Re: Arimidex- SHBG and low SHBG and testosterone

[Guest guest]

I am in no way saying your Stupid or Dogmatic and never will say this to

anyone. I have the up most respect for you and you knowledge about

Hypogonadism. I sent you a post after this one showing more info. Yes there

SHBG did not go down a lot. If you do a ctrl + f and type in SHBG you will find

it in that link. The Second link I sent you is dam hard to find anymore on the

net but it shows that as E2 goes up so does SHBG and they site where they got

the info at the bottom of the link. It also states SHBG comes down as you get

E2 down. I don't know if there info is from study's. And I have no Idea where

this is going. I all ready told you that I should have said lowing E2 could

lower SHBG or are you saying it can't.

Phil

chis_az <chis_az@...> wrote:

Sorry but I felt I needed to post this separately because A) it does

not actually relate to DIM at all and because it can get difficult

to know exactly what to respond to sometimes in the structure of

posts and things can go astray.

Anyway my first point and that of SHBG….

Phil I did not notice that quote anywhere in the link you provided

regarding SHBG levels being lowered. However I would still say this;

A drop from 38 to 34 nmol/l means very little across a group of men

and in fact is not particularly helpful to most men who have high

SHBG levels that require lowering.

If you have 10 pints of beer and have something to eat, it will

reduce alcohol levels in the blood. But not that does not mean you

can go and jump in your car and drive. The information you have

given shows SHBG was lowered in that group, but that does not mean it

has been lowered in any significant medical sense.

So although it is possible to argue whether one source with one set

of men equates to proof etc, I think the main point is that arimidex

simply is not the drug of choice for men that require SHBG to be

lowered and the principle mechanism of action of arimidex is not the

lowering of SHBG, but in fact estradiol.

If a man has elevated SHBG he has to look at other medications.

I say this with the caveat of nothing coming to light that proves

otherwise. I am not stupid or dogmatic, if something shows me

otherwise then I will think otherwise. But for now the above are my

thoughts.

Regarding sex steroids and them not being differentiated by the

Hypothalamus. I hope people did see the Shippen reference- buy the

Testosterone Syndrome and you will find it in chapter 5.

I have also read the same many, many times in highly qualified

medical papers and sources. But like I said, I cannot bring them to

the fore because I only read them for my own benefit and did not

retain them.

Second point and that of SHBG generally;

What I think might be important for one of the guys to know (sorry I

am not sure who it was- the site has been a bit odd today and I have

not viewed the posts as I normally would) and it is this;

If you have low SHBG then you are more likely to have high free

testosterone, not low free testosterone (although that is not

automatic)

The problem is with low SHBG you are also more likely to have high

free estradiol and this on its own, irrespective of the free

testosterone level can cause emotional problems and gynecomastia..

Too many people view estradiol only in relation to testosterone and

the balance/ratio. But I am sure that high estradiol is an issue

independently of testosterone (just as almost all hormones in excess

are a problem).

Testosterone binds to testosterone in the body and makes it inactive,

it also it binds to less estradiol doing the same, albeit with less

affinity.

High SHBG level and you have a low free testostreone level and a low

free estradiol level, the free testosterone is comparatively the

lower of the two and testosterone is the issue. With a low SHBG

level you have a high free testosterone level, but also a high free

estradiol level and the latter is a problem.

I have also heard it argued that low SHBG cause problems relating to

testosterone's half life and the lowering thereof, but I have not

seen any evidence of this..

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[Guest guest]

And what medications would that include?

> If a man has elevated SHBG he has to look at other medications.

[Guest guest]

Phil,

I know that you weren't saying I was dogmatic or stupid, I was joking

about and that sometimes doesn't come across on a message board. I

was basically saying that saying that I have a difference of opinion

based on what knowledge and sources I have read, but I am always

willing to change my opinion if showed compelling evidence.

