Re: Diagnosed w/Secondary Hypogonadism and endo is clueless. Help!

[Guest guest]

Hi anthonyjd2 and Welcome,

You need your Estradiol levels tested it sure looks to me like you damaged your

Pituitary I did from a head injury. One needs to have all there Hormones looked

at with this problem. I treat my low Testosterone, Thyroid, Cortisol, Iron,

Aldosterone and Growth Hormones it's called Hypopituitary. And I take HCG to

keep my testis working and my LH cells in my testis body and brain working. I

also take Arimidex to keep my Estradiol levels down men on TRT have higher

levels you sound like yours are high.

You need to shower before going to bed with your women or the Gel will get on

her dry or not and make her hormones go nuts. If you put the gel on in the

morning shower at bed time then when you get up just put it on again. On testim

you need to spread it over your upper arms and shoulders and down your back as

far as you can reach then rub it in well. Do both sides most men need 10 grams

to get good levels.

I don't like Endo's for low T they just don't know enough about this problem.

Your best bet would be to drive to MI. see Dr. all he needs is to see you

once then the rest he can do by phone or find a Dr. that will work with him

over the phone.

www.allthingsmale.com

Here is a link to a closed forum that helped me when I found out it was my

Pituitary most everything I know about this problme I learned here read it all.

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewforum.php?f=12 & sid=63293ce1a6190ba5aa77b6f\

8be5c8e10

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: anthonyjd2 <anthonyjd2@...>

> Subject: Diagnosed w/Secondary Hypogonadism and endo is

clueless. Help!

>

> Date: Friday, June 25, 2010, 4:11 PM

> I'm not sure where to begin... first

> off its good to know this group exists and I can finally get

> some answers from good people in the know.  I'm pretty

> scared because my endo is clueless and closed minded. 

> In July of 2009 I was involved in an ATV accident that

> almost ended my life.  I broke my face, eye socket, and

> many other bones.  I was in the hospital for a month

> and for some reason one of the doctors wanted to test my

> testosterone levels, I have no idea why.  Sure enough

> they were really low so he gave me an injection

> (testosterone enanthate?)  Then a few months after

> leaving the hospital I realized something was wrong, I had

> no libido, I would cry all the time, etc.  I asked my

> primary for a blood test and my T levels were still really

> low (Total: 130 I think).  He sent me to an

> endocrinologist and she ordered some blood tests and an MRI

> on my head.  She prescribed Testim 1% before any of the

> results came back!  I'll admit I was really ignorant to

> just start using it but I was desperate for relief. 

> The MRI showed tiny blood clots around my pituitary and the

> blood work showed as follows:

>

> Reproductive Hormones

> FSH   2.1 mIU/ml  Ref. range: 1.4-18.1

> LH    2.6 mIU/ml  Ref. range: 1.5-9.3

>

> Thyroids

> TSH   2.500 uIU/ml  Ref. range:

> .350-5.500

>

> I'm sorry I don't have my T levels for that time but they

> were substantially lower than the reference range.  She

> never checked my estradiol levels.  While on the Testim

> my T levels went way up (730 I think) and I was feeling ok

> but very little libido.  Then I wanted to try the

> androderm patch for the convenience and my T levels dropped

> into the 400 range, still no libido.  Due to insurance

> reasons I had to go on testosterone enanthate IM every other

> week.  After the first injection I got super depressed.

> I told my endo but she said its not the injection thats

> causing it.  After a few more doses I got really

> depressed... suicidal to be accurate.  I discontinued

> the testosterone enanthate and felt SOOO much better, but

> still no libido and I got hot flashes.  I got back on

> Testim 1% but I'm starting to get a little depressed (also

> poor memory and fatigue).  Could this be from elevated

> estradiol levels?  Should I even have started TRT? And

> where can I find a doctor that is qualified to treat me in

> the central New York area?  This is really scaring the

> hell out of me!  I'm starting to wonder if I should

> have even started TRT!  She told me I can have kids on

> Testim if I " see a specialist " and that when its dry it

> won't spread to my girlfriend!  I don't think she

> should be allowed to prescribe aspirin.  Just so you

> guys know I'm also on methadone and Kadian for pain.  I

> was in a wreck, now I am one lol. please help!

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Your Endo is wrong!, It is the testosterone enanthate injection that is

causing it though indirectly.

Your hot flashes may have been falling estradiol which would happen after

you discontinued TRT.

