herxing

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I am so sorry you are feeling so bad, Flagyl really causes horrific

herxes or so I hear. I stopped my abx this past weekend hoping that I would

stop herxing, I so want to feel good this coming weekend, but each day I

feel so lousy, lots of pain, could be the weather we are having though.

Good idea waiting till your mind is clear to do that brain test, I am

anxious to hear how you made out, Vicki and I had 50-50 test results.

Hugs,

Marta

-----Original Message-----

From: BearyPrety@... <BearyPrety@...>

>

>ahhhh, I got it now. No wonder. I am herxing pretty bad on flagyl these

days

>and just thought that I was seeing double ! LOL

> Thanks for checking it out for me. Haven't done the test yet. I'm waiting

>till I get better. I'll let ya know how I do !!

>'

[Guest guest]

julie,

i just took one pill last night for the very first time and reacted to it. not

real bad but i definitely could tell i had taken something. my chest felt sort

of funny and my bp went up, and i felt very jittery.

i've been on antibiotics for over a year and never felt well the entire time, so

i'm hoping this will work out.

genny (aka geniveve)

[ ] Herxing

Is it possible to herx from a low dose of Resveratrol? I just started it and

at 2caps 2x day, I

had the sharp, pinprick pains coming from my left elbow the other day during a

nap. In the

past, I have associated those pains with lyme bugs leaving my body. I got them

a lot with the

salt/c protocol. I have never had them from my elbows before, but I did have

joint issues in

my elbows and knees all through adolescence, so it makes sense. I am just very

surprised

that a low-ish dose of Resveratrol would do that....? I am not taking any of

the other herbs

yet. Any insight? Thanks,

[Guest guest]

Sounds like you may be taking too much too fast. A great group for info on

samento is  samento    With Samento you may need to start with a

very small dose, dilute even one drop with lots of water and not drink the whole

thing and do this for a few weeks before you add another drop.  I did Samento

when I was first diagnosed and naively worked up to 6 drops within 6 days and

then had the worst herx since I became ill, high fever for two days and then

broke out in 100's of chickenpox type spots all over!  Even though its a natural

treatment, just like artemisia, these herbs are powerful and you need to start

SLOW. 

From: fashion2liveby <fashion2liveby@...>

Subject: [ ] herxing

Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 6:32 AM

Hi,

I am currently taking Samento Tao Free. I have heard really good

things about it. I have been taking it now for about 2 weeks. I have

been feeling really awful. I have alot of the lyme symptoms

back,aching, tired and brain fog. Does any one know if this is normal

and will it go away or should I quit taking the samento.

Thanks,

fashion2liveby

[Guest guest]

Judy, My heart goes out to you and your little boy. I got lyme when I was about

three and i'm now 26 and quite sick. Its been a really long road for me but I

am making improvements. Two things your son really has going for him is his

young age allowing him to recover more quickly, and more importantly, a loving

mother. There will be some bumps in the road ahead i'm sure but you'll both get

through this. It must be amazing to see him smile again!

Thane

P.S..do your messages pop up right after you post them? I posted a response to

Finette and it hasn't appeared. I wrote some comments about herxing I think you

might find interesting.

>

> Hi Thane,

> My son just turned 8 on Sept 25th. The doctor said he contacted Lyme at age 3.

He seemed to be fine,always happy , always smiling, etc, except for leg pains

and intermittent fever until he turned almost 5. That was when all hell broke

loose and he has never been the same. I honestly have not even seen him smile

since than. My husband and I always ask where our happy little boy went and have

longed to have him back.

>

> Since Friday morning, he IS back and we'll take it, for however long it

lasts!!!!!!!!!!

> thansk so much  for your insight!

