Re: Starting to have doubts

[Guest guest]

Just to reassure you, we do not have perfect diets either. I have 5

unvaccinated and I took them all everywhere, they mouthed plenty of things.

They

have strong immune systems because they were not vaccinated and because they

have been exposed to everything since newborns. My oldest is 23 and youngest

is 3. They are just fine! I am sure that there are many non vaxing families

who are not the typical kind that you imagine.

Hope that helps!

Mavis

Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.â€

Eph 5:11

_VACCINE RISK AWARENESS NETWORK - " PERSONAL STORY LINKS " _

(http://www.vran.org/links/story-links.htm)

_The Great HPV Vaccine Hoax Exposed_

(http://www.newstarget.com/Report_HPV_Vaccine_0.html)

_Vaccination Information & Choice Network - _

(http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm)

_Vaccination Liberation Home Page_ (http://www.vaclib.org/index.htm)

_ThinkTwice Global Vaccine Institute: Avoid Vaccine Reactions_

(http://thinktwice.com/) _National Vaccine Information Center_

(http://909shot.com/)

In a message dated 5/8/2008 10:35:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

trinnea@... writes:

Don't beat yourself up! I'm sure we all have junkfood from time to

time... my vices are Starbucks and french fries! Your breastmilk is

still awesome and is protecting your daughter.

As far as vaxing because your child goes to daycare, I'd say that's

even more reason NOT to vax. She may pick up the sniffles, but is

overall going to be healthier and better able to fend off all the bugs

and germs in a daycare setting if you don't compromise her immune

system with vaccines. That's all they do is compromise the system.

They aren't proven to provide immunity, and even the CDC will tell you

that. Why subject your child to possible harmful side

effects/autism/effects/autism/<WBR>other chronic disease or death fo

doesn't work anyway? It's russian roulette with your child's

life/health.

My advice is to take a deep breath and keep researching and

researching and researching until you are comfortable. I know we say

it all the time, but it's so true... you can always delay a vaccine,

but you can never take one back after it's administered. If she does

contract a " vaccine-preventablcontract a " vaccine-preventabl<WBR>e " disea

she will have TRUE, LIFE-LONG immunity to the disease.

Hugs to you Mama, you're doing the very best for your child! Give

yourself a break!

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 7:37 AM, cindylouwho_On

Thu,<_cindylouwho_cindylouwcin_ (mailto:cindylouwho_79@...) > wrote:

>

>

> I'm really starting to question my decision not to vaccinate my

> daughter. I'm living in fear almost everyday of her contracting a VPD.

> I would like to selectively vax, but then I can't claim an exemption

> for school.

>

> It seems like a lot of mothers on this board are able to stay home,

> and therefore limit their child's exposure to the outside. I work full-

> time, my daughter is in a home daycare, and I really take my daughter

> everywhere with me, even if there are crowds. I pump breastmilk for

> daycare, and breastfeed at home. I'm not the healthiest eater either.

> I like to drink coke everyday, and have a cheeseburger and pizza every

> now and then. I guess what I'm trying to say is that my lifestyle

> doesn't fit the standards that some non-vaxer families are setting.

>

> Hib scares me the most. I want to give my daughter that vaccine, and

> then hold off on the rest of the vaccines until she is older. If

> anyone has any personal stories like mine, please share. I don't want

> to make a mistake here. However, almost nine months of researching

> vaccines and I still don't feel comfortable with my decision

**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family

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[Guest guest]

I started back to work when ds was 14 mo old, I still pumped for him for a

while, then just went to nursing when he was home with me in the evenings and

before work and he drank juice during the day. He hasn't been vax'ed since he

was 6 mos old, he was selectively vax'ed before then. He has been in severeal

daycares, all home-based. I don't drink soda every day but I have occasional

junk food, my diet isn't the relative healthiest either....though I work for it

to be. Maybe my situation was different, since I did stay home for a year, but

I still refused Hib and everything else. None of it honestly made sense to me

after a while. Hib, while preventing certain strains of meningitis, has the

risk of serotype replacement with other strains....so it in itself is not a

guarantee.

Lori

Starting to have doubts

I'm really starting to question my decision not to vaccinate my

daughter. I'm living in fear almost everyday of her contracting a VPD.

I would like to selectively vax, but then I can't claim an exemption

for school.

It seems like a lot of mothers on this board are able to stay home,

and therefore limit their child's exposure to the outside. I work full-

time, my daughter is in a home daycare, and I really take my daughter

everywhere with me, even if there are crowds. I pump breastmilk for

daycare, and breastfeed at home. I'm not the healthiest eater either.

I like to drink coke everyday, and have a cheeseburger and pizza every

now and then. I guess what I'm trying to say is that my lifestyle

doesn't fit the standards that some non-vaxer families are setting.

Hib scares me the most. I want to give my daughter that vaccine, and

then hold off on the rest of the vaccines until she is older. If

anyone has any personal stories like mine, please share. I don't want

to make a mistake here. However, almost nine months of researching

vaccines and I still don't feel comfortable with my decision.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Checked by AVG.

