Re: On treatment and still feeling crappy?

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

You need to test other things here is a list from this link.

http://tinyurl.com/3a3cm9

I don't know if they told you why your levels were low are you Primary meaning

your testis can make enough or Secondary meaning you have a Pituitary Problem

this would need an MRI to rule out a tumor.

I went 23 yrs being told I am Primary 2 yrs. ago I figured it out I am

Seconday and it's due to a head injury. Now looking back at all of my labs we

seen they were screaming this. My Cortisol, Thyroid, Aldosterone, DHEA and

Ferritin levels were all low normal. Just 3 months ago my Ferritin levels

checked out below normal now I am on Iron pill and for the first time in 25yrs I

don't have fatigue and can breathe.

Today I treat my low Cortisol, Thyroid, Aldosterone, Ferritin and

Testosterone.

One thing I need to tell you you can't test Estrogens Estradiol on Clomid you

need to be off it 4 weeks to test this.

Here is the list.

=====================================================

* TSH But this lab is only for diagnosis of hypopituitary, NOT to diagnose or

dose your hypo by.

* Free T4 and Free T3 (note the word “free”)

* Thyroid Antibodies (anti-TPO and TgAb. YOU NEED BOTH.)

* Ferritin (and do stress FERRITIN, not just RBC)

* Adrenals Cortisol levels (but we strongly recommend saliva tests, not the one

time blood test your doctor will do. See below, because you don’t need a

prescription)

* B-12, Estradiol, DHEA

* Reverse T3

Mike <wolfyma@...> wrote:

Hi guys,

It's been a while since I've posted. Long story short: went on Clomid

last summer after 3 blood tests on separate dates revealed low free

testosterone (though low-normal total T - around 380). Clomid raised

my free and total T levels but I felt like crap, very sleepy every

day, depressed, irritable. There was some improvement in sexual side

effects including morning erections and more reliable orgasms.

Switched to TRT gel in November on the theory that maybe the Clomid

was causing the issues. But here I am in late Feb after 3 months on

TRT and the sleepiness and depression continue. It's very weird. I

sometimes start the day feeling great, good mood, energetic. But by

mid-afternoon it's like a switch goes off.

Has anyone else experienced this? My doc said my E2 levels were very

low while on Clomid (but I didn't get the exact reading). I'm guessing

they're higher now since I'm on Testim, but the same symptoms

continue. Doc also ruled out infection and apnea as causes of the fatigue.

Can testosterone trigger or worsen depression? I'm pretty disappointed

since I was expecting to feel generally hornier and in a better mood

more often than not. But instead, I'm marginally better in terms of

sexual functioning but much more prone to depressed episodes and mood

swings.

Any insights you could offer would be appreciated, especially if

you've experienced this yourself. I've got a follow up with my

urologist next month and am in contact with my primary care about

continuing to rule out other stuff...

Thanks,

Mike

Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. "

Phil

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Philip. I'll try bringing these tests to my docs attention.

Last spring, before going on any treatment, I went to an endo to see

if the exact cause of the low free T could be determined. She gave me

a thorough workup, (including, if I recall many if not all of the

items you noted) and all tests came back normal. She even recommended

against going on TRT. So according to the labs, I don't have either

type of hypogonadism.

Note that my more severe symptoms of tiredness and depression did not

kick in until after starting Clomid/TRT.

Still, I appreciate the advice.

Mike

> Hi guys,

>

> It's been a while since I've posted. Long story short: went on Clomid

> last summer after 3 blood tests on separate dates revealed low free

> testosterone (though low-normal total T - around 380). Clomid raised

> my free and total T levels but I felt like crap, very sleepy every

> day, depressed, irritable. There was some improvement in sexual side

> effects including morning erections and more reliable orgasms.

>

> Switched to TRT gel in November on the theory that maybe the Clomid

> was causing the issues. But here I am in late Feb after 3 months on

> TRT and the sleepiness and depression continue. It's very weird. I

> sometimes start the day feeling great, good mood, energetic. But by

> mid-afternoon it's like a switch goes off.

>

> Has anyone else experienced this? My doc said my E2 levels were very

> low while on Clomid (but I didn't get the exact reading). I'm guessing

> they're higher now since I'm on Testim, but the same symptoms

> continue. Doc also ruled out infection and apnea as causes of the

fatigue.

>

> Can testosterone trigger or worsen depression? I'm pretty disappointed

> since I was expecting to feel generally hornier and in a better mood

> more often than not. But instead, I'm marginally better in terms of

> sexual functioning but much more prone to depressed episodes and mood

> swings.

>

> Any insights you could offer would be appreciated, especially if

> you've experienced this yourself. I've got a follow up with my

> urologist next month and am in contact with my primary care about

> continuing to rule out other stuff...

