Re: Gels versus Shots

[Guest guest]

I am dam sure what your feeling is high Estradiol and you don't need to feel

like this we all ready know it was high get some Indolplex/DIM and take one

tablet at dinner. And you will start feeling better in days.

http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

When your libido comes back and your feeling better then start watching so you

don't go to low.

Phil

vaiisking1026 <vaiisking@...> wrote:

This is my second week on IM shots. The first week was a 200mg shot,

and then this past Thurs was a 100mg shot. Looking back at my notes, I

think I have felt my happiest on the prior weeks of Androgel 7.5 MG.

Not sure why, because I feel I am high E2 and I know that the gel

supposedly makes E2 higher than shots. But, I've felt absolutely

horrible today, and my notes show that I was happy ( I gauge 1-10 for

happiness ) the last day of Androgel, and haven't reached that level

of happiness yet. I know I need more weeks to get stable...but I hate

having low mood. Just going to keep on charting and posting. My

thinking is foggy, and I feel 'wired' and jittery. This is the 4th day

after the 100mg shot.

God Bless,

Chris

---------------------------------

Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

[Guest guest]

> This is my second week on IM shots. The first week was a

200mg shot,

> and then this past Thurs was a 100mg shot. Looking back at my notes, I

> think I have felt my happiest on the prior weeks of Androgel 7.5 MG.

> Not sure why, because I feel I am high E2 and I know that the gel

> supposedly makes E2 higher than shots. But, I've felt absolutely

> horrible today, and my notes show that I was happy ( I gauge 1-10 for

> happiness ) the last day of Androgel, and haven't reached that level

> of happiness yet. I know I need more weeks to get stable...but I hate

> having low mood. Just going to keep on charting and posting. My

> thinking is foggy, and I feel 'wired' and jittery. This is the 4th day

> after the 100mg shot.

>

> God Bless,

> Chris

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 04:34:03 -0000, you wrote:

>

>As far as gels versus shots, does the daily gel seem to make the E2

>conversion less likely? Makes sense as the gel is a daily lower dose

>and the shot is a spike with a downward hill through the week.

It doesn't seem to work that way. Aromotase the enzyme that converts T

to E2 is found in fat tissue. The gels may absorb locally right into

the lipids. This article compares different TRT methods and their

impact on E2 and DHT.

http://www.endo-society.org/quickcontent/clinicalpractice/clinical-guidelines/up\

load/AndrogensMenGuideline053006.pdf

But it doesn't say anything about gels affecting E2 levels. My

experience was my levels went up on gels. But I was taking two packets

for a time.

________________

" You never need an argument against the use of violence, you need an

argument for it. " Noam Chomsky

[Guest guest]

For me gels drove up my E2 and DHT levels way to high the DIM I told you about

is OTC you should try it when my E2 is to high I had panic attacks in the middle

of the night was on Xanax for yrs. and never got over them started on DIM and

they went away.

Phil

vaiisking1026 <vaiisking@...> wrote:

> This is my second week on IM shots. The first week was a

200mg shot,

> and then this past Thurs was a 100mg shot. Looking back at my notes, I

> think I have felt my happiest on the prior weeks of Androgel 7.5 MG.

> Not sure why, because I feel I am high E2 and I know that the gel

> supposedly makes E2 higher than shots. But, I've felt absolutely

> horrible today, and my notes show that I was happy ( I gauge 1-10 for

> happiness ) the last day of Androgel, and haven't reached that level

> of happiness yet. I know I need more weeks to get stable...but I hate

> having low mood. Just going to keep on charting and posting. My

> thinking is foggy, and I feel 'wired' and jittery. This is the 4th day

> after the 100mg shot.

>

> God Bless,

> Chris

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> This is my second week on IM shots. The first week was a 200mg shot,

> and then this past Thurs was a 100mg shot. Looking back at my notes, I

> think I have felt my happiest on the prior weeks of Androgel 7.5 MG.

> Not sure why, because I feel I am high E2 and I know that the gel

> supposedly makes E2 higher than shots. But, I've felt absolutely

> horrible today, and my notes show that I was happy ( I gauge 1-10 for

> happiness ) the last day of Androgel, and haven't reached that level

> of happiness yet. I know I need more weeks to get stable...but I hate

> having low mood. Just going to keep on charting and posting. My

> thinking is foggy, and I feel 'wired' and jittery. This is the 4th day

> after the 100mg shot.

>

> God Bless,

> Chris

>

It has now been 13 days past the IM 100mg shot, Ive taken another

since then, and no change in feeling. I feel horrible. Almost just as

bad as before I started any TRT. I have not been back to the doctor

yet to test my E2 levels, nor have I ordered the DIM(you suggested

Phil) to see if that would help, because I was trying to let myself

even out a bit, but it is becoming unbearable again. Mental fog is

very high...very jittery...very tired...mood apathetic or worse.