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AM

[Guest guest]

Don't beat yourself up! I'm sure we all have junkfood from time to

time... my vices are Starbucks and french fries! Your breastmilk is

still awesome and is protecting your daughter.

As far as vaxing because your child goes to daycare, I'd say that's

even more reason NOT to vax. She may pick up the sniffles, but is

overall going to be healthier and better able to fend off all the bugs

and germs in a daycare setting if you don't compromise her immune

system with vaccines. That's all they do is compromise the system.

They aren't proven to provide immunity, and even the CDC will tell you

that. Why subject your child to possible harmful side

effects/autism/other chronic disease or death for something that

doesn't work anyway? It's russian roulette with your child's

life/health.

My advice is to take a deep breath and keep researching and

researching and researching until you are comfortable. I know we say

it all the time, but it's so true... you can always delay a vaccine,

but you can never take one back after it's administered. If she does

contract a " vaccine-preventable " disease, it can be treated, and then

she will have TRUE, LIFE-LONG immunity to the disease.

Hugs to you Mama, you're doing the very best for your child! Give

yourself a break!

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 7:37 AM, cindylouwho_79 <cindylouwho_79@...> wrote:

>

>

> I'm really starting to question my decision not to vaccinate my

> daughter. I'm living in fear almost everyday of her contracting a VPD.

> I would like to selectively vax, but then I can't claim an exemption

> for school.

>

> It seems like a lot of mothers on this board are able to stay home,

> and therefore limit their child's exposure to the outside. I work full-

> time, my daughter is in a home daycare, and I really take my daughter

> everywhere with me, even if there are crowds. I pump breastmilk for

> daycare, and breastfeed at home. I'm not the healthiest eater either.

> I like to drink coke everyday, and have a cheeseburger and pizza every

> now and then. I guess what I'm trying to say is that my lifestyle

> doesn't fit the standards that some non-vaxer families are setting.

>

> Hib scares me the most. I want to give my daughter that vaccine, and

> then hold off on the rest of the vaccines until she is older. If

> anyone has any personal stories like mine, please share. I don't want

> to make a mistake here. However, almost nine months of researching

> vaccines and I still don't feel comfortable with my decision.

[Guest guest]

And then the fear that any child will get a disease that they could have

been vaccinated for is unfounded really as the truth is that there is no

guarantee that the vaccines will give the protection that you would hope for.

The

do not give immunity so in the end, the risk of any diseases are surely

greater with the vaccine toxins than without. Their immune systems are

glorious

things if not supressed and tampered with.

Mavis

Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.â€

Eph 5:11

_VACCINE RISK AWARENESS NETWORK - " PERSONAL STORY LINKS " _

(http://www.vran.org/links/story-links.htm)

_The Great HPV Vaccine Hoax Exposed_

(http://www.newstarget.com/Report_HPV_Vaccine_0.html)

_Vaccination Information & Choice Network - _

(http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm)

_Vaccination Liberation Home Page_ (http://www.vaclib.org/index.htm)

_ThinkTwice Global Vaccine Institute: Avoid Vaccine Reactions_

(http://thinktwice.com/) _National Vaccine Information Center_

(http://909shot.com/)

**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family

favorites at AOL Food.

(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/8/2008 9:38:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

cindylouwho_79@... writes:

It seems like a lot of mothers on this board are able to stay home,

and therefore limit their child's exposure to the outside.

(2 years) is completely unvaxed. I am a " stay at home mom " but really

I am rarely home. goes everywhere (museums, children's play places,

parks, nursery at church, etc) I try to expose her to everything, as it will

build her character, and immune system! I am very confident in saying that

even w/a junky food habit, your child is way better off not being vaccinated!

You are making the right decision.

Holly

**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family

favorites at AOL Food.

(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)

[Guest guest]

First you're already " immunizing " her with your breastmilk. That's a great

thing. I wouldn't do any vaccines at all. There is no such thing as a

'vaccine preventable disease " and if there was, it comes with risks and side

effects. There isn't a pill today that is manufactured that d/n have side

effects. I don't react much to side effects but some people do. It's about

the individual.

Don't worry. I used to take my kids with me everywhere too, even though I

am a sahm. So they got lots of exposure. My oldest did public school K and

the first 2 did preschool outside the home.

I don't have a pop every day, too much HFCS.. it's liquid candy and

fattening. However, I think even for sweets if you live by all things in

moderation.. if that is your only sugar all day, I wouldn't worry. If you

reach for pop and juice before you reach for water, then yes, I would worry

but even given a bad diet full of nothing but pop and eating out, I'd still

that is better than deliberately injecting known toxins into your child.

NOT vaxxing is the BEST decision you will ever make. That's #2. The first is

to keep breastfeeding. Those are the 2 most important things you can do for

your child's health

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

_

[Guest guest]

Thank you for sharing your doubts.

I too question my decision not to vaccinate from time to time. But,

as soon as I get online and start researching the vaccines once

again, I feel better and confident in my decision once again.

