to chelate or not, was Re: If you could start over again...

[Guest guest]

At what round do most start see noticeable good results? How do you know when

to bump up the dosage?

Dana

eli8591 wrote:

> Third thought...chuckling ...yep, still awake, more on that later

> on...mercury itself is not the biggest bully of the metals - as a side

> note, I reserve that title for fluoride.

> However, mercury is the one metal, that once it is escorted into your

> brain, your own body helps it metabolize/change into the form of

> mercury that simply does not leave. It rather firmly parks its butt,

> will not leave & just has a continual party from that moment on...ALA

> is one of the (few) things that grabs it & says, okay buddy, time to

> leave already and escorts it out of there....but after ALA's half-life

> period is done - the mercury just flat wears him out, fighting to stay

> put all the way, imo Well, the ALA loses hold of the mercury, and

> drops it - which is where continual dosing comes in, because whoops,

> there is another batch of ALA right there ready to scoop that mercury

> right back up & keep him moving right on out...So, my analogy

> continued, mercury rates as the most passive-aggressive of all the

> metals, causing inordinate harm, including inviting all the other

> metals to hang around and party with him " hey, don't leave, just

> getting started here! " Synergy ensues & the havoc starts, yk? Not

> cool, this mercury crapola - Have said it before, when it comes to

> chelating, Andy just totally rocks...ha! just said it again

> wishing all the very best answers, elizabeth

> ps...My migraine girl is wiping me out - this looks like our first

> " successful " round - have started chelating (twice) before & had to

> drop the round by second day...but, manohman, is she busy - good stuff

> in the midst of it, but keeping me hopping...and giggling too - coming

> up with some really good 5yo one-liners, to boot

> ...btw, my older girl is chelating too - she is on her 4th or 5th

> round, tho - tolerates it very well, and is very apparent that it

> helps, short-term and long-term... and, did you notice, not even up to,

> say, 10 rounds, aannndd I have lost count...go figure...urg.

>

>> >

>> > Monika said...

>> >

>> > I also started incorporating some exercises the speech pathologist

>> > suggested

>> >

>> > when we play and already he has learned a couple of new words in just

>> > 2 weeks so

>> >

>> > I am thinking that chelation won't be necessary.

>> >

>> > ====I have a (rather rambling) thought on this...

>> > You have done alot of supplementing and supportive stuff, which is a

>> > really good idea & part and parcel of the big ideas in chelating

>> > metals - having these in place make moving the metals around & out

>> > much easier to cope with, than they would otherwise be....

>> > However, my understanding is that the goal is bigger than that - the

>> > purpose to chelating also revolves around the idea of ending up

>> > healthy & thriving, at whatever stage of healing you can achieve,

>> > without the need for a bunch of supportive supplements and

>> > therapies... that thriving & not needing supportive measures to do so,

>> > is considered a test of sorts, for the " cured " or " not cured " aspect

>> > of mercury toxicity. If hair tests have shown mercury toxicity, then

>> > I would consider chelating. Or lead, or arsenic, etc etc.. I would

>> > also note that supplementing can also normalize a hair test, depending

>> > on the toxicity involved, even while there is still mercury around and

>> > still busy doing its " apoptosis " thing...all the supportive

>> > supplements and such give you & your liver/kidneys/ etc more " ammo " to

>> > combat the effects, without really getting rid of the underlying

>> > toxicity - the mercury stored in your head causing systemic issues...

>> > ...

>> >

>> > You also said...

>> >

>> > Maybe you should get a diagnosis first? What things suggest that your

>> > son is on the spectrum?

>> >

>> > ===I also do not think diagnosis is necessarily helpful, depends on

>> > the situation & the child & the doctor(s) that are available & the

>> > luck of the draw....Feels like mostly helpful when in need of targeted

>> > supportive therapies, tests, and such, which ultimately just revolves

>> > around things like insurance coding and such, so that someone can get

>> > paid, yk? ig...but, this is based on my experience - of sliding thru

>> > the " cracks " in past years and several of us " should have " been

>> > diagnosed with something at some time, but, in hindsite, I am very

>> > very grateful that it happened this way, without any (targeted)

>> > diagnosing going on....chuckling, did hear a bunch of myriad opinions,

>> > tho, now that I think on it

>> >

>> > Big sigh, did all that make sense? Not even close to being

>> > argumentative or anything like that - reread this & could appear that

>> > way, I am thinking...tho I am very tired tonite I am just thinking

>> > that there is more to consider here.

