Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 It bypasses the liver. To get to the liver it must be swallowed. Jaco > From: <juliedodaro@...> > Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Email from Dr Zagon > low dose naltrexone > Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 10:24 PM > I'm wondering ... does ldn applied > topically in a cream form bypass the liver or does it just > bypass the gut ? > > > > > > > > From the little reading I have done I think there are > receptors in the liver, but will read more on it. > Marja and Jaco, what you both say makes good > sense. Spring is not exactly here just > yet!:-)))) > > Celia > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Hi Art, I have Hepatitis C so my situation is different from yours. I would certainly go with what works and it seems that Dr. Bihari (and Dr, Skip) have found that night time dosing has outstanding success with preventing MS progression. If I had MS, I would stick with what has worked for sure; the risk to do otherwise would be very high. Since I have Hepatitis C and there are very few reports of LDN success (or failure) with this disease...I have the unfortunate luxury of less certainty. What would be nice would be a test for endorphin levels. If I'm correct, the theory is that by taking LDN at the optimal time (to catch the pituitary's release of endorphins in the early am) the body will overcompensate and release up to 300% *more* endorphins into the blood the rest of the day. These endorphins and OGF (opiate growth factors) then 'regulate' the immune system by activating (or kick starting) the immune cells with endorphin receptors. Then this activation 'normalizes' the immune system thereby shutting off the attacks on myelin. Do I have it at all right? So....if we could measure for endorphin levels...we could see how the dose time affects them. Dr. Zagon seems to be biased towards thinking that time of dosing isn't correlated with varying levels of endorphin over-production and Dr. Bihari and Dr Skip seem to be biased towards the thinking that the time of dosing is correlated to the amount of endorphin over production. If this could be measured...it would put this question to rest. Of course very few things in bio-medicine are as simple as that. There are many other questions. It is possible that the time of day of LDN dosing is critical for other reasons. Other functions in the body might be affected by the unavailability of the opioid receptors that might affect the immune system and myelin. The over production of endorphins might be an irrelevant, albeit very interesting, side effect of LDN as far as MS (or any other illness) goes. It may turn out that by dosing with LDN at different times of the day...different diseases processes may be affected (either positively or negatively). There already seems to be some anecdotal evidence that people with a specific thyroid disease (the one that starts with an h and sounds Japanese) responds well to morning dosing. A lot is happening in the body during sleep. No one has actually determined yet why we even *need* sleep! It's possible we sleep because certain bodily repair functions can only occur with the body in a horizontal position. Or maybe the world is not as safe for humans at night and sleep is a way of keeping us safer and inside? So...aside from the endorphin flood in the early am, what is not happening in the body at a cellular level thanks to LDN during sleep that would be happening without it? We only know for certain at this point that *something* good is happening or thousands of people wouldn't be taking it and reporting positive results. Please excuse any ignorance of this subject on my part. I have yet to read as much as I can on this subject as I am trying to save my liver from an early death and have to parse my time appropriately. I only learned of LDN a few weeks ago...but it is fascinating discovering an *underground* medical movement. Thanks for the opportunity to think about these things. Cheers, McGovern > > Interesting post, but... > > Dr. Zagon says to take 1mg LDN every day or every other day and he also says it is okay to take LDN at any time of the day. All of this information goes directly against what Dr. Bihari recommends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 , I think Dr. Zagon is saying that no matter what time of dosing you follow you will have boost in beta endorphin levels. To say he is BIASED toward this view is incorrect. His view stems from his observations and testing in research and clinical settings. Dr. Bihari made many clinical observations of patients using only the bedtime dosing time. No data has been collected using other dosing times and so there is no way to compare one protocol with another. We are getting a data base together to maintain records of the experiences of people who use other than Dr. Bihari's method. Until we have a similar collection of data to that which Dr. Bihari supports his regimen with, we will not be able to make anywhere near an objective statement about such comparisons of dosing times compared.. Until the research is done there is no support to saying one way is better than another. One thing that happens on the cellular level while we sleep is that our cells use oxygen for energy while during the day they use glucose. Now when people work at night using the Bihari method they are not sleeping and their cells are on awake mode. So I don't believe this is factor in endorphin production. You probably already know that endorphin production occurs at any time. During pleasurable activities endorphin production gets revved up. You've heard of Runner's High - yup, endorphins. Listening to music you love - endorphins. Sex - ENDORPHINS! Sharing a wonderful meal - endorphins. A mother breast feeding her baby - endorphins. , please don't worry yourself sick about this. Your body produces endorphins every time it feels the urge. LDN gives it a very nice boost. For now, you may want to continue on 1 mg until your liver begins to heal. If you have cirrhosis that may not happen. Or you could go to the trans-dermal cream and avoid the liver altogether. Dr. Zagon has not tested the trans-dermal cream and so as a scientist can have no opinion on it. There are people who have used it who love it. It's open to your choice. The main thing is to use LDN regularly at the same time every day for best effect. Jaco > From: McGovern <pmcg@...> > Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Email from Dr Zagon > low dose naltrexone > Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 11:53 PM > Hi Art, > > I have Hepatitis C so my situation is different from yours. > I would certainly go with what works and it seems that Dr. > Bihari (and Dr, Skip) have found that night time dosing has > outstanding success with preventing MS progression. > > If I had MS, I would stick with what has worked for sure; > the risk to do otherwise would be very high. Since I have > Hepatitis C and there are very few reports of LDN success > (or failure) with this disease...I have the unfortunate > luxury of less certainty. > > What would be nice would be a test for endorphin levels. If > I'm correct, the theory is that by taking LDN at the optimal > time (to catch the pituitary's release of endorphins in the > early am) the body will overcompensate and release up to > 300% *more* endorphins into the blood the rest of the day. > These endorphins and OGF (opiate growth factors) then > 'regulate' the immune system by activating (or kick > starting) the immune cells with endorphin receptors. Then > this activation 'normalizes' the immune system thereby > shutting off the attacks on myelin. Do I have it at all > right? > > So....if we could measure for endorphin levels...we could > see how the dose time affects them. Dr. Zagon seems to be > biased towards thinking that time of dosing isn't correlated > with varying levels of endorphin over-production and Dr. > Bihari and Dr Skip seem to be biased towards the thinking > that the time of dosing is correlated to the amount of > endorphin over production. If this could be measured...it > would put this question to rest. > > Of course very few things in bio-medicine are as simple as > that. There are many other questions. It is possible that > the time of day of LDN dosing is critical for other reasons. > Other functions in the body might be affected by the > unavailability of the opioid receptors that might affect the > immune system and myelin. The over production of endorphins > might be an irrelevant, albeit very interesting, side effect > of LDN as far as MS (or any other illness) goes. It may turn > out that by dosing with LDN at different times of the > day...different diseases processes may be affected (either > positively or negatively). There already seems to be some > anecdotal evidence that people with a specific thyroid > disease (the one that starts with an h and sounds Japanese) > responds well to morning dosing. > > A lot is happening in the body during sleep. No one has > actually determined yet why we even *need* sleep! It's > possible we sleep because certain bodily repair functions > can only occur with the body in a horizontal position. Or > maybe the world is not as safe for humans at night and sleep > is a way of keeping us safer and inside? > > So...aside from the endorphin flood in the early am, what > is not happening in the body at a cellular level thanks to > LDN during sleep that would be happening without it? > > We only know for certain at this point that *something* > good is happening or thousands of people wouldn't be taking > it and reporting positive results. > > Please excuse any ignorance of this subject on my part. I > have yet to read as much as I can on this subject as I am > trying to save my liver from an early death and have to > parse my time appropriately. I only learned of LDN a few > weeks ago...but it is fascinating discovering an > *underground* medical movement. > > Thanks for the opportunity to think about these things. > > Cheers, > > McGovern > > > > > Interesting post, but... > > > > Dr. Zagon says to take 1mg LDN every day or every > other day and he also says it is okay to take LDN at any > time of the day. All of this information goes directly > against what Dr. Bihari recommends. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 My only concern is for the new members, especially those with multiple sclerosis, when they see it said it is okay to use LDN in doses below the recommended number and to take LDN during hours other than what Dr. Bihari prescribed, to point this out and say this is not what has been successful for so many people. The successful formula is to take 3 - 4.5mgs LDN between the hours of 9pm and 3am every night. Members with MS I know and trust have tried morning dosing as an experiment and have failed. I know of only one member with MS, who was banned from the group long ago for abusive behavior, who claims to still take LDN in the morning, but she is someone I do not trust. After at least a six - nine month or more trial period if the Bihari protocol does not work it is then I would suggest alternate dosing times, amounts, etc. There's not much more to lose. I/we must keep in mind when giving advice in this group there are real people with real problems on the other end counting on us for real help and what is said must be totally clear for understanding. Art My MS/LDN Story 1988 -2009 http://tinyurl.com/5tcp6r --- > > Hi Art, > > I have Hepatitis C so my