Looking back on my notes, I think I actually feel better the 2nd day

after the shot, and the last day before the shot, and thats all...the

inbetween days seem to be horrible. If you recall, the nurse told me

to do a 1ml shot and the vial says 200/mg 10 uses CYP, so it was

discussed that I should inject 1/2 a ML, or 100mg. I'm very tempted to

get out my bottle of Androgel this Thursday and use it until my next

dr appointment next Wednessday and tell him that the shots don't work

well for me. But the only reason I can think of that they wouldn't

work for me is the E2 conversion. Maybe the high spike is something I

can't tolerate in Testosterone. If so, the gels may be my best solution.

God Bless,

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi you should be doing the T 100mgs shots every 7 days not 14 when we

first talked you said your Dr. put you on shots 1ml of 200mgs/ml of T every week

then we told you this is to much everyweek. Now your doing 100mgs every 14 days

no wonder you don't feel good.

Phil

vaiisking1026 <vaiisking@...> wrote:

>

> This is my second week on IM shots. The first week was a 200mg shot,

> and then this past Thurs was a 100mg shot. Looking back at my notes, I

> think I have felt my happiest on the prior weeks of Androgel 7.5 MG.

> Not sure why, because I feel I am high E2 and I know that the gel

> supposedly makes E2 higher than shots. But, I've felt absolutely

> horrible today, and my notes show that I was happy ( I gauge 1-10 for

> happiness ) the last day of Androgel, and haven't reached that level

> of happiness yet. I know I need more weeks to get stable...but I hate

> having low mood. Just going to keep on charting and posting. My

> thinking is foggy, and I feel 'wired' and jittery. This is the 4th day

> after the 100mg shot.

>

> God Bless,

> Chris

>

It has now been 13 days past the IM 100mg shot, Ive taken another

since then, and no change in feeling. I feel horrible. Almost just as

bad as before I started any TRT. I have not been back to the doctor

yet to test my E2 levels, nor have I ordered the DIM(you suggested

Phil) to see if that would help, because I was trying to let myself

even out a bit, but it is becoming unbearable again. Mental fog is

very high...very jittery...very tired...mood apathetic or worse.

Looking back on my notes, I think I actually feel better the 2nd day

after the shot, and the last day before the shot, and thats all...the

inbetween days seem to be horrible. If you recall, the nurse told me

to do a 1ml shot and the vial says 200/mg 10 uses CYP, so it was

discussed that I should inject 1/2 a ML, or 100mg. I'm very tempted to

get out my bottle of Androgel this Thursday and use it until my next

dr appointment next Wednessday and tell him that the shots don't work

well for me. But the only reason I can think of that they wouldn't

work for me is the E2 conversion. Maybe the high spike is something I

can't tolerate in Testosterone. If so, the gels may be my best solution.

God Bless,

Chris

---------------------------------

Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.

[Guest guest]

> >

> > This is my second week on IM shots. The first week was a 200mg shot,

> > and then this past Thurs was a 100mg shot. Looking back at my notes, I

> > think I have felt my happiest on the prior weeks of Androgel 7.5 MG.

> > Not sure why, because I feel I am high E2 and I know that the gel

> > supposedly makes E2 higher than shots. But, I've felt absolutely

> > horrible today, and my notes show that I was happy ( I gauge 1-10 for

> > happiness ) the last day of Androgel, and haven't reached that level

> > of happiness yet. I know I need more weeks to get stable...but I hate

> > having low mood. Just going to keep on charting and posting. My

> > thinking is foggy, and I feel 'wired' and jittery. This is the 4th day

> > after the 100mg shot.

> >

> > God Bless,

> > Chris

> >

>

> It has now been 13 days past the IM 100mg shot, Ive taken another

> since then, and no change in feeling. I feel horrible. Almost just as

> bad as before I started any TRT. I have not been back to the doctor

> yet to test my E2 levels, nor have I ordered the DIM(you suggested

> Phil) to see if that would help, because I was trying to let myself

> even out a bit, but it is becoming unbearable again. Mental fog is

> very high...very jittery...very tired...mood apathetic or worse.

> Looking back on my notes, I think I actually feel better the 2nd day

> after the shot, and the last day before the shot, and thats all...the

> inbetween days seem to be horrible. If you recall, the nurse told me

> to do a 1ml shot and the vial says 200/mg 10 uses CYP, so it was

> discussed that I should inject 1/2 a ML, or 100mg. I'm very tempted to

> get out my bottle of Androgel this Thursday and use it until my next

> dr appointment next Wednessday and tell him that the shots don't work

> well for me. But the only reason I can think of that they wouldn't

> work for me is the E2 conversion. Maybe the high spike is something I

> can't tolerate in Testosterone. If so, the gels may be my best

solution.