Also,I joined this group to have some support from like-minded

people, as everyone I know vaccinates. It's reassuring to hear from

others that have chosen not to vaccinate and to hear how healthy

their kids are.

Doctors would have us all believe that our kids will definitely get

sick and die if we don't vaccinate. We know this isn't true. Think

of it this way: If you don't vaccinate, you may or may not get the

illness and, even if you do, you may or may not have a complication

from it. But if you do vaccinate, right there you're already at the

level of - complication or not. It's like you have another level of

protection: if you don't vaccinate your body may never come in

contact with the bacteria/virus/whatever, but if you do vaccinate

your body definitely has something to try to recover from.

Also, when I heard that adults should get certain vaccines, my first

thought was - I'm not putting that junk in my body!!! Immediately I

thought - If I wouldn't do it to myself, how could I possibly do it

to my little babies??

>

> I'm really starting to question my decision not to vaccinate my

> daughter. I'm living in fear almost everyday of her contracting a

VPD.

> I would like to selectively vax, but then I can't claim an

exemption

> for school.

>

> It seems like a lot of mothers on this board are able to stay home,

> and therefore limit their child's exposure to the outside. I work

full-

> time, my daughter is in a home daycare, and I really take my

daughter

> everywhere with me, even if there are crowds. I pump breastmilk for

> daycare, and breastfeed at home. I'm not the healthiest eater

either.

> I like to drink coke everyday, and have a cheeseburger and pizza

every

> now and then. I guess what I'm trying to say is that my lifestyle

> doesn't fit the standards that some non-vaxer families are setting.

>

> Hib scares me the most. I want to give my daughter that vaccine,

and

> then hold off on the rest of the vaccines until she is older. If

> anyone has any personal stories like mine, please share. I don't

want

> to make a mistake here. However, almost nine months of researching

> vaccines and I still don't feel comfortable with my decision.

>

[Guest guest]

If you do not have a pristine diet, welcome to the club. Vaccines do not become

safer or more effective just because you might think you need extra protection

than others. And if your daughter is nine months old, I think you're probably

out of the woods on worrying about Hib.

It took me years to feel totally comfortable with not vaccinating my kids. I

wrestled with whether one disease might be more serious, or if one vaccine was

" safer " than another. I knew I was doing the right thing based on the logic of

putting toxins into their blood stream, I knew my son's asthma/allergies came

from the MMR vaccine, but still questioned myself because I had no training or

experience in these matters. Now I do after years of not vaxxing and four kids,

and I haven't a doubt in the world about my decision.

I think second-guessing yourself is part of the process you go through when

you're shedding decades of programming. My advice is for you to be sure the

vaccine will work before allowing it, and that you can live with it if your

daughter has a side effect, including death, which can happen with any vaccine.

Winnie

Starting to have doubts

Vaccinations

> I'm really starting to question my decision not to vaccinate my

> daughter. I'm living in fear almost everyday of her contracting

> a VPD.

> I would like to selectively vax, but then I can't claim an

> exemption

> for school.

>

> It seems like a lot of mothers on this board are able to stay

> home,

> and therefore limit their child's exposure to the outside. I

> work full-

> time, my daughter is in a home daycare, and I really take my

> daughter

> everywhere with me, even if there are crowds. I pump breastmilk

> for

> daycare, and breastfeed at home. I'm not the healthiest eater

> either.

> I like to drink coke everyday, and have a cheeseburger and pizza

> every

> now and then. I guess what I'm trying to say is that my

> lifestyle

> doesn't fit the standards that some non-vaxer families are

> setting.

>

> Hib scares me the most. I want to give my daughter that vaccine,

> and

> then hold off on the rest of the vaccines until she is older. If

> anyone has any personal stories like mine, please share. I don't

> want

> to make a mistake here. However, almost nine months of

> researching

> vaccines and I still don't feel comfortable with my decision.

>

>

[Guest guest]

One thing most people don't think about is that there tons of

sicknesses our kids can get get, and these vaccines only cover a

very small amount of those. Therefore, your children are vulnerable

to all of the other things that are not vaccinated for (and really

they are still vulnerable to the ones that you do vax for). So, by

vaxing, you are really not saving your children from getting

sicknesses. Trying to cut out a few sicknesses is really not going

to put a dent in whether they get sick from something that could

cause them a complication. They make it sound like if you get your

vaccines, then your kids will be good to go, but we know that is not

true. Kids get sick all the time with all kinds of things whether

they are vaxed or not. Such is life. Not sure if that makes sense.

Unvaxed children can get sick too and this is not neccessarilly a

bad thing. Your children's immune system needs to encounter these

things so that it can get practice taking care of them. By using

natural means and basically allowing the body to heal itself, it

will be much better off in the long run.

If you are having doubts, to me, that just means you need to read

more and you have not come across the right information. The

information that changed my mind for good was the info about the

immune system and how it works. And then seeing how vaccines work.

You will find that all the vaccine was created to do was to make

antibodies. We know that there is more to the immune system then

antibodies and that antibodies alone will not protect you from

getting these diseases. There have been people with very high

levels of antibodies who still got sick and those with no antibodies

who did not get sick when exposed. There is alot to be learned in

the area, so I would suggest that you spend some time researching

this type of info.

