Re: Starting to have doubts

[Guest guest]

>

> Oops, forgot to ask. How long after I start taking the DIM would I notice if

its going to have any effect?

>

If a person is an undermethylator DIM can back fire. I would suggest iodoral

over it any day..It does not altered methlyation like DIM..

Many people with fatigue are usually undermethylated which makes DIM a poor

choice.

[Guest guest]

Well yes Free T is important but first you need enough Total T Free T is only 2%

of all the T in your body. And it's not all bound up so if you have a Total T

level of 120 and a high Free T level you still have a big problem 2% of 120 is a

lot less then 2% of say 650. Here is what Dr. M says and do will not dose by

Free T he uses Total.

===========================================================================

I generally don't use Free Testosterone. It does not reflect Testosterone

signaling very well. It is only a small part of the testosterone signal.

When doing testosterone replacement treatment, as long as Total Testosterone is

at least 650, then any remaining problems are not due to testosterone. They are

problems with the rest of the system. This level is half-way between the

reference ranges of 300-1000 ng/dL for testosterone and is in line with the

Endocrine Society's basic guidelines for testosterone replacement therapy.

Generally, I would not treat a person with testosterone if their total

testosterone is over 500 ng/dL. I would look for problems in the rest of the

system that are contributing to their illness.

Optimal Testosterone is anywhere between 650 to 1000 ng/dL.

__________________

-

Romeo B. no, MD, physician, psychiatrist

Any information provided on www.definitivemind.com is for informational purposes

only, is not medical advice, does not create a doctor/patient relationship or

liability, is not exhaustive, does not cover all conditions or their treatment,

and will change as knowledge progresses. Always seek the advice of your

physician or other qualified health provider before undertaking any diet,

exercise, supplement, medical, or other health program.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: esplinbj <no_reply >

> Subject: Re: Starting to have doubts

>

> Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 6:21 PM

> I have to say that I think the free

> test level is very important and is overlooked by many

> doctors.  In my opinion, and from what I have learned,

> it's the free test level that is important, and the total

> level that really isn't very important.  A high level

> of bound testosterone does nothing for you.

>

> I haven't been able to find a TRT " expert " in my area, but

> at least I have found a doctor willing to work with me, and

> open to things like Arimidex.  As such I need to make

> sure I know what is best for me to work with my doctor in

> that direction.

> bjesplin

>

>

> >

> > > From: <ryanrettell@...>

> > > Subject: Starting to have doubts

> > >

> > > Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 2:18 PM

> > > Hi all, 29 year old male here.

> > >

> > > Ive posted before but thought I would create a

> new thread.

> > > I just got my latest lab results. After being off

> Androgel

> > > for 5 weeks, my current doc (3rd now) tested more

> than Ive

> > > had tested before but still wouldnt do all the

> tests I

> > > needed done. Here they are:

> > >

> > > FSH           

> > > 5.3           

> > > 4.54 - 22.51 mIU/ML

> > >

> > > Prolactin       

> > > 10.75       

> > >     2.64 †" 13.13 ng/ml

> > >

> > > Testosterone       

> > > 5.83           

> > > 1.75 †" 7.81 NG/ML

> > >

> > > LH           

> > > 5.9           

> > > 1.5 †" 9.3 mIU/mL

> > >

> > > Test, Free(Direct)    12   

> > >         9.3 †" 26.5 PG/ML

> > >

> > > They were drawn at 11 am.

> > >

> > >

> > > I had to call the office 3 times and finally got

> a hold of

> > > a nurse who told me that since my free

> testosterone was

> > > normal, to just stay off Androgel for 3 months

> and get more

> > > labs done in 3 months. What I dont get is that

> before my

> > > family doc started me on Androgel my free T was

> barely in

> > > range I think at 9.7, then after 4 months of

> being on it,

> > > doc #2 tested and it came back 12.4

> > >

> > > Here is where the doubts come in. Maybe my

> problems arent

> > > related to testosterone. I dont really have all

> the

> > > symptoms. Im not really fatigued, my muscle mass

> isnt that

> > > bad. But I do have really low libido, difficulty

> > > concentration, occasional emotional problems, ED

> (difficult

> > > to get an erection and when I do, without

> stimulation its

> > > gone in like 30 seconds) Another thing, I tried

> viagra when

> > > I was on Androgel and it worked great. Now that

> im off it,

> > > viagra didnt do anything.