>

> Thanks,

>

> Mike

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what

you see. "

> Phil

>

> ---------------------------------

> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile.

Try it now.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mike,

When I found a suitable level on Clomid, I found that my depression,

moodiness and anxiety went away (along with sluggishness, memory

issues, tummy/hip lbs., and lack of muscle). I take 37.5mgs. every

other day and my levels have been consistently in the 900's.

I am quite pleased at how well and healthy that I feel.

Clomid for me was a last option, after having failed on gels, patches

and shots...

Blessings,

Bill

>

> Hi guys,

>

> It's been a while since I've posted. Long story short: went on Clomid

> last summer after 3 blood tests on separate dates revealed low free

> testosterone (though low-normal total T - around 380). Clomid raised

> my free and total T levels but I felt like crap, very sleepy every

> day, depressed, irritable. There was some improvement in sexual side

> effects including morning erections and more reliable orgasms.

>

> Switched to TRT gel in November on the theory that maybe the Clomid

> was causing the issues. But here I am in late Feb after 3 months on

> TRT and the sleepiness and depression continue. It's very weird. I

> sometimes start the day feeling great, good mood, energetic. But by

> mid-afternoon it's like a switch goes off.

>

> Has anyone else experienced this? My doc said my E2 levels were very

> low while on Clomid (but I didn't get the exact reading). I'm guessing

> they're higher now since I'm on Testim, but the same symptoms

> continue. Doc also ruled out infection and apnea as causes of the

fatigue.

>

> Can testosterone trigger or worsen depression? I'm pretty disappointed

> since I was expecting to feel generally hornier and in a better mood

> more often than not. But instead, I'm marginally better in terms of

> sexual functioning but much more prone to depressed episodes and mood

> swings.

>

> Any insights you could offer would be appreciated, especially if

> you've experienced this yourself. I've got a follow up with my

> urologist next month and am in contact with my primary care about

> continuing to rule out other stuff...

>

> Thanks,

>

> Mike

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Bill.

I'm curious though, did you have these symptoms before starting any

testosterone-related treatment? Did you feel that the failed

treatments worsened them? Or did they just fail to provide relief

until you found the right dosage of Clomid?

My issue is that I feel crappy *since* starting testosterone

treatment. I actually felt better before starting anything.

Mike

> >

> > Hi guys,

> >

> > It's been a while since I've posted. Long story short: went on Clomid

> > last summer after 3 blood tests on separate dates revealed low free

> > testosterone (though low-normal total T - around 380). Clomid raised

> > my free and total T levels but I felt like crap, very sleepy every

> > day, depressed, irritable. There was some improvement in sexual side

> > effects including morning erections and more reliable orgasms.

> >

> > Switched to TRT gel in November on the theory that maybe the Clomid

> > was causing the issues. But here I am in late Feb after 3 months on

> > TRT and the sleepiness and depression continue. It's very weird. I

> > sometimes start the day feeling great, good mood, energetic. But by

> > mid-afternoon it's like a switch goes off.

> >

> > Has anyone else experienced this? My doc said my E2 levels were very

> > low while on Clomid (but I didn't get the exact reading). I'm guessing

> > they're higher now since I'm on Testim, but the same symptoms

> > continue. Doc also ruled out infection and apnea as causes of the

> fatigue.

> >

> > Can testosterone trigger or worsen depression? I'm pretty disappointed

> > since I was expecting to feel generally hornier and in a better mood

> > more often than not. But instead, I'm marginally better in terms of

> > sexual functioning but much more prone to depressed episodes and mood

> > swings.

> >

> > Any insights you could offer would be appreciated, especially if

> > you've experienced this yourself. I've got a follow up with my

> > urologist next month and am in contact with my primary care about

> > continuing to rule out other stuff...

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Mike

> >

>

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:35:41 -0000, you wrote:

>Thanks, Bill.

>

>I'm curious though, did you have these symptoms before starting any

>testosterone-related treatment? Did you feel that the failed

>treatments worsened them? Or did they just fail to provide relief

>until you found the right dosage of Clomid?

>

>My issue is that I feel crappy *since* starting testosterone

>treatment. I actually felt better before starting anything.

That happens sometimes when E2 levels rise with TRT.

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I had little to no reaction to the gels and patches, but some with the

shots. Most symptoms continued.

Perhaps the symptoms " seemed " to get worse, because I was so focused

on the meds. working - maybe a bit over-sensitized to the symptoms and

whether I had them or not.

As retro says, it might be challenges with E2 or the conversion.

How long were you on Clomid? Did anything positive happen while on

it? As Phil asked, do you know if you are secondary or primary?