Tara

[Guest guest]

if they are vaccinated it is a sure thing they will get SICK sooner !

no immunity at all in any vaccination!!

roger

Tara Maue <orrin_reilly@...> wrote:

One thing most people don't think about is that there tons of

sicknesses our kids can get get, and these vaccines only cover a

very small amount of those. Therefore, your children are vulnerable

to all of the other things that are not vaccinated for (and really

they are still vulnerable to the ones that you do vax for). So, by

vaxing, you are really not saving your children from getting

sicknesses. Trying to cut out a few sicknesses is really not going

to put a dent in whether they get sick from something that could

cause them a complication. They make it sound like if you get your

vaccines, then your kids will be good to go, but we know that is not

true. Kids get sick all the time with all kinds of things whether

they are vaxed or not. Such is life. Not sure if that makes sense.

Unvaxed children can get sick too and this is not neccessarilly a

bad thing. Your children's immune system needs to encounter these

things so that it can get practice taking care of them. By using

natural means and basically allowing the body to heal itself, it

will be much better off in the long run.

If you are having doubts, to me, that just means you need to read

more and you have not come across the right information. The

information that changed my mind for good was the info about the

immune system and how it works. And then seeing how vaccines work.

You will find that all the vaccine was created to do was to make

antibodies. We know that there is more to the immune system then

antibodies and that antibodies alone will not protect you from

getting these diseases. There have been people with very high

levels of antibodies who still got sick and those with no antibodies

who did not get sick when exposed. There is alot to be learned in

the area, so I would suggest that you spend some time researching

this type of info.

Tara

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

My kids are out and about as much as the rest of them. My oldest got shots up

to 2 years, and my youngest never. Neither of them get sick much. Maybe once a

year my 9 year old may have to have a day off school. And my 3 year old has the

occasional day where she may sleep all day, possibly throw up, and get a temp.

There are many times that us adults in the house catch something, and the kids

don't.

Like Tara said, kids are exposed to way more than just those diseases vaccinated

for. Living on acreage, and having a number of animals, domestic and wild, they

are exposed to plenty of germs too. In my opinion, my children have way better

immune systems because of it. I feel confident that they will continue to

strengthen, each and every time they are exposed to something that stimulates an

immune response.

It took me a period of about 8 months on another list, similar to this, before I

was completely sure vaccination was a bad thing. It took me very little time to

at least stop and do more research. Reading the actual ingredient lists got me

over the line. I KNOW these toxins are deadly to us. It is only logical they

will damage our immune systems. Mercury and aluminium are neurotoxins for

instance. And we have massive epidemics of neurological disorders. Ok, so

nobody has " proven " that it is without a doubt the cause of these disorders.

But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the connection. I don't care what

pro vaxers say. I will err on the side of caution thanks, and go with what

works for me.

The main question I asked when I first discovered the ingredients and side

effects, was, " why didn't the doctor mention these things " . I didn't put much

faith in doctors anyway, but this destroyed any trust I may have had.

I remember my feelings about doctors in my late teens early 20s. When I got

sick, and someone said, " go see a doctor " , I would say, " whats the point. " " All

they will do is ask ME what is wrong and tell me to take a panadol. Don't have

to pay someone for that. "

Of course, our family don't have any major illnesses to deal with, so only have

to contend with acutes. I believe our families genetics have much to do with it

too. And healthy sunlight, water and clean air. None of us have grown up in or

near a city.

Fieldman

Starting to have doubts

I'm really starting to question my decision not to vaccinate my

daughter. I'm living in fear almost everyday of her contracting a VPD.

I would like to selectively vax, but then I can't claim an exemption

for school.

It seems like a lot of mothers on this board are able to stay home,

and therefore limit their child's exposure to the outside. I work full-

time, my daughter is in a home daycare, and I really take my daughter

everywhere with me, even if there are crowds. I pump breastmilk for

daycare, and breastfeed at home. I'm not the healthiest eater either.

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[Guest guest]

Great points, Tara!

Winnie

Re: Starting to have doubts

Vaccinations

> One thing most people don't think about is that there tons of

> sicknesses our kids can get get, and these vaccines only cover a

> very small amount of those. Therefore, your children are

> vulnerable

> to all of the other things that are not vaccinated for (and

> really

> they are still vulnerable to the ones that you do vax for). So,

> by

> vaxing, you are really not saving your children from getting

> sicknesses. Trying to cut out a few sicknesses is really not

> going

> to put a dent in whether they get sick from something that could

> cause them a complication. They make it sound like if you get

> your

> vaccines, then your kids will be good to go, but we know that is

> not

> true. Kids get sick all the time with all kinds of things

> whether

> they are vaxed or not. Such is life. Not sure if that makes sense.

>

> Unvaxed children can get sick too and this is not neccessarilly

> a

> bad thing. Your children's immune system needs to encounter

> these

> things so that it can get practice taking care of them. By

> using

> natural means and basically allowing the body to heal itself, it

> will be much better off in the long run.

