Men not feeling better on TRT and wanting to Quit.

[Guest guest]

Here is a post at Dr. 's forum about one such man. I pray that the new men

that read this understand why it is must to test Estradiol E2 levels both before

going on TRT and after.

===============================================================

No benefit from TRT. DHT and E2 spiking

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been on testosterone 50mg every 3.5 days and hcg 250 IU every 3.5 days (24

hours before T injection) for six months. My testosterone labs are good but my

E2 and DHT are not. I ran these labs (E2 and DHT) because my hair was starting

to thin and I felt I was putting on weight around my waist. Also, I was not

feeling any benefit from the TRT. The labs showed high results for both DHT and

E2:

Estradiol - 53.2 pg / mL on a range of 7.6 - 42.6 (Labcorps).

DHT - 90 ng / dL on a range of 30-85 (Labcorps).

Total T and Free T are upper third of range. SHBG is 21.

I also have low cortisol but cannot get my hands on the results. My doctor told

me I am at 30% on waking, 40% early afternoon, 15% early evening, and zero on

retiring.

Despite reading a lot of excellent threads (especially by chilln), my knowledge

is still very limited and would appreciate some guidance.

I'm at the stage where I wonder if I am doing myself more harm than good. My E2

is high, my DHT is high, and I do not feel any different to pre TRT. I am very

tempted to cease TRT. Yes, this is drastic but I feel as though my body is using

the T against me, if that makes sense. I am certainly not getting any benefits.

Any feedback will be very welcomed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

My Reply to him.

=====================================================================

Re: No benefit from TRT. DHT and E2 spiking

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look at it this way most man on TRT are going to have higher levels of Estraidol

E2 it a given. Not all men but most of them. Now to lower your dose of T to

lower your E2 levels to me is nuts your going to crash.

Did you have your E2 levels tested before going on TRT if not how do you know

you werent to high to start with.

I feel your feeling bad because of your higher levels of E2 they should be

between 15 to 20 pg/ml with a good level of SHBG at 21.

I take Arimidex to keep my E2 levels down I find it's a small price to pay to

have higher levels of T and have to take some arimidex to keep E2 down. Higher

levels of E2 will undo all the good the T is doing get your E2 down you should

feel better.

To get your E2 down at above 50 pg/ml take .5 mgs of Arimidex every 3 days. Read

this copy of a file I made about not going to low on arimidex.

====================================

How To Take Arimdex and not go down on your Estradiol to Low.

What I found is if you go to low taking arimidex, it's the length of time your

to low, if your too low say for 8 weeks it can take your body a longer time to

make more Estradiol. Bottom line is to know how not to go to low. Keep a log on

your dose and how you feel men going to low can't get it up taking Viagra. I

went to low when I first tried Arimidex and did not know about going to low or

how one feels to low, so I was low a good 8 weeks. I did not know I was low

until my next labs.

The best gage I have found to control your Estradiol levels is to gage your

night time and morning wood. At good levels or what I call the sweet spot you

get your night time and morning wood back so strong it will wake you up and you

can hang a coat on it.

Most men do good taking .25 mgs or 1/4 of a 1mg. pill, I use a pill cutter to

cut the small pill in half then I stand it on the cut end and use a single edge

razor to cut this in half. A good way to take arimidex is by how high your

levels are. I tested over 90 pg/ml so we tried doing .5 mgs every other day

after 8 weeks my next set of labs showed it did not move below 90, test said

>90. So we did .5 mgs. every day in about 2 weeks I got some strong night time

and morning wood back after not having them for many yrs.

I kept doing this dose and in 8 weeks my next set of labs said <20 back in the

day labs were like this they did not have to good labs we have today they could

not read lower the 20. My Dr. told me this looks to low to stop taking the

Arimidex. The one thing I noticed was my wood stopped and stopping the Arimidex

my wood came back in about 7 weeks my next test at 8 weeks was 24 pg/ml. So we

went back on the Arimidex but the Dr. told me to take .5 mgs every 3 days I was

on this dose not a week and lost wood. This is when I figured out going to low

you lose wood. And the longer your too low the longer it takes to get levels

back up.

I stopped the arimidex right away and got my wood back in 4 days. I then after

playing with the dose for a time found the best dose is .25mgs every 2 to 3

days.