>

> God Bless,

> Chris

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ok I read your post wrong it very well can be your body can't take the spike the

T shot is doing to your Estradiol. And with out taking something for Estradiol

your going to feel bad also it does not matter what kind of TRT your doing you

going to need something to keep Estradiol down.

Phil

vaiisking1026 <vaiisking@...> wrote:

> >

> > This is my second week on IM shots. The first week was a 200mg shot,

> > and then this past Thurs was a 100mg shot. Looking back at my notes, I

> > think I have felt my happiest on the prior weeks of Androgel 7.5 MG.

> > Not sure why, because I feel I am high E2 and I know that the gel

> > supposedly makes E2 higher than shots. But, I've felt absolutely

> > horrible today, and my notes show that I was happy ( I gauge 1-10 for

> > happiness ) the last day of Androgel, and haven't reached that level

> > of happiness yet. I know I need more weeks to get stable...but I hate

> > having low mood. Just going to keep on charting and posting. My

> > thinking is foggy, and I feel 'wired' and jittery. This is the 4th day

> > after the 100mg shot.

> >

> > God Bless,

> > Chris

> >

>

> It has now been 13 days past the IM 100mg shot, Ive taken another

> since then, and no change in feeling. I feel horrible. Almost just as

> bad as before I started any TRT. I have not been back to the doctor

> yet to test my E2 levels, nor have I ordered the DIM(you suggested

> Phil) to see if that would help, because I was trying to let myself

> even out a bit, but it is becoming unbearable again. Mental fog is

> very high...very jittery...very tired...mood apathetic or worse.

> Looking back on my notes, I think I actually feel better the 2nd day

> after the shot, and the last day before the shot, and thats all...the

> inbetween days seem to be horrible. If you recall, the nurse told me

> to do a 1ml shot and the vial says 200/mg 10 uses CYP, so it was

> discussed that I should inject 1/2 a ML, or 100mg. I'm very tempted to

> get out my bottle of Androgel this Thursday and use it until my next

> dr appointment next Wednessday and tell him that the shots don't work

> well for me. But the only reason I can think of that they wouldn't

> work for me is the E2 conversion. Maybe the high spike is something I

> can't tolerate in Testosterone. If so, the gels may be my best

solution.

>

> God Bless,

> Chris

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi chris;

WHY would you want to have injections if you can get androgel or eq? I have a

compounding pharmacist make my 7.5% cream and just rub it on my

stomach--works great!

cheers;

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris-

The dose of 100mg/week of T.cyp is of course not etched in stone. I'm

on 80mg/5-6days and am very happy at that level. If you can arrange the

day of the blood work, I'd suggest having it drawn on the day when you

feel best, which sounds like either day 2 or day 7 in your case. That

way you'll at least have a number to go by. I'd also try next to get a

blood draw on your worst day just to see where that number stands, and

which you don't want. Relative feelings are good to a point, but

there's not many substitutes for a blood test. For graphs, see the

Files section for " the androgen-deficient male.pdf " which charts a

200mg IM testosterone enanthate (similar to cypionate) injection over a

2 week period.

Rich

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Chris-

> The dose of 100mg/week of T.cyp is of course not etched in stone. I'm

> on 80mg/5-6days and am very happy at that level. If you can arrange the

> day of the blood work, I'd suggest having it drawn on the day when you

> feel best, which sounds like either day 2 or day 7 in your case. That

> way you'll at least have a number to go by. I'd also try next to get a

> blood draw on your worst day just to see where that number stands, and

> which you don't want. Relative feelings are good to a point, but

> there's not many substitutes for a blood test. For graphs, see the

> Files section for " the androgen-deficient male.pdf " which charts a

> 200mg IM testosterone enanthate (similar to cypionate) injection over a

> 2 week period.

> Rich

>

This sounds like a good idea. I'd like to point out that prior to the

1/2 ml/week that I started, I was given a 1ml injection by the nurse,

which was 200mg of CYP. The following week, I was in a better mood

that the past 2 weeks of only the 100mg injections. Mind you, it

doesn't seem as if I have felt as well as I did on the Androgel, it

does seem to have been better than the current, 1/2ML/week or 100mgs.