> > >

> > > Something I noticed too is that when I was on

> Androgel I

> > > pretty much had morning erections every day. Now

> that I went

> > > off it, I never have any. So, my only hope now is

> that

> > > whenever I find a doctor who will treat the

> patient and not

> > > the labs, they will get my Estradiol checked and

> it will be

> > > off. Maybe thats whats wrong with me.

> > >

> > > On monday im going to call a compounding pharmacy

> in

> > > Charlotte to get some recommendations. I tried

> one where I

> > > live (thanks to the advice of Phil) and they

> didnt know of

> > > any docs locally who used HCG or Arimidex, etc.

> to treat

> > > hypogonadism. He suggested I try a bigger city a

> little

> > > farther away. And I guess if that doctor doesn't

> do what I

> > > want, I guess I will have to travel farther north

> to get

> > > some help.

> > >

> > > Anyway, Thanks for listening.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I check it every 8 weeks I do this test that covers it all at Quest Labs.

Testosterone, Free, Bioavailable & Total LC/MS/MS Code # 14966X.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> > I have to say that I think the free test level is very

> important and is overlooked by many doctors.  In my

> opinion, and from what I have learned, it's the free test

> level that is important, and the total level that really

> isn't very important.  A high level of bound

> testosterone does nothing for you.

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

No it should not have an effect on your labs other then freeing up your bound

Testosterone do to high Estradiol and SHBG levels. The DIM converts the

Estradiol onto good E's so your liver can wash them out.

http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

This link if full of links about DIM.

http://qualitycounts.com/fpdim.html

If you can't get the kind I gave you a link to the other brands are not so great

but some men say if you take it with some oil like olive oil it dose not get

killed in the stomach.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: <ryanrettell@...>

> Subject: Re: Starting to have doubts

>

> Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 8:40 PM

> Thanks for the info, whenever I find

> a new doc I will get him/her to check my SHBG and your

> Estradiol levels for sure.

>

> Being off the gel Ive had bad days and most days are just

> ok. Every once in a while I get the urge to cry for no

> reason and then im fine. Also, sometimes im quicker to get

> agitated.

>

> I will order some of that stuff right away and try it out.

> But, won't that affect my labs whenever I do get them done?

> Oh, and do they sell it just online or can I go to GNC or

> like a VitaminShoppe (both have stores locally where I

> live)

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > > From: <ryanrettell@...>

> > > Subject: Starting to have doubts

> > >

> > > Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 2:18 PM

> > > Hi all, 29 year old male here.

> > >

> > > Ive posted before but thought I would create a

> new thread.

> > > I just got my latest lab results. After being off

> Androgel

> > > for 5 weeks, my current doc (3rd now) tested more

> than Ive

> > > had tested before but still wouldnt do all the

> tests I

> > > needed done. Here they are:

> > >

> > > FSH           

> > > 5.3           

> > > 4.54 - 22.51 mIU/ML

> > >

> > > Prolactin       

> > > 10.75       

> > >     2.64 †" 13.13 ng/ml

> > >

> > > Testosterone       

> > > 5.83           

> > > 1.75 †" 7.81 NG/ML

> > >

> > > LH           

> > > 5.9           

> > > 1.5 †" 9.3 mIU/mL

> > >

> > > Test, Free(Direct)    12   

> > >         9.3 †" 26.5 PG/ML

> > >

> > > They were drawn at 11 am.

> > >

> > >

> > > I had to call the office 3 times and finally got

> a hold of

> > > a nurse who told me that since my free

> testosterone was

> > > normal, to just stay off Androgel for 3 months

> and get more

> > > labs done in 3 months. What I dont get is that

> before my

> > > family doc started me on Androgel my free T was

> barely in

> > > range I think at 9.7, then after 4 months of

> being on it,

> > > doc #2 tested and it came back 12.4

> > >

> > > Here is where the doubts come in. Maybe my

> problems arent

> > > related to testosterone. I dont really have all

> the

> > > symptoms. Im not really fatigued, my muscle mass

> isnt that

> > > bad. But I do have really low libido, difficulty

> > > concentration, occasional emotional problems, ED

> (difficult

> > > to get an erection and when I do, without

> stimulation its

> > > gone in like 30 seconds) Another thing, I tried

> viagra when

> > > I was on Androgel and it worked great. Now that

> im off it,

> > > viagra didnt do anything.