>

> If you are having doubts, to me, that just means you need to

> read

> more and you have not come across the right information. The

> information that changed my mind for good was the info about the

> immune system and how it works. And then seeing how vaccines

> work.

> You will find that all the vaccine was created to do was to make

> antibodies. We know that there is more to the immune system

> then

> antibodies and that antibodies alone will not protect you from

> getting these diseases. There have been people with very high

> levels of antibodies who still got sick and those with no

> antibodies

> who did not get sick when exposed. There is alot to be learned

> in

> the area, so I would suggest that you spend some time

> researching

> this type of info.

>

> Tara

>

>

[Guest guest]

Having the basic childhood diseases along with a good diet is the best

thing you can do for anyone's immune system.

Vaccines do not create immunity, instead they create chronic disease and

prevent the body from exhibiting a normal immune response when exposed

to an illness.

RRM wrote:

>

> if they are vaccinated it is a sure thing they will get SICK sooner !

> no immunity at all in any vaccination!!

>

> roger

>

> Tara Maue <orrin_reilly@... <mailto:orrin_reilly%40>>

> wrote:

> One thing most people don't think about is that there tons of

> sicknesses our kids can get get, and these vaccines only cover a

> very small amount of those. Therefore, your children are vulnerable

> to all of the other things that are not vaccinated for (and really

> they are still vulnerable to the ones that you do vax for). So, by

> vaxing, you are really not saving your children from getting

> sicknesses. Trying to cut out a few sicknesses is really not going

> to put a dent in whether they get sick from something that could

> cause them a complication. They make it sound like if you get your

> vaccines, then your kids will be good to go, but we know that is not

> true. Kids get sick all the time with all kinds of things whether

> they are vaxed or not. Such is life. Not sure if that makes sense.

>

> Unvaxed children can get sick too and this is not neccessarilly a

> bad thing. Your children's immune system needs to encounter these

> things so that it can get practice taking care of them. By using

> natural means and basically allowing the body to heal itself, it

> will be much better off in the long run.

>

> If you are having doubts, to me, that just means you need to read

> more and you have not come across the right information. The

> information that changed my mind for good was the info about the

> immune system and how it works. And then seeing how vaccines work.

> You will find that all the vaccine was created to do was to make

> antibodies. We know that there is more to the immune system then

> antibodies and that antibodies alone will not protect you from

> getting these diseases. There have been people with very high

> levels of antibodies who still got sick and those with no antibodies

> who did not get sick when exposed. There is alot to be learned in

> the area, so I would suggest that you spend some time researching

> this type of info.

>

> Tara

>

> ---------------------------------

> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try

> it now.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I work part time and stay at home the rest of the time. My daughter

isn't in day care but I take her everywhere. I too still find myself

questioning if I'm doing the right thing but then I do more research

and absolutely cannot bring myself to inject formaldehyde, aluminum,

mercury, etc. into her. I had to switch her doctor because the old one

was threatening us and our new doc said that it's our decision and

most of the vaxxes now are for things that aren't even around anymore,

or very rare. Plus he said that vaxxes don't " protect " like you think

they do so he reassured my fears. Along with everyone on this list.

It's a scary thing to know (or not know) what is the right thing to do

for your child but go with your gut instincts. We have decided that

not vaxxing is the right thing to do for our daughter and the more

research that you do, you may feel the same way. They are VERY scary

things once you start reading about them. Good Luck in your decision!

>

> I'm really starting to question my decision not to vaccinate my

> daughter. I'm living in fear almost everyday of her contracting a VPD.

> I would like to selectively vax, but then I can't claim an exemption

> for school.

>

> It seems like a lot of mothers on this board are able to stay home,

> and therefore limit their child's exposure to the outside. I work full-

> time, my daughter is in a home daycare, and I really take my daughter

> everywhere with me, even if there are crowds. I pump breastmilk for

> daycare, and breastfeed at home. I'm not the healthiest eater either.

> I like to drink coke everyday, and have a cheeseburger and pizza every

> now and then. I guess what I'm trying to say is that my lifestyle

> doesn't fit the standards that some non-vaxer families are setting.

>

> Hib scares me the most. I want to give my daughter that vaccine, and

> then hold off on the rest of the vaccines until she is older. If

> anyone has any personal stories like mine, please share. I don't want

> to make a mistake here. However, almost nine months of researching

> vaccines and I still don't feel comfortable with my decision.

>

[Guest guest]

I hate to here posts of Dr.'s that take men off TRT to do labs. You can't do

this when you go on TRT you shut down you brains sending the LH and FSH messages

to your testis to make more Testosterone.

Just look at your labs your FSH is at the bottom of the range like you were on

TRT this is what men get when doing gels or shots and test this on them.

LH fires on and off fast FSH tells the story now lets look at your Free T it's

at the bottom of the range and normal for a men over 80 yrs of age. Your

Testosterone is mid range not sure about them labs can convert them in to my

units.