So lets say your labs are less the 50 pg/ml if your take .5 mgs you can go down

so dam fast your miss the sweet spot of your wood and go to low. It's best with

lower levels 50 and under to do less Arimidex .25mgs every 2 days if later your

lose wood when it comes back go to every 3 days.

I have found estradiol is the hardest hormone to control, it goes up or down

from month to month some times I need .25mgs every 2 days other times I need

..25mgs everyday most of the time I do well on every 3 days.

So between wood and labs I do great and so do most of the men I have told this

to. I keep a log on how much I am taking and how I feel. Doing this and reading

back in my log I was able to tell when I was going to high or to low my Dr. lets

me dose my arimidex by how I feel.

Over the yrs. I have posted this story until I am blue in the face.

--------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't get your Dr. to treat your E2 levels with arimidex then get some

Indolplex/DIM and use this. For most men it works it's just slower.

=====================================

ALL ABOUT DIM.

Sure here is a few links that are all about it. But there are a lot of Co.'s out

there selling DIM that don't work well. Indolplex/DIM is the best it dose not

get killed in your stomach when you take it.

Diindolylmethane (DIM) is a stable indole found in cruciferous vegetables which

promotes a beneficial estrogen metabolism in both women and men.

http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

in this link it's full of links about it.

http://qualitycounts.com/fpdim.html

http://www.jbc.org/content/278/23/21136.full

If you have DIM in caps it's not Indolplex so to take this and to get it to work

open the cap pore the DIM into a spoon add some Olive oil and take it this helps

to keep it from getting killed in your stomach.

The following is some links to where you can buy Indolplex/DIM.

http://www.vitaglo.com/e5336.html

http://www.vitacost.com/EnzymaticThe...searchtext-dim

http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Thera...ets/12814?at=0

http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Thera...ets/12814?at=0

http://www.estrobalance.net/

http://www.easyhealthzone.com/Produc...P0108 & click=71

http://www.nbizz.com/longevityclinic/listings/213.html

http://www.drugnatural.com/mm5/merch...ct_Code=156497

http://www.smartbomb.com/itindo9.htm...:referralID=NA

http://www.ritecare.com/cgi-bin/cart...arch=iti-75336

http://www.naturamart.com/phytopharm...-120-caps.html

How to take Indolplex/DIM take one tablet 120 mgs at dinner time it can take 2

weeks to 2 months to get your Estradiol levels down it's all about how high you

are in your levels. What you need to do is get this down to about 20 pg/ml. When

you get this low your night time and morning wood will come back so strong it

will wake you up this means most of the time your at your best levels or what I

call the sweet spot. Keep taking the DIM but if your wood stops your going down

to low so just stop taking it. The day your wood comes back go back on the DIM

but cut the tablet in half. If your Testosterone was tested and low but your not

on TRT get it tested again you might find your levels came up some 200 to 300

points.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174

----------------------------------------------------------------------

And this is a great reply from EIC.

=====================================================================

Re: No benefit from TRT. DHT and E2 spiking

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand where you are coming from, but you are being a tad too defeatist in

wanting to give up on TRT this soon.

Your T levels sound good so the dose is okay. Don't tinker.

Your SHBG level is spot on. Don't tinker.

Your DHT levels are not THAT high. Not high enough to warrant drastic measures

like a reduction in your T dose or reliance on 5-alpha reductase inhibitors

(Propecia, etc.). Don't tinker for now.

Your E2 levels are way, way, way too high. This will negate all the benefits of

TRT, without a doubt. Rather than explain how this happens, I will quote a good

explanation from another site. Pay particular attention to the parts in bold:

Quote:

Originally Posted by

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybu\

ilding_trt/estradiol_why_you_should_care

From the beginning...

Estradiol is an estrogen. It is known on blood tests as E2. Many people (even

doctors) simply call it estrogen.

Why it Matters

There are basically two reasons we care about estradiol.

The first is that E2 is a powerful testosterone receptor antagonist. What this

means is that estradiol binds to androgen receptors and renders them useless.

When testosterone binds to an androgen receptor, it activates the receptor and

you get the effect you're looking for. When estradiol binds to that receptor, it

blocks testosterone from binding, yet it does not active the receptor, so

nothing happens.

This means that if your estradiol is high, no matter how much testosterone you

have, it isn't helping you as it should because too many of your androgen

receptors are blocked by estradiol and your free testosterone has no where to

go. Testosterone can't do you any good if it doesn't have receptors available to

activate.