> > >

> > > Something I noticed too is that when I was on

> Androgel I

> > > pretty much had morning erections every day. Now

> that I went

> > > off it, I never have any. So, my only hope now is

> that

> > > whenever I find a doctor who will treat the

> patient and not

> > > the labs, they will get my Estradiol checked and

> it will be

> > > off. Maybe thats whats wrong with me.

> > >

> > > On monday im going to call a compounding pharmacy

> in

> > > Charlotte to get some recommendations. I tried

> one where I

> > > live (thanks to the advice of Phil) and they

> didnt know of

> > > any docs locally who used HCG or Arimidex, etc.

> to treat

> > > hypogonadism. He suggested I try a bigger city a

> little

> > > farther away. And I guess if that doctor doesn't

> do what I

> > > want, I guess I will have to travel farther north

> to get

> > > some help.

> > >

> > > Anyway, Thanks for listening.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

If your very high it can take a good 6 to 8 weeks but you start to feel better a

little everyday.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: <ryanrettell@...>

> Subject: Re: Starting to have doubts

>

> Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 8:46 PM

> Oops, forgot to ask. How long after I

> start taking the DIM would I notice if its going to have any

> effect?

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

This past January my total testosterone was 805 range 250-1100, but my free

testosterone was 56.2 range 46-224, and bioavailable testosterone was 127.8

range 110-575. This demonstrates the need to test free and bioavailable

testosterone. If it hadn't been checked my doctor would have said my

testosterone lever was great and done nothing more. As it turns out my E2 was

high and SHBG was high. Taking Arimidex lowered my E2 and my SHBG and increased

my free test some, but it's still in the low end of the range. Now my total

testosterone is in the 400-500 range. Bound testosterone is not eliminated from

your body as quickly as free testosterone, therefore a high SHBG will drive up

total testosterone levels. I am now on compounded testosterone cream to bring

up the total and free test levels to midrange or higher. Again I point out that

a total testosterone number without the free or boiavailable testosterone number

is rather useless.

bjesplin

> > >

> > > > From: <ryanrettell@>

> > > > Subject: Starting to have doubts

> > > >

> > > > Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 2:18 PM

> > > > Hi all, 29 year old male here.

> > > >

> > > > Ive posted before but thought I would create a

> > new thread.

> > > > I just got my latest lab results. After being off

> > Androgel

> > > > for 5 weeks, my current doc (3rd now) tested more

> > than Ive

> > > > had tested before but still wouldnt do all the

> > tests I

> > > > needed done. Here they are:

> > > >

> > > > FSH           

> > > > 5.3           

> > > > 4.54 - 22.51 mIU/ML

> > > >

> > > > Prolactin       

> > > > 10.75       

> > > >     2.64 †" 13.13 ng/ml

> > > >

> > > > Testosterone       

> > > > 5.83           

> > > > 1.75 †" 7.81 NG/ML

> > > >

> > > > LH           

> > > > 5.9           

> > > > 1.5 †" 9.3 mIU/mL

> > > >

> > > > Test, Free(Direct)    12   

> > > >         9.3 †" 26.5 PG/ML

> > > >

> > > > They were drawn at 11 am.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I had to call the office 3 times and finally got

> > a hold of

> > > > a nurse who told me that since my free

> > testosterone was

> > > > normal, to just stay off Androgel for 3 months

> > and get more

> > > > labs done in 3 months. What I dont get is that

> > before my

> > > > family doc started me on Androgel my free T was

> > barely in

> > > > range I think at 9.7, then after 4 months of

> > being on it,

> > > > doc #2 tested and it came back 12.4

> > > >

> > > > Here is where the doubts come in. Maybe my

> > problems arent

> > > > related to testosterone. I dont really have all

> > the

> > > > symptoms. Im not really fatigued, my muscle mass

> > isnt that

> > > > bad. But I do have really low libido, difficulty

> > > > concentration, occasional emotional problems, ED

> > (difficult

> > > > to get an erection and when I do, without

> > stimulation its

> > > > gone in like 30 seconds) Another thing, I tried

> > viagra when

> > > > I was on Androgel and it worked great. Now that

> > im off it,

> > > > viagra didnt do anything.