For me at least I have found that high estradiol is as much if not more of a

problem than low T itself. When estradiol is up I get really emotional and

want to cry over anything happy or sad. Think PMS for men! I have found

that taking this Indolplex DIM

http://www.vitacost.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-Pure-Rip-with-DIM-Mens-Health

twice a day keeps my estradiol down enough that I am not getting so

emotional. I would recommend this for anyone whether you are on TRT or not.

As Phil can explain better than me your brain can't tell the difference

between Estradiol or Testosterone so taking this may help your natural T

level go up.

If your Doctor that ordered your T test in the hospital saw you being

overly crying or emotional that may be the reason he suspected your T level

being low. Trouble is most docs are still trying to dose men with this

unworkable 2-3 week dosing and if your like me all that does is run up your

estradiol and after a few days the T is gone down to levels that aren't

going to help you but the estradiol has been driven way up and this just

leaves you crying all over your self and unable to function and worse off

than before you did anything. And yes it can make you thinking about

suicide. You feel so miserable and you don't know what is happing to you.

I thought I was lousing my mind. Once I even checked myself in to a mental

health hospital. Big mistake, but that is another story. Now you know

your not going crazy. It is just hormone fluctuation doing this to you

albeit with the help of some doctors that perhaps didn't fully understand

what they were doing.

Brett - been there!

Lived to tell about it.

Diagnosed w/Secondary Hypogonadism and endo is

clueless. Help!

> I'm not sure where to begin... first off its good to know this group

> exists and I can finally get some answers from good people in the know.

> I'm pretty scared because my endo is clueless and closed minded. In July

> of 2009 I was involved in an ATV accident that almost ended my life. I

> broke my face, eye socket, and many other bones. I was in the hospital

> for a month and for some reason one of the doctors wanted to test my

> testosterone levels, I have no idea why. Sure enough they were really low

> so he gave me an injection (testosterone enanthate?) Then a few months

> after leaving the hospital I realized something was wrong, I had no

> libido, I would cry all the time, etc. I asked my primary for a blood

> test and my T levels were still really low (Total: 130 I think). He sent

> me to an endocrinologist and she ordered some blood tests and an MRI on my

> head. She prescribed Testim 1% before any of the results came back! I'll

> admit I was really ignorant to just start using it but I was desperate for

> relief. The MRI showed tiny blood clots around my pituitary and the blood

> work showed as follows:

>

> Reproductive Hormones

> FSH 2.1 mIU/ml Ref. range: 1.4-18.1

> LH 2.6 mIU/ml Ref. range: 1.5-9.3

>

> Thyroids

> TSH 2.500 uIU/ml Ref. range: .350-5.500

>

> I'm sorry I don't have my T levels for that time but they were

> substantially lower than the reference range. She never checked my

> estradiol levels. While on the Testim my T levels went way up (730 I

> think) and I was feeling ok but very little libido. Then I wanted to try

> the androderm patch for the convenience and my T levels dropped into the

> 400 range, still no libido. Due to insurance reasons I had to go on

> testosterone enanthate IM every other week. After the first injection I

> got super depressed. I told my endo but she said its not the injection

> thats causing it. After a few more doses I got really depressed...

> suicidal to be accurate. I discontinued the testosterone enanthate and

> felt SOOO much better, but still no libido and I got hot flashes. I got

> back on Testim 1% but I'm starting to get a little depressed (also poor

> memory and fatigue). Could this be from elevated estradiol levels?

> Should I even have started TRT? And where can I find a doctor that is

> qualified to treat me in the central New York area? This is really

> scaring the hell out of me! I'm starting to wonder if I should have even

> started TRT! She told me I can have kids on Testim if I " see a

> specialist " and that when its dry it won't spread to my girlfriend! I

> don't think she should be allowed to prescribe aspirin. Just so you guys

> know I'm also on methadone and Kadian for pain. I was in a wreck, now I

> am one lol. please help!

[Guest guest]

Hey thanks for the responses guys. I feel better just knowing I'm not alone!

By the sounds of things I should get in to see Dr. Crisler. Just don't

have the funds for the consult. I was hoping so badly that my current

depression was caused by high E2 but my results came back " normal. " The nurse

told me over the phone it was 24, I forgot to ask her the units. I still

ordered some Indolplex with DIM and I've been taking ZMA for 3 days now. Maybe

my body just likes a lower E2 than " normal " ? Or could the test have been

mistaken? Phil, I don't get morning wood but I did in the beginning of

treatment.

