Re: ac protocol or ALA 3x a day

March 2, 2009

WOW WOW WOW.

How's that. I one up'd your WOW's by three, so maybe that's a three up.

The argument here is not about daytime versus nighttime.

Its about infrequent dose protocols, versus frequent/low dose protocols

(ie Andy's). Which I think Jan has covered nicely.

What is trying to do is to stop a parent from potentially

forcing more mercury into the child's brain and causing more brain

damage. But it seems a lot of people here aren't really worried about

putting more mercury in the brain or causing more brain damage. They're

more worried about having someone speak gently too them and tell them

its all OK, no matter what they do. I don't think is unethical,

in fact its quite the opposite. If didn't care about other

people, he would say NOTHING and let people find out for themselves when

its all too late.

As far as thinking the gun example is over the top, I have witnessed for

myself a parent go ahead and destroy their child's brain and despite my

warnings, week, after week, the child has gotten SO MUCH worse. The

damage to the brain is probably massive given the onset of symptoms.

But don't take my word for it, check out the DMPS backfire website for

what happens when chelating agents are used while ignoring the half

life, and here's some relevant reading too:

TITLE: Increased inorganic mercury in spinal motor neurons following

chelating agents.

AUTHORS: Ewan KB; Pamphlett R

AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Pathology (Neuropathology Division),

University of Sydney, Australia.

SOURCE: Neurotoxicology 1996 Summer;17(2):343-9

CITATION IDS: PMID: 8856730 UI: 97009625

ABSTRACT: Heavy metal toxicity has been implicated in the pathogenesis of

motor neuron diseases. In an attempt to assess the efficacy of chelating

agents to remove mercury from motor neurons, we quantitated the effect

of the

chelating agents meso-2,3-dimercaptosuccinic acid (DMSA) and 2,3-

dimercaptopropane -1-sulphonate (DMPS) on the burden of inorganic mercury in

mouse spinal motor neurons. Mice were injected intraperitoneally with 1.0 mg

HgCl2/kg body weight and one week later with either 4,400 mg/kg DMPS, 3,600

mg/kg DMSA or 5% NaHCO3 (control) over 4 weeks. Mercury deposits in motor

neurons of 50 micron frozen sections of lumbar spinal cord were visualised

with an autometallographic technique. Optical sections of silver-enhanced

deposits were acquired using a confocal microscope in reflective mode

and the

volume of the deposits within the perikaryon was estimated. Mercury deposits

occupied significantly more volume in motor neurons after both DMPS

(7.4%, SD

+/- 0.7%) and DMSA (8.0% +/- SD 0.7%) treatment than in controls (4.3%, SD

+/- 1.7%). The higher levels of neuronal inorganic mercury may be due to

increased entry of mercury into motor axons across the neuromuscular

junction

as a result of chelator-induced elevated circulating mercury.

Above paper in which it is shown DMSA increases levels of mercury in spinal

motor neurons.

Vitamin C, Glutathione, or Lipoic Acid Did Not Decrease Brain

or Kidney Mercury in Rats Exposed to Mercury Vapor†

H. Vasken Aposhian,1,* L. ,2 H. L. Sam Queen,3

M. Maiorino,1 and M. Aposhian1

1

Department of Molecular and Cellular Biology, The University of Arizona,

Tucson, Arizona, USA

2

Laboratory of Toxicology, National Institute of Environmental Health

Sciences,

Research Triangle Park, North Carolina, USA

3

The Institute for Health Realities, Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA

ABSTRACT

Some medical practitioners prescribe GSH and vitamin C alone or in

combination with DMPS

or DMSA for patients with mercury exposure that is primarily due to the

mercury vapor

emitted by dental amalgams. Hypothesis. This study tested the hypothesis

that GSH, vitamin

C, or lipoic acid alone or in combination with DMPS or DMSA would

decrease brain

mercury. Methods. Young rats were exposed to elemental mercury by

individual nose cone, at

the rate of 4.0 mg mercury per m3 air for 2 h per day for 7 consecutive

days. After a 7-day

equilibrium period, DMPS, DMSA, GSH, vitamin C, lipoic acid alone, or in

combination was

administered for 7 days and the brain and kidneys of the animals removed

and analyzed for

mercury by cold vapor atomic absorption. Results: None of these regimens

reduced the

mercury content of the brain. Although DMPS or DMSA was effective in

reducing kidney

mercury concentrations, GSH, vitamin C, lipoic acid alone, or in

combination were not.