Can anyone think of an explanation for that? I weigh 260 lbs if weight

has any bearing on the dose. Maybe I just need a bigger dose? Or maybe

the 80mg per 5-6 days is the key as well. Maybe I need to treat E2,

which I have already tested high in (44 on a scale of 2-50) TRT is

such a fun game of trial and error ;)I'm willing to keep at it though,

until I find a dose that is right for me. Thanks for all the suggestions,

God Bless,

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 02:19:52 -0000, you wrote:

>Hi Chris-

>The dose of 100mg/week of T.cyp is of course not etched in stone. I'm

>on 80mg/5-6days and am very happy at that level. If you can arrange the

>day of the blood work, I'd suggest having it drawn on the day when you

>feel best, which sounds like either day 2 or day 7 in your case. That

>way you'll at least have a number to go by. I'd also try next to get a

>blood draw on your worst day just to see where that number stands, and

>which you don't want. Relative feelings are good to a point, but

>there's not many substitutes for a blood test. For graphs, see the

>Files section for " the androgen-deficient male.pdf " which charts a

>200mg IM testosterone enanthate (similar to cypionate) injection over a

>2 week period.

>Rich

I found gel lost it's efficacy over time. Thickening skin and hair

growth on the applications perhaps. My T levels steadily dropped from

750 to 400 in a year on 7.5 g of androgel.

Gel is also ridiculously expensive. I'm active outdoors and found gel

a bit of a pain. Rolling out of a sleeping bag when it's 30 degrees

out and thinking of washing off old gel and reapplying new was no fun.

Likewise I swim for exercise and had to always work gel application

into my thinking for when I'd swim, etc. (I also think the chlorine in

frequent swimming may have affected absorbtion rates.) On hot days

exercising resulted in sweating away gel as well.

For me shots are more reliable and much simpler.

________________

" You never need an argument against the use of violence, you need an

argument for it. " Noam Chomsky

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi chris;

> WHY would you want to have injections if you can get androgel or eq?

I have a

> compounding pharmacist make my 7.5% cream and just rub it on my

> stomach--works great!

> cheers;

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris;

First of all, I'm using a water soluble cream with the 7.5% T. It easily rubs

in almost anywhere and I self titrate to make me feel right. I've been out

for several days and I'm stupid as a rock! getting some today.

I've not noticed any decrement of strength with my 60 GM tubes and am

ordering 120G this time. I think it costs me about $1.00+/-/day.

From your description, it sounds like you're getting way too much

in that you only feel decent before it takes effect and after it wears

mostly off. I don't consider doctors to be godlike, they have learned a trade

and

so are as good or bad as any professional--maybe worse in that if a lawyer

screws up, she'll lose cases or be disbarred, a doctor can cruise along as long

as

no one dies under his care. they know about bodies in general but not about

YOUR'S or Mine. We need to tune the treatment to fit US! Doctors often don't

know much about Andropause or male HRT. I gathered scholarly information from

the Internet and then saw the doctor. If he hadn't followed it or showed where I

was wrong, I'd go to another.

..Holliday CHEERS!

> ,

> > In response to the post before yours, how long have you been on the

> > gels and does it seem to keep its potency for you? I don't mind the

> > 'inconvenience' of gels as the ups and downs of the shots is going

> to

> > cost me my job if I can't control it, and the inconvenience then

> will

> > be much greater. The cost difference is about $20 per 5 months for

> > vial or $50 copay per month for the gel as it stands. I am willing

> to

> > pay that for the stability if need be. Honestly, I would pay 90%

> of my

> > paycheck, to any competent doctor that could fix my hormones, per

> > week. The apathetic feelings are horrible. I feel like a zombie at

> > times.

> >

> > Also, I want to point out that this is ending my 3rd week on the

> shot,

> > and this is the night before my shot, and I feel better that the

> > majority of the week at this point. The pattern, it seems, is this:

> > feel good day of shot (don't think absorption of shot has kicked in

> > then) feel good first 3/4 of next day....then next few days seem

> bad

> > and slightly gets better until day before shot when I feel decent

> > again. When I was on gels, I logged every day good, except the one

> day

> > that I finished a tube of gel, so I didn't get the full 6 squirts

> > (7.5mg) and only got about 5ish (4 full squirts and about 3/4 of a

> > 5th). I wish I had a doctor that would test E2 during my cycle,

> which

> > I know is high, I would just like to see how high. When I tested

> prior

> > to TRT, I was at 44 (range 2-50) which everyone agrees here is

> high.

> > So, I can assume that it doesn't get better on TRT, the conversion

> is

> > probably as high or higher. This would account for the reason I

> still

> > have sleep problems and all of my other symptoms...shaky feelings,

> > loss of memory, loss of concentration, apathetic, loss of

> motivation,

> > 50% erections.

