*+ix

odes+OR+Subject=Erythema+Migrans+NOT+glossitis+OR+Subject=garinii+OR+Subject=a

fzelii & datafile=MEDLINE " >LYME - TRANSMISSION - MOSQUITOES, ETC.</A>

I am not a doc or other healthcare professional, but have been told by vets

that if you have 1 dog infected with " tick " diseases & 1 not & you put them

together for a weekend - at the end, both will be infected - from licking

each other.

As in the case of HIV - have read report by Dr. Stanley Monteith (CA) stating

that in HIV / AIDS patients, there are 10,000 times more CONTAGIOUS organisms

in saliva than there are in patients' blood. (Don't know if this doc has a

website or not.)

This same doctor claims that HIV is spread through mosquito bites & that the

govt. has known this for 17 years. My reaction was - DUH... It's always

been my " gut " feeling that any disease that is spread by " body fluids " is

transmitted by any insect that hops from person to person biting them. (I am

not a " scientific " person who needs to have lab proof of this - again it's a

" gut " feeling & what I consider common sense. No offense intended to

" med/science " folks.)

With babesia being a protazoa, as is malaria - which is known to be spread by

mosquitoes - it seems obvious (but again, just a theory) to me that there is

no question about it.

Furthermore, have been told by med people that flies, fleas & ticks transmit

all of these diseases, so why not spiders, chiggers, etc?

WIth lyme - regarding intimate contact - I've read that syphillus is also a

spirochetal organism - why not?

One other interesting note on HIV - I've read doc's (MD) report that states

that lab tests have proven that HIV is NOT killed by chlorine. Makes one

think about the water supply... (This report was backed up by several

independent MD studies - of course, none conducted in the good 'ol US where

" nothing exists. " )

At any rate, these things make sense to me (especially about transmission via

saliva, etc.) & if I'm wrong - ok - but at least I've erred on the side of

caution.

Hope this is helpful.

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

One further thought on this...

When daughter first became infected, doc who ordered test ( & went bezerk when

it was positive - DENYING having ordered test...) insisted it must be false

positive antibody test.

Sooo... Yep - it was " research time. " Talked to pathologist at hospital &

was told that the only possible cause for " false positive " would be other

spirochetal organisms such as syphillus, leptospirosis & certain kinds of gum

disease.

As this doc could not answer ?s about lepto to my satisfaction, I called CDC

in Ft. & had a nice chat with a lady doc there. She told me that

lepto (spirochete) is usually transmitted by animal urine & direct skin

contact with " fresh " water - lakes, rivers, etc. As daughter had had " fresh "

water direct skin contact (trying to save an injured turtle), I questioned

further as to whether one would ahve to have open cuts / sores, etc. for

organism to pass through. Her answer was an emphatic " No " - these organisms

go right through health skin.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-02-11 06:27:32 EST, you write:

<< I'm pretty sure there was a recent rat study w/the same results. Don't

think I saved it, but think it was posted to sci.med.diseases.lyme.

Sue

>>

Dear Sue & All,

Seems also that I read a few months back that some lab or research facility

is trying to develop a saliva test. Have been spinning my wheels here -

trying to remember where I read it. No luck yet in finding it.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/10/00 10:10:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Fchickens@... writes:

<< Hello,

I noticed some people on the list have multiple infected persons within

their immediate family. I am curious as to their thoughts regarding

communicability of Lyme's disease by non-tick born means. >>

my family of 5 all test positive. I have over a half acre of property in an

area becoming increasing populated driving deer to seek solace in my

yard....Cat and dog go outside and have brought ticks in uninvited.

House we lived in when kids were younger was so bad we called it, " tick

city " ....

Only husband and I share personal body fluids...

My kids are all pretty active and we share the same outdoor spaces wherever

we go....I just think it is a case of similar enviroment. Bernadette

[Guest guest]

>I am not a doc or other healthcare professional, but have been told by vets

>that if you have 1 dog infected with " tick " diseases & 1 not & you put them

>together for a weekend - at the end, both will be infected - from licking

>each other.

I'm pretty sure there was a recent rat study w/the same results. Don't

think I saved it, but think it was posted to sci.med.diseases.lyme.