Conclusion. One must conclude that the palliative effect, if any, of

GSH, vitamin C, or lipoic

acid for treatment of mercury toxicity due to mercury vapor exposure

does not involve

mercury mobilization from the brain and kidney.

" Alpha-lipoic acid is also being used in combination with DMSA or DMPS

for treating autistic children. It was not effective in decreasing brain

or kidney Hg in our studies. "

The above paper was a " once a day " protocol. Their data also showed an

increase (further concentration) of brain mercury.

Below is one of the papers Andy used to work out his protocol, with some

comments from Andy:

Toxicol Appl Pharmacol 1992 May;114(1):88-96

Effect of lipoic acid on biliary excretion of glutathione and metals.

Gregus Z, Stein AF, Varga F, Klaassen CD

Department of Pharmacology, University Medical School of Pecs, Hungary.

Several metals are excreted in bile as glutathione complexes, and their

biliary excretion is facilitated by increased hepatobiliary transport of

glutathione. The present study analyzed the effect of lipoic acid (LA;

thioctic acid; 37.5-300 mumol/kg, iv), an endogenous disulfide which can be

reduced in vivo to a dithiol, on the hepatobiliary disposition of

glutathione-related thiols and the biliary excretion of metals (10 mumol/kg,

iv) in rats. Administration of LA enhanced the biliary excretion of reduced

glutathione in a dose-dependent fashion. Despite increasing glutathione

output, LA (150 mumol/kg, iv) did not increase, but rather decreased, the

biliary excretion of methylmercury, cadmium, zinc, and copper, which are

transported into bile in a glutathione-dependent manner, as indicated by a

marked reduction in their biliary excretion after diethyl maleate-induced

glutathione depletion. In contrast, biliary excretion of inorganic mercury,

which is minimally affected by glutathione depletion, was dramatically

enhanced (12- to 37-fold) by LA administration. Following injection of LA,

the concentrations of endogenous disulfides in arterial blood plasma (e.g.,

cystine, glutathione disulfide, cysteine-glutathione, protein-cysteine, and

protein-glutathione mixed disulfides) were considerably diminished,

while the

levels of endogenous thiols (e.g., glutathione and cysteine) were increased.

This finding indicates that LA, probably after enzymatic conversion to

dihydrolipoic acid, can reduce endogenous disulfides to thiols. It appears

that LA induces the transport of glutathione into bile by the temporary

formation of dihydrolipoic acid-glutathione mixed disulfide, which after

being translocated into bile is cleaved to LA and reduced glutathione.

Because the glutathione molecule thus transported into bile cannot complex

metals at the thiol group, this might be the mechanism for the observed

failure of the LA-induced increase in biliary excretion of glutathione to

enhance the hepatobiliary transport of metals that are transported into bile

as glutathione complexes (i.e., methylmercury, cadmium, zinc, and copper).

The observations also raise the possibility that endogenous dihydrolipoic

acid, by forming a stable complex with mercuric ion, may play the role of a

carrier molecule in the hepatobiliary transport of inorganic mercury.

This is an excellent and useful paper. I suggest people get the actual paper

and read it rather than relying on the abstract if they are going to draw

conclusions about what they will or won't do.

This paper actually did have a large influence on determining the LA

chelation protcol as follows: I don't suggest LA until some months after

organic mercury exposure ceases so that it all converts to inorganic form, I

suggest using half maximum zinc dosage once chelation starts, and I suggest

not chelating more than half the time and taking frequent breaks from it to

avoid perturbing copper and zinc balance.

Unusually for a biomedical paper these guys presented their data in enough

detail that I was able to extract a rate law for LA and mercury - and found

it was the same as the info I got on rates from the Russian paper on LA for

mercury poisoning.

This is a rat paper, not one with human subjects, but most of the

fundamentals of biochemistry remain the same among all mammals. The things

you have to watch out for are papers where vitamin C is relevant (since rats

make their own and we need to eat it) and papers where the blood/brain

barrier is relevant (since ours works much differently and much better than

the one rats have).