What else could be causing my depression thats related to TRT? It all started a

few months after starting TRT. Now my Endo is saying I can titrate off Testim

and that I just needed it temporarily due to high stress from the accident. I

don't know what the hell to think now. She is very defensive and doesn't think

highly of forums on the internet or my opinions for that matter!

I know I have a lot of questions but this is destroying my life and I would be

grateful for the help!

[Guest guest]

,

Just tell you endo if she were doing a better job you wouldn't need to

be looking on the internet trying to figure out what was the mater with you!

Brett

Re: Diagnosed w/Secondary Hypogonadism and endo is

clueless. Help!

> Hey thanks for the responses guys. I feel better just knowing I'm not

> alone! By the sounds of things I should get in to see Dr. Crisler.

> Just don't have the funds for the consult. I was hoping so badly that my

> current depression was caused by high E2 but my results came back

> " normal. " The nurse told me over the phone it was 24, I forgot to ask her

> the units. I still ordered some Indolplex with DIM and I've been taking

> ZMA for 3 days now. Maybe my body just likes a lower E2 than " normal " ?

> Or could the test have been mistaken? Phil, I don't get morning wood but

> I did in the beginning of treatment.

>

> What else could be causing my depression thats related to TRT? It all

> started a few months after starting TRT. Now my Endo is saying I can

> titrate off Testim and that I just needed it temporarily due to high

> stress from the accident. I don't know what the hell to think now. She

> is very defensive and doesn't think highly of forums on the internet or my

> opinions for that matter!

>

> I know I have a lot of questions but this is destroying my life and I

> would be grateful for the help!

>

>

[Guest guest]

Great answer Brett!

________________________________

From: Brett Savage <brshop@...>

Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 1:35:47 AM

Subject: Re: Diagnosed w/Secondary Hypogonadism and endo is

clueless. Help!

 

,

Just tell you endo if she were doing a better job you wouldn't need to

be looking on the internet trying to figure out what was the mater with you!

Brett

Re: Diagnosed w/Secondary Hypogonadism and endo is

clueless. Help!

> Hey thanks for the responses guys. I feel better just knowing I'm not

> alone! By the sounds of things I should get in to see Dr. Crisler.

> Just don't have the funds for the consult. I was hoping so badly that my

> current depression was caused by high E2 but my results came back

> " normal. " The nurse told me over the phone it was 24, I forgot to ask her

> the units. I still ordered some Indolplex with DIM and I've been taking

> ZMA for 3 days now. Maybe my body just likes a lower E2 than " normal " ?

> Or could the test have been mistaken? Phil, I don't get morning wood but

> I did in the beginning of treatment.

>

> What else could be causing my depression thats related to TRT? It all

> started a few months after starting TRT. Now my Endo is saying I can

> titrate off Testim and that I just needed it temporarily due to high

> stress from the accident. I don't know what the hell to think now. She

> is very defensive and doesn't think highly of forums on the internet or my

> opinions for that matter!

>

> I know I have a lot of questions but this is destroying my life and I

> would be grateful for the help!

>

>

[Guest guest]

you need to run from this Endo they are just not good Dr.'s for this

problem. If you had night time and morning wood when you started on TRT then it

stopped were you on the DIM when this happened if so stop taking it until your

wood comes back as for your feeling of Depression going on Testim yes this

happens most Dr.'s start men on a starting does 5 grams Endo's are known to

start men at a lower dose 2.5 grams and this is nuts.

When you add any kind of Testosterone to your body your brain sees it and stops

or slows down sending the LH and FSH message from your brain that tells your

Testis to make Testosterone. So lets say your base line levels before TRT were

350 and you go on 5 grams of Testim now your brain sees this and stops making

your base line 350 level. Now lets say this starting dose is not enough and all

it's doing is getting your levels up to 300 now your lower then you started and

your going to feel like crap.

This is why I tell men going on gels to test in 2 weeks to be sure the gel is

working. Some men that have a Thyroid problem have a thicker skin and the gels

can't get through there skin so there levels don't go up but there brain still

sees some in your blood and you end up lower then you started.

You can't go on Testim or TRT for a short time and stop your going to crash and

feel even worse. You need to get to Dr. by hook or Crook.