Your Dr. should have tested your SHBG and your Estradiol levels with out them we

know nothing.

Free T is not a good measure for Testosterone it is only 2% of all the

testosterone in your body.

Being mid range in my units is still low it's about 400. How do you feel off

the gel other then your wood.

I feel now your off TRT try to get some thing to bring down your Estradiol

levels like DIM as you get this down your wood will come back and your SHBG will

come down unbinding your Free T so they will go higher try this see how you do.

DIM is sold OTC so try this see if you don't feel better and get your sex life

back.

http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-Pure-Rip-with-DIM-60-Tablets/12814?at=0

Take one a day with dinner and when your wood wakes you up your levels are down.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: <ryanrettell@...>

> Subject: Starting to have doubts

>

> Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 2:18 PM

> Hi all, 29 year old male here.

>

> Ive posted before but thought I would create a new thread.

> I just got my latest lab results. After being off Androgel

> for 5 weeks, my current doc (3rd now) tested more than Ive

> had tested before but still wouldnt do all the tests I

> needed done. Here they are:

>

> FSH           

> 5.3           

> 4.54 - 22.51 mIU/ML

>

> Prolactin       

> 10.75       

>     2.64 – 13.13 ng/ml

>

> Testosterone       

> 5.83           

> 1.75 – 7.81 NG/ML

>

> LH           

> 5.9           

> 1.5 – 9.3 mIU/mL

>

> Test, Free(Direct)    12   

>         9.3 – 26.5 PG/ML

>

> They were drawn at 11 am.

>

>

> I had to call the office 3 times and finally got a hold of

> a nurse who told me that since my free testosterone was

> normal, to just stay off Androgel for 3 months and get more

> labs done in 3 months. What I dont get is that before my

> family doc started me on Androgel my free T was barely in

> range I think at 9.7, then after 4 months of being on it,

> doc #2 tested and it came back 12.4

>

> Here is where the doubts come in. Maybe my problems arent

> related to testosterone. I dont really have all the

> symptoms. Im not really fatigued, my muscle mass isnt that

> bad. But I do have really low libido, difficulty

> concentration, occasional emotional problems, ED (difficult

> to get an erection and when I do, without stimulation its

> gone in like 30 seconds) Another thing, I tried viagra when

> I was on Androgel and it worked great. Now that im off it,

> viagra didnt do anything.

>

> Something I noticed too is that when I was on Androgel I

> pretty much had morning erections every day. Now that I went

> off it, I never have any. So, my only hope now is that

> whenever I find a doctor who will treat the patient and not

> the labs, they will get my Estradiol checked and it will be

> off. Maybe thats whats wrong with me.

>

> On monday im going to call a compounding pharmacy in

> Charlotte to get some recommendations. I tried one where I

> live (thanks to the advice of Phil) and they didnt know of

> any docs locally who used HCG or Arimidex, etc. to treat

> hypogonadism. He suggested I try a bigger city a little

> farther away. And I guess if that doctor doesn't do what I

> want, I guess I will have to travel farther north to get

> some help.

>

> Anyway, Thanks for listening.

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't see an E2 test in the mix or SHBG.

They could provide more info.

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:18:56 -0000, you wrote:

>Hi all, 29 year old male here.

>

>Ive posted before but thought I would create a new thread. I just got my latest

lab results. After being off Androgel for 5 weeks, my current doc (3rd now)

tested more than Ive had tested before but still wouldnt do all the tests I

needed done. Here they are:

>

>FSH 5.3 4.54 - 22.51 mIU/ML

>

>Prolactin 10.75 2.64 – 13.13 ng/ml

>

>Testosterone 5.83 1.75 – 7.81 NG/ML

>

>LH 5.9 1.5 – 9.3 mIU/mL

>

>Test, Free(Direct) 12 9.3 – 26.5 PG/ML

>

>They were drawn at 11 am.

>

>

>I had to call the office 3 times and finally got a hold of a nurse who told me

that since my free testosterone was normal, to just stay off Androgel for 3

months and get more labs done in 3 months. What I dont get is that before my

family doc started me on Androgel my free T was barely in range I think at 9.7,

then after 4 months of being on it, doc #2 tested and it came back 12.4

>

>Here is where the doubts come in. Maybe my problems arent related to

testosterone. I dont really have all the symptoms. Im not really fatigued, my

muscle mass isnt that bad. But I do have really low libido, difficulty

concentration, occasional emotional problems, ED (difficult to get an erection

and when I do, without stimulation its gone in like 30 seconds) Another thing, I

tried viagra when I was on Androgel and it worked great. Now that im off it,

viagra didnt do anything.

>

>Something I noticed too is that when I was on Androgel I pretty much had

morning erections every day. Now that I went off it, I never have any. So, my

only hope now is that whenever I find a doctor who will treat the patient and

not the labs, they will get my Estradiol checked and it will be off. Maybe thats

whats wrong with me.