I am not sure what post you are referring to about additional

information, I seem to have missed that one and you would need to run

it by me again.

You said quote

The Second link I sent you is dam hard to find anymore on the

net but it shows that as E2 goes up so does SHBG and they site where

they got

the info at the bottom of the link.

Unquote

What I have tried to explain is the the relationship between SHBG and

estradiol is not linear. It is not uniform. Although SHBG may go up

in some men with elevations in estradiol in other men it does not-

very probably because of the interactions and complex relationships

between a variety of hormones.

e.g

I have very high estradiol off treatment (70pg/ml without arimidex),

but my SHBG is and always has been very low 11nmol/l). I know of

other men who have exactly the same problem.

Also even if you could prove that SHBG increased more often than not

(something I still do not see evidence for) when E2 increased, that

does not mean that reducing E2 will automatically result in

statistically significant reductions in SHBG. Such assumptions are

wrong and until I see evidence that shows significant lowering of

SHBG as a result of lowering E2 via arimides then I cannto agree that

arimidex is helpful if you have high SHBG.

Also what would some do if the had high SHBG and low estradiol. Even

if arimidex worked at lowering SHBG- which to my mind it does not,

how could you use it to lower SHBG given the fact that it would also

lower E2 and cause low estradiol which is a problem as bad as low

testosterone?

No for me I do not agree that arimidex is helpful in the lowering of

SHBG- not until I am convinced otherwise with very compelling

evidence- so far as see no such evidence.

I am not aware of any men with high SHBG who have found relief via

arimides….

wayback44,

As far as I iknow Danazol is supposed to be effective at lowering

SHBG.

Also differing modalities of TRT affect the level of SHBG. If SHBG

is a problem then it is best to choose a mode of treatment that

results in lower SHBG, something you would need to talk to your

endocrinologist about.

>

> > If a man has elevated SHBG he has to look at other medications.

>

[Guest guest]

All is good I don't feel Arimidex did this I feel getting E2 down for me

and other men there SHBG came down and There Free T went up.

Phil

chis_az <chis_az@...> wrote:

Phil,

I know that you weren't saying I was dogmatic or stupid, I was joking

about and that sometimes doesn't come across on a message board. I

was basically saying that saying that I have a difference of opinion

based on what knowledge and sources I have read, but I am always

willing to change my opinion if showed compelling evidence.

I am not sure what post you are referring to about additional

information, I seem to have missed that one and you would need to run

it by me again.

You said quote

The Second link I sent you is dam hard to find anymore on the

net but it shows that as E2 goes up so does SHBG and they site where

they got

the info at the bottom of the link.

Unquote

What I have tried to explain is the the relationship between SHBG and

estradiol is not linear. It is not uniform. Although SHBG may go up

in some men with elevations in estradiol in other men it does not-

very probably because of the interactions and complex relationships

between a variety of hormones.

e.g

I have very high estradiol off treatment (70pg/ml without arimidex),

but my SHBG is and always has been very low 11nmol/l). I know of

other men who have exactly the same problem.

Also even if you could prove that SHBG increased more often than not

(something I still do not see evidence for) when E2 increased, that

does not mean that reducing E2 will automatically result in

statistically significant reductions in SHBG. Such assumptions are

wrong and until I see evidence that shows significant lowering of

SHBG as a result of lowering E2 via arimides then I cannto agree that

arimidex is helpful if you have high SHBG.

Also what would some do if the had high SHBG and low estradiol. Even

if arimidex worked at lowering SHBG- which to my mind it does not,

how could you use it to lower SHBG given the fact that it would also

lower E2 and cause low estradiol which is a problem as bad as low

testosterone?

No for me I do not agree that arimidex is helpful in the lowering of

SHBG- not until I am convinced otherwise with very compelling

evidence- so far as see no such evidence.

I am not aware of any men with high SHBG who have found relief via

arimides….

wayback44,

As far as I iknow Danazol is supposed to be effective at lowering

SHBG.