> > > >

> > > > Something I noticed too is that when I was on

> > Androgel I

> > > > pretty much had morning erections every day. Now

> > that I went

> > > > off it, I never have any. So, my only hope now is

> > that

> > > > whenever I find a doctor who will treat the

> > patient and not

> > > > the labs, they will get my Estradiol checked and

> > it will be

> > > > off. Maybe thats whats wrong with me.

> > > >

> > > > On monday im going to call a compounding pharmacy

> > in

> > > > Charlotte to get some recommendations. I tried

> > one where I

> > > > live (thanks to the advice of Phil) and they

> > didnt know of

> > > > any docs locally who used HCG or Arimidex, etc.

> > to treat

> > > > hypogonadism. He suggested I try a bigger city a

> > little

> > > > farther away. And I guess if that doctor doesn't

> > do what I

> > > > want, I guess I will have to travel farther north

> > to get

> > > > some help.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, Thanks for listening.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Thanks! I ordered some of the stuff but from another website (bodybuilding.com)

since the other one had an issue with their warehouse and shipping would have

been slower.

> > >

> > > > From: <ryanrettell@>

> > > > Subject: Starting to have doubts

> > > >

> > > > Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 2:18 PM

> > > > Hi all, 29 year old male here.

> > > >

> > > > Ive posted before but thought I would create a

> > new thread.

> > > > I just got my latest lab results. After being off

> > Androgel

> > > > for 5 weeks, my current doc (3rd now) tested more

> > than Ive

> > > > had tested before but still wouldnt do all the

> > tests I

> > > > needed done. Here they are:

> > > >

> > > > FSH           

> > > > 5.3           

> > > > 4.54 - 22.51 mIU/ML

> > > >

> > > > Prolactin       

> > > > 10.75       

> > > >     2.64 †" 13.13 ng/ml

> > > >

> > > > Testosterone       

> > > > 5.83           

> > > > 1.75 †" 7.81 NG/ML

> > > >

> > > > LH           

> > > > 5.9           

> > > > 1.5 †" 9.3 mIU/mL

> > > >

> > > > Test, Free(Direct)    12   

> > > >         9.3 †" 26.5 PG/ML

> > > >

> > > > They were drawn at 11 am.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I had to call the office 3 times and finally got

> > a hold of

> > > > a nurse who told me that since my free

> > testosterone was

> > > > normal, to just stay off Androgel for 3 months

> > and get more

> > > > labs done in 3 months. What I dont get is that

> > before my

> > > > family doc started me on Androgel my free T was

> > barely in

> > > > range I think at 9.7, then after 4 months of

> > being on it,

> > > > doc #2 tested and it came back 12.4

> > > >

> > > > Here is where the doubts come in. Maybe my

> > problems arent

> > > > related to testosterone. I dont really have all

> > the

> > > > symptoms. Im not really fatigued, my muscle mass

> > isnt that

> > > > bad. But I do have really low libido, difficulty

> > > > concentration, occasional emotional problems, ED

> > (difficult

> > > > to get an erection and when I do, without

> > stimulation its

> > > > gone in like 30 seconds) Another thing, I tried

> > viagra when

> > > > I was on Androgel and it worked great. Now that

> > im off it,

> > > > viagra didnt do anything.

> > > >

> > > > Something I noticed too is that when I was on

> > Androgel I

> > > > pretty much had morning erections every day. Now

> > that I went

> > > > off it, I never have any. So, my only hope now is

> > that

> > > > whenever I find a doctor who will treat the

> > patient and not

> > > > the labs, they will get my Estradiol checked and

> > it will be

> > > > off. Maybe thats whats wrong with me.

> > > >

> > > > On monday im going to call a compounding pharmacy

> > in

> > > > Charlotte to get some recommendations. I tried

> > one where I

> > > > live (thanks to the advice of Phil) and they

> > didnt know of

> > > > any docs locally who used HCG or Arimidex, etc.

> > to treat

> > > > hypogonadism. He suggested I try a bigger city a

> > little

> > > > farther away. And I guess if that doctor doesn't

> > do what I

> > > > want, I guess I will have to travel farther north

> > to get

> > > > some help.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, Thanks for listening.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

White button mushrooms are AI's as well.

tpc

> > > >

> > > > > From: <ryanrettell@>

> > > > > Subject: Starting to have doubts

> > > > >

> > > > > Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 2:18 PM

> > > > > Hi all, 29 year old male here.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ive posted before but thought I would create a

> > > new thread.

> > > > > I just got my latest lab results. After being off

> > > Androgel

> > > > > for 5 weeks, my current doc (3rd now) tested more

> > > than Ive

> > > > > had tested before but still wouldnt do all the

> > > tests I

> > > > > needed done. Here they are:

> > > > >

> > > > > FSH           

> > > > > 5.3           

> > > > > 4.54 - 22.51 mIU/ML

> > > > >

> > > > > Prolactin       

> > > > > 10.75       

> > > > >     2.64 †" 13.13 ng/ml

> > > > >

> > > > > Testosterone       

> > > > > 5.83           

> > > > > 1.75 †" 7.81 NG/ML

> > > > >

> > > > > LH           

> > > > > 5.9           

> > > > > 1.5 †" 9.3 mIU/mL

> > > > >

> > > > > Test, Free(Direct)    12   

> > > > >         9.3 †" 26.5 PG/ML

> > > > >

> > > > > They were drawn at 11 am.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I had to call the office 3 times and finally got

> > > a hold of

> > > > > a nurse who told me that since my free

> > > testosterone was

> > > > > normal, to just stay off Androgel for 3 months

> > > and get more

> > > > > labs done in 3 months. What I dont get is that

> > > before my

> > > > > family doc started me on Androgel my free T was

> > > barely in

> > > > > range I think at 9.7, then after 4 months of

> > > being on it,

> > > > > doc #2 tested and it came back 12.4

> > > > >

> > > > > Here is where the doubts come in. Maybe my

> > > problems arent

> > > > > related to testosterone. I dont really have all

> > > the

> > > > > symptoms. Im not really fatigued, my muscle mass

> > > isnt that

> > > > > bad. But I do have really low libido, difficulty

> > > > > concentration, occasional emotional problems, ED

> > > (difficult

> > > > > to get an erection and when I do, without

> > > stimulation its

> > > > > gone in like 30 seconds) Another thing, I tried

> > > viagra when

> > > > > I was on Androgel and it worked great. Now that

> > > im off it,

> > > > > viagra didnt do anything.

> > > > >

> > > > > Something I noticed too is that when I was on

> > > Androgel I

> > > > > pretty much had morning erections every day. Now

> > > that I went

> > > > > off it, I never have any. So, my only hope now is

> > > that

> > > > > whenever I find a doctor who will treat the

> > > patient and not

> > > > > the labs, they will get my Estradiol checked and

> > > it will be

> > > > > off. Maybe thats whats wrong with me.

> > > > >

> > > > > On monday im going to call a compounding pharmacy

> > > in

> > > > > Charlotte to get some recommendations. I tried

> > > one where I

> > > > > live (thanks to the advice of Phil) and they

> > > didnt know of

> > > > > any docs locally who used HCG or Arimidex, etc.

> > > to treat

> > > > > hypogonadism. He suggested I try a bigger city a

> > > little

> > > > > farther away. And I guess if that doctor doesn't

> > > do what I

> > > > > want, I guess I will have to travel farther north

> > > to get

> > > > > some help.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyway, Thanks for listening.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Iodine/iodide supplementation and DIM are two completely different approaches.

Iodine stabilizes thyroid function, drives out other harmful halogens, and

coincidentally, seems to promote the conversion of genotoxic, mutagenic and

procarcinogenic 16-OHE to protective Estriol. But favoring the good 2-OHE to

harmful 16-OHE (but can either elevate or lower Total E) is what DIM seems to do

best, as completely different approaches. They are apples and oranges, and each

has its own benefits. They should not be confused with each other; nor dissing

one over the other.

> >

> > Oops, forgot to ask. How long after I start taking the DIM would I notice if

its going to have any effect?

> >

>

>

> If a person is an undermethylator DIM can back fire. I would suggest iodoral

over it any day..It does not altered methlyation like DIM..

> Many people with fatigue are usually undermethylated which makes DIM a poor

choice.

>