> Hugs

> Judy

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Thane

I stand by my " educated guess " definition when it comes to whether or not its a

true " herx " vs flare up vs intolerance to meds.I am very glad that you have

developed an insight to your own body and it would be great if everyone had that

skill. Unfortunately they dont. And also unfortunately, there is no way for even

you to be absolutely sure of what youre experiencing either. Thats your educated

guess. Like all guesses, sometimes they are correct, other times...not so much.

That doesnt mean we all cant start to note patterns of symptom changes that can

help us and our kids' Drs understand better how to handle them. Almost all of us

here are parents with very ill children. You shared with me and others that not

only are you not a parent yet, but you arent even caring for a child with Lyme.

Perhaps thats why its difficult for you to understand why its so important to be

well informed and embrace a vocabulary that makes it easier for us to interact

with our children's care team. Its hard enough to make these educated guesses

about ourselves ( and as a Lyme patient myself I know this intimately), but its

even harder to make these assessments in our kids.

I have always suggested keeping careful track of treatment and symptoms as well

as meals and even supplements. That will certainly assist the assessment about

whats happening, but it wont guarantee it.There is no way to truly tell--no

test, no absolutes.

you also posted this:[Perhaps nobody has been able to prove that toxins are

emitted from spirochetes but the very nasty toxins ALWAYS show up in people

infected with Lyme Disease. Guilty by association in my opinion.]

For guilt by association you need something to be there in the first place. I

dont recall seeing anything verifiable that " the very nasty toxins ALWAYS show

up in those with Lyme " . Can you direct me to the studies? the documents? As a

scientist Id like to read the sources. It may even help my own son!! which nasty

toxins?? if theyre " always " there surely someone has found them and identified

what they are??

To listen to many, we are at war with toxins. Not entirely true. We as a species

have certainly IMO dirtied our environment up. We have tainted the water, air

and food supply. However we also have marvelously evolved physiologies and for

the most part, our bodies do a great job of " detoxing " those toxins.Thats what

our liver and kidneys are for. I dont think Ive ever seen a primate other than

man, or any other mammal, needing the detox products we see being marketed.the

" detox " products are themselves added toxic burdens on our already struggling

bodies!!

It is true that some of us have overwhelmed this natural detox system; and a few

of us have serious heavy metal contamination. For the most of us, however, we

arent in need of all that detoxing. And the scare tactics do a great job of

selling those products--kudos.

Even Candida have been proven to not cause this toxin you mention.Certainly most

Candida dont even have toxins.

http://mic.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/67/3/255

from the abstract QUOTE : Attempts to demonstrate the production of toxin by

pathogenic strains of Candida albicans have proved negative; a variety of growth

conditions and methods of organism extraction were used, several of which were

previously described by other workers as yielding toxins. Toxin production

appears to be a strain characteristic and not a property of all pathogenic

strains.

That doesnt mean many ill folks dont have problems with Candida overgrowth--they

absolutely DO have problems. But we cant go about willy nilly stating with

absolute conviction that Candida is proven to produce toxins--lions and tigers

and bears oh my.But it does let them sell loads of detox products doesnt it??

notice the trend??

you also posted thisIts also not likely that dead bacteria alone are responsible

for the

herx reaction.

while I do agree that dead bacteria alone arent responsible for all of the

symptoms a person may experience, as far as what defines a herxheimer--the

medical establishment has already determined that. Not me, not you.Medically

speaking, a Herxheimer is : inflammatory reaction of syphilitic tissues induced

in some cases by administering agents ( mercury, antibiotics) and caused by the

release of bacterial ANTIGEN. (only much later was the word endotoxin or toxin

presumed- not always proven). Further the same medical text goes on to say that

antigen releases when the cell membrane ruptures and you know Thane, in all my

decades teaching university level science I have never ever seen any cell

survive after membrane rupture. And the dead bacteria are therefore indeed what

is defined as the culprit in a " herx "

But if you have documentation that a cell can survive after membrane rupture I

would entertain that notion and then agree that a herx reaction doesnt require

dead bacteria.and if you have a verified alternative definition of Herx as

accepted by the medical establishment--that too I would entertain!!