Also differing modalities of TRT affect the level of SHBG. If SHBG

is a problem then it is best to choose a mode of treatment that

results in lower SHBG, something you would need to talk to your

endocrinologist about.

>

> > If a man has elevated SHBG he has to look at other medications.

>

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Very, very interesting Chris.

I am the one with the low SHBG, very low. I have odd symptoms when I get an

injection dependent upon the time of the injection if you can believe it.

What I experience is a hot rush and and a foggy kind of world. If I get the

injection in the morning it is very strong. The later in the day the less of

an effect. My first thought is that my T is high in the morning and it gets

very high the day of the injection. The waiting allows the T to lower

naturally, diurnal rhythm I believe.

You said that you may have read somewhere that low SHBG lowers the halflife.

Maybe I am getting a super rush. I can tell you that I can feel the

testosterone in my muscles immediately after, within 15 minutes I feel like

flexing

and things twich a bit.

My doctor wanted me to get a test of the blood the minute I feel foggy and

hot. I may just continue along this line. The other is to test for hypothyroid

because this can cause low SHBG I have read. The other is insuline

insensitivity - my blood sugar seems fine. I have asked my doc to consult with

Dr.

on my situation. I will see him this week.

Anyway, very interesting and thanks everybody for joining in on this one.

I will post what I find out.

Louis

[Guest guest]

<snip>

I have been trying to follow this debate about DIM & Arimidex lowering

E2, but it is over my head.

I though they each just prevented testosterone from being converted

into E2, not actually lower E2.

Did I miss something?

If they prevent testosterone from being converted into E2 then the

existing testosterone should be higher, unless it is dumped somehow.

[Guest guest]

Gin2c,

Go to the Life Extesnion Foundation web site and read some the

extensive discussions and study results about DIM and Indole-

Carbinole3. You will get a much better feel for the substances.

Vickie

In , gin2c <no_reply@...> wrote:

>

> <snip>

>

> I have been trying to follow this debate about DIM & Arimidex

lowering

> E2, but it is over my head.

>

> I though they each just prevented testosterone from being

converted

> into E2, not actually lower E2.

>

> Did I miss something?

>

> If they prevent testosterone from being converted into E2 then the

> existing testosterone should be higher, unless it is dumped

somehow.

>

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 19:03:54 -0000, you wrote:

><snip>

>

>I have been trying to follow this debate about DIM & Arimidex lowering

>E2, but it is over my head.

>

>I though they each just prevented testosterone from being converted

>into E2, not actually lower E2.

>

>Did I miss something?

>

>If they prevent testosterone from being converted into E2 then the

>existing testosterone should be higher, unless it is dumped somehow.

Yes. Arimidex works by preventing conversion.

DIM works by converting E2 to other estrones that can be metabolized

or excreted more readily. The T still converts but E2 does not build

up.

-----

" Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the

power to make you commit atrocities. " - Voltaire

[Guest guest]

Here is a link to a good thread on Low SHBG with some input by Dr.'s that post

there.

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/shbg-non-existant-134248807.htm\

l

louislarocque@... wrote:

Very, very interesting Chris.

I am the one with the low SHBG, very low. I have odd symptoms when I get an

injection dependent upon the time of the injection if you can believe it.

What I experience is a hot rush and and a foggy kind of world. If I get the

injection in the morning it is very strong. The later in the day the less of

an effect. My first thought is that my T is high in the morning and it gets

very high the day of the injection. The waiting allows the T to lower

naturally, diurnal rhythm I believe.

You said that you may have read somewhere that low SHBG lowers the halflife.

Maybe I am getting a super rush. I can tell you that I can feel the

testosterone in my muscles immediately after, within 15 minutes I feel like

flexing

and things twich a bit.