> >

> > When I can afford it, I am going to see another doctor who will

> test

> > how they should, but until then, I am at my doctors mercy for the

> > prescriptions he is willing to fill out. When I did bring up E2

> > testing, he said that he didn't see a need to until I showed signs

> of

> > gynocomastia. This is the 4th I've seen here and although they all

> say

> > I'm low T, none will really test and pursue E2 treatment. They

> think

> > that my symptoms are depression related due to having low T, and

> want

> > to give me antidepressants. I agreed at one time and went that

> route

> > only to feel worse and had suicidal feelings/thoughts that seemed

> to

> > come uncontrollably. I hope I can build enough money after the new

> > year to see Dr Marciano and establish a coop between him and a new

> GP

> > that I will have to locate.

> >

> > God Bless,

> > Chris

> >

>

[Guest guest]

If you did feel better on the gels then shouldn't you go back to

them? I have a compounding pharmacy make mine now so I can use a lot

less gel at one time. Gels do work well for me. The area I rub it

into is only about 2-3 inches in diameter compared to practically

both entire arms, as with the Androgel. The compound gels cost me

$30 for 40gm jar. or 3 jars for $85 if I order a 3 month supply. It

isn't hard to measure the amount using a 1cc syringe since mine

comes in a small jar, not a tube. I asked for it to be supplied that

way. I know I'm getting the same dose each time if I measure.

Also. If, in the event that you try gels again, maybe split the dose

into 2 doses a day instead of all at once? I found I felt pretty

lousey by evening after a " few " weeks on a single dose until the

wife suggested I split it into 2. It is not likely that a single

missed dose or short dose would cause physical decline but several

over time would. I would say I saw a major difference at about 3

weeks. Keep that in mind. I miss one, or even 2 doses and it's not a

big deal since gels breakdown and disperse more slowly than orals

for example. The half-life of T isn't terribly short. Been around

drugs long enough to know one missed hormone dose isn't a deal

breaker but, several can be.

I personally Couldn't be happier with the outcome using gels. That

minute it takes to apply and the twice a day thing isn't a big deal.

I work/train often in hot and sweaty conditions as a firefighter.

Once the gel has dried and absorbed, after an hour or so, there is

little to no excretion lost through perspriation. If for whatever

reason I have showered several times in a week before 5 hours have

passed, I apply a dose afterwards. It's all up to how much...or how

little effort a person wants to put into their day when it comes to

gels I suppose. Hope you get things squared away soon.

Good Luck, Lt.

PS: Consider trying 5HTP...PURE or Natrol make a very stable

product. Stuff was a real life saver for me once. From what you

describe, there may be some anxiety/depression adding to your

exsisting low T problems.

In , " vaiisking1026 " <vaiisking@...>

wrote:

>

>

> >

> > Hi chris;

> > WHY would you want to have injections if you can get androgel or

eq?

> I have a

> > compounding pharmacist make my 7.5% cream and just rub it on my

> > stomach--works great!

> > cheers;

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 06:02:04 -0000, you wrote:

>,

>In response to the post before yours, how long have you been on the

>gels and does it seem to keep its potency for you? I don't mind the

>'inconvenience' of gels as the ups and downs of the shots is going to

>cost me my job if I can't control it, and the inconvenience then will

>be much greater. The cost difference is about $20 per 5 months for

>vial or $50 copay per month for the gel as it stands. I am willing to

>pay that for the stability if need be. Honestly, I would pay 90% of my

>paycheck, to any competent doctor that could fix my hormones, per

>week. The apathetic feelings are horrible. I feel like a zombie at

>times.

Have you done the shots on a weekly basis? I don't find a whole lot

of mood and energy swing on weekly. On a two week schedule it was

atrocious.

________________

" You never need an argument against the use of violence, you need an

argument for it. " Noam Chomsky

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 06:02:04 -0000, you wrote:

>When I can afford it, I am going to see another doctor who will test

>how they should, but until then, I am at my doctors mercy for the

>prescriptions he is willing to fill out. When I did bring up E2

>testing, he said that he didn't see a need to until I showed signs of

>gynocomastia. This is the 4th I've seen here and although they all say

>I'm low T, none will really test and pursue E2 treatment.

You need to find some of the articles that mention that E2 outcompetes

T at many receptor sites. And take them Dr. 's discussion of the

impact of E2. The E2/T ratio is important. You need to get that info

in front of him.

One such article on T/E2 ration and ED is here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=Abstra\

ctPlus & list_uids=16839328 & query_hl=6 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

An article on high E2 decreasing cognitive levels:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=Abstra\

ctPlus & list_uids=16865684 & query_hl=9 & itool=pubmed_docsum

" INTERPRETATION: In old men, endogenous testosterone levels are not

associated with risk for cognitive decline and AD (Alzheimers),

whereas higher estrogen levels increase risk for cognitive decline and

AD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=Abstra\

ctPlus & list_uids=16498800 & query_hl=9 & itool=pubmed_docsum

There is also considerable literature on higher E2 levels increasing

prostate size and risk.