You sound concerned about millions of dead bacteria " carcasses " . Mammals' bodies

take care of the onslaught of bacteria very well!!! thats what our immune

systems are for--we have cells whose only job is to patrol the body and EAT up

bacteria and other debris. Once inside, it is digested; or expelled into the

waste system we also have well developed.

for example our neutrophils and macrophages can engulf up to 25 and 100

bacterial cells respectively EACH!!! within minutes. Thats a 25 to 1 and 100 to

1 odds in our favor!!

as for herx timing I recall stating that it is variable and in fact I agreed

with you that it depended upon the following-how quickly the agent(meds/herbs

etc) entered the body and then rose to an effective level.-effectiveness of

agent to kill/rupture the cell-reaction to the debris released-inability of the

body to do its usual clean up job-enough die-off plus enough debris to effect

reaction

You are absolutely correct that a tincture or liquid extract can be absorbed

faster than a tablet!! You also need that high enough level, and a large enough

die-off as well as the immune and other support systems to be less equipped to

handle the die off. Youre also correct that YOU can probably feel and know whats

happening in your own body--you are truly blessed!! However, for the

majority...not as lucky.

However, given those variables and the unlikelihood of a majority of Lymies

taking fast absorbing tinctures that are highly effective plus a severe reaction

plus a large enough load of bacteria despite having been on so many other

treatments, etc etc--it is still highly unlikely to have an immediate " herx " .I

never said impossible--I said darn NEAR impossible.

Finally it isnt possible to have a herx lasting years simply because of that

pesky definition again that medicine insists on. (You can absolutely have

symptoms for a very long time, but calling it a herx isnt " kosher " ) please read

below--transient, short term.I dont think that " years " can be defined as

transient or even short term but Ive been wrong before.

Dorlands Medical Dictionary has a more modern definition and refers to the

Herxheimer reaction as quote:[ a transient, short-term, immunological reaction

commonly seen following antibiotic treatment of early and later stage

[infectious] diseases which [may be] manifested by fever, chills, headache,

myalgias (muscle pain), and exacerbations of cutaneous lesions. The reaction has

been attributed to liberation of endotoxins-like substances or of antigens (a

substance which causes an immune reaction) from the killed or dying

microorganisms.]

I am curious--you claim we do the following for other infections--salt C/ HBOT,

Rife, abx,and also that if we did it for Lyme we would all be well ( if we could

tolerate the toxics). I only wish that were true--Ive known a few who bravely

attempted to blitzkrieg their Lyme and nearly died. I also know quite the few

over the past 20 years who tried those many things and LOTS more serially..I

dont know anyone who was " cured " by either. Which other infections do we do that

with,anyway?

you ask, why cant we do this for Lyme?? this has nothing to do with

toxins--other than the toxic effects of the treatments themselves, that is. This

has to do with what can and cant--work. Some things no matter how well hyped

simply cant do what they claim theyre doing.Or for the reasons they claim

either.We live in a blessed world where there are rules of nature. And common

sense and critical thinking should prevail.

I have opinions that you may not agree with, and that is your perogative.

However I also write valid factual information and that is verified and cited.

If that information changes I will stand corrected. Until then...I back up all I

write and even double re-check it before posting to insure that I havent

misremembered or that things havent changed since the last time I looked it

up.Those things arent " opinion " but generally accepted factual information. Like

gravity. That isnt " opinion " either.

I dont mind talking about all this. Truly. But I still do wonder why you are

choosing to come to many forums with purposes of promotion. Especially here,

when you arent caring for, nor have a child with Lyme.

you claim I am doing a disservice to " our children " ...what children Thane do you

have??and telling me Im doing a disservice is a bit of personal attack. I havent

attacked you--just your mistaken ideas.the only disservice is misinformation.And

promotion of unvalidated treatments.I dont think I have ever done either.