Endo's and Uro's are not good Dr.'s for this problem. And if you can post your

labs I don't remember seeing them I talk to so many men everyday I can't keep

up. Post your labs with the units and ranges get a copy of all your labs you

have done from now on. Some men if there SHBG is low don't do good with a level

of 24 for Estradiol I have low SHBG 18 and keep my Estradiol at 15 this gives me

strong night time and morning wood.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: anthonyjd2 <anthonyjd2@...>

> Subject: Re: Diagnosed w/Secondary Hypogonadism and endo is

clueless. Help!

>

> Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 11:02 PM

> Hey thanks for the responses

> guys.  I feel better just knowing I'm not alone! 

> By the sounds of things I should get in to see Dr.

> Crisler.  Just don't have the funds for the

> consult.  I was hoping so badly that my current

> depression was caused by high E2 but my results came back

> " normal. "   The nurse told me over the phone it was 24,

> I forgot to ask her the units.  I still ordered some

> Indolplex with DIM and I've been taking ZMA for 3 days

> now.  Maybe my body just likes a lower E2 than

> " normal " ?  Or could the test have been mistaken? 

> Phil, I don't get morning wood but I did in the beginning of

> treatment. 

>

> What else could be causing my depression thats related to

> TRT?  It all started a few months after starting

> TRT.  Now my Endo is saying I can titrate off Testim

> and that I just needed it temporarily due to high stress

> from the accident.  I don't know what the hell to think

> now.  She is very defensive and doesn't think highly of

> forums on the internet or my opinions for that matter!

>

> I know I have a lot of questions but this is destroying my

> life and I would be grateful for the help!

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Brett you are absolutely right. This group is the only source of good info I

have found.

Philip,

My testosterone levels have been in the lower 700's on one 5g tube/day of

Testim 1%. Even though my T has been high my libido sucks. And a few months

after starting TRT I started to get depressed, really bad memory, loss of

interest in things I once loved to do, and anhedonia. I could have swore it was

high E2. I have not taken DIM before but I have it on order. Do you think

Indolplex with DIM will help my depression with my E2 at 24? I have been

wondering about SHBG. If thats outa range could it be causing my depression?

None of my doctors have ever checked for SHBG.

Do you think its possible that I only needed TRT for a short time like my

endo says? I want to believe her because I don't want to be on it.

Phil, you and Brett have been a huge help. I don't know if it will be

possible but I might be able to convince my primary care doctor to order more

tests (I had a hard time convincing him to order E2!). What do you recommend I

have tested to get to the very bottom of this? The only clue I have is that my

depression started when I started testosterone enanthate every two weeks. Now

that I'm on Testim I feel better but only 50% of normal.

Thanks for your help,

[Guest guest]

Did they do the right estradiol test. Men need the E2, sensitive.

I know the lab ran the wrong one on my fiancee even though the sheet said E2,

sensitive. We managed to get them to redo it at their cost.

My fiancee was super depressed until we started to get his estrogen levels down.

This list is a godsave.

Jennie

>

> I was hoping so badly that my current depression was caused by high E2 but my

results came back " normal. " The nurse told me over the phone it was 24, I

forgot to ask her the units. I still ordered some Indolplex with DIM and I've

been taking ZMA for 3 days now. Maybe my body just likes a lower E2 than

" normal " ? Or could the test have been mistaken? Phil, I don't get morning wood

but I did in the beginning of treatment.

>

>

[Guest guest]

it is hard for men to believe your levels are in the 700's on just 5

grams most men are in the 600's on double your dose 10 grams.

But if your not doing your labs the best way you can get untrue readings like

this. You need to get up in the morning wash off the old gel in the shower then

go do your blood labs first then after put on the gel. If you can't do this

shower put on the gel keeping it off the area they take you blood labs from.

Then do your lab later after about 4 to 6 hrs.

If you don't have strong night time and morning wood yes try the DIM even if you

do have good wood try it but if you lose your wood stop the DIM until it comes

back that day go back on it but cut the table in half.

Once one starts on TRT you can't come off it your brain stops sending the LH and

FSH message to your Testis to make Testosterone. You would need to see a dam

good Dr. like Dr. to see if he can get you started again. This is why men

should never go on TRT until they know why they are low. If they find something

that is wrong that made the Testosterone go low. Fix it your levels will come

back up on there own. Going on TRT over 10 days most men end up on it for life.