Sue

[Guest guest]

Marta

Do you know who the researcher is or was? This comment I would like to add

to my lyme presentations and I always try to use only Facts as I know we all

do. Sometimes I think we may say something and have the message turned

around in my lyme brain head at times. I'm sure you understand what I'm

trying to say. Thanks for all your help.

Bev (MI)

[Guest guest]

Hi,

My doctor believes that it can be sexually transmitted as in the case of

syphilis, also a spirochete disease. He believes that the spirochetes hang

in the bladder, thus allowing transmission during sexual contact. I have

heard of a researcher who got Lyme disease from mouse urine that splashed in

his eye.

I am not so sure of the saliva. Of course no studies have ever been done on

this possibility of sexual transmission, which is a real shame. If this

could be proven, it would rank LD right up there with AIDS.

Marta

> From: Fchickens@...

>

> Hello,

> I noticed some people on the list have multiple infected persons

within

> their immediate family. I am curious as to their thoughts regarding

> communicability of Lyme's disease by non-tick born means. Does anyone have

> any info, links or personal statements regarding this? I have never heard

> anything one way or the other. Could Lyme's be passed through saliva or

> genital contact? Or are the chances just very low for this (ie-as in HIV

and

> saliva)?

>

> Thanks

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-02-11 16:42:39 EST, you write:

<< Bev,

I am pretty sure it was Willy Burgdorfer himself, but I will write to

Forschner to see if this is true, I would hate to be wrong about that

myself, that's why I didn't name him specifically in my prior posting.

Marta

> From: B56G@...

>

> Marta

> >>

Dear Marta & All,

I could well be wrong here (LOL!) - but it seems to me that someone told me

Willie Bergdorfer came over from Germany after the war & that he is quoted in

a book (??? - darn - can't remember which one, but will find it if of

interest to anyone) as saying that he recognized the organism (Bb) because he

himself had been involved in germ warfare research with Bb in Germany.

Anyone?

[Guest guest]

lyme disease is now being looked at to see if it truly can be passed mainly

sexually....it is known that it can be passed in utero from mother to child(

such as happened with karen forchner).....so it is possible to be

passed....saliva....i know of no studies on.....any one?....also i know that

a lymie is not able to donate blood(per the red cross)......so something must

be going on.....as far a families......could be location life

style....ect.....i was btten at work.my daughter....probaly at our summer

place in the poconos......not sure....never saw the tick...Reid

[Guest guest]

Bev,

I am pretty sure it was Willy Burgdorfer himself, but I will write to

Forschner to see if this is true, I would hate to be wrong about that

myself, that's why I didn't name him specifically in my prior posting.

Marta

> From: B56G@...

>

> Marta

>

> Do you know who the researcher is or was? This comment I would like to

add

> to my lyme presentations and I always try to use only Facts as I know we

all

> do. Sometimes I think we may say something and have the message turned

> around in my lyme brain head at times. I'm sure you understand what I'm

> trying to say. Thanks for all your help.

>

> Bev (MI)

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Still wracking my brain on this one - I think I may have remembered who told

me this, but unfortunately, this friend is not on-line. Will probably

converse with in another week or so.

Will definately ask for resource that we can check.

Wouldn't surprise me, though. There were some very strange things going on

in Germany at that time & many of their top research scientists did come over

here after the war...

Bear with me - I'll do my best to find out if there is, in fact, a valid

resource on this one...

In a message dated 00-02-11 21:44:29 EST, you write:

<< I am pretty sure it was Willy Burgdorfer himself

Chris:

>I could well be wrong here (LOL!) - but it seems to me that someone told me

>Willie Bergdorfer came over from Germany after the war & that he is quoted

in

>a book (??? - darn - can't remember which one, but will find it if of

>interest to anyone) as saying that he recognized the organism (Bb) because

he

>himself had been involved in germ warfare research with Bb in Germany.

Hmmm - only stories I'd ever heard (have seen no quotes) were Burgdorfer

saying he'd contracted lyme from infected rabbit urine while in the

mountains...

Sue

>>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-02-11 20:02:43 EST, you write:

<< could be location life

style....ect.....i was btten at work.my daughter....probaly at our summer

place in the poconos......not sure....never saw the tick...Reid

>>

Dear Reid & All,

Thanks for sharing thoughts on this one.

Could be the location / lifestyle, but for instance - my daughter is ALWAYS

outside - my idea of outside is to walk about 10 feet to get in the car (if

it's not in the attatched garage) & leave or vice-versa.

