Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 The NIMH [National Institute of Mental Health] has done some trials on the effects of antibiotic therapy to reduce PANDAS type OCD. They have several articles I have just received today in the mail and have not had a chance to fully read. I believe it said that in one test around 15 to 20% of the PANDAS sufferers did have improvement with antibiotic therapy. Some trials were inconclusive.There are blood tests to check for high levels of antibodies after an infection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2001 Report Share Posted December 16, 2001 HI Grace: You are asking interesting questions here. The most likely source of a good answer is a knowledgeable psychiatrist. Perhaps you can send a request to Dr. Dan Geller by typing " Ask Dr. Geller " in the subject line of a note to the list. Take care, aloha, kathy (h) kathyh@... > My 13 yr old daughter has been on a low dose oral antibiotic for acne > for over a month now. Could this have the side effect of reducing her > OCD symptoms? A year and a half ago she had a severe 2 week long sore > throat with fever, vomiting and even delusions. At the time she was > cultured for strep and meneingitis (negative). The fatigue, mild sore > throats, aches and joint pain seemed to persist so eventually she was > checked for mono and finally lupus since there is a family history > for lupus.(negative). Later I wondered if this could have been a > virus which triggered OCD. Prior to that illness she had been > generally more than average anxious and seemingly depressed for a > time (I assumed related to our cross country move) but after the > illness her ocd symptoms seemed to come on, though it took me awhile > to recognize them, as they were mainly grooming related (except for > some less debilitating phobias: spiders, dog saliva,and travelling on > mountain roads) plus constant obsessions with appearance and fear of > how others perceived her, which can seem somewhat normal at puberty. > It progressed to many hours spent grooming and worrying, losing > sleep, missing school, staying home or in her room, no outside > activities, and then with a very mild outbreak of blemishes (not > really even " acne " ) she began skin picking, shaving (to " clear " her > skin) and exfoliating. I believe the dermatologist perceived her skin > problems as normal acne, so she prescribed the oral antibiotic > regimen, a topical antibiotoc and retinoid cream. In fact some of > the problem with her skin was more related to picking etc than acne. > I had wondered if the treatment might be counterproductive because > with BDD (body dysmorphia)treatments become part of the anti-anxiety > ritual. This was true several times, for if she fell asleep without > doing her facial " regimen " she would not go to school and actually > thought her face looked noticably worse after one night, though it > obviously did not. > Anyway, all her symptoms now seem to be subsiding. Her face does look > better, in part because she is not picking. She is not grooming for > hours, not having repeated absences, getting more sleep, not seeming > so underconfident, not perceiving everyone as hating her at school, > not getting panicky over simple things, less perfectionistic with > assignments, not feeling so fatigued and in pain at Gym class etc. > > Could this be a welcome side effect of the oral and topical > antibiotics? Is it just a lull in OCD, (the very marked improvement > has only been since Thanksgiving, she started the antibiotics in > early Nov.)? Is it that simply because her face looks better alot of > her anxiety is relieved? If that is the case then I would think she > did not have true BDD, because I read that a person with BDD would > just transfer the anxiety to another mild defect, or not perceive any > improvement though others do. > If the antibiotic helps I would have her stay on it whether it was an > acne treatment or not. Is there any medical way to determine if the > antibiotic reduces OCD? Also, if are there side effects to antibiotic > use, such as resistance, is it safe? How do others handle > antibiotics for OCD? Should I bother to pursue the possibilty that > antibiotics are improving her OCD, and that perhaps the OCD was > virally induced, with her pediatrician (the one who referred her to > hypnotherapy-blah). She does not have a psychiatrist right now > (partly my fear of medications) and our therapist is still new for > us, but I have been trying ERP at home by having her get up later and > later (less time to get ready). It backfired at times that she > panicked, but now she actually can get ready much faster with no > panic. I don't know if this type ERP helps or if the antibiotic > reduces