>> >

>> > wishing you the best, elizabeth

>> >

>>

>

[Guest guest]

Are you talking about about hair test with counting rules applied?

S S

to chelate or not, was Re: If you could start over again...

Posted by: " emtonnotme " emtonnotme@... emtonnotme

Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:53 am (PST)

Yes but what about for children who do not show to have mercury

toxicity via hair test, urine tests, blood tests?

They could still have a cellular and organ burdan (especially brain)

burdan of mercury but how would you ever know?

------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Monika - cheers to you too my hillbilly-ish self got a kick out of

that one...anyway, thought this was a very articulate & well-put reply

my biggest thought is that your post is a really good idea of what

it feels like when you are trying to weigh what is best for your own

child - based on all those big and little details, and others that may

or may get posted onto a very public group...second thought - I sooo

totally agree with breastfeeding (not an authority tho and, third

thought, saw 's question about applying counting rules - if that

hasn't been done, I would do that...wishing you the very best, elizabeth

>

> Hi , thanks for you comments, I appreciate them.

>  

> The reason I think it is important to get a diagnosis is because

sometimes babies just develop at different paces. Like with language

delay, for example, our speech pathologist told us that boys typically

develop later than girls and might not start speaking at all until 18

months (vs 12 months for girls). Some babies are very bright and

simply do not speak until they are 2 or 3 years old (there is a good

book on the topic called " Einstein Syndrome: Bright Children Who Talk

Late " by Sowell). We're mainly going to a speech pathologist

for the just in case scenario because if it turns out our son is not a

late speaker but has apraxia for example (which can't be accurately

diagnosed until age 3) then he would have missed out on 1.5 years of

therapy. 

>  

> While I generally feel that parents are better guides than doctors

or " experts " on their child's development and health, I still think it

is useful to know what you are dealing with (for example, with a

speech delay, it could be that your child is on the autism spectrum,

it could also be apraxia, or your child could be perfectly fine and

just be a late talker - but isn't it better to have other assessments

other than the one you make at home to be sure?

>  

> As for us, I don't really think my son has a mercury problem though

I would prefer to have him tested but unfortunately where we live

(Toronto, Ontario, Canada) I have yet to find a doctor or naturopath

who even believes in mercury poisoning, so even the naturopathic

clinics I have been to, they do not do hair tests unless something

very obvious happened (i.e. breaking a mercury thermometer) and since

they have such little knowledge of mercury poisoning, I would not

trust them to interpret the tests either. So for me to chelate him, I

would need to see bigger signs that there is a problem, and right now

I am not altogether convinced that he really does have a speech delay

as he has been improving a lot and he is not yet even 18 months so

that is not a decision I would make until maybe he is 2 years and

still very much behind in language development than his peers.

>  

> So as such I am left to just use my own judgment at at the moment I

feel that my son is ok. I have one small amalgam filling left (I got

the rest removed 4 years prior to becomming pregnant) and luckily this

filling is on the side, not on the bottom of the tooth so I make sure

not to drink very hot liquids as this increases the mercury exposure

from the vapours (as would chewing if the filling was on the bottom of

the tooth).  I feel that most of my mercury problems were a result of

very bad protcol (or lack of protocol altogether) on the part of the

doctor that removed my fillings 4 years ago (he did not follow IAOMT

and through some detective work I realized that all my current

yeast/ulcerative colitis symptoms began a few months of the removal of

these fillings so I know that there is a heavy mecury burdan in my

organs and tissues but I don't suspect that much of this is

circulating in my blood stream since my exposure was so long ago.  So

for me it

> is just a matter of common sense - I still feel it is far better to

breastfeed than not,even if you have fillings, and there are several

reputable sources that agree with me

http://www.kellymom.com/health/chemical/mercury.html,

http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/breastfeeding/dont-trash.html

>  

> And I really do think every parent needs to follow their own gut

with respect to their children's health but sometimes getting a second

or third or fouth opinion from a professional can at least rule out

some concerns.

>  

> Again, for us, my son isn't vaccinated so I am pretty sure his

mercury burdan is pretty low. Also children have varying abilities to

clear mercury from their system and there have been some studies that

show that children who have low levels of mercury in urine tests or on

blood tests actually could be very mercury toxic but if the exposure

was not recent, the burdan is in their cells and organs rather than

their blood so that is why it would not appear on tests.  If a child

can detoxify mercury (and the mercury burdan is low) then I'm still

not sure if it would be better support the body to detoxify on its own

through supplementaiton support of the liver/kidneys, etc. rather than

chelate. I'm still undecided on that one. 

>  

> But I definately am still on the search for a good health

practitioner. Unfortunately Canada is even more behind in even

accepting heavy metal toxicity or even parasites than is the US (I

think Europe is far ahead of us in this respect).

>  

> So that is my take on things but I really appreciate your input.

Feel free to share if you have any other thoughts.

>  

> Cheers,

>  

> Monika

>  

>  

>

>

[Guest guest]

First I'd like to say that while yes, babies do develop at different

paces...they should all make verbal sounds by one year of age. If not,

there is something going on. One syllable sounds like Ma, Da, Ba are

typical. Some actually speak in two and three words phrases like my

daughter, son and niece did. The difference with my son was he spoke

in jibberish..you'd understand one of the three words, but he did use

words. My unvaccinated niece actually speaks in sentences and she is

19 months. She will say " Hi Aunt Jan " or " Mom, I want tea " .

I usually urge any parent who has a non verbal 1 year old, or non

verbal 18 month old, not to sit on it. Doctors for some reason like to

give parents that old adage that " maybe he's a late bloomer " . Well

maybe, but what if he's not and you have wasted all that time,

...waiting, when you could have gotten help for it. Such as ruling out

a hearing problem. I was told my son was probably just behind and

would catch up..this was not true. He did not, and we ended up here

and getting therapy and doing biomed. I see many parents told the

same thing and by the time the child is three or four...there are here

trying to figure out what is wrong. If i had ignored my ped..I would

have been here when he was 18 months, rather than 3 years. I would

have not gotten those 18 months vaccines where he stopped looking me

in the eye..and maybe just maybe that damage would have been less. I

try not to " what if " because we can't go back. But...

So I too agree...it doesn't hurt to rule it out or examine any suspicions.

Most of my research and my experience in my holistic parent group

which has a large number of unvaccinated children....we don't have

kids not speaking at one year old. So this would be something one

should look at. As stated below, you don't want to miss 1.5 years of

therapy. The chances of catching up are better, if you start earlier.

I also note that my niece babbled at 6 weeks, and when you would hold

her and look into her eyes, while she was awake and alert, she made

mouthing movements at you, when you talked to her, as if she were

trying to talk. By 6 months she babbled and would say ma, ba.

For the lady who lives in Canada, you can test him by ordering the

hair elements test yourself. If you should decide the need arises.

www.directlabs.com

Many of us cannot find a doctor who knows anything about mercury

poisoning. I'm not saying I don't agree with your approach as stated,

because it sounds like your child might not have much mercury. Just

that many of us can't find a doc and if down the road you do want to

test..it can be done. Coal fired power plants are everywhere...it's

anyone's guess how much Hg kids get from these.

I also note that formula has its own contaminants to worry about like

aluminum in the formula and mercury from the water used to mix it, at

least breast milk has brain protecting magic to counter the amalgam

mercury. So usually this is a good idea..unless mom is seriously toxic

like just had amalgam work done.

For my kids, they had no detectable hair mercury, despite known

exposures...this meant they don't dump it on their own. I also saw

problems with the liver...so for us, chelation is the way to remove

it. They had vaccines, they had a mercury toxic mother, we live near

two coal fired power plants..one was shut down by the EPA last year

for emitting sick amounts of mercury...so in our case...toxicity is

the cause/problem and my kids and I don't seem to get rid of naturally.

If I could start over..I would have ignored the pediatrician when they

said " boys are slower than girls " . I would have done the hair test

earlier. I would have also had my amalgams out and went through detox

before having children. I would have not bought this house in toxin

land. So many things that would have made a difference..the biggest

one being I WOULD NOT HAVE VACCINATED THEM. That what was really

showed the most damage, in regressions and developmental oddities for

us. If I really wanted to start over..I would have refused vaccination

back in 1995 for my first child, and she would not be sick now too.