My overall suggestion is to get yourself affiliated with an endo. at a

leading research hospital, if there is one nearby and get to the

bottom of your symptoms and get all tests. Whatever you do, don't

just suffice for a Prozac prescription and be on your way...it might

be much more complex than that.

Blessings,

Bill

> > >

> > > Hi guys,

> > >

> > > It's been a while since I've posted. Long story short: went on

Clomid

> > > last summer after 3 blood tests on separate dates revealed low free

> > > testosterone (though low-normal total T - around 380). Clomid raised

> > > my free and total T levels but I felt like crap, very sleepy every

> > > day, depressed, irritable. There was some improvement in sexual side

> > > effects including morning erections and more reliable orgasms.

> > >

> > > Switched to TRT gel in November on the theory that maybe the Clomid

> > > was causing the issues. But here I am in late Feb after 3 months on

> > > TRT and the sleepiness and depression continue. It's very weird. I

> > > sometimes start the day feeling great, good mood, energetic. But by

> > > mid-afternoon it's like a switch goes off.

> > >

> > > Has anyone else experienced this? My doc said my E2 levels were very

> > > low while on Clomid (but I didn't get the exact reading). I'm

guessing

> > > they're higher now since I'm on Testim, but the same symptoms

> > > continue. Doc also ruled out infection and apnea as causes of the

> > fatigue.

> > >

> > > Can testosterone trigger or worsen depression? I'm pretty

disappointed

> > > since I was expecting to feel generally hornier and in a better mood

> > > more often than not. But instead, I'm marginally better in terms of

> > > sexual functioning but much more prone to depressed episodes and

mood

> > > swings.

> > >

> > > Any insights you could offer would be appreciated, especially if

> > > you've experienced this yourself. I've got a follow up with my

> > > urologist next month and am in contact with my primary care about

> > > continuing to rule out other stuff...

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > Mike

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:53:55 -0000, you wrote:

>

>Mike,

>

>I had little to no reaction to the gels and patches, but some with the

>shots. Most symptoms continued.

>

>Perhaps the symptoms " seemed " to get worse, because I was so focused

>on the meds. working - maybe a bit over-sensitized to the symptoms and

>whether I had them or not.

>

>As retro says, it might be challenges with E2 or the conversion.

I suggest finding out what the E2 numbers actually are. My

understanding is they go up considerably on Clomid. The doctor's

contention that they're low or normal in that context may not mean

they're too low for negative effects.

[Guest guest]

I agree with retro about the E2 conversion process. As I've said in the past, my

doctor has primary hypogonadism like me (and many of us here) and is probably

still doing monthly shots. It's his initial prescription for his patients when

patches and gels don't work.

However, he doesn't aromatize his testosterone injections like I did on

monthly shots. For whatever reason he doesn't become symptomatic like I did. I

used to plot graphs of my ups and downs during the month to predict the cycle

between monthly injections. I was able to predict with accuracy when I would dip

and when I would recover. Sometimes I would get pretty sick during the low

period.

So here I was on TRT and for the life of me I couldn't figure out why I was

getting sick all of the time. My cure wasn't a great deal better than my

illness.

Then turned me on to some writing by Dr. that hit the nail on the

head. So did Dr. Shippen in his book. When testosterone aromatizes into

estradiol and finds its way into testosterone cell receptors this can give men

the worst of issues. Symptoms vary but they all have one thing in common:

They're all bad.

Definately get the E2 looked at on your next testosterone check. Post the

numbers. I told my doctor that E2 management is just as important as managing

your testosterone. You may want to consider another form of TRT as well.

retrogrouch@... wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:53:55 -0000, you wrote:

>

>Mike,

>

>I had little to no reaction to the gels and patches, but some with the

>shots. Most symptoms continued.

>

>Perhaps the symptoms " seemed " to get worse, because I was so focused

>on the meds. working - maybe a bit over-sensitized to the symptoms and

>whether I had them or not.

>

>As retro says, it might be challenges with E2 or the conversion.

I suggest finding out what the E2 numbers actually are. My

understanding is they go up considerably on Clomid. The doctor's

contention that they're low or normal in that context may not mean

they're too low for negative effects.

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

To Test Estradiol you need to be off Clomid 4 weeks.

retrogrouch@... wrote: On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:53:55 -0000, you

wrote:

>

>Mike,

>

>I had little to no reaction to the gels and patches, but some with the

>shots. Most symptoms continued.

>

>Perhaps the symptoms " seemed " to get worse, because I was so focused

>on the meds. working - maybe a bit over-sensitized to the symptoms and

>whether I had them or not.

>

>As retro says, it might be challenges with E2 or the conversion.

I suggest finding out what the E2 numbers actually are. My

understanding is they go up considerably on Clomid. The doctor's

contention that they're low or normal in that context may not mean

they're too low for negative effects.

Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. "

Phil

---------------------------------

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search.