situation is different from yours. I would certainly go with what works and it seems that Dr. Bihari (and Dr, Skip) have found that night time dosing has outstanding success with preventing MS progression. > > If I had MS, I would stick with what has worked for sure; the risk to do otherwise would be very high. Since I have Hepatitis C and there are very few reports of LDN success (or failure) with this disease...I have the unfortunate luxury of less certainty. > > What would be nice would be a test for endorphin levels. If I'm correct, the theory is that by taking LDN at the optimal time (to catch the pituitary's release of endorphins in the early am) the body will overcompensate and release up to 300% *more* endorphins into the blood the rest of the day. These endorphins and OGF (opiate growth factors) then 'regulate' the immune system by activating (or kick starting) the immune cells with endorphin receptors. Then this activation 'normalizes' the immune system thereby shutting off the attacks on myelin. Do I have it at all right? > > So....if we could measure for endorphin levels...we could see how the dose time affects them. Dr. Zagon seems to be biased towards thinking that time of dosing isn't correlated with varying levels of endorphin over-production and Dr. Bihari and Dr Skip seem to be biased towards the thinking that the time of dosing is correlated to the amount of endorphin over production. If this could be measured...it would put this question to rest. > > Of course very few things in bio-medicine are as simple as that. There are many other questions. It is possible that the time of day of LDN dosing is critical for other reasons. Other functions in the body might be affected by the unavailability of the opioid receptors that might affect the immune system and myelin. The over production of endorphins might be an irrelevant, albeit very interesting, side effect of LDN as far as MS (or any other illness) goes. It may turn out that by dosing with LDN at different times of the day...different diseases processes may be affected (either positively or negatively). There already seems to be some anecdotal evidence that people with a specific thyroid disease (the one that starts with an h and sounds Japanese) responds well to morning dosing. > > A lot is happening in the body during sleep. No one has actually determined yet why we even *need* sleep! It's possible we sleep because certain bodily repair functions can only occur with the body in a horizontal position. Or maybe the world is not as safe for humans at night and sleep is a way of keeping us safer and inside? > > So...aside from the endorphin flood in the early am, what is not happening in the body at a cellular level thanks to LDN during sleep that would be happening without it? > > We only know for certain at this point that *something* good is happening or thousands of people wouldn't be taking it and reporting positive results. > > Please excuse any ignorance of this subject on my part. I have yet to read as much as I can on this subject as I am trying to save my liver from an early death and have to parse my time appropriately. I only learned of LDN a few weeks ago...but it is fascinating discovering an *underground* medical movement. > > Thanks for the opportunity to think about these things. > > Cheers, > > McGovern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Is the dose at all dependant upon body weight? My daughter and I both weigh around 100 pounds and felt sick to our stomachs on 4.5 mg. We both went off after four days and will restart again at a lower dose. I was curious if our goal should be the full 4.5 mg dose. She has celiac disease and I have lyme disease plus other autoimmune issues. Kenda > My only concern is for the new members, especially those with multiple > sclerosis, when they see it said it is okay to use LDN in doses below the > recommended number and to take LDN during hours other than what Dr. Bihari > prescribed, to point this out and say this is not what has been successful for > so many people. The successful formula is to take 3 - 4.5mgs LDN between the > hours of 9pm and 3am every night. Members with MS I know and trust have tried > morning dosing as an experiment and have failed. I know of only one member > with MS, who was banned from the group long ago for abusive behavior, who > claims to still take LDN in the morning, but she is someone I do not trust. > After at least a six - nine month or more trial period if the Bihari protocol > does not work it is then I would suggest alternate dosing times, amounts, etc. > There's not much more to lose. I/we must keep in mind when giving advice in > this group there are real people with real problems on the other end counting > on us for real help and what is said must be totally clear for understanding. > > Art > > My MS/LDN Story 1988 -2009 > http://tinyurl.com/5tcp6r > --- > > >> >> Hi Art, >> >> I have Hepatitis C so my situation is different from yours. I would certainly >> go with what works and it seems that Dr. Bihari (and Dr, Skip) have found >> that night time dosing has outstanding success with preventing MS >> progression. >> >> If I had MS, I would stick with what has worked for sure; the risk to do >> otherwise would be very high. Since I have Hepatitis C and there are very few >> reports of LDN success (or failure) with this disease...I have the >> unfortunate luxury of less certainty. >> >> What would be nice would be a test for endorphin levels. If I'm correct, the >> theory is that by taking LDN at the optimal time (to catch the pituitary's >> release of endorphins in the early am) the body will overcompensate and >> release up to 300% *more* endorphins into the blood the rest of the day. >> These endorphins and OGF (opiate