Andy Cutler

Thanks Andy... now back to me....

I've got plenty more studies and a myriad of info.... but you know what....

I'm sick of beating my head against the wall.

Go look it up yourself, or do whatever you like.

But don't expect guys like to make you feel good about yourself.

Good on you for sticking your neck out.

I still find it hard to believe that we're dealing with the brain damage

of children, and people want to get hung up on the way something is

written in an email.

People want to spend all their time getting offended at emails, well

here's something for you all.....

Go see a good chiropractor and they might be able to do something about

that head stuck up your arse!

Alan Foossolvesunified.com wrote:

>

> Wow. My children are adults now and I have no control over such

> things, but may I ask... why would taking the chelators 3x/night be so

> starkly different thatn 3x/daytime. I'm not challenging the logic

> here, but am wondering how daytime results in Hg sticking to the brain

> while nighttime pulls it out of the brain, not to say that it doesn't

> work that way. And, yes, I think the analogies used may be a little

> extreme, too. Isn't that how we know the MDs are lying to us? When

> logic seems to fail them, they turn the conversation to the dire and

> frightening - " your child will get sick, will die, we refuse to treat

> an unvaccinated child, that's child abuse.... " Seriously, if the AC

> protocol is effective, and the anti-mercury cause is legitimate, then

> there should be no place for this kind of response. Yes, I realize,

> too, that I'm possibly in violation myself if berating a fellow

> member, but I do not think that it's appropriate to plant the thought of

> aiming a gun at your child's head in the mind of a concerned parent

> who has a very legitimate question in the context of others who are

> searching for understanding. Treatments at night may very well be

> preferrable, but the difference could not possibly be equivalent to a

> gunshot to the brain, nor even the difference between zero brain

> damage and 100%. This is religious dogma, not persuasion, and it's

> very unethical to blindside a concerned parent with that kind of guilt...

>

> From: Ross <mrossgrp@... <mailto:mrossgrp%40gmail.com>>

> Subject: Re: [ ] ac protocol or ALA 3x a day

>

> <mailto: %40>

> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 1:31 AM

>

> >I understand the benefit of AC protocol. Can anyone speak to doing the

> >protocol 3x a day and not at night?

>

> Yes, it's called the " Chelation Protocol for Parents who Put their

> own Sleep Needs ahead of the Child's Health and Well Being " .

>

> It causes redistribution of mercury to the brain.

>

> Might as well do nothing.

>

> >

March 2, 2009

Alan.

's question was NOT 3x at night OR 3x during the day.

It was 3x during the day or [the correct protocol] every 3 hours DAY AND NIGHT.

I stand by my statement, and Andy's, that 3x per day is more harmful

than doing nothing.

If you don't understand how the gun metaphor is relevant, or the

pulling your child away from the stove when he fails to stop hovering

his hand over the burner, or the chemistry of what you are doing to

your child, you should not be chelating your child.

This is not dogma. Dogma is about beliefs. This about

incontrovertible fact and science.

>Wow. My children are adults now and I have no control over such

>things, but may I ask... why would taking the chelators 3x/night be

>so starkly different thatn 3x/daytime. I'm not challenging the logic

>here, but am wondering how daytime results in Hg sticking to the

>brain while nighttime pulls it out of the brain, not to say that it

>doesn't work that way. And, yes, I think the analogies used may be a

>little extreme, too. Isn't that how we know the MDs are lying to us?

>When logic seems to fail them, they turn the conversation to the

>dire and frightening - " your child will get sick, will die, we

>refuse to treat an unvaccinated child, that's child abuse.... "

>Seriously, if the AC protocol is effective, and the anti-mercury

>cause is legitimate, then there should be no place for this kind of

>response. Yes, I realize, too, that I'm possibly in violation myself

>if berating a fellow member, but I do not think that it's

>appropriate to plant the thought of

>aiming a gun at your child's head in the mind of a concerned parent

>who has a very legitimate question in the context of others who are

>searching for understanding. Treatments at night may very well be

>preferrable, but the difference could not possibly be equivalent to

>a gunshot to the brain, nor even the difference between zero brain

>damage and 100%. This is religious dogma, not persuasion, and it's

>very unethical to blindside a concerned parent with that kind of

>guilt...