It can even get worse... because high levels of estradiol can cause the

downregulation of androgen receptors. This means that your body may respond to

higher levels of estradiol by creating fewer androgen receptors as cells are

replaced in normal regeneration. In other words, not only does estradiol block

the available androgen receptors, it causes your body to produce fewer of them

in the future! This is one reason why raising testosterone levels may not have

any immediate effect. It may be that your receptors have downregulated and so

you'll need to lower estradiol and increase testosterone in order to get your

body to upregulate again and this takes time.

The second reason we care about estradiol is that you also have estrogen

receptors and estradiol binds to them and causes them to activate. This is fine

if you want to grow man boobs, store fat on your belly, and have an enlarged

prostate, but not so good if you want to look and feel like a man.

Where It Comes From

Brushing aside the highly controversial subject of environmental estrogens, the

primary pathway for estradiol production is via the conversion of testosterone

by aromatase. This means that the aromatase enzyme binds to testosterone and

chemically converts it to estradiol. Think about that for a minute. Realize that

this conversion is a double whammy. In one process you're losing T and gaining

E. Obviously this is not good.

This is where aromatase inhibitors (AI) like anastrozole (brand name Arimidex -

aka " adex " etc.) come into the picture. They bind to the aromatase enzyme and

prevent it from converting your testosterone to estradiol. They do not work

directly on estradiol nor on estrogen receptors. It is SERM's like Clomid and

Nolvadex that bind to estrogen receptors. SERM's and AI's are different animals,

so don't get them confused.

So an AI gives you the double whammy in reverse. It prevents the loss of

testosterone to conversion and consequently lowers your estradiol which helps

keep your androgen receptors available for testosterone.

E Follows T

Here's where doctors **** up. They forget that E follows T. As your T levels go

up, so will your E levels. If you're not doing something to control your E (like

taking an AI) then you aren't really going to get anywhere with higher T levels

because your higher E levels are just going to cancel out any beneficial effect

from the T. Like I said, your T can't do you any good if all your androgen

receptors are bound with estradiol.

For those of us with " age related " low T, this is a serious issue because our

bodies are naturally trying to keep T low and E high by pumping out aromatase.

If you're younger and have low T for some other reason, aromatase may not be as

much of an issue, but it still matters.

Fat

Fat produces estrogen and aromatase; even in men. If you're carrying extra fat,

one of the best things you can do to help your hormone balance is to lose the

fat.

In Range does not equal Normal

One of the problems you're likely to face is the problem of doctors believing

that any blood test value that is " in range " is " normal " and therefor fine. I

wish it was that simple.

Let's look at testosterone values. The range for Quest is 241-847 ng/dL. But

those values are derived simply by looking at the values of everyone who has a

blood test for testosterone. What's normal for a younger man is to be in the

higher end of the range. What's normal for an older man is to be in the lower

end of the range. Well low T might be " normal " but that doesn't mean it's good!

I may be an older guy, but why should I be happy with low T simply because it's

normal? ALL men of all ages should be in the higher end of the range if they

want to feel good and perform athletically and sexually as men.

The same holds true for estradiol. The range is 13-54 pg/mL but " normal " young

men are at the low end of the range and that's where you want to be as well.

Trust me, if your T is 250 and your E is 50, you may be " in range " for both

values, but you aren't going to feel good or have anywhere near the athletic and

sexual performance that would have if your T was 800 and your E was 15.

Natural Variation

All populations exhibit variation. The average height for men might be 5' 10 "

but we all know guys who are much taller and much shorter. This same variation

applies to T levels, E levels, and reactions to various therapies. In other

words, while the principals I've outlined hold true in general, how they

specifically apply to you will vary. Be smart and deal with it.

As Phil points out, it is easy to overdo Arimidex. Most standard dosages that I

see are in the neighborhood of 1 mg per 100 mg. of Testosterone. So if you are

injecting 100 mg. of T a week (and you are), you might consider trying 1 mg. of

Arimidex a week in divided doses.

My advice is to get on some Arimidex and get that estrogen under control. Once

it is within the proper range (should be around 21, your SHBG value), I suspect

that you will soon feel fantastic.

Give it a couple months with all your numbers in a proper place before you give

up on TRT. And if it works, be thankful that your health problems can disappear

by ingesting a simple pill (Arimidex) every so often when so many people have

problems that remain despite the most significant of daily efforts.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

It is not hard to feel better on TRT it's is simple.