My doctor wanted me to get a test of the blood the minute I feel foggy and

hot. I may just continue along this line. The other is to test for hypothyroid

because this can cause low SHBG I have read. The other is insuline

insensitivity - my blood sugar seems fine. I have asked my doc to consult with

Dr.

on my situation. I will see him this week.

Anyway, very interesting and thanks everybody for joining in on this one.

I will post what I find out.

Louis

[Guest guest]

Some of your logic is good as far as I seen it within the constaits

of my knowledge.

If you have an injection earlier in the day and your testicles are

producing anything at all, it would be at its highest at that point

due to the natural cicadian hormonal rhythm (even if you only have

partial response).

So it could weel be true that free testosterone is high at that point.

I also understand what you are saying regarding the possibility of

hypothyroidism and insulin problems and low SHBG. You have read some

good sources to poin in this direction.

However

I know a lot of guys with low SHBG who have real problems with TRT

and they do not have hypothyroidism (good free T3 free T4, no thyroid

antibodies, ok TSH and ok cortisol- also good blood sugar

levels/glucose tolerance etc).

Interestingly we test for free testosterone- but NOT free estradiol.

Although free testosterone binds to SHBG and does so with greater

affinity than estradiol;

Which means that the greater the SHBG the worse the androgen to

estrogen ratio.

I honestly thin that low SHBG results in very high estardiol levels

and I believe that this is a problem for men with low SHBG

irrespective of their free testosterone levels.

I never said this before, but given you have brought it up I am going

to say it now.

Thios exact theory/point of view has just been stated by Dr .

I put this opinion to Dr before he said anything about it over a

year ago, in fact he had no answer one way or another about this

theory of mine at the time. I came up with this point of view as a

theory way over a year before it was considered by any andrologist or

endocrinologists in the world.

If you can check this forum you will find what I am saying is true.

I was even on the track regarding this matter way back here

http://www.globalandropause.com/forum/search_frm.htm

type shbg and start search

click on Re SHBG

P.S

A shot in te dark and I might be wrong. But would do you have

gynecomastia, ED and low libido? Or at least some of those issues?

>

> ><snip>

> >

> >I have been trying to follow this debate about DIM & Arimidex

lowering

> >E2, but it is over my head.

> >

> >I though they each just prevented testosterone from being

converted

> >into E2, not actually lower E2.

> >

> >Did I miss something?

> >

> >If they prevent testosterone from being converted into E2 then the

> >existing testosterone should be higher, unless it is dumped

somehow.

>

>

> Yes. Arimidex works by preventing conversion.

> DIM works by converting E2 to other estrones that can be metabolized

> or excreted more readily. The T still converts but E2 does not build

> up.

> -----

> " Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the

> power to make you commit atrocities. " - Voltaire

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think think that link offers any new insight ino the issue

Phil....sorry because I know that makes me sound a so and so.

> Very, very interesting Chris.

>

> I am the one with the low SHBG, very low. I have odd symptoms when

I get an

> injection dependent upon the time of the injection if you can

believe it.

>

> What I experience is a hot rush and and a foggy kind of world. If I

get the

> injection in the morning it is very strong. The later in the day

the less of

> an effect. My first thought is that my T is high in the morning and

it gets

> very high the day of the injection. The waiting allows the T to

lower

> naturally, diurnal rhythm I believe.

>

> You said that you may have read somewhere that low SHBG lowers the

halflife.

> Maybe I am getting a super rush. I can tell you that I can feel the

> testosterone in my muscles immediately after, within 15 minutes I

feel like flexing

> and things twich a bit.

>

> My doctor wanted me to get a test of the blood the minute I feel

foggy and

> hot. I may just continue along this line. The other is to test for

hypothyroid

> because this can cause low SHBG I have read. The other is insuline

> insensitivity - my blood sugar seems fine. I have asked my doc to

consult with Dr.

> on my situation. I will see him this week.

>

> Anyway, very interesting and thanks everybody for joining in on

this one.

>

> I will post what I find out.