We never saw any ticks either - probably wasn't ticks, but mosquitoes...

[Guest guest]

Dear Sue,

Thank you so much for posting this!

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Please - forgive my probable stupidity here...

Is there any reason that those who do culture mediums or other tests could

not do these tests on saliva? (Other than fearing for their lives if they

told the truth about what they found - if anything.)

[Guest guest]

Am J Trop Med Hyg Volume 35 Issue 2

Experimental inoculation of Peromyscus spp. with Borrelia burgdorferi:

evidence of contact transmission.

Burgess EC, Amundson TE, JP, Kaslow RA, Edelman R

Am J Trop Med Hyg 1986 Mar 35:2 355-9

Abstract

In order to determine if Peromyscus spp. could become infected with the Lyme

disease spirochete (Borrelia burgdorferi) by direct inoculation and to

determine the duration of spirochetemia, 4 P. leucopus and 5 P. maniculatus

were inoculated by the intramuscular, intraperitoneal, and subcutaneous

routes with an isolate of B. burgdorferi obtained from the blood of a

trapped wild P. leucopus from Camp McCoy, Wisconsin. All of the mice

developed antibodies to B. burgdorferi which reached a peak indirect

immunofluorescent (IFA) geometric mean antibody titer of 10 log2 21 days

post-inoculation. B burgdorferi was recovered from the blood of 1 P.

maniculatus 21 days post-inoculation. One uninfected Peromyscus of each

species was housed in the same cage with the infected Peromyscus as a

contact control. Both of the contact controls developed IFA B. burgdorferi

antibodies by day 14, indicating contact infection. To determine if B.

burgdorferi was being transmitted by direct contact, 5 uninfected P.

leucopus and 5 uninfected P. maniculatus were caged with 3 B. burgdorferi

infected P. leucopus and 3 infected P. maniculatus, respectively. Each of

these contact-exposed P. leucopus and P. maniculatus developed antibodies to

B. burgdorferi, and B. burgdorferi was isolated from the blood of 1

contact-exposed P. maniculatus 42 days post-initial contact. These findings

show that B. burgdorferi can be transmitted by direct contact without an

arthropod vector.

MeSH

Animal, Antibodies, Bacterial, Borrelia, Borrelia Infections, Fluorescent

Antibody Technique, Peromyscus, Support, U.S. Gov't, P.H.S., Time Factors

[Guest guest]

wow sue, what a great find! thanks,

k

[Guest guest]

Don't forget about in-utero transmission of LD--that's how my daughter probably

got it.

Eileen

[Guest guest]

Marta:

> I am pretty sure it was Willy Burgdorfer himself

Chris:

>I could well be wrong here (LOL!) - but it seems to me that someone told me

>Willie Bergdorfer came over from Germany after the war & that he is quoted in

>a book (??? - darn - can't remember which one, but will find it if of

>interest to anyone) as saying that he recognized the organism (Bb) because he

>himself had been involved in germ warfare research with Bb in Germany.

Hmmm - only stories I'd ever heard (have seen no quotes) were Burgdorfer

saying he'd contracted lyme from infected rabbit urine while in the

mountains...

Sue

[Guest guest]

Wow,

They have known this since 1986?????? This is scary. Thanks for

finding this abstract Sue, this is a keeper.

Hugs,

Marta

> From: Sue <tlizzy@...>

>

> Am J Trop Med Hyg Volume 35 Issue 2

>

> Experimental inoculation of Peromyscus spp. with Borrelia burgdorferi:

> evidence of contact transmission.

> Burgess EC, Amundson TE, JP, Kaslow RA, Edelman R

> Am J Trop Med Hyg 1986 Mar 35:2 355-9

>

> Abstract

> In order to determine if Peromyscus spp. could become infected with the

Lyme

> disease spirochete (Borrelia burgdorferi) by direct inoculation and to

> determine the duration of spirochetemia, 4 P. leucopus and 5 P.

maniculatus

> were inoculated by the intramuscular, intraperitoneal, and subcutaneous

> routes with an isolate of B. burgdorferi obtained from the blood of a

> trapped wild P. leucopus from Camp McCoy, Wisconsin. All of the mice

> developed antibodies to B. burgdorferi which reached a peak indirect

> immunofluorescent (IFA) geometric mean antibody titer of 10 log2 21 days

> post-inoculation. B burgdorferi was recovered from the blood of 1 P.