symptoms. > Guess I don't expect any concrete answers, just curious as to others > comments. > Grace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Hi Kathy, Actually I ended up asking Dr. Claiborne (moderates the pickaderms- skin picking/ocd list). I was suggesting the possibility that any autoimmune disorders that can possibly be triggered virally might also trigger ocd, and whether antibiotics might have some effect on both conditions. He said it was a shakey connection, but if the antibiotic seemed to be helping, stay on it. It is all too speculative, I guess. Autoimmune disorders are hard to diagnose and and can be confused with, coincide with (b/c of stress) or actually really be anxiety disorders. My maternal side of the family (in both aunt's and cousin's generations) has colitis, lupus, jra, fibromyalgia (my mom came form a family of 8 kids) and anxiety disorders. Just wondered if there is some connection. has never seemed well again physically since she had some recurring sore throat viruses over 2 yrs ago now, and a particularly severe one that because of hallucinations/delusions alerted the pediatrician into thinking of encephalitis or meningitis (all tests negative). Anyway,she has still had persistent fatigue and aches (is it the anxiety or a physical illness? No one knows..) and normally is bedridden with minor sniffles and sore throats. It is only lately (on the antibiotic?) that she has seemed much more energetic, and her ocd has lulled. Grace > > My 13 yr old daughter has been on a low dose oral antibiotic for > acne > > for over a month now. Could this have the side effect of reducing > her > > OCD symptoms? A year and a half ago she had a severe 2 week long > sore > > throat with fever, vomiting and even delusions. At the time she was > > cultured for strep and meneingitis (negative). The fatigue, mild > sore > > throats, aches and joint pain seemed to persist so eventually she > was > > checked for mono and finally lupus since there is a family history > > for lupus.(negative). Later I wondered if this could have been a > > virus which triggered OCD. Prior to that illness she had been > > generally more than average anxious and seemingly depressed for a > > time (I assumed related to our cross country move) but after the > > illness her ocd symptoms seemed to come on, though it took me awhile > > to recognize them, as they were mainly grooming related (except for > > some less debilitating phobias: spiders, dog saliva,and travelling > on > > mountain roads) plus constant obsessions with appearance and fear of > > how others perceived her, which can seem somewhat normal at puberty. > > It progressed to many hours spent grooming and worrying, losing > > sleep, missing school, staying home or in her room, no outside > > activities, and then with a very mild outbreak of blemishes (not > > really even " acne " ) she began skin picking, shaving (to " clear " her > > skin) and exfoliating. I believe the dermatologist perceived her > skin > > problems as normal acne, so she prescribed the oral antibiotic > > regimen, a topical antibiotoc and retinoid cream. In fact some of > > the problem with her skin was more related to picking etc than acne. > > I had wondered if the treatment might be counterproductive because > > with BDD (body dysmorphia)treatments become part of the anti- anxiety > > ritual. This was true several times, for if she fell asleep without > > doing her facial " regimen " she would not go to school and actually > > thought her face looked noticably worse after one night, though it > > obviously did not. > > Anyway, all her symptoms now seem to be subsiding. Her face does > look > > better, in part because she is not picking. She is not grooming for > > hours, not having repeated absences, getting more sleep, not seeming > > so underconfident, not perceiving everyone as hating her at school, > > not getting panicky over simple things, less perfectionistic with > > assignments, not feeling so fatigued and in pain at Gym class etc. > > > > Could this be a welcome side effect of the oral and topical > > antibiotics? Is it just a lull in OCD, (the very marked improvement > > has only been since Thanksgiving, she started the antibiotics in > > early Nov.)? Is it that simply because her face looks better alot > of > > her anxiety is relieved? If that is the case then I would think she > > did not have true BDD, because I read that a person with BDD would > > just transfer the anxiety to another mild defect, or not perceive > any > > improvement though others do. > > If the antibiotic helps I would have her stay on it whether it was > an > > acne treatment or not. Is there any medical way to determine if the > > antibiotic reduces OCD? Also, if are there side effects to > antibiotic > > use, such as resistance, is it safe? How do others handle > > antibiotics for OCD? Should I bother to pursue the possibilty that > > antibiotics are improving her OCD, and that perhaps the OCD was > > virally induced, with her pediatrician (the one who referred her to > > hypnotherapy-blah). She does not have a psychiatrist right now > > (partly my fear of medications) and our therapist is still new for > > us, but I have been trying ERP at home by having her get up later > and > > later (less time to get ready). It backfired at times that she > > panicked, but now she actually can get ready much faster with no > > panic. I don't know if this type ERP helps or if the antibiotic > > reduces symptoms. > > Guess I don't expect any concrete answers, just curious as to others > > comments. > > Grace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Hi Kathy, Actually I ended up asking Dr. Claiborne (moderates the pickaderms- skin picking/ocd list). I was suggesting the possibility that any autoimmune disorders that can possibly be triggered virally might also trigger ocd, and whether antibiotics might have some effect on both conditions. He said it was a shakey connection, but if the antibiotic seemed to be helping, stay on it. It is all too speculative, I guess. Autoimmune disorders are hard to diagnose and and can be confused with, coincide with (b/c of stress) or actually really be anxiety disorders. My maternal side of the family (in both aunt's and cousin's generations) has colitis, lupus, jra, fibromyalgia (my mom came form a family of 8 kids) and anxiety disorders. Just wondered if there is some connection. has never seemed well again physically since she had some recurring sore throat viruses over 2 yrs ago now, and a particularly severe one that because of hallucinations/delusions alerted the pediatrician into thinking of encephalitis or meningitis (all tests negative). Anyway,she has still had persistent fatigue and aches (is it the anxiety or a physical illness? No one knows..) and normally is bedridden with minor sniffles and sore throats. It is only lately (on the antibiotic?) that she has seemed much more energetic, and her ocd has lulled. Grace > > My 13 yr old daughter has been on a low dose oral antibiotic for > acne > > for over a month now. Could this have the side effect of reducing > her > > OCD symptoms? A year and a half ago she had a severe 2 week long > sore > > throat with fever, vomiting and even delusions. At the time she was > > cultured for strep and meneingitis (negative). The fatigue, mild > sore > > throats, aches and joint pain seemed to persist so eventually she > was > > checked for mono and finally lupus since there is a family history > > for lupus.(negative). Later I wondered if this could have been a > > virus which triggered OCD. Prior to that illness she had been > > generally more than average anxious and seemingly depressed for a > > time (I assumed related to our cross country move) but after the > > illness her ocd symptoms seemed to come on, though it took me awhile > > to recognize them, as they were mainly grooming related (except for > > some less debilitating phobias: spiders, dog saliva,and travelling > on > > mountain roads) plus constant obsessions with appearance and fear of > > how others perceived her, which can seem somewhat normal at puberty. > > It progressed to many hours spent grooming and worrying, losing > > sleep, missing school, staying home or in her room, no outside > > activities, and then with a very mild outbreak of blemishes (not > > really even " acne " ) she began skin picking, shaving (to " clear " her > > skin) and exfoliating. I believe the dermatologist perceived her > skin > > problems as normal acne, so she prescribed the oral antibiotic > > regimen, a topical antibiotoc and retinoid cream. In fact some of > > the problem with her skin was more related to picking etc than acne. > > I had wondered if the treatment might be counterproductive because > > with BDD (body dysmorphia)treatments become part of the anti- anxiety > > ritual. This was true several times, for if she fell asleep without > > doing her facial " regimen " she would not go to school and actually > > thought her face looked noticably worse after one night, though it > > obviously did not. > > Anyway, all her symptoms now seem to be subsiding. Her face does > look > > better, in part because she is not picking. She is not grooming for > > hours, not having repeated absences, getting more sleep, not seeming > > so underconfident, not perceiving everyone as hating her at school, > > not getting panicky over simple things, less perfectionistic with > > assignments, not feeling so fatigued and in pain at Gym class etc. > > > > Could this be a welcome side effect of the oral and topical > > antibiotics? Is it just a lull in OCD, (the very marked improvement > > has only been since Thanksgiving, she started the antibiotics in > > early Nov.)? Is it that simply because her face looks better alot > of > > her anxiety is relieved? If that is the case then I would think she > > did not have true BDD, because I read that a person with BDD would > > just transfer the anxiety to another mild defect, or not perceive > any > > improvement though others do. > > If the antibiotic helps I would have her stay on it whether it was > an > > acne treatment or not. Is there any medical way to determine if the > > antibiotic reduces OCD? Also, if are there side effects to > antibiotic > > use, such as resistance, is it safe? How do others handle > > antibiotics for OCD? Should I bother to pursue the possibilty that > > antibiotics are improving her OCD, and that perhaps the OCD was > > virally induced, with her pediatrician (the one who referred her to > > hypnotherapy-blah). She does not have a psychiatrist right now > > (partly my fear of medications) and our therapist is still new for > > us, but I have been trying ERP at home by having her get up later > and > > later (less time to get ready). It backfired at times that she > > panicked, but now she actually can get ready much faster with no > > panic. I don't know if this type ERP helps or if the antibiotic > > reduces symptoms. > > Guess I don't expect any concrete answers, just curious as to others > > comments. > > Grace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2001 Report Share Posted December 22, 2001 HI Grace: What is jra? It is so hard to tease apart all the different symptoms we see in our kids. Particularly so when hypochondriasis is part of the OCD spectrum. What we learn on this list is how many people are dealing with autoimmune problems as well as NBDs. I wonder how many NBDs will turn out to be some antibodies damaging important brain function and not just the small number currently attributed to Strep. YOu will want to discuss taking antibiotics long term with 's p-doc as there is a definite down side to this type of treatment. That way you can get a medical opinion based on the tradeoffs. Good luck, take care, aloha, kathy (h) kathyh@... > Hi Kathy, > Actually I ended up asking Dr. Claiborne (moderates the pickaderms- > skin picking/ocd list). I was suggesting the possibility that any > autoimmune disorders that can possibly be triggered virally might > also trigger ocd, and whether antibiotics might have some effect on > both conditions. He said it was a shakey connection, but if the > antibiotic seemed to be helping, stay on it. > It is all too speculative, I guess. Autoimmune disorders are hard to > diagnose and and can be confused with, coincide with (b/c of stress) > or actually really be anxiety disorders. My maternal side of the > family (in both aunt's and cousin's generations) has colitis, lupus, > jra, fibromyalgia (my mom came form a family of 8 kids) and anxiety > disorders. Just wondered if there is some connection. > has never seemed well again physically since she had some > recurring sore throat viruses over 2 yrs ago now, and a particularly > severe one that because of hallucinations/delusions alerted the > pediatrician into thinking of encephalitis or meningitis (all tests > negative). Anyway,she has still had persistent fatigue and aches (is > it the anxiety or a physical illness? No one knows..) and normally is > bedridden with minor sniffles and sore throats. It is only lately (on > the antibiotic?) that she has seemed much more energetic, and her ocd > has lulled. > Grace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2001 Report Share Posted December 22, 2001 Hi Kathy, JRA is juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. The pediatrician wondered about this when had swelling of her finger and knee joints. One of her knuckles was so swollen and stiff that it was x-rayed for a break, and he questioned too, could it have been a spider bite. Then a short time later another knuckle was visibly badly swollen and then another. I brought her in just to demonstrate that it was not imaginary. She was playing piano at the time and I thought maybe that was bothering her fingers, but then shortly thereafter her knees were visibly swollen too. Before there was ever any visible swelling she complained of aching pain and I just attributed it to fussines or growing pains, although it was certainly more bothersome than one would consider normal. We were always making hot washcloth compresses for her legs so she could sleep better (before and after OCD). I felt so badly when her joints swelled up, and her hair was falling, realizing there must have been more to it than just sensitivity/fussiness. Joint pain and swelling can also indicate lupus, as can hair loss. She was a kid who complained of sore throat and ears all the time too, and since the doctor could not detect anything, I again tended to think fussiness/sensitivity or feel she would just outgrow it. Some of those symptoms seem to have subsided (joint swelling and hair loss) or maybe that she just sort of lives with them now (fatigue and aches). But I want to do the lab work again eventually, maybe when she is in a flare of greater discomfort, and be sure the most sensitive tests are done. I learned that lupus and JRA can go undetected for years with imprecise or inadequate testing (my aunt died in 1963 at age 20 of lupus, her sister and my cousin also have it). I've also researched about lyme disease and we did live in an at risk area (upstate New York) but I have read that lyme disease is quite hard to diagnose as well. The testing and diagnosing seems to be quite an area of controversy. I am less sceptical myself, now, about " made-up " llnesses (or so I, a person who never sees the doctor, thought them to be) like CFS and fibromyalgia. I think in fact there is a real physical cause (viral or bacterial infections, auto-immune?) and because these illnesses can be concurrent with anxiety disorders, that the two are possibly more interrelated than just pain increasing anxiety, or anxiety causing the perception of pain. I am just watching lately, b/c she is on an antibiotic (as far as she and the dermatologist knows- just for acne) and her symptoms seem greatly lessened, but could be just a waning phase. Grace It is so hard to tease apart all the different symptoms we see in > our kids. Particularly so when hypochondriasis is part of the OCD > spectrum. What we learn on this list is how many people are > dealing with autoimmune problems as well as NBDs. I wonder how > many NBDs will turn out to be some antibodies damaging important brain > function and not just the small number currently attributed to Strep. > > YOu will want to discuss taking antibiotics long term with 's > p-doc as there is a definite down side to this type of treatment. > That way you can get a medical opinion based on the tradeoffs. > > Good luck, take care, aloha, kathy (h) > kathyh@i... > > > > Hi Kathy, > > Actually I ended up asking Dr. Claiborne (moderates the pickaderms- > > skin picking/ocd list). I was suggesting the possibility that any > > autoimmune disorders that can possibly be triggered virally might > > also trigger ocd, and whether antibiotics might have some effect on > > both conditions. He said it was a shakey connection, but if the > > antibiotic seemed to be helping, stay on it. > > It is all too speculative, I guess. Autoimmune disorders are hard to > > diagnose and and can be confused with, coincide with (b/c of stress) > > or actually really be anxiety disorders. My maternal side of the > > family (in both aunt's and cousin's generations) has colitis, lupus, > > jra, fibromyalgia (my mom came form a family of 8 kids) and anxiety > > disorders. Just wondered if there is some connection. > > has never seemed well again physically since she had some > > recurring sore throat viruses over 2 yrs ago now, and a particularly > > severe one that because of hallucinations/delusions alerted the > > pediatrician into thinking of encephalitis or meningitis (all tests > > negative). Anyway,she has still had persistent fatigue and aches (is > > it the anxiety or a physical illness? No one knows..) and normally > is > > bedridden with minor sniffles and sore throats. It is only lately > (on > > the antibiotic?) that she has seemed much more energetic, and her > ocd > > has lulled. > > Grace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2001 Report Share Posted December 23, 2001 Dear Grace, Forgive me if you've answered this, but have you seen a rheumatologist about your daughter's health? Lupus also sounds like a likely candidate - I know it runs in families. Good luck, and best wishes for a peaceful, relaxing holiday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2001 Report Share Posted December 23, 2001 scarlet fever can also cause joint pain.undiagnoised strep throat can turn into scarlet fever. check those antibodie titers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 , I have what appears to be psoriatic or reactive arthritis which I treat with 100mg twice daily minocycline and 50mg diclofenac. I am free of static pain and have left my immune system in tact. Read the following link for a new perspective: http://www.drmirkin.com/joints/j159.htm vinnylid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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