One more thing if your labs were done right then keep the up like this and in a

short time your going to start to feel better. First we get leveled or what Dr.

calls it being tuned up. Then your body will start to undo any problems

your having from the low Testosterone and little by little your going to feel

better.

Also try adding some HCG 250 IU's every 3 days this will make you feel better.

The other labs you can do are a 4x's in a day Saliva test for your Cortisol

levels and a full panel of Thyroid labs read this link on labs I tell men they

need see if you can get the ones that have not been done. Adding to this list

Total T3 and T4 for thyroid.

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=5 & t=7059

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: anthonyjd2 <anthonyjd2@...>

> Subject: Re: Diagnosed w/Secondary Hypogonadism and endo is

clueless. Help!

>

> Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 11:57 PM

> Brett you are absolutely right. 

> This group is the only source of good info I have

> found. 

>

> Philip,

>

>    My testosterone levels have been in the

> lower 700's on one 5g tube/day of Testim 1%.  Even

> though my T has been high my libido sucks.  And a few

> months after starting TRT I started to get depressed, really

> bad memory, loss of interest in things I once loved to do,

> and anhedonia.  I could have swore it was high

> E2.  I have not taken DIM before but I have it on

> order.  Do you think Indolplex with DIM will help my

> depression with my E2 at 24?  I have been wondering

> about SHBG.  If thats outa range could it be causing my

> depression?  None of my doctors have ever checked for

> SHBG. 

>

>    Do you think its possible that I only

> needed TRT for a short time like my endo says?  I want

> to believe her because I don't want to be on it. 

>

>    Phil, you and Brett have been a huge

> help.  I don't know if it will be possible but I might

> be able to convince my primary care doctor to order more

> tests (I had a hard time convincing him to order E2!). 

> What do you recommend I have tested to get to the very

> bottom of this?  The only clue I have is that my

> depression started when I started testosterone enanthate

> every two weeks.  Now that I'm on Testim I feel better

> but only 50% of normal.

>

> Thanks for your help,

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I will keep that in mind when I get my T levels checked next time. I have

been taking DIM and ZMA for a few days now. I'm feeling better but I don't know

whether to credit the DIM and ZMA for the improvement or the fact that my Endo

is trying to ween me off Testim and I'm down to half a tube per day. I believe

you , my best chance at a restart is Dr. Crisler. If you only have

10 days on TRT before there is no return then how do body builders on steroids

restart? I thought they take much higher levels for a few months.

Jennie,

Thanks for the input. I have rejected the result I got from the lab. I doubt

they ordered the right test. Based on your experience do you think its possible

my E2 levels are actually much higher than the test showed because it was not

the senitive version?

I'm going to continue taking the DIM and ZMA and I will keep you updated on my

progress. Right now I would rate my mood as a 6 out of 10 and my libido as a 3

out of 10.

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

I am not sure how bodybuilders do there PCT or restart I do know a lot

of them end up with Hypogonadism and need to be on TRT for life. Some men are

just lucky they cycle there steroids doing a PCT for restart and get there

levels back up but not as good as it was before doing the stroids. And each

time them men do a cycle they get back but at a lower and lower level until they

need TRT.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: anthonyjd2 <anthonyjd2@...>

> Subject: Re: Diagnosed w/Secondary Hypogonadism and endo is

clueless. Help!

>

> Date: Monday, July 5, 2010, 11:48 PM

> ,

>

>   I will keep that in mind when I get my T levels

> checked next time.  I have been taking DIM and ZMA for

> a few days now.  I'm feeling better but I don't know

> whether to credit the DIM and ZMA for the improvement or the

> fact that my Endo is trying to ween me off Testim and I'm

> down to half a tube per day.  I believe you , my

> best chance at a restart is Dr. Crisler.  If you

> only have 10 days on TRT before there is no return then how

> do body builders on steroids restart?  I thought they

> take much higher levels for a few months.

>

> Jennie,

>

>   Thanks for the input.  I have rejected the

> result I got from the lab.  I doubt they ordered the

> right test.  Based on your experience do you think its

> possible my E2 levels are actually much higher than the test

> showed because it was not the senitive version?

>

>   I'm going to continue taking the DIM and ZMA and I

> will keep you updated on my progress.  Right now I

> would rate my mood as a 6 out of 10 and my libido as a 3 out

> of 10.

>

> Thanks,

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>