> maniculatus 21 days post-inoculation. One uninfected Peromyscus of each

> species was housed in the same cage with the infected Peromyscus as a

> contact control. Both of the contact controls developed IFA B. burgdorferi

> antibodies by day 14, indicating contact infection. To determine if B.

> burgdorferi was being transmitted by direct contact, 5 uninfected P.

> leucopus and 5 uninfected P. maniculatus were caged with 3 B. burgdorferi

> infected P. leucopus and 3 infected P. maniculatus, respectively. Each of

> these contact-exposed P. leucopus and P. maniculatus developed antibodies

to

> B. burgdorferi, and B. burgdorferi was isolated from the blood of 1

> contact-exposed P. maniculatus 42 days post-initial contact. These

findings

> show that B. burgdorferi can be transmitted by direct contact without an

> arthropod vector.

>

> MeSH

> Animal, Antibodies, Bacterial, Borrelia, Borrelia Infections, Fluorescent

> Antibody Technique, Peromyscus, Support, U.S. Gov't, P.H.S., Time Factors

[Guest guest]

Well, I got the urine part right anyway, I did write Forschner and am

awaiting a reply, I don't expect it too soon as she is a busy lady.

> From: Sue <tlizzy@...>

>

> Marta:

>

> > I am pretty sure it was Willy Burgdorfer himself

>

>

> Hmmm - only stories I'd ever heard (have seen no quotes) were Burgdorfer

> saying he'd contracted lyme from infected rabbit urine while in the

> mountains...

>

> Sue

[Guest guest]

Probably the same reason they have trouble culturing the spirochetes from

blood, Dr in CT was working on a test for culturing blood and he

claimed he had good results, problem was no other labs were able to

duplicate his process, so as far as I know that one is out and a real shame

as it looked promising. I really don't understand the microbiology of this

disease, only that NO tests to date are reliable.

Marta

> From: DobeLovr1@...

>

> Hi All,

>

> Please - forgive my probable stupidity here...

>

> Is there any reason that those who do culture mediums or other tests could

> not do these tests on saliva? (Other than fearing for their lives if they

> told the truth about what they found - if anything.)

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-02-12 06:52:22 EST, you write:

<<Just a thought here, how many of ya'll have a Veterinarian you can BS with?

Mine is an Good 'ol Boy and told me to come on down the next time I have an

E.M. rash, he wants to do a scraping and take a look. Hmmmm And he is an

AVID hunter so he is interested in my dog and I having LD where 'there is

none " (Texas) Makes this 'ol Vet Tech wanna git a scope herself!

Pepi

>>

Dear Pepi,

I agree wholeheartedly - don't stop with vets - call any wildlife rehabbers

in your area (animal control people can tell you how to contact them). I did

so & found a real wealth of information. In fact, they referred me to a

research doc at Loyola Univ. who is testing ticks & learned that we DO live

in a real hotbed & that all 3 of the biggies are most commonly being found

right where we live. (Apparently, according to this doc, there seem to be

" pockets " where almost all of the ticks are infected & then just a few miles

away, nothing is being found.)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-02-12 03:35:12 EST, you write:

<< They have known this since 1986?????? This is scary. Thanks for

finding this abstract Sue, this is a keeper.

Hugs,

Marta

>>

Dear Marta, Sue & All,

Kind of shows " their " intent & concern for all the good little citizens of

the " village " - doesn't it? (GRRR!)

Why is it never docs who do these sorts of things (suppressing such important

info) that lose licenses - why is it always those who fall into the HERO

category that are persecuted? There seems to be a couple of unwritten rules

they're playing by - don't under any circumstance treat the patient

thoroughly & ABOVE ALL ELSE - never tell the truth!

[Guest guest]

Just a thought here, how many of ya'll have a Veterinarian you can BS with?

Mine is an Good 'ol Boy and told me to come on down the next time I have an

E.M. rash, he wants to do a scraping and take a look. Hmmmm And he is an

AVID hunter so he is interested in my dog and I having LD where 'there is

none " (Texas) Makes this 'ol Vet Tech wanna git a scope herself!

Pepi