growth factors) then 'regulate' the immune >> system by activating (or kick starting) the immune cells with endorphin >> receptors. Then this activation 'normalizes' the immune system thereby >> shutting off the attacks on myelin. Do I have it at all right? >> >> So....if we could measure for endorphin levels...we could see how the dose >> time affects them. Dr. Zagon seems to be biased towards thinking that time of >> dosing isn't correlated with varying levels of endorphin over-production and >> Dr. Bihari and Dr Skip seem to be biased towards the thinking that the time >> of dosing is correlated to the amount of endorphin over production. If this >> could be measured...it would put this question to rest. >> >> Of course very few things in bio-medicine are as simple as that. There are >> many other questions. It is possible that the time of day of LDN dosing is >> critical for other reasons. Other functions in the body might be affected by >> the unavailability of the opioid receptors that might affect the immune >> system and myelin. The over production of endorphins might be an irrelevant, >> albeit very interesting, side effect of LDN as far as MS (or any other >> illness) goes. It may turn out that by dosing with LDN at different times of >> the day...different diseases processes may be affected (either positively or >> negatively). There already seems to be some anecdotal evidence that people >> with a specific thyroid disease (the one that starts with an h and sounds >> Japanese) responds well to morning dosing. >> >> A lot is happening in the body during sleep. No one has actually determined >> yet why we even *need* sleep! It's possible we sleep because certain bodily >> repair functions can only occur with the body in a horizontal position. Or >> maybe the world is not as safe for humans at night and sleep is a way of >> keeping us safer and inside? >> >> So...aside from the endorphin flood in the early am, what is not happening in >> the body at a cellular level thanks to LDN during sleep that would be >> happening without it? >> >> We only know for certain at this point that *something* good is happening or >> thousands of people wouldn't be taking it and reporting positive results. >> >> Please excuse any ignorance of this subject on my part. I have yet to read as >> much as I can on this subject as I am trying to save my liver from an early >> death and have to parse my time appropriately. I only learned of LDN a few >> weeks ago...but it is fascinating discovering an *underground* medical >> movement. >> >> Thanks for the opportunity to think about these things. >> >> Cheers, >> >> McGovern > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Dr. Bihari said if one weighs less than 105 pounds you should take 3.0mg, it would be like trying to dose for a child. A child weighing 90 pounds would not be given 4.5mg. The increased dosage could be the culprit of your symptoms. Also, if you started having trouble during the time change take your LDN no earlier than 10pm during DST. I would drop that dosage or gain weight if you are over 5 feet tall. Art --- > > Is the dose at all dependant upon body weight? My daughter and I both weigh > around 100 pounds and felt sick to our stomachs on 4.5 mg. We both went off > after four days and will restart again at a lower dose. I was curious if > our goal should be the full 4.5 mg dose. She has celiac disease and I have > lyme disease plus other autoimmune issues. > > Kenda > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 > > Is the dose at all dependant upon body weight? My daughter and I both weigh > around 100 pounds and felt sick to our stomachs on 4.5 mg. We both went off > after four days and will restart again at a lower dose. =============== At 100-105 pounds you should stay at 3mg. Above 105 you can go up in dose. If you and daughter(if an adult or full grown teen) are not real short in stature your weight might need to be higher. Look at charts for you height and see what your weight should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Thank you, . Actually I weigh 95 pounds and she's just at 100 pounds. She is 16 years old and fully grown. She is 5'2 " and I am 5'4 " . According to height/weight charts, we both should weigh more than we do. Since we both felt so lousy on 4.5 mg, I think we would do better on a lower dose, at least initially. Kenda > > At 100-105 pounds you should stay at 3mg. Above 105 you can go up in dose. > If you and daughter(if an adult or full grown teen) are not real short in > stature your weight might need to be higher. Look at charts for you height > and see what your weight should be. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 I'd love to gain weight but it isn't happening. I've been trying for many years. I have a zooming metabolism. I took my LDN right at 11:00 pm, just before attempting to fall asleep. I was wide awake for several hours, had vivid dreams and had stomach/bowel problems. My daughter had the exact same response to 4.5 mg. Kenda > Dr. Bihari said if one weighs less than 105 pounds you should take 3.0mg, it > would be like trying to dose for a child. A child weighing 90 pounds would not > be given 4.5mg. > > The increased dosage could be the culprit of your symptoms. Also, if you > started having trouble during the time change take your LDN no earlier than > 10pm during DST. > > I would drop that dosage or gain weight if you are over 5 feet tall. > > Art > --- > > > >> >> Is the dose at all dependant upon body weight? My daughter and I both weigh >> around 100 pounds and felt sick to our stomachs on 4.5 mg. We both went off >> after four days and will restart again at a lower dose. I was curious if >> our goal should be the full 4.5 mg dose. She has celiac disease and I have >> lyme disease plus other autoimmune issues. >> >> Kenda >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 i want to tell you that our doctor had family member who was terminale with liver problems.after giving her the papers of dr berkson treatment and teaching her about ldn,this family member is back at work.this doctor is expert in thyroid and adrenal fatigue.you might want to check that part also as almost every chronic sick person exhust his adrenal and then the thyroid is also effected. this doctor is in belgium so is not relevant to you. > > > > Interesting post, but... > > > > Dr. Zagon says to take 1mg LDN every day or every other day and he also says it is okay to take LDN at any time of the day. All of this information goes directly against what Dr. Bihari recommends. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Kenda, Was 4.5mg your introduction to LDN? I was strongly advised to start on 3.0mg and if there were no serious side effects to gradually increase to 4.5mg. Even then, some people find this maximum doseage intolerable and have to decrease. Best, Jayne Please sign the petition to the UK Govt to fund trials for LDN http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/LowDNaltrexone/ From: low dose naltrexone [mailto:low dose naltrexone ] On Behalf Of Kenda Skaggs Sent: 12 March 2009 03:58 low dose naltrexone Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Email from Dr Zagon I'd love to gain weight but it isn't happening. I've been trying for many years. I have a zooming metabolism. I took my LDN right at 11:00 pm, just before attempting to fall asleep. I was wide awake for several hours, had vivid dreams and had stomach/bowel problems. My daughter had the exact same response to 4.5 mg. Kenda > Dr. Bihari said if one weighs less than 105 pounds you should take 3.0mg, it > would be like trying to dose for a child. A child weighing 90 pounds would not > be given 4.5mg. > > The increased dosage could be the culprit of your symptoms. Also, if you > started having trouble during the time change take your LDN no earlier than > 10pm during DST. > > I would drop that dosage or gain weight if you are over 5 feet tall. > > Art > --- > > > >> >> Is the dose at all dependant upon body weight? My daughter and I both weigh >> around 100 pounds and felt sick to our stomachs on 4.5 mg. We both went off >> after four days and will restart again at a lower dose. I was curious if >> our goal should be the full 4.5 mg dose. She has celiac disease and I have >> lyme disease plus other autoimmune issues. >> >> Kenda >> > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1994 - Release Date: 10/03/2009 19:51 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1994 - Release Date: 10/03/2009 19:51 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Art, Most people who come to LDN do not have liver disease. So it ought to be fairly easy for them to sort out when a lower dose of LDN is appropriate and when a normal dose of LDN is the best. was having symptoms of extended receptor blockade which is not the effect one would want with LDN. A short blockade is ideal, otherwise there will NOT be sufficient extra production of endorphins. The reason was experiencing too a long a blockade is precisely because his liver is damaged. The effects of taking too much LDN for him would have been to further that liver damage. There's no sense to that. Again, I appeal to open-mindedness and understanding that we are not all exactly alike and circumstances do exist which may require a different approach from the established order. This will not change the truth of the established order, but it will add a new dimension to it. Surely that is a good thing. Jaco > From: Art Hansen <rtee54@...> > Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Email from Dr Zagon > low dose naltrexone > Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009, 2:56 AM > My only concern is for the new > members, especially those with multiple sclerosis, when they > see it said it is okay to use LDN in doses below the > recommended number and to take LDN during hours other than > what Dr. Bihari prescribed, to point this out and say this > is not what has been successful for so many people. The > successful formula is to take 3 - 4.5mgs LDN between the > hours of 9pm and 3am every night. Members with MS I know and > trust have tried morning dosing as an experiment and have > failed. I know of only one member with MS, who was banned > from the group long ago for abusive behavior, who claims to > still take LDN in the morning, but she is someone I do not > trust. After at least a six - nine month or more trial > period if the Bihari protocol does not work it is then I > would suggest alternate dosing times, amounts, etc. There's > not much more to lose. I/we must keep in mind when giving > advice in this group there are real people with real > problems on the other end counting on us for real help and > what is said must be totally clear for understanding. > > Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 In that case - wouldn't the liver issue be bypassed as well ? > It bypasses the liver. To get to the liver it must be swallowed. > > Jaco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Yes, 4.5 was my introduction. Kenda > Kenda, > > > > Was 4.5mg your introduction to LDN? I was strongly advised to start on > 3.0mg and if there were no serious side effects to gradually increase to > 4.5mg. Even then, some people find this maximum doseage intolerable and > have to decrease. > > > > Best, > > > > Jayne > > > > Please sign the petition to the UK Govt to fund trials for LDN > > http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/LowDNaltrexone/ > > > > > > From: low dose naltrexone > [mailto:low dose naltrexone ] On Behalf Of Kenda Skaggs > Sent: 12 March 2009 03:58 > low dose naltrexone > Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Email from Dr Zagon > > > > I'd love to gain weight but it isn't happening. I've been trying for many > years. I have a zooming metabolism. I took my LDN right at 11:00 pm, just > before attempting to fall asleep. I was wide awake for several hours, had > vivid dreams and had stomach/bowel problems. My daughter had the exact same > response to 4.5 mg. > > Kenda > >> Dr. Bihari said if one weighs less than 105 pounds you should take 3.0mg, > it >> would be like trying to dose for a child. A child weighing 90 pounds would > not >> be given 4.5mg. >> >> The increased dosage could be the culprit of your symptoms. Also, if you >> started having trouble during the time change take your LDN no earlier > than >> 10pm during DST. >> >> I would drop that dosage or gain weight if you are over 5 feet tall. >> >> Art >> --- >> >> >> >>> >>> Is the dose at all dependant upon body weight? My daughter and I both > weigh >>> around 100 pounds and felt sick to our stomachs on 4.5 mg. We both went > off >>> after four days and will restart again at a lower dose. I was curious if >>> our goal should be the full 4.5 mg dose. She has celiac disease and I > have >>> lyme disease plus other autoimmune issues. >>> >>> Kenda >>> >> >> > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1994 - Release Date: 10/03/2009 > 19:51 > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1994 - Release Date: 10/03/2009 > 19:51 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 the cream will help only part of the liver problem.what dr zagon speaks about is accumulation of naltrxone in the system and not getting rid of it via the liver.then there is too much naltrxone in the system and therceptors are blocked more then 4 hours. people that need very little of a certain medecine to have effect might have this problem.the liver does not clear the stuff of the medecine and a little bit hangs around for a long time > > > In that case - wouldn't the liver issue be bypassed as well ? > > > It bypasses the liver. To get to the liver it must be swallowed. > > > > Jaco > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Kenda, That is the maximum dose anyone should be on, an introduction to LDN is usually 3.0mg and you gradually increase to 4.5mg – it takes time. LDN is a very powerful drug and lots do have strong side effects on LDN. It appears from what I’ve read the reasoning behind this may be behind whether the liver can handle it or not. Perhaps try again at 3.0mg for a month and then gradually increase. I take LDN for Crohns and after two weeks it was suggested to increase to 4.5mg. This was fine but after a while it was too much for me and perhaps I increased the dose too quickly. I think everyone is different and perhaps 3.0mg is suitable for you. I am now starting to increase mine from 3.0mg as like everyone else I personally would like to get maximum benefit. Best, Jayne Please sign the petition to the UK Govt to fund trials for LDN http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/LowDNaltrexone/ From: low dose naltrexone [mailto:low dose naltrexone ] On Behalf Of Kenda Skaggs Sent: 12 March 2009 13:16 low dose naltrexone Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Email from Dr Zagon Yes, 4.5 was my introduction. Kenda > Kenda, > > > > Was 4.5mg your introduction to LDN? I was strongly advised to start on > 3.0mg and if there were no serious side effects to gradually increase to > 4.5mg. Even then, some people find this maximum doseage intolerable and > have to decrease. > > > > Best, > > > > Jayne > > > > Please sign the petition to the UK Govt to fund trials for LDN > > http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/LowDNaltrexone/ > > > > > > From: low dose naltrexone > [mailto:low dose naltrexone ] On Behalf Of Kenda Skaggs > Sent: 12 March 2009 03:58 > low dose naltrexone > Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Email from Dr Zagon > > > > I'd love to gain weight but it isn't happening. I've been trying for many > years. I have a zooming metabolism. I took my LDN right at 11:00 pm, just > before attempting to fall asleep. I was wide awake for several hours, had > vivid dreams and had stomach/bowel problems. My daughter had the exact same > response to 4.5 mg. > > Kenda > >> Dr. Bihari said if one weighs less than 105 pounds you should take 3.0mg, > it >> would be like trying to dose for a child. A child weighing 90 pounds would > not >> be given 4.5mg. >> >> The increased dosage could be the culprit of your symptoms. Also, if you >> started having trouble during the time change take your LDN no earlier > than >> 10pm during DST. >> >> I would drop that dosage or gain weight if you are over 5 feet tall. >> >> Art >> --- >> >> >> >>> >>> Is the dose at all dependant upon body weight? My daughter and I both > weigh >>> around 100 pounds and felt sick to our stomachs on 4.5 mg. We both went > off >>> after four days and will restart again at a lower dose. I was curious if >>> our goal should be the full 4.5 mg dose. She has celiac disease and I > have >>> lyme disease plus other autoimmune issues. >>> >>> Kenda >>> >> >> > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1994 - Release Date: 10/03/2009 > 19:51 > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1994 - Release Date: 10/03/2009 > 19:51 > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1996 - Release Date: 11/03/2009 20:42 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1996 - Release Date: 11/03/2009 20:42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Hi Bren,My understanding is that food (and drugs) do not pass through the liver as part of the digestive process. The liver is part of the digestive process in that it manufactures chemicals (such as bile) that aid in digestion. It isn't until the proteins, fats, sugars, drugs, etc are processed by the digestive system and absorbed into the blood that they end up in the liver in chemical form. If a transdermal cream gets the LDN into the bloodstream faster and in a more concentrated way...then it would find itself in the liver faster and more concentrated.(http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/yrdd/ )I would imagine that for people with a compromised or sluggish digestive system, a cream would be beneficial because you don't *want* the ldn dribbling into the bloodstream over a period of hours. You want it in the blood fast so it can shut off the opioid receptors for only a brief period of time.Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.Cheers, McGovern>> Formulations diffuse through the skin and enter into the bloodstream, thereby initially bypassing the liver, stomach, and digestive system (called 'first pass'). Many systemic side effects may be diminished or eliminated.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Hi Jaco,OK...It seems I am wrong and have learned something new. I found this:"Transdermally delivered drugs avoid the risk and inconvenience of intravenous therapy, bypass the liver in terms of first pass elimination, usually provide less chance of an overdose or underdose, allow easy termination, and permit both local and systemic treatment effects."from : http://jrnlappliedresearch.com/articles/Vol2Iss1/Hull.htm So it seems that LDN applied via transdermal patch would still get to the liver...but not on the 'first pass'.Nevertheless..I still am certain that eventually all the substances in the blood get to the liver.Now I am curious...does LDN need the liver to break it down in any form before it can block the opioid receptors, or does it act directly on the cells, blocking the opioid receptors in its 'pure' unaltered form? Cheers, McGovern>> > It bypasses the liver. To get to the liver it must be swallowed.> > Jaco> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 , I am grateful for the research you did on this topic. I realized I had no idea whether or not it got to liver transdermally. But what you say makes sense of course. Once the LDN is in the bloodstream it will eventually get to the liver to be filtered out or broken down. Much less gets into the liver that way I feel pretty certain as most of the LDN will have already been taken up by the mu receptors, so what gets to the liver would be minimal I think. This might be a solution for you if 3 mg orally still gives you too many side effects. It's good to have you on board here. Much success to you. Jaco > From: McGovern <pmcg@...> > Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Email from Dr Zagon > low dose naltrexone > Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009, 8:27 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jaco, > > OK...It seems I am wrong and have learned something new. I > found this: > > " Transdermally delivered drugs avoid the risk and > inconvenience of intravenous therapy, bypass the liver in > terms of first pass elimination, usually provide less chance > of an overdose or underdose, allow easy termination, and > permit both local and systemic treatment effects. " > > from : http://jrnlappliedresearch.com/articles/Vol2Iss1/Hull.htm > > So it seems that LDN applied via transdermal patch would > still get to the liver...but not on the 'first > pass'. > > Nevertheless..I still am certain that eventually all the > substances in the blood get to the liver. > > Now I am curious...does LDN need the liver to break it down > in any form before it can block the opioid receptors, or > does it act directly on the cells, blocking the opioid > receptors in its 'pure' unaltered form? > > Cheers, > > McGovern > > > > > > > > > It bypasses the liver. To get to the liver it must be > swallowed. > > > > Jaco > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Thank you Zahavi, The most prevalent symptom I have with my Hepatitis C is an almost unrelenting and crippling fatigue that has worsened over time. My naturopath attributes a lot of that fatigue to adrenal fatigue. I have just finished the equivalent of two weeks of IV ALA and am still taking LDN at 3 mg a day at 9:45 am. My daytime side effects seem to be a little more tolerable than at first. I have requested that my compounder send me 1.5mg capsules for my next month. I will try night time dosing again at 1.5mg for a while and then up to 3mg at night if I sleep. With such chronic fatigue and a good night's sleep being so critical to liver healing, I am hoping I'll be able to sleep with pm LDN dosing. How long did it take for your doctor's family member to be back at work? I have been unable to work for five years. Cheers, McGovern > > i want to tell you that our doctor had family member who was terminale with liver problems.after giving her the papers of dr berkson treatment and teaching her about ldn,this family member is back at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 , it sounds to me as if you are on the tough road to recovery. As you said yourself, the best healing time for the liver is between 1-3am so if you can take LDN around 10pm at night this may help tremendously. If not, perhaps lower the dose – some start at 2mg etc. and work their way up. You know what’s best for you. Best, Jayne Please sign the petition to the UK Govt to fund trials for LDN http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/LowDNaltrexone/ From: low dose naltrexone [mailto:low dose naltrexone ] On Behalf Of McGovern Sent: 12 March 2009 22:53 low dose naltrexone Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Email from Dr Zagon Thank you Zahavi, The most prevalent symptom I have with my Hepatitis C is an almost unrelenting and crippling fatigue that has worsened over time. My naturopath attributes a lot of that fatigue to adrenal fatigue. I have just finished the equivalent of two weeks of IV ALA and am still taking LDN at 3 mg a day at 9:45 am. My daytime side effects seem to be a little more tolerable than at first. I have requested that my compounder send me 1.5mg capsules for my next month. I will try night time dosing again at 1.5mg for a while and then up to 3mg at night if I sleep. With such chronic fatigue and a good night's sleep being so critical to liver healing, I am hoping I'll be able to sleep with pm LDN dosing. How long did it take for your doctor's family member to be back at work? I have been unable to work for five years. Cheers, McGovern > > i want to tell you that our doctor had family member who was terminale with liver problems.after giving her the papers of dr berkson treatment and teaching her about ldn,this family member is back at work. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1996 - Release Date: 11/03/2009 20:42 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1996 - Release Date: 11/03/2009 20:42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 it was 5 months from the time i gave the info to her until we came back and she told us that the family member works,we have no time for details as we come as patient to an expensive consult.everyone is different but now after many years of dealing with a sick wife and read much you must treat many aspects to get results.only few doctor have broad visions.you can read the book of the brother of the doctor to understand the role hormones play. The Hormone Solution: Stay Younger Longer with Natural Hormone and Nutrition Therapies by Thierry Dr Hertoghe > > > > i want to tell you that our doctor had family member who was terminale with liver problems.after giving her the papers of dr berkson treatment and teaching her about ldn,this family member is back at work. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Hi Jayne, Thanks for taking the time to write. It *has* been a tough five years. Hepatitis C is a sneaky disease...I felt fine for most of the years my liver was being damaged and now I have to play catch up. Today I skipped my LDN morning dose and I already feel better. I am looking forward to getting smaller doses (1.5 mg) and experimenting with those. I'm not sure that the best 'healing time' for the liver is between 1-3 am...all that I know is that the liver meridian (as discussed in Traditional Chinese Medicine) is the most active at that time. It is possible the liver 'heals' at some other time than when it is most active. The liver also has to be very active several hours after a meal when it gets all the nutrient-filled blood from the small intestines during the 'first pass'. I plan to do some more reading in order to find out what the liver is doing and when. I am constantly amazed by human biology and what is going on with us miracles. I hope this post finds you in good health! Cheers, McGovern > > , it sounds to me as if you are on the tough road to recovery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Oh , My heart goes out to you and yes I do understand the seriousness of your ill health. My brother had hepatitis A and hepatitis B and I kept asking people, what the hell is hepatitis C?? But yes playing catch up isn’t going to be much fun at all and PLEASE consider introducing ALA into your system along with the “lower” dose of LDN. If you can tolerate taking LDN at night time I believe you will reap the most benefits. With regards to your referral of Chinese Medicine – I was “made in Hong Kong” so to speak and worked closely with the Eu family in Singapore/Hong Kong so am very familiar with Chinese medicine – it has a lot going for it. But my goodness are we all learning from your experience and wealth of knowledge already! Wishing you all the best, Jayne Please sign the petition to the UK Govt to fund trials for LDN http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/LowDNaltrexone/ From: low dose naltrexone [mailto:low dose naltrexone ] On Behalf Of McGovern Sent: 13 March 2009 18:33 low dose naltrexone Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Re: Email from Dr Zagon Hi Jayne, Thanks for taking the time to write. It *has* been a tough five years. Hepatitis C is a sneaky disease...I felt fine for most of the years my liver was being damaged and now I have to play catch up. Today I skipped my LDN morning dose and I already feel better. I am looking forward to getting smaller doses (1.5 mg) and experimenting with those. I'm not sure that the best 'healing time' for the liver is between 1-3 am...all that I know is that the liver meridian (as discussed in Traditional Chinese Medicine) is the most active at that time. It is possible the liver 'heals' at some other time than when it is most active. The liver also has to be very active several hours after a meal when it gets all the nutrient-filled blood from the small intestines during the 'first pass'. I plan to do some more reading in order to find out what the liver is doing and when. I am constantly amazed by human biology and what is going on with us miracles. I hope this post finds you in good health! Cheers, McGovern > > , it sounds to me as if you are on the tough road to recovery. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.13/1999 - Release Date: 13/03/2009 05:59 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.13/1999 - Release Date: 13/03/2009 05:59 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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