>

> Louis

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

<snip>.

>

>

> Yes. Arimidex works by preventing conversion.

So if it prevents conversion then all the testosterone remains as

testosterone??

> DIM works by converting E2 to other estrones that can be metabolized

> or excreted more readily. The T still converts but E2 does not build

> up.

So some of the " T " is converted to E2 then the E2 is disposed and

the " T " is now lower??

Is this the way they work??

> -----

> " Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the

> power to make you commit atrocities. " - Voltaire

>

[Guest guest]

my Dr. now has me check SHBG on my tests because of what Dr. said

about lower SHBG and levels of E2 with it. Also I understand Dr. Shippen does

not check for Free T but checks SHBG and uses a chart that has SHBG on one side

and Total T on the other. You draw a ling accorss to get your Free T. It uses

an avg. albumin value of 43g/l. It is called " Nomogram for Calculating Free

Testosterone from Total Testosterone (TT) to that for SHBG, and Sex

Hormone-Binding Globuin (SHBG). Don't you guys use this in the UK do you know

anything about it.

Phil

chis_az <chis_az@...> wrote:

Some of your logic is good as far as I seen it within the constaits

of my knowledge.

If you have an injection earlier in the day and your testicles are

producing anything at all, it would be at its highest at that point

due to the natural cicadian hormonal rhythm (even if you only have

partial response).

So it could weel be true that free testosterone is high at that point.

I also understand what you are saying regarding the possibility of

hypothyroidism and insulin problems and low SHBG. You have read some

good sources to poin in this direction.

However

I know a lot of guys with low SHBG who have real problems with TRT

and they do not have hypothyroidism (good free T3 free T4, no thyroid

antibodies, ok TSH and ok cortisol- also good blood sugar

levels/glucose tolerance etc).

Interestingly we test for free testosterone- but NOT free estradiol.

Although free testosterone binds to SHBG and does so with greater

affinity than estradiol;

Which means that the greater the SHBG the worse the androgen to

estrogen ratio.

I honestly thin that low SHBG results in very high estardiol levels

and I believe that this is a problem for men with low SHBG

irrespective of their free testosterone levels.

I never said this before, but given you have brought it up I am going

to say it now.

Thios exact theory/point of view has just been stated by Dr .

I put this opinion to Dr before he said anything about it over a

year ago, in fact he had no answer one way or another about this

theory of mine at the time. I came up with this point of view as a

theory way over a year before it was considered by any andrologist or

endocrinologists in the world.

If you can check this forum you will find what I am saying is true.

I was even on the track regarding this matter way back here

http://www.globalandropause.com/forum/search_frm.htm

type shbg and start search

click on Re SHBG

P.S

A shot in te dark and I might be wrong. But would do you have

gynecomastia, ED and low libido? Or at least some of those issues?

>

> ><snip>

> >

> >I have been trying to follow this debate about DIM & Arimidex

lowering

> >E2, but it is over my head.

> >

> >I though they each just prevented testosterone from being

converted

> >into E2, not actually lower E2.

> >

> >Did I miss something?

> >

> >If they prevent testosterone from being converted into E2 then the

> >existing testosterone should be higher, unless it is dumped

somehow.

>

>

> Yes. Arimidex works by preventing conversion.

> DIM works by converting E2 to other estrones that can be metabolized

> or excreted more readily. The T still converts but E2 does not build

> up.

> -----

> " Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the

> power to make you commit atrocities. " - Voltaire

>

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[Guest guest]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 01:25:04 -0000, you wrote:

>Interestingly we test for free testosterone- but NOT free estradiol.

>

>Although free testosterone binds to SHBG and does so with greater

>affinity than estradiol;

>

>Which means that the greater the SHBG the worse the androgen to

>estrogen ratio.

Free androgen to free E2 more specifically, yes?