________________

" You never need an argument against the use of violence, you need an

argument for it. " Noam Chomsky

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > Hi chris;

> > > WHY would you want to have injections if you can get androgel or

> eq?

> > I have a

> > > compounding pharmacist make my 7.5% cream and just rub it on my

> > > stomach--works great!

> > > cheers;

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

we all ready know your E2 is high and this was high before TRT why won't

you buy some Indolplex/DIM and take one tablet at dinner I am betting you will

feel much better. Adding gels or shot will drive this higher and this is why

you feel like this. You don't need to take my word for this just post asking

how many tried it. It's OTC a supplement made from Veg's. You don't need your

Dr. to test this we can help you not go to low on this.

http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

There is not to many men on TRT that dose not take some thing to keep E2 down

it's not the shot it's the E2 going up from the shot and I feel it goes up more

on gels along with DHT.

Phil

vaiisking1026 <vaiisking@...> wrote:

>

> Hi chris;

> WHY would you want to have injections if you can get androgel or eq?

I have a

> compounding pharmacist make my 7.5% cream and just rub it on my

> stomach--works great!

> cheers;

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I can attest to how well the DIM works, my endo... wouldn't even test my E2

levelst so I had my GP do it and it was borderline high before I started TRT

I have been on TRT for about 3 most and just switched my HCG meds and

crashed, I had all the symptoms of high E2 so I called my endo... and she

just told me to up my Androgel I tried that for a week and it got even worse

so I went and got some DIM and after two day I feel great again, about 80%

of all the symptoms went away and my mood got much better.

On 12/7/06, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

>

> we all ready know your E2 is high and this was high before TRT why

> won't you buy some Indolplex/DIM and take one tablet at dinner I am betting

> you will feel much better. Adding gels or shot will drive this higher and

> this is why you feel like this. You don't need to take my word for this just

> post asking how many tried it. It's OTC a supplement made from Veg's. You

> don't need your Dr. to test this we can help you not go to low on this.

> http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

> There is not to many men on TRT that dose not take some thing to keep E2

> down it's not the shot it's the E2 going up from the shot and I feel it goes

> up more on gels along with DHT.

> Phil

>

> vaiisking1026 <vaiisking@... <vaiisking%40hotmail.com>> wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi chris;

> > WHY would you want to have injections if you can get androgel or eq?

> I have a

> > compounding pharmacist make my 7.5% cream and just rub it on my

> > stomach--works great!

> > cheers;

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Hi chris;

> > WHY would you want to have injections if you can get androgel or eq?

> I have a

> > compounding pharmacist make my 7.5% cream and just rub it on my

> > stomach--works great!

> > cheers;

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Chirs at this stage of the game I would do number 3 you have no Idea how hard

it's been for us here to get Dr.'s to check E2. Most of us did a test through

LEF or added it to are script. And most of us got Indolplex/DIM and helped each

other get it down. As for your restarting you HPTA that was for men that did

steroids I have not found anyone that got it started again that did not do

steriods. If your Pit. is not working right then your on this for life. I am

not sayinig don't try this I did 7 times and it did not come back. Do this get

your levels up and your E2 down and start feeling better then try it. As for

the Testim for 4 days it made you E2 go up it did not shut your LH and FSH down.

Did you have your LH and FSH tested before you did any TRT is so I don't

remember it what was it.

Phil

vaiisking1026 <vaiisking@...> wrote:

> >

> > Hi chris;

> > WHY would you want to have injections if you can get androgel or eq?

> I have a

> > compounding pharmacist make my 7.5% cream and just rub it on my

> > stomach--works great!

> > cheers;

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

This is an article I found a while back maybe it will help..

Study Shows That Arimidex Boosts Testosterone

Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7 (ISSN: 0021-972X)

Mauras N; O'Brien KO; Klein KO; V nmauras@....