Sadly, I don't know of a good practitioner in Canada..I have a friend

up there who is very mercury sick and has not been able to find such

help either.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Hi , thanks for you comments, I appreciate them.

> >  

> > The reason I think it is important to get a diagnosis is because

> sometimes babies just develop at different paces. Like with language

> delay, for example, our speech pathologist told us that boys typically

> develop later than girls and might not start speaking at all until 18

> months (vs 12 months for girls). Some babies are very bright and

> simply do not speak until they are 2 or 3 years old (there is a good

> book on the topic called " Einstein Syndrome: Bright Children Who Talk

> Late " by Sowell). We're mainly going to a speech pathologist

> for the just in case scenario because if it turns out our son is not a

> late speaker but has apraxia for example (which can't be accurately

> diagnosed until age 3) then he would have missed out on 1.5 years of

> therapy. 

> >  

> > While I generally feel that parents are better guides than doctors

> or " experts " on their child's development and health, I still think it

> is useful to know what you are dealing with (for example, with a

> speech delay, it could be that your child is on the autism spectrum,

> it could also be apraxia, or your child could be perfectly fine and

> just be a late talker - but isn't it better to have other assessments

> other than the one you make at home to be sure?

> >  

> > As for us, I don't really think my son has a mercury problem though

> I would prefer to have him tested but unfortunately where we live

> (Toronto, Ontario, Canada) I have yet to find a doctor or naturopath

> who even believes in mercury poisoning, so even the naturopathic

> clinics I have been to, they do not do hair tests unless something

> very obvious happened (i.e. breaking a mercury thermometer) and since

> they have such little knowledge of mercury poisoning, I would not

> trust them to interpret the tests either. So for me to chelate him, I

> would need to see bigger signs that there is a problem, and right now

> I am not altogether convinced that he really does have a speech delay

> as he has been improving a lot and he is not yet even 18 months so

> that is not a decision I would make until maybe he is 2 years and

> still very much behind in language development than his peers.

> >  

> > So as such I am left to just use my own judgment at at the moment I

> feel that my son is ok. I have one small amalgam filling left (I got

> the rest removed 4 years prior to becomming pregnant) and luckily this

> filling is on the side, not on the bottom of the tooth so I make sure

> not to drink very hot liquids as this increases the mercury exposure

> from the vapours (as would chewing if the filling was on the bottom of

> the tooth).  I feel that most of my mercury problems were a result of

> very bad protcol (or lack of protocol altogether) on the part of the

> doctor that removed my fillings 4 years ago (he did not follow IAOMT

> and through some detective work I realized that all my current

> yeast/ulcerative colitis symptoms began a few months of the removal of

> these fillings so I know that there is a heavy mecury burdan in my

> organs and tissues but I don't suspect that much of this is

> circulating in my blood stream since my exposure was so long ago.  So

> for me it

> > is just a matter of common sense - I still feel it is far better to

> breastfeed than not,even if you have fillings, and there are several

> reputable sources that agree with me

> http://www.kellymom.com/health/chemical/mercury.html,

> http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/breastfeeding/dont-trash.html

> >  

> > And I really do think every parent needs to follow their own gut

> with respect to their children's health but sometimes getting a second

> or third or fouth opinion from a professional can at least rule out

> some concerns.

> >  

> > Again, for us, my son isn't vaccinated so I am pretty sure his

> mercury burdan is pretty low. Also children have varying abilities to

> clear mercury from their system and there have been some studies that

> show that children who have low levels of mercury in urine tests or on

> blood tests actually could be very mercury toxic but if the exposure

> was not recent, the burdan is in their cells and organs rather than

> their blood so that is why it would not appear on tests.  If a child

> can detoxify mercury (and the mercury burdan is low) then I'm still

> not sure if it would be better support the body to detoxify on its own

> through supplementaiton support of the liver/kidneys, etc. rather than

> chelate. I'm still undecided on that one. 

> >  

> > But I definately am still on the search for a good health

> practitioner. Unfortunately Canada is even more behind in even

> accepting heavy metal toxicity or even parasites than is the US (I

> think Europe is far ahead of us in this respect).

> >  

> > So that is my take on things but I really appreciate your input.

> Feel free to share if you have any other thoughts.

> >  

> > Cheers,

> >  

> > Monika

> >  

> >  

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

-Sorry, brain issues today... I forgot to add..that chelation has been

the best thing we have done for myself and my kids. I would not change

this decision.

-- In , " Jan " <mercurybabies2@...> wrote:

>

> First I'd like to say that while yes, babies do develop at different

> paces...they should all make verbal sounds by one year of age. If not,

> there is something going on. One syllable sounds like Ma, Da, Ba are

> typical. Some actually speak in two and three words phrases like my

> daughter, son and niece did. The difference with my son was he spoke

> in jibberish..you'd understand one of the three words, but he did use

> words. My unvaccinated niece actually speaks in sentences and she is

> 19 months. She will say " Hi Aunt Jan " or " Mom, I want tea " .

> I usually urge any parent who has a non verbal 1 year old, or non

> verbal 18 month old, not to sit on it. Doctors for some reason like to

> give parents that old adage that " maybe he's a late bloomer " . Well

> maybe, but what if he's not and you have wasted all that time,

> ..waiting, when you could have gotten help for it. Such as ruling out

> a hearing problem. I was told my son was probably just behind and

> would catch up..this was not true. He did not, and we ended up here

> and getting therapy and doing biomed. I see many parents told the

> same thing and by the time the child is three or four...there are here

> trying to figure out what is wrong. If i had ignored my ped..I would

> have been here when he was 18 months, rather than 3 years. I would

> have not gotten those 18 months vaccines where he stopped looking me

> in the eye..and maybe just maybe that damage would have been less. I

> try not to " what if " because we can't go back. But...

> So I too agree...it doesn't hurt to rule it out or examine any

suspicions.

> Most of my research and my experience in my holistic parent group

> which has a large number of unvaccinated children....we don't have

> kids not speaking at one year old. So this would be something one

> should look at. As stated below, you don't want to miss 1.5 years of

> therapy. The chances of catching up are better, if you start earlier.

>

> I also note that my niece babbled at 6 weeks, and when you would hold

> her and look into her eyes, while she was awake and alert, she made

> mouthing movements at you, when you talked to her, as if she were

> trying to talk. By 6 months she babbled and would say ma, ba.

>

> For the lady who lives in Canada, you can test him by ordering the

> hair elements test yourself. If you should decide the need arises.

> www.directlabs.com

> Many of us cannot find a doctor who knows anything about mercury

> poisoning. I'm not saying I don't agree with your approach as stated,

> because it sounds like your child might not have much mercury. Just

> that many of us can't find a doc and if down the road you do want to

> test..it can be done. Coal fired power plants are everywhere...it's

> anyone's guess how much Hg kids get from these.

>

> I also note that formula has its own contaminants to worry about like

> aluminum in the formula and mercury from the water used to mix it, at

> least breast milk has brain protecting magic to counter the amalgam

> mercury. So usually this is a good idea..unless mom is seriously toxic

> like just had amalgam work done.

>

> For my kids, they had no detectable hair mercury, despite known

> exposures...this meant they don't dump it on their own. I also saw

> problems with the liver...so for us, chelation is the way to remove

> it. They had vaccines, they had a mercury toxic mother, we live near

> two coal fired power plants..one was shut down by the EPA last year

> for emitting sick amounts of mercury...so in our case...toxicity is

> the cause/problem and my kids and I don't seem to get rid of naturally.

>

> If I could start over..I would have ignored the pediatrician when they

> said " boys are slower than girls " . I would have done the hair test

> earlier. I would have also had my amalgams out and went through detox

> before having children. I would have not bought this house in toxin

> land. So many things that would have made a difference..the biggest

> one being I WOULD NOT HAVE VACCINATED THEM. That what was really

> showed the most damage, in regressions and developmental oddities for

> us. If I really wanted to start over..I would have refused vaccination

> back in 1995 for my first child, and she would not be sick now too.

>

> Sadly, I don't know of a good practitioner in Canada..I have a friend

> up there who is very mercury sick and has not been able to find such

> help either.

>

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Hi , thanks for you comments, I appreciate them.