>I honestly think that low SHBG results in very high estardiol levels

But high E2 correlates with high SHBG.

http://www.griffinmedical.com/male_hormone_modulation_therapy.html

" One further complication of excess estrogen is that it increases the

body's production of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). "

(I disagree with this articles conclusions however. They note the

correlation between high E2 and high SBHG, but then conclude men's

free T goes down with age because of high SHBG. I would suggest higher

E2 conversion is the culprit. And I believe the age trend is largely

due to the fact that weight gain corresponds with age also.)

>and I believe that this is a problem for men with low SHBG

>irrespective of their free testosterone levels.

I've not been able to find anything on effects of low SBHG. There is

lot's written about too much mSBHG. Perhaps low SBHG results in excess

levels of free T and allows for rapid metabolization of it?

-----

" Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the

power to make you commit atrocities. " - Voltaire

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:40:32 -0000, you wrote:

>

>>

><snip>.

>>

>>

>> Yes. Arimidex works by preventing conversion.

>

>So if it prevents conversion then all the testosterone remains as

>testosterone??

More anyway. Not all. Though conceivably you could take enough to

completely overwhelm aromotase conversion. (Arimidex works by taking

T's place and binding up aromotase..

http://www.arimidex.com/arimidex/how_arimidex_works.asp

>> DIM works by converting E2 to other estrones that can be metabolized

>> or excreted more readily. The T still converts but E2 does not build

>> up.

>

>So some of the " T " is converted to E2 then the E2 is disposed and

>the " T " is now lower??

>

>Is this the way they work??

You've got it. It results in some loss of T, but improves the T to E2

ratio.

While some folks worry (excessively in my opinion) about the T loss, -

DIMs advantages are it is nonprescription, and it's impact reverses

far quicker if you over shoot, and it's cheaper, and most doctors put

up a fight about giving Arimidex to men (it's intended as a breast

cancer drug). Arimidex is powerful medicine, very easy to over shoot.

(With a half life of 48 hours, it tends to accumulate, over time. I've

taken it every other day and crashed. I've taken it every third day

and crashed, it just took a bit longer, and same with every 4th day.

You need to periodically let it clear out, in my opinion.)

All that said, I prefer arimidex as more reliable, and I have a good

drug plan so I don't pay the full price, and I have a DOc who

(begrudgingly) prescribes it.

-----

" Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the

power to make you commit atrocities. " - Voltaire

[Guest guest]

Like I said in one of my prior emails. The theory that low SHBG

results in significantly high free estradiol and that is a problem

irdependently of testosterone is a theory that I came up with way

over a year before it was ever mentioned by Dr . I just never

said this at the time he mentioned it because I wanted to know more

about what he had to say on the matter. In fact I put this very

theory to him many months before he ever mentioned it on the Meso

forum and he had never even though of it being an issue.

Regarding the use of SHBG in calculating free testosterone. The

method you are referring to is known as CT and stems from The

International Society for the Study of the Aging Male (ISSAM) T.Fiers

and J.M. Kaufmann, Department of Endocrinology, Gent University

Hospital, Belgium

If you view the link below you will see that you are able to obtain

your own CT if you have your total testosterone, SHBG and Albumin

levels (click on Interactive: Calculation Free Testosterone).

http://www.get-back-on-

track.com/en/professionals/00_meta/07_praesentationen/p_con_0007_01_03

..php

In all honesty CT is not as accurate a measure of androgen status as

a free testosterone test via equillibriem dialysis which is the gold

standard of testosterone assays. Also you have to remember that CT

is not a measurement of actual free testosterone, rather it is a

calculatred and probable free testosterone level. It is

theoretically what your free testosterone might be. IU can however

be wrong if DHT is high or if estradiol is high.

If your free testosterone assay is reliable then that is a superior

assessment of free testosterone.

On that link I gave you it states this relating to CT;

The results of this calculation should not be used as the sole basis

for a diagnostic-therapeutic decision. Consultation of an

endocrinological expert is recommended. In most cases the calculated

free and bioavailable testosteorne gives an accurate picture.