We have shown that testosterone (T) deficiency per se is associated with

marked catabolic effects on protein, calcium metabolism, and body

composition in men independent of changes in GH or insulin-like growth

factor I production. It is not clear,,however, whether estrogens have a

major role in whole body anabolism in males. We investigated the metabolic

effects of selective estrogen suppression in the male using a potent

aromatase inhibitor, Arimidex (Anastrozole). First, a dose-response study of

12 males (mean age, 16.1 +/- 0.3 yr) was conducted, and blood withdrawn at

baseline and after 10 days of oral Arimidex given as two different doses

(either 0.5 or 1 mg) in random order with a 14-day washout in between. A

sensitive estradiol (E2) assay showed an approximately 50% decrease in E2

concentrations with either of the two doses; hence, a 1-mg dose was selected

for other studies. Subsequently, eight males (aged 15-22 yr; four adults and

four late pubertal) had isotopic infusions of [(13)C]leucine and

(42)Ca/(44)Ca, indirect calorimetry, dual energy x-ray absorptiometry,

isokinetic dynamometry, and growth factors measurements performed before and

after 10 weeks of daily doses of Arimidex. Contrary to the effects of T

withdrawal, there were no significant changes in body composition (body mass

index, fat mass, and fat-free mass) after estrogen suppression or in rates

of protein synthesis or degradation; carbohydrate, lipid, or protein

oxidation; muscle strength; calcium kinetics; or bone growth factors

concentrations. However, E2 concentrations decreased 48% (P = 0.006), with

no significant change in mean and peak GH concentrations, but with an 18%

decrease in plasma insulin-like growth factor I concentrations. There was a

58% increase in serum T (P = 0.0001), sex hormone-binding globulin did not

change, whereas LH and FSH concentrations increased (P < 0.02, both). Serum

bone markers, osteocalcin and bone alkaline phosphatase concentrations, and

rates of bone calcium deposition and resorption did not change. In

conclusion, these data suggest that in the male 1) estrogens do not

contribute significantly to the changes in body composition and protein

synthesis observed with changing androgen levels; 2) estrogen is a main

regulator of the gonadal-pituitary feedback for the gonadotropin axis; and

3) this level of aromatase inhibition does not negatively impact either

kinetically measured rates of bone calcium turnover or indirect markers of

bone calcium turnover, at least in the short term. Further studies will

provide valuable information on whether timed aromatase inhibition can be

useful in increasing the height potential of pubertal boys with profound

growth retardation without the confounding negative effects of gonadal

androgen suppression

O

[Guest guest]

One more:

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 85, No. 9

3027-3035

Copyright © 2000 by The Endocrine Society

From the Clinical Research Centers

Aromatase Inhibition in the Human Male Reveals a Hypothalamic Site of

Estrogen Feedback1

Frances J. , B. Seminara, Suzzunne DeCruz, A.

Boepple and F. Crowley, Jr.

Reproductive Endocrine Unit of the Department of Medicine and National

Center for Infertility Research, Massachusetts General Hospital,

Boston, Massachusetts 02114

Address correspondence and requests for reprints to: Frances ,

MB, MRCPI, Reproductive Endocrine Unit and National Center for

Infertility Research, Massachusetts General Hospital, Fruit Street,

Boston, Massachusetts 02114. E-mail: hayes.frances@....

Abstract

The preponderance of evidence states that, in adult men, estradiol

(E2) inhibits LH secretion by decreasing pulse amplitude and

responsiveness to GnRH consistent with a pituitary site of action.

However, this conclusion is based on studies that employed

pharmacologic doses of sex

steroids<http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/autolink.php?id=39 & script=showthread & for\

umid=9>,

used nonselective aromatase

inhibitors, and/or were performed in normal (NL) men, a model in which

endogenous counterregulatory adaptations to physiologic perturbations

confound interpretation of the results. In addition, studies in which

estrogen antagonists were administered to NL men demonstrated an

increase in LH pulse frequency, suggesting a potential additional

hypothalamic site of E2 feedback.

To reconcile these conflicting data, we used a selective aromatase

inhibitor, anastrozole, to examine the impact of E2 suppression on the

hypothalamic-pituitary axis in the male. Parallel studies of NL men

and men with idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH), whose

pituitary-gonadal axis had been normalized with long-term GnRH

therapy, were performed to permit precise localization of the site of

E2 feedback. In this so-called tandem model, a hypothalamic site of

action of sex steroids can thus be inferred whenever there is a

difference in the gonadotropin responses of NL and IHH men to

alterations in their sex steroid milieu. A selective GnRH antagonist

was also used to provide a semiquantitative estimate of endogenous

GnRH secretion before and after E2 suppression.

Fourteen NL men and seven IHH men were studied. In Exp 1, nine NL and

seven IHH men received anastrozole (10 mg/day po x 7 days). Blood

samples were drawn daily between 0800 and 1000 h in the NL men and

immediately before a GnRH bolus dose in the IHH men. In Exp 2, blood

was drawn (every 10 min x 12 h) from nine NL men at baseline and on

day 7 of anastrozole. In a subset of five NL men, 5 µg/kg of the

Nal-Glu GnRH antagonist was administered on completion of frequent

blood sampling, then sampling continued every 20 min for a further 8

h.