>

>On monday im going to call a compounding pharmacy in Charlotte to get some

recommendations. I tried one where I live (thanks to the advice of Phil) and

they didnt know of any docs locally who used HCG or Arimidex, etc. to treat

hypogonadism. He suggested I try a bigger city a little farther away. And I

guess if that doctor doesn't do what I want, I guess I will have to travel

farther north to get some help.

>

>Anyway, Thanks for listening.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have to say that I think the free test level is very important and is

overlooked by many doctors. In my opinion, and from what I have learned, it's

the free test level that is important, and the total level that really isn't

very important. A high level of bound testosterone does nothing for you.

I haven't been able to find a TRT " expert " in my area, but at least I have found

a doctor willing to work with me, and open to things like Arimidex. As such I

need to make sure I know what is best for me to work with my doctor in that

direction.

bjesplin

>

> > From: <ryanrettell@...>

> > Subject: Starting to have doubts

> >

> > Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 2:18 PM

> > Hi all, 29 year old male here.

> >

> > Ive posted before but thought I would create a new thread.

> > I just got my latest lab results. After being off Androgel

> > for 5 weeks, my current doc (3rd now) tested more than Ive

> > had tested before but still wouldnt do all the tests I

> > needed done. Here they are:

> >

> > FSH           

> > 5.3           

> > 4.54 - 22.51 mIU/ML

> >

> > Prolactin       

> > 10.75       

> >     2.64 †" 13.13 ng/ml

> >

> > Testosterone       

> > 5.83           

> > 1.75 †" 7.81 NG/ML

> >

> > LH           

> > 5.9           

> > 1.5 †" 9.3 mIU/mL

> >

> > Test, Free(Direct)    12   

> >         9.3 †" 26.5 PG/ML

> >

> > They were drawn at 11 am.

> >

> >

> > I had to call the office 3 times and finally got a hold of

> > a nurse who told me that since my free testosterone was

> > normal, to just stay off Androgel for 3 months and get more

> > labs done in 3 months. What I dont get is that before my

> > family doc started me on Androgel my free T was barely in

> > range I think at 9.7, then after 4 months of being on it,

> > doc #2 tested and it came back 12.4

> >

> > Here is where the doubts come in. Maybe my problems arent

> > related to testosterone. I dont really have all the

> > symptoms. Im not really fatigued, my muscle mass isnt that

> > bad. But I do have really low libido, difficulty

> > concentration, occasional emotional problems, ED (difficult

> > to get an erection and when I do, without stimulation its

> > gone in like 30 seconds) Another thing, I tried viagra when

> > I was on Androgel and it worked great. Now that im off it,

> > viagra didnt do anything.

> >

> > Something I noticed too is that when I was on Androgel I

> > pretty much had morning erections every day. Now that I went

> > off it, I never have any. So, my only hope now is that

> > whenever I find a doctor who will treat the patient and not

> > the labs, they will get my Estradiol checked and it will be

> > off. Maybe thats whats wrong with me.

> >

> > On monday im going to call a compounding pharmacy in

> > Charlotte to get some recommendations. I tried one where I

> > live (thanks to the advice of Phil) and they didnt know of

> > any docs locally who used HCG or Arimidex, etc. to treat

> > hypogonadism. He suggested I try a bigger city a little

> > farther away. And I guess if that doctor doesn't do what I

> > want, I guess I will have to travel farther north to get

> > some help.

> >

> > Anyway, Thanks for listening.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Many of the learned individuals on these boards believe that the BAT assay is

the best, and that Quest has the best BAT assay. Some others believe that

having Total T and SBHG measured together are a better measure. I have not seen

anyone else suggest that free T is a meaningful result/lab calculation.

--- esplinbj <no_reply@...> wrote:

> I have to say that I think the free test level is very important and is

overlooked by many doctors. In my opinion, and from what I have learned, it's

the free test level that is important, and the total level that really isn't

very important. A high level of bound testosterone does nothing for you.

[Guest guest]

I don't know what BAT stands for, please explain. I agree that the methods for

calculating free test are probably not very accurate. For this reason I would

prefer to have saliva hormone testing. Many " experts " think saliva tests are

best for measuring free and available hormone levels. I know that the " experts "

here don't agree with this, but when you study the topic there are very

compelling reasons to prefer saliva testing.

Wheather or not you believe in the accruacy of a free test level calculation,

the fact that it is the free testosterone that is usable in your body, not the

bound portion cannot be disputed. Search all over the web and you will find the

" experts " saying you should test for free testosterone levels. The free test

level is the most meaningful result, provided it is done accurately.

bjesplin

>

> > I have to say that I think the free test level is very important and is

overlooked by many doctors. In my opinion, and from what I have learned, it's

the free test level that is important, and the total level that really isn't

very important. A high level of bound testosterone does nothing for you.