However, the values are not reliable in cases of potential

interference with other SHBG binding steroids (e.g. in patients

treated with testosterone preparations which create high DHT levels).

The above said this whole conversation is somewhat a separate issue.

The whole reason for testing for SHBG is that it also affects free E2

levels and this is independent of anything to do with testosterone in

the sense that we should be considering SHBG and its effect as a

multiplier on estrogens- not always look at everything in relation to

T as this is wrong.

High E2 is an issue independently of testosterone.

> >

> > ><snip>

> > >

> > >I have been trying to follow this debate about DIM & Arimidex

> lowering

> > >E2, but it is over my head.

> > >

> > >I though they each just prevented testosterone from being

> converted

> > >into E2, not actually lower E2.

> > >

> > >Did I miss something?

> > >

> > >If they prevent testosterone from being converted into E2 then

the

> > >existing testosterone should be higher, unless it is dumped

> somehow.

> >

> >

> > Yes. Arimidex works by preventing conversion.

> > DIM works by converting E2 to other estrones that can be

metabolized

> > or excreted more readily. The T still converts but E2 does not

build

> > up.

> > -----

> > " Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the

> > power to make you commit atrocities. " - Voltaire

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Never Miss an Email

> Stay connected with on your mobile. Get started!

>

>

[Guest guest]

Then if the labs Free T is better I wonder why Shippen is useing this.

Phil

chis_az <chis_az@...> wrote:

Like I said in one of my prior emails. The theory that low SHBG

results in significantly high free estradiol and that is a problem

irdependently of testosterone is a theory that I came up with way

over a year before it was ever mentioned by Dr . I just never

said this at the time he mentioned it because I wanted to know more

about what he had to say on the matter. In fact I put this very

theory to him many months before he ever mentioned it on the Meso

forum and he had never even though of it being an issue.

Regarding the use of SHBG in calculating free testosterone. The

method you are referring to is known as CT and stems from The

International Society for the Study of the Aging Male (ISSAM) T.Fiers

and J.M. Kaufmann, Department of Endocrinology, Gent University

Hospital, Belgium

If you view the link below you will see that you are able to obtain

your own CT if you have your total testosterone, SHBG and Albumin

levels (click on Interactive: Calculation Free Testosterone).

http://www.get-back-on-

track.com/en/professionals/00_meta/07_praesentationen/p_con_0007_01_03

..php

In all honesty CT is not as accurate a measure of androgen status as

a free testosterone test via equillibriem dialysis which is the gold

standard of testosterone assays. Also you have to remember that CT

is not a measurement of actual free testosterone, rather it is a

calculatred and probable free testosterone level. It is

theoretically what your free testosterone might be. IU can however

be wrong if DHT is high or if estradiol is high.

If your free testosterone assay is reliable then that is a superior

assessment of free testosterone.

On that link I gave you it states this relating to CT;

The results of this calculation should not be used as the sole basis

for a diagnostic-therapeutic decision. Consultation of an

endocrinological expert is recommended. In most cases the calculated

free and bioavailable testosteorne gives an accurate picture.

However, the values are not reliable in cases of potential

interference with other SHBG binding steroids (e.g. in patients

treated with testosterone preparations which create high DHT levels).

The above said this whole conversation is somewhat a separate issue.

The whole reason for testing for SHBG is that it also affects free E2

levels and this is independent of anything to do with testosterone in

the sense that we should be considering SHBG and its effect as a

multiplier on estrogens- not always look at everything in relation to

T as this is wrong.

High E2 is an issue independently of testosterone.

> >

> > ><snip>

> > >

> > >I have been trying to follow this debate about DIM & Arimidex

> lowering

> > >E2, but it is over my head.

> > >

> > >I though they each just prevented testosterone from being

> converted

> > >into E2, not actually lower E2.