> > >  

> > > The reason I think it is important to get a diagnosis is because

> > sometimes babies just develop at different paces. Like with language

> > delay, for example, our speech pathologist told us that boys typically

> > develop later than girls and might not start speaking at all until 18

> > months (vs 12 months for girls). Some babies are very bright and

> > simply do not speak until they are 2 or 3 years old (there is a good

> > book on the topic called " Einstein Syndrome: Bright Children Who Talk

> > Late " by Sowell). We're mainly going to a speech pathologist

> > for the just in case scenario because if it turns out our son is not a

> > late speaker but has apraxia for example (which can't be accurately

> > diagnosed until age 3) then he would have missed out on 1.5 years of

> > therapy. 

> > >  

> > > While I generally feel that parents are better guides than doctors

> > or " experts " on their child's development and health, I still think it

> > is useful to know what you are dealing with (for example, with a

> > speech delay, it could be that your child is on the autism spectrum,

> > it could also be apraxia, or your child could be perfectly fine and

> > just be a late talker - but isn't it better to have other assessments

> > other than the one you make at home to be sure?

> > >  

> > > As for us, I don't really think my son has a mercury problem though

> > I would prefer to have him tested but unfortunately where we live

> > (Toronto, Ontario, Canada) I have yet to find a doctor or naturopath

> > who even believes in mercury poisoning, so even the naturopathic

> > clinics I have been to, they do not do hair tests unless something

> > very obvious happened (i.e. breaking a mercury thermometer) and since

> > they have such little knowledge of mercury poisoning, I would not

> > trust them to interpret the tests either. So for me to chelate him, I

> > would need to see bigger signs that there is a problem, and right now

> > I am not altogether convinced that he really does have a speech delay

> > as he has been improving a lot and he is not yet even 18 months so

> > that is not a decision I would make until maybe he is 2 years and

> > still very much behind in language development than his peers.

> > >  

> > > So as such I am left to just use my own judgment at at the moment I

> > feel that my son is ok. I have one small amalgam filling left (I got

> > the rest removed 4 years prior to becomming pregnant) and luckily this

> > filling is on the side, not on the bottom of the tooth so I make sure

> > not to drink very hot liquids as this increases the mercury exposure

> > from the vapours (as would chewing if the filling was on the bottom of

> > the tooth).  I feel that most of my mercury problems were a result of

> > very bad protcol (or lack of protocol altogether) on the part of the

> > doctor that removed my fillings 4 years ago (he did not follow IAOMT

> > and through some detective work I realized that all my current

> > yeast/ulcerative colitis symptoms began a few months of the removal of

> > these fillings so I know that there is a heavy mecury burdan in my

> > organs and tissues but I don't suspect that much of this is

> > circulating in my blood stream since my exposure was so long ago.  So

> > for me it

> > > is just a matter of common sense - I still feel it is far better to

> > breastfeed than not,even if you have fillings, and there are several

> > reputable sources that agree with me

> > http://www.kellymom.com/health/chemical/mercury.html,

> >

http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/breastfeeding/dont-trash.html

> > >  

> > > And I really do think every parent needs to follow their own gut

> > with respect to their children's health but sometimes getting a second

> > or third or fouth opinion from a professional can at least rule out

> > some concerns.

> > >  

> > > Again, for us, my son isn't vaccinated so I am pretty sure his

> > mercury burdan is pretty low. Also children have varying abilities to

> > clear mercury from their system and there have been some studies that

> > show that children who have low levels of mercury in urine tests or on

> > blood tests actually could be very mercury toxic but if the exposure

> > was not recent, the burdan is in their cells and organs rather than

> > their blood so that is why it would not appear on tests.  If a child

> > can detoxify mercury (and the mercury burdan is low) then I'm still

> > not sure if it would be better support the body to detoxify on its own

> > through supplementaiton support of the liver/kidneys, etc. rather than

> > chelate. I'm still undecided on that one. 

> > >  

> > > But I definately am still on the search for a good health

> > practitioner. Unfortunately Canada is even more behind in even

> > accepting heavy metal toxicity or even parasites than is the US (I

> > think Europe is far ahead of us in this respect).

> > >  

> > > So that is my take on things but I really appreciate your input.

> > Feel free to share if you have any other thoughts.

> > >  

> > > Cheers,

> > >  

> > > Monika

> > >  

> > >  

> > >

> > >