>

[Guest guest]

BAT is shorthand for bioavailable testosterone. Here is a relatively good

explaination:

Testosterone is present in the blood as " free " testosterone (1-4%) or bound

testosterone. The latter may be loosely bound to albumin, a serum protein, or

bound to a specific binding protein called Sex Steroid Binding Globulin (SSBG)

or Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG). The binding between testosterone and

albumin is not very strong and is easily reversed; so the term bioavailable

testosterone (BAT) refers to the sum of free testosterone plus albumin-bound

testosterone. Alternatively, it is the fraction of circulating testosterone that

is not bound to SHBG. It is suggested that BAT represents the fraction of

circulating testosterone that readily enters cells and better reflects the

bioactivity of testosterone than does the simple measurement of serum total

testosterone. Also, varying levels of SHBG can result in inaccurate measurements

of BAT. Decreased SHBG levels can be seen in obesity, hypothyroidism, androgen

use, and nephritic syndrome. Increased levels are seen in cirrhosis,

hyperthyroidism, and estrogen use. In these situations, measurement of free

testosterone may be more useful. However, technically, free testosterone is

difficult to measure accurately.

> >

> > > I have to say that I think the free test level is very important and is

overlooked by many doctors. In my opinion, and from what I have learned, it's

the free test level that is important, and the total level that really isn't

very important. A high level of bound testosterone does nothing for you.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I understand bioavailable testosterone, I've just never seen it called BAT.

> > >

> > > > I have to say that I think the free test level is very important and is

overlooked by many doctors. In my opinion, and from what I have learned, it's

the free test level that is important, and the total level that really isn't

very important. A high level of bound testosterone does nothing for you.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Latest issue of the LEF magazine has a reference to the anti-aging site

worldhealth.net. There you will find references to doctors who deal in that

field - SHOULD be better that flipping a coin.

http://www.worldhealth.net/pages/directory/?category=5 & state=NC & country=US & find=\

Find

[Guest guest]

cool, thanks!

>

> Latest issue of the LEF magazine has a reference to the anti-aging site

worldhealth.net. There you will find references to doctors who deal in that

field - SHOULD be better that flipping a coin.

>

>

http://www.worldhealth.net/pages/directory/?category=5 & state=NC & country=US & find=\

Find

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info, whenever I find a new doc I will get him/her to check my

SHBG and your Estradiol levels for sure.

Being off the gel Ive had bad days and most days are just ok. Every once in a

while I get the urge to cry for no reason and then im fine. Also, sometimes im

quicker to get agitated.

I will order some of that stuff right away and try it out. But, won't that

affect my labs whenever I do get them done? Oh, and do they sell it just online

or can I go to GNC or like a VitaminShoppe (both have stores locally where I

live)

>

> > From: <ryanrettell@...>

> > Subject: Starting to have doubts

> >

> > Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 2:18 PM

> > Hi all, 29 year old male here.

> >

> > Ive posted before but thought I would create a new thread.

> > I just got my latest lab results. After being off Androgel

> > for 5 weeks, my current doc (3rd now) tested more than Ive

> > had tested before but still wouldnt do all the tests I

> > needed done. Here they are:

> >

> > FSH           

> > 5.3           

> > 4.54 - 22.51 mIU/ML

> >

> > Prolactin       

> > 10.75       

> >     2.64 †" 13.13 ng/ml

> >

> > Testosterone       

> > 5.83           

> > 1.75 †" 7.81 NG/ML

> >

> > LH           

> > 5.9           

> > 1.5 †" 9.3 mIU/mL

> >

> > Test, Free(Direct)    12   

> >         9.3 †" 26.5 PG/ML

> >

> > They were drawn at 11 am.

> >

> >

> > I had to call the office 3 times and finally got a hold of

> > a nurse who told me that since my free testosterone was

> > normal, to just stay off Androgel for 3 months and get more

> > labs done in 3 months. What I dont get is that before my

> > family doc started me on Androgel my free T was barely in

> > range I think at 9.7, then after 4 months of being on it,

> > doc #2 tested and it came back 12.4

> >

> > Here is where the doubts come in. Maybe my problems arent

> > related to testosterone. I dont really have all the

> > symptoms. Im not really fatigued, my muscle mass isnt that

> > bad. But I do have really low libido, difficulty

> > concentration, occasional emotional problems, ED (difficult

> > to get an erection and when I do, without stimulation its

> > gone in like 30 seconds) Another thing, I tried viagra when

> > I was on Androgel and it worked great. Now that im off it,

> > viagra didnt do anything.

> >

> > Something I noticed too is that when I was on Androgel I

> > pretty much had morning erections every day. Now that I went

> > off it, I never have any. So, my only hope now is that

> > whenever I find a doctor who will treat the patient and not

> > the labs, they will get my Estradiol checked and it will be

> > off. Maybe thats whats wrong with me.

> >

> > On monday im going to call a compounding pharmacy in

> > Charlotte to get some recommendations. I tried one where I

> > live (thanks to the advice of Phil) and they didnt know of

> > any docs locally who used HCG or Arimidex, etc. to treat

> > hypogonadism. He suggested I try a bigger city a little

> > farther away. And I guess if that doctor doesn't do what I

> > want, I guess I will have to travel farther north to get

> > some help.

> >

> > Anyway, Thanks for listening.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Oops, forgot to ask. How long after I start taking the DIM would I notice if its

going to have any effect?