> > >

> > >Did I miss something?

> > >

> > >If they prevent testosterone from being converted into E2 then

the

> > >existing testosterone should be higher, unless it is dumped

> somehow.

> >

> >

> > Yes. Arimidex works by preventing conversion.

> > DIM works by converting E2 to other estrones that can be

metabolized

> > or excreted more readily. The T still converts but E2 does not

build

> > up.

> > -----

> > " Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the

> > power to make you commit atrocities. " - Voltaire

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

Phil,

I went to see a Uro some time ago and he use this nanogram to evaluate

things.

My calculated free T way pretty good at the time. I have since increased my

dose. Of course, I felt like shit the day of the blood draw and this guy

proceeded to tell me that I was fine. Very disappointing... I was not on

Arimidex

at the time.

I found a page today from some Endo and it was very interesting on this

topic. The bottom line is that low SHBG points to another problem... there are

other disorders other than Diabetes, thyroid. One of them causes abnormal

growth....too much growth hormone. Sorry, I did the search at lunch and quickly

fired it off to my doc. I will get the link.

Right now my money is on Thyroid, TSH is 4.22, my joints ache and burn when

I exert myself a bit and I do mean a bit. That said, I do not know what to

wish for that is for sure.

Louis

[Guest guest]

It would not surprize me a bit that doctors use these forums to bounce ideas

around and use them to their advantage. Both parties have a vested interest

in understanding the mechanisms that are causing issues in their lives.

I for one, enjoy throwing ideas around and listening to others.

Louis

[Guest guest]

Like I said in the last mail, calculated or FAI free testosterone

estimates can often be inaccurate in men with low SHBG.

If you scan through my last mail you will see a detailed theorectical

example and an actual example of this problem.

>

> Phil,

>

> I went to see a Uro some time ago and he use this nanogram to

evaluate

> things.

>

> My calculated free T way pretty good at the time. I have since

increased my

> dose. Of course, I felt like shit the day of the blood draw and

this guy

> proceeded to tell me that I was fine. Very disappointing... I was

not on Arimidex

> at the time.

>

> I found a page today from some Endo and it was very interesting on

this

> topic. The bottom line is that low SHBG points to another

problem... there are

> other disorders other than Diabetes, thyroid. One of them causes

abnormal

> growth....too much growth hormone. Sorry, I did the search at lunch

and quickly

> fired it off to my doc. I will get the link.

>

> Right now my money is on Thyroid, TSH is 4.22, my joints ache and

burn when

> I exert myself a bit and I do mean a bit. That said, I do not know

what to

> wish for that is for sure.

>

> Louis

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I feel better yet because of my cortisol levels I can't get to much exercise I

get very weak and short of breath with my heart going faster. Hell just to get

up and get a glass of water I feel like this. I have found out if my E2 is high

I have a problem with shortnes of breath. Some are telling me I sould take 5mgs

more of Cortef then try exercising I have yet to try this. I have been charting

my temps for the last yr. and just in the last 16 days they are at 98.5 to 98.7

the best ever so I maybe close to the best dose of armour.

Phil

louislarocque@... wrote:

Phil,

I went to see a Uro some time ago and he use this nanogram to evaluate

things.

My calculated free T way pretty good at the time. I have since increased my

dose. Of course, I felt like shit the day of the blood draw and this guy

proceeded to tell me that I was fine. Very disappointing... I was not on

Arimidex

at the time.

I found a page today from some Endo and it was very interesting on this

topic. The bottom line is that low SHBG points to another problem... there are

other disorders other than Diabetes, thyroid. One of them causes abnormal

growth....too much growth hormone. Sorry, I did the search at lunch and quickly

fired it off to my doc. I will get the link.

Right now my money is on Thyroid, TSH is 4.22, my joints ache and burn when

I exert myself a bit and I do mean a bit. That said, I do not know what to

wish for that is for sure.

Louis