>

>From: Ross <<mailto:mrossgrp%40gmail.com>mrossgrp@...>

>Subject: Re: [ ] ac protocol or ALA 3x a day

><mailto: %40>

>Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 1:31 AM

>

>>I understand the benefit of AC protocol. Can anyone speak to doing the

>>protocol 3x a day and not at night?

>

>Yes, it's called the " Chelation Protocol for Parents who Put their

>own Sleep Needs ahead of the Child's Health and Well Being " .

>

>It causes redistribution of mercury to the brain.

>

>Might as well do nothing.

>

>>

March 2, 2009

As a 'newbie' to this board but not to bio-med protocals, I'm a bit bemused by

this entire thread.

Â

I don't think anyone expects anyone else to kiss their ass but I also think that

anyone should be able to ask a question that they legitimately have without

feeling like they're idiots.Â Some of us here are new to chelation and we

understand that it's important.Â We understand that it's potentially dangerous

and that's why we want to ask the questions first.

Â

Yes, you may have had the question before and yes, you may have answered to

someone else before but you must remember that people are joining these lists

everyday and are often new to these concepts.Â

Â

We're here to help and support one another because we get enough crap from

uninformed people, doctors, agencies, therapists, school administrators,

teachers, neighbors, family members etc.

>

> From: Ross <mrossgrp@...

<mailto:mrossgrp%40gmail.com>>

> Subject: Re: [ ] ac protocol or ALA 3x a day

>

> <mailto: %40>

> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 1:31 AM

>

> >I understand the benefit of AC protocol. Can anyone speak to doing the

> >protocol 3x a day and not at night?

>

> Yes, it's called the " Chelation Protocol for Parents who Put

their

> own Sleep Needs ahead of the Child's Health and Well Being " .

>

> It causes redistribution of mercury to the brain.

>

> Might as well do nothing.

>

> >

March 2, 2009

Asking questions is great!

Doing a song and dance and wasting time telling everyone how offended

you are by the way something is worded is a load of BS.

Bottom line. I see as supportive.

Again, if he didn't care he wouldn't say anything.

OR WORSE, if he was worried about his ego and that people loved him,

he'd just tell them what they want to hear, despite the fact it might

cause damage to a child.

The guy has integrity.

What about if I do this

:0)

or this

)

Isn't that better?

That's how guys like Offit deliver their message, with a great big

smile as they poison your child.

Amy Yardley wrote:

>

> As a 'newbie' to this board but not to bio-med protocals, I'm a bit

> bemused by this entire thread.

>

> I don't think anyone expects anyone else to kiss their ass but I also

> think that anyone should be able to ask a question that they

> legitimately have without feeling like they're idiots. Some of us

> here are new to chelation and we understand that it's important. We

> understand that it's potentially dangerous and that's why we want to

> ask the questions first.

>

> Yes, you may have had the question before and yes, you may have

> answered to someone else before but you must remember that people are

> joining these lists everyday and are often new to these concepts.

>

> We're here to help and support one another because we get enough crap

> from uninformed people, doctors, agencies, therapists, school

> administrators, teachers, neighbors, family members etc.

>

> >

> > From: Ross <mrossgrp@... <mailto:mrossgrp%40gmail.com>

> <mailto:mrossgrp%40gmail.com>>

> > Subject: Re: [ ] ac protocol or ALA 3x a day

> >

> <mailto: %40>

> > <mailto: %40>

> > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 1:31 AM

> >

> > >I understand the benefit of AC protocol. Can anyone speak to doing the

> > >protocol 3x a day and not at night?

> >

> > Yes, it's called the " Chelation Protocol for Parents who Put

> their

> > own Sleep Needs ahead of the Child's Health and Well Being " .

> >

> > It causes redistribution of mercury to the brain.

> >

> > Might as well do nothing.

> >

> > >

March 2, 2009

.

You're right AND you're wrong. What so you think is worse, chelating incorrectly

or causing a new parent to not chelate AT ALL because they got offended or put

off by your post and then decided to not come back to this group. If that's

not concern enough to use more tact, you have seriously lost your way.

________________________________

From: Ross <mrossgrp@...>

Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 7:50:59 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] ac protocol or ALA 3x a day