Anastrozole suppressed E2 equivalently in the NL (136 ± 10 to 52 ± 2

pmol/L, P < 0.005) and IHH men (118 ± 23 to 60 ± 5 pmol/L, P < 0.005).

Testosterone levels rose significantly (P < 0.005), with a mean

increase of 53 ± 6% in NL vs. 56 ± 7% in IHH men. Despite these

similar changes in sex steroids, the increase in gonadotropins was

greater in NL than in IHH men (100 ± 9 vs. 58 ± 6% for LH, P = 0.07;

and 85 ± 6 vs. 41 ± 4% for FSH, P < 0.002). Frequent sampling studies

in the NL men demonstrated that this rise in mean LH levels, after

aromatase blockade, reflected an increase in both LH pulse frequency

(10.2 ± 0.9 to 14.0 ± 1.0 pulses/24 h, P < 0.05) and pulse amplitude

(5.7 ± 0.7 to 8.4 ± 0.7 IU/L, P < 0.001). Percent LH inhibition after

acute GnRH receptor blockade was similar at baseline and after E2

suppression (69.2 ± 2.4 vs. 70 ± 1.9%), suggesting that there was no

change in the quantity of endogenous GnRH secreted.

From these data, we conclude that in the human male, estrogen has dual

sites of negative feedback, acting at the hypothalamus to decrease

GnRH pulse frequency and at the pituitary to decrease responsiveness

to GnRH.

On 12/8/06, Osborne <ozzmed@...> wrote:

>

> This is an article I found a while back maybe it will help..

>

> Study Shows That Arimidex Boosts Testosterone

>

> Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects.

> J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7 (ISSN: 0021-972X)

> Mauras N; O'Brien KO; Klein KO; V nmauras@....

>

> We have shown that testosterone (T) deficiency per se is associated with

> marked catabolic effects on protein, calcium metabolism, and body

> composition in men independent of changes in GH or insulin-like growth

> factor I production. It is not clear,,however, whether estrogens have a

> major role in whole body anabolism in males. We investigated the metabolic

> effects of selective estrogen suppression in the male using a potent

> aromatase inhibitor, Arimidex (Anastrozole). First, a dose-response study of

> 12 males (mean age, 16.1 +/- 0.3 yr) was conducted, and blood withdrawn at

> baseline and after 10 days of oral Arimidex given as two different doses

> (either 0.5 or 1 mg) in random order with a 14-day washout in between. A

> sensitive estradiol (E2) assay showed an approximately 50% decrease in E2

> concentrations with either of the two doses; hence, a 1-mg dose was

> selected for other studies. Subsequently, eight males (aged 15-22 yr; four

> adults and four late pubertal) had isotopic infusions of [(13)C]leucine and

> (42)Ca/(44)Ca, indirect calorimetry, dual energy x-ray absorptiometry,

> isokinetic dynamometry, and growth factors measurements performed before and

> after 10 weeks of daily doses of Arimidex. Contrary to the effects of T

> withdrawal, there were no significant changes in body composition (body mass

> index, fat mass, and fat-free mass) after estrogen suppression or in rates

> of protein synthesis or degradation; carbohydrate, lipid, or protein

> oxidation; muscle strength; calcium kinetics; or bone growth factors

> concentrations. However, E2 concentrations decreased 48% (P = 0.006), with

> no significant change in mean and peak GH concentrations, but with an 18%

> decrease in plasma insulin-like growth factor I concentrations. There was a

> 58% increase in serum T (P = 0.0001), sex hormone-binding globulin did not

> change, whereas LH and FSH concentrations increased (P < 0.02, both).

> Serum bone markers, osteocalcin and bone alkaline phosphatase

> concentrations, and

> rates of bone calcium deposition and resorption did not change. In

> conclusion, these data suggest that in the male 1) estrogens do not

> contribute significantly to the changes in body composition and protein

> synthesis observed with changing androgen levels; 2) estrogen is a main

> regulator of the gonadal-pituitary feedback for the gonadotropin axis; and

> 3) this level of aromatase inhibition does not negatively impact either

> kinetically measured rates of bone calcium turnover or indirect markers of

> bone calcium turnover, at least in the short term. Further studies will

> provide valuable information on whether timed aromatase inhibition can be

> useful in increasing the height potential of pubertal boys with profound

> growth retardation without the confounding negative effects of gonadal

> androgen suppression

>

>

> O

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > Hi chris;

> > > WHY would you want to have injections if you can get androgel or eq?

> > I have a

> > > compounding pharmacist make my 7.5% cream and just rub it on my

> > > stomach--works great!

> > > cheers;

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >