Re: Young Man Needs Some Help

[Guest guest]

HCG is an alternative option to coming off all meds if your

testicles work and you are definitely secondary, but it will not

help your HPTA recover. In fact quite the reverse HCG will surpress

your HPTA because it replaces LH with an analogue and when you come

off it LH will be rock bottom.

Clomid or Arimidex in small doses could boost your HPTA by lowering

esradiol. But that would only be appropriate if your estradiol

isn't low to start with.

In fact your test results are missing estradiol.

It would be helpful for you to get it tested. If it is high it

could be accouting for your sluggish pituitary and signal a

requirement for the use of an anti estrogen or arimidex in order to

get the HPTA fired up and free testosterone increased.

>

> Hello,

>

> I am 22 years old with secondary hypogonadism, induced a couple of

> years ago after having lost a lot of weight with an athletics-

> related eating disorder. After recovering from the disorder and

> regaining some weight, I still felt poor and went to see an

> endocrinologist. My T, LH and FSH levels were all low, indicating

> secondary hypogonadism. I was put on Androgel 5g for a few months,

> managed to gain a few more pounds in the gym, but my T levels were

> still low. I increased to 10g, added further mass, and got my T

> levels within range.

>

> I was confident after a pituitary scan turned up negative that my

> HPTA could kick back in, and I tapered off of TRT last fall. After

> feeling like junk, I desperately went back to the doc and

requested

> a protocol of hCG/Clomid/Nolva to kick-start my HPTA, but the

> confused endo was under the impression that I wasn't a solveable

> case and decided to put me on injections. In January of this year,

> he called me up with results from bloodwork that I had done after

my

> earlier time off of TRT and told me that I was right, my HPTA

would

> eventually kick in, and asked me to taper off of injections.

>

> Right now, I have been TRT free since February, but my latest

blood

> work isn't very impressive:

>

> STSH: 2.23 (0.35-5.00 mU/L)

> LH: 3.0 (1-9 IU/L)

> FSH: 3.0 (1-14 IU/L)

> TESTOSTERONE: 11.1 (8.0-38.0 nmol/L)

> PROLACTIN: 7.0 (< 18 ug/L)

> FREE TESTOSTERONE: 15.9 (40.0-85.0 pmol/L)

>

> Clearly my HPTA is still in remission. Although there are days

where

> my sexual function works (with much coaxing) and my workouts are

> good and although I am a generally chipper guy, I still feel tired

> most of the time and my libido is waning. I know it takes a while

> for the HPTA to kick back in (especially considering it was shut

> down for two years), but am I wrong to believe that I should do a

> protocol of hCG/Clomid/Nolva to kick-start my system?

>

> I live in Canada and I have been looking for a good doctor who

will

> help me with this protocol. However, I may have to wait months to

> see another specialist, and he/she will probably shrug off my

> suggestion and try to put me back on TRT, which I do not need!

>

> What do you suggest I do? Should I wait it out a bit longer? If

so,

> is there anything that will help 'speed along' the HPTA's

restarting

> process? I could obtain hCG, Clomid and Nolva on my own and do my

> own protocol, but I would rather be supervised during my treatment.

>

> Thanks!

>

> - Ken

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks. I'd really like for my case to be easily solved with an AI.

I'm currently taking an OTC AI, Novedex XT by Gaspari, which is

essentially a less effective version of Nolvedex.

I don't have blood work slated until early September; should I get

some Arimidex and try a small cycle to see if I feel any better?

- Ken

> >

> > Hello,

> >

> > I am 22 years old with secondary hypogonadism, induced a couple

of

> > years ago after having lost a lot of weight with an athletics-

> > related eating disorder. After recovering from the disorder and

> > regaining some weight, I still felt poor and went to see an

> > endocrinologist. My T, LH and FSH levels were all low,

indicating

> > secondary hypogonadism. I was put on Androgel 5g for a few

months,

> > managed to gain a few more pounds in the gym, but my T levels

were

> > still low. I increased to 10g, added further mass, and got my T

> > levels within range.

> >

> > I was confident after a pituitary scan turned up negative that

my

> > HPTA could kick back in, and I tapered off of TRT last fall.

After

> > feeling like junk, I desperately went back to the doc and

> requested

> > a protocol of hCG/Clomid/Nolva to kick-start my HPTA, but the

> > confused endo was under the impression that I wasn't a solveable

> > case and decided to put me on injections. In January of this

year,

> > he called me up with results from bloodwork that I had done

after

> my

> > earlier time off of TRT and told me that I was right, my HPTA

> would

> > eventually kick in, and asked me to taper off of injections.

> >

> > Right now, I have been TRT free since February, but my latest

> blood

> > work isn't very impressive:

> >

> > STSH: 2.23 (0.35-5.00 mU/L)

> > LH: 3.0 (1-9 IU/L)

> > FSH: 3.0 (1-14 IU/L)

> > TESTOSTERONE: 11.1 (8.0-38.0 nmol/L)

> > PROLACTIN: 7.0 (< 18 ug/L)

> > FREE TESTOSTERONE: 15.9 (40.0-85.0 pmol/L)

> >

> > Clearly my HPTA is still in remission. Although there are days

> where

> > my sexual function works (with much coaxing) and my workouts are

> > good and although I am a generally chipper guy, I still feel

tired

> > most of the time and my libido is waning. I know it takes a

while

> > for the HPTA to kick back in (especially considering it was shut

> > down for two years), but am I wrong to believe that I should do

a

> > protocol of hCG/Clomid/Nolva to kick-start my system?

> >

> > I live in Canada and I have been looking for a good doctor who

> will

> > help me with this protocol. However, I may have to wait months

to

> > see another specialist, and he/she will probably shrug off my

> > suggestion and try to put me back on TRT, which I do not need!

> >

> > What do you suggest I do? Should I wait it out a bit longer? If

> so,

> > is there anything that will help 'speed along' the HPTA's

> restarting

> > process? I could obtain hCG, Clomid and Nolva on my own and do

my

> > own protocol, but I would rather be supervised during my

treatment.

> >

> > Thanks!

> >

> > - Ken

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken:

You sure to get lots of answers. Take them all (Including mine) with

a grain of salt. I think the best bet is to try to find a Doctor with

more experience in this. If your 'secondary " then Androgel was the

(My amateur two cents) wrong drug to prescribe.

Another option which has worked for me in the past is to either mail

or bring some material for the Doctor to bone up on. I was caught in

the situation where my Testosterone readings were slightly above the

lab lower range but they were using the numbers from 1998 standards.

I brought the AACE guidelines from 2002 and the Age vrs Testosterone

chart from here and my Doctor actualy sat down and read them. I also

brought a copy of a book called " The Testosterone Syndrome " as a gift.

I asked her to tell me if it was good material for me to use or not.

She said " It was " btw. ;-)

While your stuck with low numbers your very apt to feel all those

lousy symptoms. Hang in there and lets hope that treatment can get

your natural system firing correctly. If not you can always go back

to testosterone but don't jump into that without trying everything

else first. There are drawbacks to HRT (probably testicular atrophy,

possible gynocomastia)

>

> Hello,

>

> I am 22 years old with secondary hypogonadism, induced a couple of

> years ago after having lost a lot of weight with an athletics-

> related eating disorder. After recovering from the disorder and

> regaining some weight, I still felt poor and went to see an

> endocrinologist. My T, LH and FSH levels were all low, indicating

> secondary hypogonadism. I was put on Androgel 5g for a few months,

> managed to gain a few more pounds in the gym, but my T levels were

> still low. I increased to 10g, added further mass, and got my T

> levels within range.

>

> I was confident after a pituitary scan turned up negative that my

> HPTA could kick back in, and I tapered off of TRT last fall. After

> feeling like junk, I desperately went back to the doc and requested

> a protocol of hCG/Clomid/Nolva to kick-start my HPTA, but the

> confused endo was under the impression that I wasn't a solveable

> case and decided to put me on injections. In January of this year,

> he called me up with results from bloodwork that I had done after my

> earlier time off of TRT and told me that I was right, my HPTA would

> eventually kick in, and asked me to taper off of injections.

>

> Right now, I have been TRT free since February, but my latest blood

> work isn't very impressive:

>

> STSH: 2.23 (0.35-5.00 mU/L)

> LH: 3.0 (1-9 IU/L)

> FSH: 3.0 (1-14 IU/L)

> TESTOSTERONE: 11.1 (8.0-38.0 nmol/L)

> PROLACTIN: 7.0 (< 18 ug/L)

> FREE TESTOSTERONE: 15.9 (40.0-85.0 pmol/L)

>

> Clearly my HPTA is still in remission. Although there are days where

> my sexual function works (with much coaxing) and my workouts are

> good and although I am a generally chipper guy, I still feel tired

> most of the time and my libido is waning. I know it takes a while

> for the HPTA to kick back in (especially considering it was shut

> down for two years), but am I wrong to believe that I should do a

> protocol of hCG/Clomid/Nolva to kick-start my system?

>

> I live in Canada and I have been looking for a good doctor who will

> help me with this protocol. However, I may have to wait months to

> see another specialist, and he/she will probably shrug off my

> suggestion and try to put me back on TRT, which I do not need!

>

> What do you suggest I do? Should I wait it out a bit longer? If so,

> is there anything that will help 'speed along' the HPTA's restarting

> process? I could obtain hCG, Clomid and Nolva on my own and do my

> own protocol, but I would rather be supervised during my treatment.

>

> Thanks!

>

> - Ken

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Ken - welcome to the group. This is not my area of expertise so I rely on

what I have read. Body builders typically have to restart their HPTA following

cycles of steroid use so it makes since to me if you have not damaged one of

your organs that you too should be able to restart especially at your age.

Listed below is a post from intense training. It describes how they use clomid

to restart and why. You may want to investigate this further before pursuing it.

Good Luck and keep us posted -

Arkansas

This is from slat1. Lots of good info, seems to cover everything.

Why Bodybuilders Use Clomid

Clomid is a generic name for Clomiphene Citrate and is a synthetic oestrogen. It

is prescribed medically to aid ovulation in low fertility females. Another

generic name is Serophene.

Most anabolic steroids, especially the androgens, cause inhibition of the body's

own testosterone production. When a bodybuilder comes off a steroid cycle,

natural testosterone production is zero and the levels of the steroids taken in

the blood are diminishing. This leaves the ratios of catabolic : anabolic

hormones in the blood high, hence the body is in a state of catabolism, and, as

a result, much of the muscle tissue that was gained on the cycle is now going to

be lost.

Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to, in turn stimulant the anterior pituitary

gland (aka hypophysis) to release gonadotrophic hormones. The gonadotrophic

hormones are follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH -

aka interstitial cell stimulating hormone (ICSH)). FSH stimulates the testes to

produce more testosterone, and LH stimulates them to secrete more testosterone.

This feedback mechanism is known as the hypothalamic-pituitary-testes axis

(HPTA), and results in an increase of the body's own testosterone production and

blood levels rise, to, in part, compensate for the diminishing levels of

exogenous steroids. This is vital to minimise post cycle muscle losses.

Not all steroids do cause shut down of the feedback mechanism. Everyone is

different and you must also take into account how long you have been using a

certain steroid and at what dose in order to determine if you need Clomid or

not.

Clomid also works as an anti-oestrogen. As it's a weak synthetic oestrogen, it

binds to oestrogen receptors on cells blocking them to oestrogen in the blood.

This minimises the negative effects like gynecomastia and water retention that

may be a result of oestrogen that has aromatised from testosterone.

It's effect as an anti-oestrogen are quite weak though, and it should not be

relied upon if you are going to be using androgenic steroids that aromatise at a

rapid rate, or if you are pre-disposed to gynecomastia. Arimidex and Nolvadex

(Tamoxifen) are far more effective anti-oestrogens.

Important note: Clomid does not, as is often thought, stimulate the release of

natural testosterone, but rather works at reducing the oestrogenic inhibition

caused by the steroid cycle. It does this in a similar manner to the way it and

Nolvadex block oestrogen receptors in nipples to combat gyno development, i.e.

by blocking the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary thus

reducing the inhibition from the elevated oestrogen. This allows LH levels to

return to normal, or even above normal levels, and in turn, natural testosterone

levels to also normalise.

Inhibition of the HPTA is caused by either elevated androgen, oestrogen or

progesterone levels. On cessation of the steroid cycle, androgen levels begin to

fall and Clomid dosing is normally commenced according to the half-life of the

longest acting drug in the system (see below).

This may also explain the reason individuals often find post-deca recovery more

difficult, as the progesterone presence is untouched by the Clomid. We know that

Clomid and Nolvadex (being very similar chemically) are both ineffective with

regard to reducing progesterone related gyno, so it is reasonable to assume that

Clomid has little effect against progesterone levels.

ken_gildner <kengildner@...> wrote:

Hello,

I am 22 years old with secondary hypogonadism, induced a couple of

years ago after having lost a lot of weight with an athletics-

related eating disorder. After recovering from the disorder and

regaining some weight, I still felt poor and went to see an

endocrinologist. My T, LH and FSH levels were all low, indicating

secondary hypogonadism. I was put on Androgel 5g for a few months,

managed to gain a few more pounds in the gym, but my T levels were

still low. I increased to 10g, added further mass, and got my T

levels within range.

I was confident after a pituitary scan turned up negative that my

HPTA could kick back in, and I tapered off of TRT last fall. After

feeling like junk, I desperately went back to the doc and requested

a protocol of hCG/Clomid/Nolva to kick-start my HPTA, but the

confused endo was under the impression that I wasn't a solveable

case and decided to put me on injections. In January of this year,

he called me up with results from bloodwork that I had done after my

earlier time off of TRT and told me that I was right, my HPTA would

eventually kick in, and asked me to taper off of injections.

Right now, I have been TRT free since February, but my latest blood

work isn't very impressive:

STSH: 2.23 (0.35-5.00 mU/L)

LH: 3.0 (1-9 IU/L)

FSH: 3.0 (1-14 IU/L)

TESTOSTERONE: 11.1 (8.0-38.0 nmol/L)

PROLACTIN: 7.0 (< 18 ug/L)

FREE TESTOSTERONE: 15.9 (40.0-85.0 pmol/L)

Clearly my HPTA is still in remission. Although there are days where

my sexual function works (with much coaxing) and my workouts are

good and although I am a generally chipper guy, I still feel tired

most of the time and my libido is waning. I know it takes a while

for the HPTA to kick back in (especially considering it was shut

down for two years), but am I wrong to believe that I should do a

protocol of hCG/Clomid/Nolva to kick-start my system?

I live in Canada and I have been looking for a good doctor who will

help me with this protocol. However, I may have to wait months to

see another specialist, and he/she will probably shrug off my

suggestion and try to put me back on TRT, which I do not need!

What do you suggest I do? Should I wait it out a bit longer? If so,

is there anything that will help 'speed along' the HPTA's restarting

process? I could obtain hCG, Clomid and Nolva on my own and do my

own protocol, but I would rather be supervised during my treatment.

Thanks!

- Ken

---------------------------------

How low will we go? Check out Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the reading material, it's making me consider doing a

standalone Clomid cycle to try to boost my HPTA.

Just curious, however, I have heard that Clomid has a number of

negative side effects. Does it not cause emotions to flare up and

problems with eyesight?

Thanks,

- Ken

>

> Hey Ken - welcome to the group. This is not my area of expertise

so I rely on what I have read. Body builders typically have to

restart their HPTA following cycles of steroid use so it makes since

to me if you have not damaged one of your organs that you too should

be able to restart especially at your age. Listed below is a post

from intense training. It describes how they use clomid to restart

and why. You may want to investigate this further before pursuing

it. Good Luck and keep us posted -

>

> Arkansas

>

> This is from slat1. Lots of good info, seems to cover everything.

>

> Why Bodybuilders Use Clomid

> Clomid is a generic name for Clomiphene Citrate and is a synthetic

oestrogen. It is prescribed medically to aid ovulation in low

fertility females. Another generic name is Serophene.

>

> Most anabolic steroids, especially the androgens, cause inhibition

of the body's own testosterone production. When a bodybuilder comes

off a steroid cycle, natural testosterone production is zero and the

levels of the steroids taken in the blood are diminishing. This

leaves the ratios of catabolic : anabolic hormones in the blood

high, hence the body is in a state of catabolism, and, as a result,

much of the muscle tissue that was gained on the cycle is now going

to be lost.

>

> Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to, in turn stimulant the

anterior pituitary gland (aka hypophysis) to release gonadotrophic

hormones. The gonadotrophic hormones are follicle stimulating

hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH - aka interstitial cell

stimulating hormone (ICSH)). FSH stimulates the testes to produce

more testosterone, and LH stimulates them to secrete more

testosterone. This feedback mechanism is known as the hypothalamic-

pituitary-testes axis (HPTA), and results in an increase of the

body's own testosterone production and blood levels rise, to, in

part, compensate for the diminishing levels of exogenous steroids.

This is vital to minimise post cycle muscle losses.

>

> Not all steroids do cause shut down of the feedback mechanism.

Everyone is different and you must also take into account how long

you have been using a certain steroid and at what dose in order to

determine if you need Clomid or not.

>

> Clomid also works as an anti-oestrogen. As it's a weak synthetic

oestrogen, it binds to oestrogen receptors on cells blocking them to

oestrogen in the blood. This minimises the negative effects like

gynecomastia and water retention that may be a result of oestrogen

that has aromatised from testosterone.

>

> It's effect as an anti-oestrogen are quite weak though, and it

should not be relied upon if you are going to be using androgenic

steroids that aromatise at a rapid rate, or if you are pre-disposed

to gynecomastia. Arimidex and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) are far more

effective anti-oestrogens.

>

> Important note: Clomid does not, as is often thought, stimulate

the release of natural testosterone, but rather works at reducing

the oestrogenic inhibition caused by the steroid cycle. It does this

in a similar manner to the way it and Nolvadex block oestrogen

receptors in nipples to combat gyno development, i.e. by blocking

the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary thus

reducing the inhibition from the elevated oestrogen. This allows LH

levels to return to normal, or even above normal levels, and in

turn, natural testosterone levels to also normalise.

>

> Inhibition of the HPTA is caused by either elevated androgen,

oestrogen or progesterone levels. On cessation of the steroid cycle,

androgen levels begin to fall and Clomid dosing is normally

commenced according to the half-life of the longest acting drug in

the system (see below).

>

> This may also explain the reason individuals often find post-deca

recovery more difficult, as the progesterone presence is untouched

by the Clomid. We know that Clomid and Nolvadex (being very similar

chemically) are both ineffective with regard to reducing

progesterone related gyno, so it is reasonable to assume that Clomid

has little effect against progesterone levels.

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, . I will bring in some reading info for the next

specialist that I see and I'll be sure to hang tough. It makes sense

that my HPTA doesn't want to kick back in so quickly as it has been

shut down for over two years.

- Ken

>

> Hi Ken:

>

> You sure to get lots of answers. Take them all (Including mine)

with

> a grain of salt. I think the best bet is to try to find a Doctor

with

> more experience in this. If your 'secondary " then Androgel was the

> (My amateur two cents) wrong drug to prescribe.

>

> Another option which has worked for me in the past is to either

mail

> or bring some material for the Doctor to bone up on. I was caught

in

> the situation where my Testosterone readings were slightly above

the

> lab lower range but they were using the numbers from 1998

standards.

> I brought the AACE guidelines from 2002 and the Age vrs

Testosterone

> chart from here and my Doctor actualy sat down and read them. I

also

> brought a copy of a book called " The Testosterone Syndrome " as a

gift.

> I asked her to tell me if it was good material for me to use or

not.

> She said " It was " btw. ;-)

>

> While your stuck with low numbers your very apt to feel all those

> lousy symptoms. Hang in there and lets hope that treatment can get

> your natural system firing correctly. If not you can always go

back

> to testosterone but don't jump into that without trying everything

> else first. There are drawbacks to HRT (probably testicular

atrophy,

> possible gynocomastia)

>